Call the Picks

[e0y2e3]

FWIW: Today's 6/17 NBA Today is really good (OJ followed my rec earlier, as he smelled a chance for more Kanter porn!!!)

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/feeds/rss/ ... id=3634017

[JJN]

NBA Today pod has Chad Ford. At one point Russillo points out that Vala gets backed down underneath the basket by Euro bigs that will never sniff the NBA. I'm very weary of his athletic ability/bulk.

How many 18 year olds aren't going to be backed down by Euro bigs? Kid is barely 19 now, and comes in at 6'11 240, and looks to have plenty of room to add bulk.

And as far as trading up, I'm not sure Williams is worth Hickson plus the #4. Depends on the value that the team sees for JJ going forward, but I don't know that we fill a hole a little bit more (upgrading the 4 spot) when we could fill up another hole (drafting a center and keeping JJ).

Norris Cole at 32 to back up Kyrie.

Because if there is one thing we need, its more point guards, because we are completely set on the wings.

[Orenthal]

There is quite a jump from euro big men who will never sniff the nba, and nba bigmen. Defense being Vala's strength. That worries me.

[OldDawg]

As a matter of fact the TPE needs to be used to aquire picks in this years draft or it becomes uselss. I want players or picks drawn out of it right now.

Eye, I am sure I am missing something here, but with a notably thin draft this year, wouldn't you want picks for next year, which might be deeper? Or can't the TPE be used for next year's picks?

[JJN]

18 yo vs. grown men.

From DX:
"Inside the paint, Valanciunas is a frequent target for opposing teams to post up due to his narrow frame and lack of experience, especially in the Euroleague, where almost every team has a bulky old school back-to-the-basket pivot who can simply overpower Valanciunas in one-on-one situations."

Cavs have a weight room? Only reason I would worry is if they don't, and for far greater reasons than Vala getting backed down.

[JJN]

As a matter of fact the TPE needs to be used to aquire picks in this years draft or it becomes uselss. I want players or picks drawn out of it right now.

Eye, I am sure I am missing something here, but with a notably thin draft this year, wouldn't you want picks for next year, which might be deeper? Or can't the TPE be used for next year's picks?

TPE expires when the new season starts on July 1st IIRC. I think that is what he was getting at.

[daddywags]

Technically, TPE expires July 9th - one year after we acquired it. But since the lockout goes into effect on 7/1, the Cavs have asked the league for an extension to allow the TPE to expire 8 days after the lockout ends. From what I've read, there is very little (read: none) chance that we'll get a ruling on that request before 7/1.

[Orenthal]

18 yo vs. grown men.

From DX:
"Inside the paint, Valanciunas is a frequent target for opposing teams to post up due to his narrow frame and lack of experience, especially in the Euroleague, where almost every team has a bulky old school back-to-the-basket pivot who can simply overpower Valanciunas in one-on-one situations."

Cavs have a weight room? Only reason I would worry is if they don't, and for far greater reasons than Vala getting backed down.

Quick someone tell Andris Biedrins about weight rooms.

What about Kanter and Vala's head to head in Metz? Same age... This issue being fixed just by getting him into a weight room is a hell of a claim. I mean, guy is 6'11" and 240 right now. This isn't Marty Viscious.

[e0y2e3]

Biedrins problem is health more than anything. He's actually fairly good at D.

And if Pau can learn........

Either way trying to differentiate the two is splitting hairs. Gotta have faith in the FO and Gilbert staying out of the decision.

PS: Yeah, Wags nailed my point. Call me crazy but I'm not all that keen on the idea of carrying over a TPE we may or may not be able to use into a period when we don't have the slightest clue how valuable it will be. Can't waste that asset.

[e0y2e3]

Also, Biedrins is the worst FT shooter alive. Vala is not. This is a huge difference. Biedrins is the biggest hack target in the league.

[Orenthal]

9:30ish mark http://espn.go.com/espnradio/player?rd= ... =ESPNRADIO

Come on e0, use whatever name you want, but it isn't as simple as weight room = problem solved. There is plenty of tape on Vala. Abused* at 16, abused* at 18, and abused* in the Euroleague. The first 2 were against the same age group, the second against the dominant centers of Europe. It won't get any easier in the NBA. He is still a project in terms of offense too. There will be no magic wand, and from all accounts guy needs another couple years to develop.

AND

Kanter basically went 30 20 on this bitch yeaaahaw KANTER FANBOI!

*Can't hold ground on defense. Gives as much as he gets against skilled players. It's in the box scores from the Metz U18.

[e0y2e3]

Remember Noah?

Biedrins?

Pau?

I'm not all in on the guy but acting like he has no shot to play D (something he is good at by all measures, even if not strong) is being all fan boi.

And Kanter is yet to show himself even trying to play D against anyone.

Let's not also forget there are a grand total of what, three? Four? centers with actual physical post games right now and none of them made it as far as the conference finals (Noah, Anthony, Perk, Chandler).

[e0y2e3]

And did you actually just drop a link to a pod I linked for you?!

HA

[Orenthal]

All I stated from go is that him not getting pushed around isn't a given, and it flat out isn't. I've owned up to Kanter's issues, perhaps I just put too much weight on their H2H's. Both have serious flaws, one is considered more NBA ready today, one the higher ceiling. Their is a risk involved with that ceiling.

Also while working off my phone I missed plenty of posts. Agree on everyone is up for grabs, that is the flexibility that I think Grant keeps talking about. However in the context of that move to #2, I stand pat. Doesn't mean I'm not taking calls and listening to offers. My comp was limited to that scenario, and I feel we give up too mant assets for Gilberts fantasy.

Its not like this draft #1, #2, cliff. It is IMO #1 cliff, #2 somewhat smaller dropoff, #3, #4 so on.

[Orenthal]

And did you actually just drop a link to a pod I linked for you?!

HA

I only linked it for ease, and since I called out a specific point in the pod. Let's just say I posted it for context, cause, obviously I gave you credit* for finding it and bringing it to my attention upthread. (Plus sometimes people dont click stuff unless you spoon-feed them the relavent part.)

*'least thought I did...

[daddywags]

9:30ish mark http://espn.go.com/espnradio/player?rd= ... =ESPNRADIO

Come on e0, use whatever name you want, but it isn't as simple as weight room = problem solved. There is plenty of tape on Vala. Abused* at 16, abused* at 18, and abused* in the Euroleague. The first 2 were against the same age group, the second against the dominant centers of Europe. It won't get any easier in the NBA. He is still a project in terms of offense too. There will be no magic wand, and from all accounts guy needs another couple years to develop.

AND

Kanter basically went 30 20 on this bitch yeaaahaw KANTER FANBOI!

*Can't hold ground on defense. Gives as much as he gets against skilled players. It's in the box scores from the Metz U18.

I looked at the stats for that entire U18 tournament and Vala's numbers overall weren't that far off of Kanter's. They were by far the two best big men in that tournament. As for the head-to-head matchups, the thing that struck me was that Kanter took at least two times as many shots as Jonas did. Suggests to me a volume scorer and a guy who expects to be a first option on his team (as he was in those games). Vala didn't need that, or wasn't asked to do that. How comfortable will Kanter be on an NBA team where he's third option and getting 10-11 shots per game?

[Orenthal]

^10+ vs 16+ on the glass?

[Orenthal]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... aft_061711

[daddywags]

^10+ vs 16+ on the glass?

Damn. Now you're going to make me do the work to look it up again.

Got a link?

[Orenthal]

I only have my phone Wags. Yer right on the points and shots as I was focused mostly on the h2h. Vala did explode for 37 one game. Ive aways searched fiba U18 metz.

The rebound stats are tourney per game totals. Ill try to copy and paste tomorrow. Vala FG% is silly. Wish I had film.

[OldDawg]

Looking at the consensus top ot the draft:
1) Irving
2) Williams
3) Knight
4) Kanter
5) Valanciunas
6) Walker
7) Vesely
8) Leonard
9) Biyombo
10) Burks or Morris

Where would you see these guys inserting themselves in this mix had they been in the draft? Particularly where the Cavs pick at 1 and 4.
Harrison Barnes
Perry Jones
Jared Sullinger
Tyler Zeller
John Henson
Will Barton
Barnes and Jones would shake things up. How do you guys like their games compared to Williams, Kanter and the other euro bigs.

Not sold on Sullinger's game translating to the NBA.

[e0y2e3]

Barnes is considered by Ford a potential tier one player. He would have absolutely made it into the top three and is the only guy that may have challenged Kyrie.

Jones sucked last year and would have been a top ten pick just on potential.

And Kanter and Vala are pretty much both #4.

[JJN]

Jimmy Butler's story
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2011 ... ler-110618

I wanted this kid before I read the story, really want him now. He may never be a star, but he's been impressing everone by all accounts, and he definitely fits a need.

Barnes may have beat Kyrie based on amount of game tape, or lost out to him because he started slow while Kyrie played well whenever he was in. Hard to say, but I wouldn't be shocked to see him go #1 next year. Not sure where P Jones would go. I think Sullinger's game might translate well, especially if he comes up a little bigger than we think he is.

As far as Kanter v. Vala, both have holes in their games, both are a gamble. Forget who Ford quoted, but "if everyone is a gamble, then their is no risk." (at least relatively) I'll be happy woth either one, and I'm trusting the FO to do their due dillegence.

[OldDawg]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2011 ... n-5-110617

This link has five guys picking the first 5 picks. Four of them have us taking Kanter or Vala at 4 and one has us taking Vesely. However, three of them have Kanter possibly going before we pick.

[OldDawg]

Barnes is considered by Ford a potential tier one player. He would have absolutely made it into the top three and is the only guy that may have challenged Kyrie.

Barnes is considered much better than Williams?

So the picks might have gone:
1) Kyrie
2) Barnes
3) Williams
4) No change for us. Still a euro big.

Unless we went:
1) Barnes (listed as a 6'8 SF)
2) Kyrie
3) Williams
4) Knight or Kanter

I know its a moot point. Just playing around. Don't see Sullinger being an option at 4, personally.

[e0y2e3]

If Davis lives up to the hype he'll go #1 next year.

And Sullinger isn't even worth discussing.

[Orenthal]

http://blogs.courier-journal.com/rickbo ... luate-him/

Answers about Kanter from the ESPN CC. He played Euro League games at 16...

[e0y2e3]

http://blogs.courier-journal.com/rickbozich/2011/06/17/kanter-how-does-nba-evaluate-him/

Answers about Kanter from the ESPN CC. He played Euro League games at 16...

^ starting to frighten me fanboi

Care to clarify how much he actually played and against what competition or are you just going to leave that fallacious statement laying out there?

By all accounts his biggest competition came in the U18 league and again, that was 2 years ago.

Stop Googling Kanter Every Hour.

[Orenthal]

<-Was the same last year with Cousins... This year we happen to have the ability to make the pick. Come draft day, I'm fanboi of whoever we wind up picking, but does give me yet another reason to get NBA League Pass.

[daddywags]

http://blogs.courier-journal.com/rickbozich/2011/06/17/kanter-how-does-nba-evaluate-him/

Answers about Kanter from the ESPN CC. He played Euro League games at 16...

Played on the same team with Semih Erden, didn't he?

[OldDawg]

I'm waiting for OJ to tell us Kanter was on his 4th grade all-star team.

I was just looking back through the previous few years' drafts. Kinda depressing seeing how many high picks are busts or don't ever look up to the hype. Hope we are smart and lucky.

Last year's all-rookie team and where they were drafted:
First Team
Player, Team 1st 2nd Tot
Blake Griffin, L.A. Clippers 29 - 58 (drafted #1 in 2009)
John Wall, Washington 28 1 57 (drafted #1 in 2010)
Landry Fields, New York 28 - 56 (drafted #39 in 2010)
DeMarcus Cousins, Sacramento 26 2 54 (drafted #5 in 2010)
Gary Neal, San Antonio 18 8 44 (undrafted)

Second Team
Player, Team 1st 2nd Tot
Greg Monroe, Detroit 13 16 42 (drafted #7 in 2010)
Wesley Johnson, Minnesota 4 18 26 (drafted #4 in 2010)
Eric Bledsoe, L.A. Clippers - 19 19 (drafted #18 in 2010)
Derrick Favors, Utah 1 16 18 (drafted #3 in 2010)
Paul George, Indiana 1 12 12 (drafted #10 in 2010)

[daddywags]

I don't know, seems like 4 of the top 5 and 5 of the top 7 made either first or second team all-rookie. Those aren't bad odds with 1 and 4, IMO. Better nail them.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Stating the obvious:

sportsguy33 Bill Simmons
I think Cavs are pretending they might not take Irving to mess with Minny's trade options. Nobody will trade for #2 w/o knowing who's there.

[e0y2e3]

I think Simmons hasn't been reading anything for the last few months and has missed the fifty different sources dropping that Gilbert is in love with D-Will II and the FO loves Irving since before the lottery.

[StewieG]

Stating the obvious:

sportsguy33 Bill Simmons
I think Cavs are pretending they might not take Irving to mess with Minny's trade options. Nobody will trade for #2 w/o knowing who's there.

That better be all this crap is. If anyone other than Irving's name is called, I'm going to melt. It will be spectacular. Passing up a potential all-star PG for a guy without a position is beyond stupid.

[e0y2e3]

It's less about D-Will being without a position to me and more so that he is somewhere between Michael Beasley and a JJ Hickson as a prospect. A better scoring version of JJ and a lower ceiling than a sober Beasley. That player isn't a franchise definer. Especially when you'll end up w/ Ramon Sessions as the PG running things for him.

[StewieG]

That too. And that doesn't even take into account that next year's draft is really weak on PG's and C's, and ridiculously deep on the wings, with the best player at PF. Williams makes zero sense with the first pick.

I swear if I have to watch another year of Sessions ignoring open teammates and trying to lay the ball in against 3 defenders, I'm going to snap.

[Kingpin74]

Stating the obvious:


sportsguy33 Bill Simmons
I think Cavs are pretending they might not take Irving to mess with Minny's trade options. Nobody will trade for #2 w/o knowing who's there.

He's not making much sense there. Wouldn't the potential for Irving to drop to 2 drive the price for the pick way up? I suppose if you wanted someone to make a deal with Minny contingent on Irving dropping and then leaving Minny scrambling when that doesn't happen, it's a decent strategy. But I wouldn't count on most NBA GM's thinking that much into it.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Stating the obvious:


sportsguy33 Bill Simmons
I think Cavs are pretending they might not take Irving to mess with Minny's trade options. Nobody will trade for #2 w/o knowing who's there.

He's not making much sense there. Wouldn't the potential for Irving to drop to 2 drive the price for the pick way up? I suppose if you wanted someone to make a deal with Minny contingent on Irving dropping and then leaving Minny scrambling when that doesn't happen, it's a decent strategy. But I wouldn't count on most NBA GM's thinking that much into it.

If you were dealing with a competent GM with the #2 pick, sure. When you're dealing with David Kahn, I can't see any downside into turning their war room into a Chinese fire drill.

[e0y2e3]

Chad Ford on "The Really Big Show" (whatever that is) right now.

[OldDawg]

Trade down from 1?

I know the love-fest for Irving around here. I have it too. We also know that Minny has no pressing "need" for DWilliams. And we fear TMLPs love of DWill.

What could Minny give you to make you switch picks #1 and #2 with them?

So instead of, say, Irving and Kanter, we get DWilliams, Knight and what else Minny could throw our way. What does Minny have to make you make that switch? I am sure it is way more complicated than I think.

I mean there is a faction (minority) around that think DWill + Knight > Irving + Kanter anyways.

Now if its DWill + Knight + ??? > Irving + Kanter.

Just thinking out loud.

[e0y2e3]

I cannot take any post or person seriously the suggests Williams and Knight are better than Irving and Kanter.

I also have no idea why you think Minny, who is desperately trying to trade back for a young vet would even contemplate trading up for a PG w/ Rubio on his way to the states and Ridnour and Flynn already on the roster.

Brandon Knight is not a PG. He is a volume shooting scorer. D-Will is a better scoring JJ. Great.

A bunch of volume shooters.

Sick.

[OldDawg]

Firstly, I am not one who thinks DWill + Knight > Irving + Kanter. But there are those that do. I have not studied DWill's game like many of you, but would be enticed with him as a stretch 4. My problem is 4 is the Cavs area of least need.

Heck, I heard a draft "expert" last night suggest on tv that the Cavs should take Irving and Knight. I think that is even more of a stretch.

Secondly, the Rubio scenario had slipped my mind with Minny. That thing yo-yoed for a while there. Remains to be seen how good he will be, though.

Brandon Knight as a PG? Time will tell. I remember when the Cavs drafted Kevin Johnson because they weren't sure Mark Price could be an NBA point guard. We know how the Price story turned out. But I also remember people complaining that KJ was not a pure PG in college either when we drafted him. And that it was a risky pick as a PG conversion. Mark Price emerges the next year and then the Cavs aren't sure how good KJ will be as a PG and we trade him to PHO. KJ ends up with a career 19ppg / 9apg stat line as a PG. I'll take that.

I guess the thought that triggered my original trade supposition with Minny was the Kahn's whining that they didn't get the #1 pick on lottery night. So in my mind, he really coveted that pick and might do something stupid to get it. But it appears you may be right, that Kahn doesn't really want the #1 or #2 pick for the pick itself.

I guess I am most anxious about what ELSE the Cavs are going to do on draft night. I am certainly anxious about the #4 pick (not so much about the #1, unless TMLP gets too involved), but its what other moves we make.

Also a little concerned about who might trade up to #3 to possibly snag Kanter.

[e0y2e3]

The Cavs have equal need at every position and frankly in the NBA when starting a 5 year rebuild you cannot draft for need. BPA, BPA, BPA. The only time that comes into question is when you have multiple early picks, duplicating positions would make you as stupid as Kahn.

And Knight is not just a scorer, he is a chucker with an abysmal turnover rate.

I highly doubt this draft expert you heard mention Knight and Irving was actually a draft expert.

IMO, Knight's upside is Jamal Crawford.

Regardless, Kahn put all of his eggs in the Rubio basket and no matter how good he is going to be that team will not be aquiring another PG. Even if they are forced to take Irving rest assured he would be dealt shortly thereafter.

[Orenthal]

Chad Ford on "The Really Big Show" (whatever that is) right now.

FEH! That is Rizzo's show here in Cleveland that was at one point interesting, but jumped the shark over a year ago. Rizzo is more in love with Williams then Gilbert. Nothing new in this interview. Irving the best of a weak top of class, Williams slow at 3 short at 4 risk, Kanter looks great when you see him but all based on super small sample size... blah blah.

I'm well past the point of draft overload in the absence of new info.

[e0y2e3]

It's okay OJ, you still have your Kanter Youtube clips.

[Orenthal]

^The other 2 hosts on TRBS are such Kanter honks I got my fill today!

[OldDawg]

I highly doubt this draft expert you heard mention Knight and Irving was actually a draft expert.

I think it was Sam Amico on Channel 5 News last night. I don't think he was saying it was going to happen, but that it is a possibility. I don't think it is a possibility.

[Orenthal]

lol, e0 Amico implosion upcoming.

[e0y2e3]

Yep. Not an expert. Not even a guy with a clue.

Amico is the single biggest joke NBA fuck alive and should be banned from pretending to have sources.

I've proven and caught him blatently making up lies and claiming he had sources reporting things roughly two dozen times.

You lost brain cells for listening to that lying fuck.

I'm going to start another Twitter account just to call him stupid since he blocked me for calling him on lies before.

Of course he then went on Facebook and tried to find me but instead found a friend and sent them a threatening message on Facebook. The guy can't stand being proven wrong and is a melty twat-waffle.

That man should pay people to read him, not vice versa.

Lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies