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Call the Picks

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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 23, 2011 11:49 pm

I'm amazed you are too stupid to realize that the key to sucking is getting rid of those three players, no matter what. Go away.

And JJN it looks more like we are looking at Kanter - Vala or maybe Bismack. Vesley is also lurking.

Everything I have read has mentioned those four and I don't think anyone thinks Williams will fall.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Mon May 23, 2011 11:49 pm

Did you have a chance to find that +per stat that you gave? Or did you mean EWA?
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby JJN » Tue May 24, 2011 12:18 am

Sorry, got caught up watching OKC blow it. Its at 82games.com.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MEM13.HTM

PER - Opponent Counterpart PER.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue May 24, 2011 12:37 am

ajunior148 wrote:
So nothing that has any relevance at all to our discussion, then? Just things that would be just as likely whether we had Gay or #4, but you agree that Gay will be better than #4 next season so we're more likely to have a lower pick with Gay?


Just so I understand your argument. Are you suggesting that we wouldn't want Gay because he is too good of a player? And you'd rather have a higher draft pick?

How much lower in the draft do you think the Cavs are picking if Gay was wearing the Wine and Gold next year?

The problem as I see it. You are arguing on one hand that Rudy Gay isn't a great player an he hasn't improved in the lat 3 years and his salary is too high. On the other hand you are arguing that if the Cavs have Rudy Gay next year they won't have as good of a draft pick which is the most important thing.

These things seem to be contradictory.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby JJN » Tue May 24, 2011 1:10 am

I think I saw or heard one mock with Kanter going 2 and Knight going 3. I don't think its very likely, but this is going to be a strange draft. I'm far less anti-Kanter than I was before the Combine. Now that we can be sure he has legit C size and is actually a better athlete than he was given credit for, I'm less leery. Vesely scares the crap out of me. 44%FT *shudders*
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby StewieG » Tue May 24, 2011 8:15 am

Vesely scares the shit out of me. He's gonna bust. If we took Vala, I might be able to talk myself into it, but I'd much rather have Williams, Kanter, or Biyombo. At least one of those three will be there when we pick.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 24, 2011 8:44 am

motherscratcher wrote:
ajunior148 wrote:
So nothing that has any relevance at all to our discussion, then? Just things that would be just as likely whether we had Gay or #4, but you agree that Gay will be better than #4 next season so we're more likely to have a lower pick with Gay?


Just so I understand your argument. Are you suggesting that we wouldn't want Gay because he is too good of a player? And you'd rather have a higher draft pick?

How much lower in the draft do you think the Cavs are picking if Gay was wearing the Wine and Gold next year?

The problem as I see it. You are arguing on one hand that Rudy Gay isn't a great player an he hasn't improved in the lat 3 years and his salary is too high. On the other hand you are arguing that if the Cavs have Rudy Gay next year they won't have as good of a draft pick which is the most important thing.

These things seem to be contradictory.



I am arguing that he is too good right now for the circumstance we are in. Say, for example, the Magic had the 4th pick and could make this deal. It would make much more sense.

I am arguing that he isn't a great player (e0 agrees with this, JJN sees him making a pretty big leap) and that he won't develop into a great player. My reasoning for thinking that? In his second year he was considered a top prospect. In his third year, he did not get any better but developed some bad habits. In his 4th year, he continued to flat line and continued his bad habits. In his 5th year, he stopped bad habits and improved his 3% by about 5% because of this. But ultimately one could not look at his career and see him making a jump to a legit number one.

And yes, I do think that adding Gay with Irving would make us not a bottom 5 team, which is where I want to be next year. It will not be as easy as e0 thinks to unload both Jamo and Baron with their contracts. JJ has improved. We may keep Andy.

Just look at how much better we were by adding Baron to our roster. We didn't have Andy or Jamison then. Why wouldn't Gay have the same impact as Baron, or better? Then you add in Irving, and all of a sudden we could be picking 8th.

We'd still have a shot a franchise guy, but our odds are way worse. All for a 25 year old second best player on a decent team that is due $17 mill per for the next 4 years.

I say keep the 4th, try to develop a Euro big and Irving and hope for a top 5 pick next season. Acquire talent at the same age and let them grow together.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 24, 2011 8:46 am

StewieG wrote:Vesely scares the shit out of me. He's gonna bust.


I agree, I wouldn't touch that guy until the teens.

I'm on the JonVal bandwagon, but I wouldn't be upset with Kanter or Bis.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue May 24, 2011 10:39 am

@ajunior - Yeah, but if we keep AV, Jamo, and Baron we ALREADY are not a bottom 5 team, regardless of whether we use the #4 for Kantor or turn it into Gay. So why not get the better player, and it seems obvious that Gay is better than anyone available at #4?

If we are able to unload those guys this year, we will be picking high in the lottery anyway.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Gay is a "legit #1". But he's pretty damn good. And it doesn't matter anyway because we aren't getting a legit #1 with the pick.

He's young and he's good. I want young and good.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 24, 2011 11:19 am

Windhorst reporting that the Cavs are more likely than not to trade the 4th and the TPE together in a trade.

He also mentioned Iggy.

If the Cavs trade for Iggy I may be done with the team. We can argue about a 25 year old who changed a ton as a player last year (well, everyone but AJ gets this because AJ doesn’t watch basketball) but trading for Iggy at this point would signify that not only does Gilbert not get it, he’s not even good at not getting it.

Seriously, trading for Iggy on this team is beyond blasphemous. I don’t even have words.

Between this and rumors of Vala, a 7 footer with no discernable skill beyond trying hard being atop our draft board at 4 I’m not very thrilled with this org.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue May 24, 2011 1:37 pm

Windhorst reporting that the Cavs are more likely than not to trade the 4th and the TPE together in a trade.


Translation: Kanter had better like Salt Lake City.

Can't say if Iggy rumors are for real, ghosts, or 'we're crazy enough to do this so if you want in on some TPE and #4 pick action start calling Dunphy now'.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 24, 2011 1:40 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:We can argue about a 25 year old who changed a ton as a player last year (well, everyone but AJ gets this because AJ doesn’t watch basketball)


You have multiple people (that you seem to respect for the most part) telling you that they wouldn't do the deal, yet you are too stubborn to say anything other than it is a no brainer.

You have 3 posts in an hour time period last night that contradict each other just because you are too sensitive to listen to another view point. You'll say whatever it takes to keep the Madre Hill's of the world offering gifts at your alter. You're not Dr. Jack Ramsey, stop acting like it, it doesn't suit you well.

This is just like last offseason when the Bucks added Maggette and Gooden and people were loving it here, and I came in and said it was dumb, their players were being overrated, and they'd regret it. You compared Jennings' rookie season to MJ's and Grant Hill's and 12 months later here we are. If the role's were reversed you'd be bringing up how dumb that take was. Because it was really, really dumb, e0.

I know for a fact of a poster that doesn't deal with you that you speak highly of, and he thinks I should stop as well. I probably should, but I always give you the benefit of the doubt.

Get over it. A PER increase of .55 from a second season to a fifth is not significant improvement. A 5% increase in 3's is nice, but considering that is it makes it not very impressive. He is a pseudo franchise player, and you want to give up the 4th pick, cap space, and possibly hurt our future draft position to do so. An objective person could see how one could disagree with this.

You were wrong on how good the Bucks would be. You were wrong in thinking that we could flip Wally for a Pau or Rasheed. Typing in caps and demeaning people will keep MH impressed, but there are smarter posters out there that see it for what it is. Get over yourself.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 24, 2011 1:49 pm

Do I need to go bump the Bucks thread *I never once directly said Jennings was MJ or Grant Hill* you disengenous little fuck.

Or do I need to link to Pelton's analysis of lost starters minutes to injuries this year and how The Bucks lost almost 2x as many starters and rotation players to injury than any other team?

PS: Madre disagrees with me more times than not

PPS: Not my fault you are too dumb to get my points from last night

PPPS: MYoung and I had a great conversation on Gay because he brings up actual points (which I countered with actual points!!!). Neither of us won the conversation because neither of us needed to. However you haven't even accidentally managed to make a valid point that was involved in that discussion. Instead you keep trotting in here and talking out your asshole and making wild declarations.

PPPPS: Had Gilbert been willing to eat money and offered Wally instead of Wallace for Shaq he could have had him a full half season before he got him to lay one Dewey which very well could have won the Cavs a title!!!!!!!!!!

RUDY GAY STOPS YOU FROM TANKING!!!!!

RUDY GAY HAS NOT IMPROVED IN THREE... ER FOUR YEARS!!!@$!!!

PER!@$!$!

Seriously, fuck yourself and walk away from the keyboard.

You have one pseudo point that involves a huge amount of assumptions and you continue to ignore the fact that the team as currently constructed is going to struggle to tank in the first place.

But hey... ANALYSIS!!!
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue May 24, 2011 1:53 pm

ajunior148 wrote:Get over yourself.


I don't know if it's that so much as just a need to tone down the aggression a bit sometimes.

e0 does a fine job of arguing his points without reaching for the bazooka. But I'll be damned if he doesn't love that MF'ing bazooka.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 24, 2011 1:54 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:PPS: Not my fault you are too dumb to get my points from last night


Well there it is. You have the last word on the subject, we'll leave it at that.

I'm sure we'll go through something similar to this in ~12 months. Looking forward to it.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 24, 2011 1:54 pm

Honestly, why can't you just admit you have not watched Rudy Gay play and you did not follow him at all last year so you have no idea if he was better or not?

Would that fucking kill you?

I have to win?

You're continuing to parade out a falehood because you are a lying little fuck that is on some bender to try and prove a point for no real reason.

And if another poster has an issue with me they can approach me. I don't really give a fuck about bitchy back channel conversations beying relayed. You pranced in here and talked out your asshole, admit it and we can move on or don't and I'll keep coming at you.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 24, 2011 2:04 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:You pranced in here and talked out your asshole, admit it and we can move on or don't and I'll keep coming at you.


It's posts like these e0 that make you unreadable at times. Come at me? It's a flipping message board, what are you talking about? You are taking this way too seriously. "Come at me", e0. You're wasting your time.

And I'm not trying to "win". You're the only person I have ever had a discussion like this on the internet. You "come at me" when I don't even direct my post to you.

I don't agree that Gay has made significant improvement in the past 4 years. Go back to the post where I said 3. You'll notice I said "like 3". Christ, you get caught up on something so minor and don't let it go. Anyone with a brain can see his career flat lined starting in year 2. I didn't go to his page and see how long he's been in the league.

The point being, he isn't getting better now, and he isn't good enough to justify the cost IN MY OPINION.

I've watched the guy play, but I don't DVR every Memphis game. You have me there.

So you've won.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 24, 2011 2:33 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
ajunior148 wrote:Get over yourself.


I don't know if it's that so much as just a need to tone down the aggression a bit sometimes.

e0 does a fine job of arguing his points without reaching for the bazooka. But I'll be damned if he doesn't love that MF'ing bazooka.


I appreciate the olive branch in the discussion, but tell me who else would get away with how he contradicts himself to win arguments?

He literally said last night at 9:25 PM that next years draft is loaded. Then he "came at me" at 9:58 PM for projecting that next years draft is good. Then at 10:08 PM he used the draft being loaded next year in an argument against me.

I mean, that's as dishonest as it gets. How can someone read that and then think he is being objective with anything else? He'll kill a guy for much less, yet he gets a pass. It's terrible.

Why does he try to "win" every argument anyway? Some of us come to boards to break up the monotony of the work day. Not play internet demigod.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue May 24, 2011 2:46 pm

Any other word out there in the interwebz about guys the Cavs may be targeting with #4 and the TPE? Curious to see if there's a right fit kind of guy out there.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 24, 2011 2:54 pm

Rumor is we're interested in Iggy, but not included with #4.

Even so, that would be a bad deal for us.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 24, 2011 3:35 pm

I'm not playing internet tough guy special ed student AJ, but if you want to punt and drop more Red Herrings, be my guest.

HOW MANY GAMES DID YOU WATCH RUDY GAY PLAY LAST YEAR?

HOW MANY GAMES FOUR YEARS AGO?

This is simple to answer, because you are running around in here promoting an absolute falsehood that everyone and their mother understands in a falsehood.

Stop doing that or admit you are talking out your ass. It's really not hard to do. I commend you for working two jobs and taking the time to watch the Memphis...er wait you didn't?

And if you are still too stupid to understand that a lot of very talented players does not mean an LBJ is in a draft class you really should just fucking join the FUDU and Rat Tail pile of internet retards that read at the level of a six year old.

You are the one trying to win an argument about a complete and utter falsehood. Put down the keyboard or keep melting red herrings all over the internet. Either way you're embarassing yourself.

You can hold that PER comp all you want, really you can, it doesn't prove a single fucking thing.

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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 24, 2011 3:37 pm

And no, you come in and act like a Water Cooler poster that posts complete and utter falsehoods you are going to get called out.

Follow what you are talking about or STFU.

All you had to do was point out and ask about Rudy Gay as a player last year versus the rest of his career, instead you chose to build an argument out of bullshit and pretend like you are correct when literally no one on earth that actually follows the sport would agree with you.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 24, 2011 3:50 pm

To be honest, e0, I haven't even watched a basketball game since Bobby Phills was alive.

I couldn't even tell you what Rudy Gay looks like right now. Tall and black?
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 24, 2011 3:54 pm

Fair enough. Your Jihad to expose me has been a success, you're so devious and awesome AJ!!!

So glad you have that super awesome ability to come into a thread and just say whatever pops into your mind after a whole 30 seconds of thought and prove me wrong by comparing 4 year apart PERs and back it up with evidence collected from watching the player play and following his season!!!!

Effin genius is what you are!!!!!

Fallen further as a poster than most anyone I can remember. A fine testament to the death of people thinking before posting for certain.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue May 24, 2011 3:58 pm

Honestly I've never been called disingenious before, and you dropped it like 3 times (disclaimer: saying like 3 times means it could be 2 or 4, much like Rudy Gay seasons). That made the thread for me.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Ziner » Wed May 25, 2011 10:40 am

Just an FYI, but I heard yesterday that Grant is going to be on Rome today.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 25, 2011 12:43 pm

^Is true. 1pm.

Baron Davis, Daniel Gibson, Ramon Sessions, Manny Harris, Christian Eyenga, Semih Erden, Luke Harangody, Alonzo Gee, JJ Hicksion, Ryan Hollins, and Samardo Samuels (even he got hurt at the end) went 6-6 to end the season. Add Gay, Jamo, Andy and Irving, and that team very possibly is late lottery.

Being able to unload guys into a new CBA is an unknown. What becomes of the #4 and the TPE is an unknown opportunity cost. I like AJ prefer to mass the picks and let them develop. I prefer making this type of move later in the rebuilding cycle.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby swerb » Wed May 25, 2011 12:46 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Windhorst reporting that the Cavs are more likely than not to trade the 4th and the TPE together in a trade.

He also mentioned Iggy.

If the Cavs trade for Iggy I may be done with the team. We can argue about a 25 year old who changed a ton as a player last year (well, everyone but AJ gets this because AJ doesn’t watch basketball) but trading for Iggy at this point would signify that not only does Gilbert not get it, he’s not even good at not getting it.

Seriously, trading for Iggy on this team is beyond blasphemous. I don’t even have words.

Between this and rumors of Vala, a 7 footer with no discernable skill beyond trying hard being atop our draft board at 4 I’m not very thrilled with this org.

Dan Gilbert doesn't have the patience for a Seattle Sonics/Oklahoma City five year rebuild. I guarantee he makes a trade like that, or trades to get the #2 pick this off-season. And that Chris Grant is nothing but a puppet. Which is why The Balded One is back in SA.

When the Heat win it all in a three weeks, the odds of this happening go from like 90 to 95%.

The right way to rebuild a NBA team has been laid out in this thread by several people. TMLP ... in his efforts to fill the arena, fill his casino, grandstand to a fan base that wants results now, and satisfy his short man syndrome cravings ... will look for shortcuts.

The 2011 Indians are now proving that Clevelanders will ALWAYS fill arenas and stadiums if you give them a product worthy of watching.

GWhat TLMP needs to do is channel the first Bush. Stay the course, 1000 points of light.

He will be unable.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby JJN » Wed May 25, 2011 1:12 pm

Is it too much to hope that TMLP has been picking up some smokescreen pointers from the Walrus?
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 25, 2011 1:12 pm

"Open to moving 4." Also mentioned TPE bringing on $14.5 million player with nothing going back. Always looking to add flexibility even when we had LeBron.

He wouldn't touch, "How much has LeBron grown in the last 2 months?"

Yeah, nothing at all.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby pup » Wed May 25, 2011 1:16 pm

swerb wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Windhorst reporting that the Cavs are more likely than not to trade the 4th and the TPE together in a trade.

He also mentioned Iggy.

If the Cavs trade for Iggy I may be done with the team. We can argue about a 25 year old who changed a ton as a player last year (well, everyone but AJ gets this because AJ doesn’t watch basketball) but trading for Iggy at this point would signify that not only does Gilbert not get it, he’s not even good at not getting it.

Seriously, trading for Iggy on this team is beyond blasphemous. I don’t even have words.

Between this and rumors of Vala, a 7 footer with no discernable skill beyond trying hard being atop our draft board at 4 I’m not very thrilled with this org.

Dan Gilbert doesn't have the patience for a Seattle Sonics/Oklahoma City five year rebuild. I guarantee he makes a trade like that, or trades to get the #2 pick this off-season. And that Chris Grant is nothing but a puppet. Which is why The Balded One is back in SA.

When the Heat win it all in a three weeks, the odds of this happening go from like 90 to 95%.

The right way to rebuild a NBA team has been laid out in this thread by several people. TMLP ... in his efforts to fill the arena, fill his casino, grandstand to a fan base that wants results now, and satisfy his short man syndrome cravings ... will look for shortcuts.

The 2011 Indians are now proving that Clevelanders will ALWAYS fill arenas and stadiums if you give them a product worthy of watching.

GWhat TLMP needs to do is channel the first Bush. Stay the course, 1000 points of light.

He will be unable.


Agree with everything but the Ferry back in SA part. Best move this organization made since they didn't fuck up taking Da Whore.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 25, 2011 1:17 pm

Kanter's camp according to the DX chat at hoopsworld is leaking that Vala is higher on the Cavs draft board.

Amick at SI (who is very well connected) is reporting Kanter.

I hate predraft ramp up.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby JJN » Wed May 25, 2011 1:19 pm

He knows we can use only part of the TPE's $14.5 mil total, right?
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 25, 2011 1:27 pm

^I'm sure he does, I think he said, "up to."
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 25, 2011 1:55 pm

swerb wrote:Dan Gilbert doesn't have the patience for a Seattle Sonics/Oklahoma City five year rebuild.


When the Heat win it all in a three weeks, the odds of this happening go from like 90 to 95%.


TMLP ... in his efforts to fill the arena, fill his casino, grandstand to a fan base that wants results now, and satisfy his short man syndrome cravings ... will look for shortcuts.


I'm connecting the dots and coming up with a different picture. Let me put it this way: Show us where the Zombie Sonics plan can overcome the Heat.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed May 25, 2011 1:59 pm

Just catching up, thank you all for making my lunch hour more interesting.

Rudy Gay is a really good player. A rapidly improving albeit overpaid (but that's why they're in trade rumors in the first place) young player is exactly what we need to be targeting with the #4 pick and the TPE. And Lee is also right in that there's a big difference between Gay (who at least has the potential to develop into a #2 guy on a contender) and Iguodala (a good player who has reached his ceiling and is probably no more than a #3-#4/specialist type on a contender).

Having said that (copyright, Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld), you may be underestimating how shittastic the Eastern Conference is past the top 6 teams. Kyrie, a Rudy Gay type, and our current roster (even minus Jamison and Davis) may be enough to scratch out 35 wins. Of course tanking beyond our top 2-3 pieces is the right move but as Swerb just said, not a great chance that Gilbert actually goes through with it . I chose not renew my tickets and they've been contacting me with the fervor of a jilted 19 year old sorority girl trying to get back with her boyfriend. I think they took a complete bath on tickets and the smart strategy (tanking) goes in direct conflict with their finances and this stupid PR battle he's trying to maintain. A smart owner would see past all of that and focus on the end game but I think Gilbert is still too angry to do it.

The other concern is that even if they do want to acquire a Rudy Gay-type piece then tank the rest of the roster, I don't know if Dunphy can. First, Jamison won't get traded until February so you'll have him playing 45-50 games and contributing to mediocre basketball. Second, Baron's contract may very well be untradeable until after next season. I don't think any true contender has enough of a point guard need to take on $29M of salary for 2 full seasons and I don't know why any non-contender would want to. Andy makes a ton of sense to trade at this point but I don't know what deal is out there that would also fit in with a tanking strategy. Andy's value would also be to a contender and I don't know which young assets/lottery picks any of them have to spare.

But bottom line, if a Rudy Gay is available for #4, the TPE, and even 1-2 more middling assets, you take him and ask questions later. Players like that don't exactly grow on trees and high end free agency is irrelevant here. You just have to hope they're still bad enough to end up in the #5-#8 pick range for the next couple years with a puncher's chance at the top 3. It better be someone of his quality though. I'm more than happy to let the TPE lapse if the Iguodalas are the best available and no 2012 lottery picks are available.

Also, what kind of money would it take to get Greg Oden? Complete and utter shot in the dark but may be worth exploring at the right price.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 25, 2011 2:15 pm

Frankly, if indications are that no one is going to bite on Jamo then you buy him out.

He should not be playing a half a season for this team.

And you give Baron a month to try and get a team to bite, if they don’t you smash his ankle with a sledge hammer.

The last thing a young PG needs is sharing minutes and the ball with Davis. Just look at what that fuck tried to do to Eric Gordan last year. Gordan was developing into a very good player while BD was out, as soon as he got back he intentionally froze him out of the offense.

Again, to tank with or without a quality young player being brought in you need to get rid of these players.

And fuck Dan Gilbert for not pulling the trigger on that Harden for Andy deal last year. Fuck him.

And Madre, how you can call a team where that top four core members are 23 and under unable to overtake the Heat is insane.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 25, 2011 2:29 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:And Madre, how you can call a team where that top four core members are 23 and under unable to overtake the Heat is insane.


Durant's in his fourth season. Westbrook his third. Unless Presti has another All-Star or two hiding under his mattresses or Harden and Ibaka have another level jump left in them, what you see is what you're getting for the next few years. And what I'm seeing wasn't good enough to hang with Dallas.

And I want to believe you when you say the Mavs can take out the Heat, but after the dismantling the Bulls got I'm just not seeing it.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 25, 2011 2:42 pm

I still maintain that the Bulls are a terrible playoff basketball roster.

They cannot space the floor, their #2 is Boozer, they suck as a passing team, their #3 cannot create his own shot (Deng), etc. All they have is decent D/boarding. The Mavs are unlike any team Miami has seen thus far. The pack everyone inside the paint and let LBJ cover the two shooters on the floor D isn’t going to work. Not to mention that Bosh has to guard Dirk/Chandler, both situations which don’t bode well. If the Marion/DeShawn/Kidd trio does even a pseudo job slowing down Wade and LBJ there is no reason the Mavs can’t win it.

The Mavs are the anit-Bulls, period.

As for the Thunder, James Harden has blossomed this year and most certainly has another level to go. Durant has about 10 levels to go (seriously, he is just starting to scratch the surface of his talent) and Westbrook looks a lot like a PG that is seeing his first real competitive playoffs. Coaching for them is the biggest issue of all and I do believe Brooks has to go yesterday. Also Ibaka absolutely has another level. First year with major minutes and he has improved drastically. That isn’t a trend that is just going to die.

Plus Perk is actually useful against the Heat, unlike against the Mavs. *assuming he gets healthy next year*

Calling out Durant for four seasons as being capped out is WAY WAY WAY short sighted. Kid has taken another step every year and still has tons of room to grow. Dirk’s continuous evolution of a player is a great comp, although Durant has a higher upside.

And let’s be real, this is their first year playing as a real contending team and they made the conference finals with a core of 23 and under. I don’t care about years, that is huge and will be huge in their future development.

Not to mention that if Westbrook doesn’t follow the Rondo path and grow he is a huge trade piece in the future.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby JJN » Wed May 25, 2011 2:42 pm

If the Bulls had been playing anyone, hell, even the corpse from Weekend at Bernies at the 4 spot, I don't think they would be facing elimination right now. Boozer has been so, so bad.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 25, 2011 2:45 pm

Bullshit to that part in bold. That team needs to grow up and have someone there that ain't gonna let them melt down and quit.

You're crazy if you think that group of Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden are treading water for 3-4 years.

Honestly, I have no idea where you come up with some of this stuff dude. I honestly don't.



Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:And Madre, how you can call a team where that top four core members are 23 and under unable to overtake the Heat is insane.


Durant's in his fourth season. Westbrook his third. Unless Presti has another All-Star or two hiding under his mattresses or Harden and Ibaka have another level jump left in them, what you see is what you're getting for the next few years. And what I'm seeing wasn't good enough to hang with Dallas.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 25, 2011 2:56 pm

JJN wrote:If the Bulls had been playing anyone, hell, even the corpse from Weekend at Bernies at the 4 spot, I don't think they would be facing elimination right now. Boozer has been so, so bad.


To a small degree.

They still can't hit a shot from outside the 3 point line either.

And they still don't have any way to prevent the trap off the pick and roll on Rose.

I hate that roster.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 25, 2011 2:56 pm

Brooks may get 1 more season, only losing out to a legit "deep playoff proven" coach. I think this only because the whole thing just seems like the natural progression of a team advancing.

Dallas has a multi-faceted roster with tons of vet savvy and a legit killer (who has only done more ungodly work since our last lil debate on his All-Time ranking) who has been to the Finals before...
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 25, 2011 3:06 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
JJN wrote:If the Bulls had been playing anyone, hell, even the corpse from Weekend at Bernies at the 4 spot, I don't think they would be facing elimination right now. Boozer has been so, so bad.


To a small degree.

They still can't hit a shot from outside the 3 point line either.

And they still don't have any way to prevent the trap off the pick and roll on Rose.

I hate that roster.


Aren't they getting beat the same way those early Cavaliers teams did against Detroit, and even the "better" versions against Boston? The few, 1?, legit shooter they have has been ice cold. While Bogans, Deng, and Brewer can hit the 3, they aren't consistent enough to force Miami out of thier box.

That passing is cringe worthy. I noticed a handful of times Deng just would refuse to pass the ball into Noah. Then when he finally does, its both a bad pass and a lack of paying attention by Noah that results in a turnover. Causes Rose to press causing more turnovers and less fluidity. He just doesn't trust those guys enough to rip a quick pass as the trap is forming.

Miami especially when Haslem is on the floor has 4 guys that can do everything. Chicago is too specialized, too complimentary, too Cleveland.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 25, 2011 3:09 pm

I'll leave an I Want To Believe poster here and wait for the end of the NBA Finals.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 25, 2011 3:17 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:I'll leave an I Want To Believe poster here and wait for the end of the NBA Finals.


Look, maybe Miami comes in and the Wade/LBJ go for 40 a game while Bosh goes for 25 and they sweep.

No matter what, we haven't seen Miami play a team built like the Mavs in this playoffs, leaving making inferences from the Bulls series or The Dead Celtics series nearly impossible to make.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 25, 2011 3:24 pm

Also, re: The Bulls, if Noah wasn't the best passer on the floor he certainly gave Rose a run for his money.

The pitfalls of not finding a legit #2 then reaching for one in FA!!!
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby daddywags » Wed May 25, 2011 4:46 pm

Well, if Wade wins another title it will be twice with a number two player brought in via free agency. Not "reaches" of course, but that's the way they've done it. Hell, they had the number 2 overall pick in the draft a few years ago and that didn't get them squat.

Anyway, seems to me the Bulls are proving pretty much the same thing the Cavs proved for the past four or five years - you can't win a championship without a solid second scoring option, no matter how good your first option is. We'll see about Dallas, but I think this is going down the same way it did the last time those two teams met in the finals.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 pm

The Heat had a huge collection of young talent, aquired through the draft, that they turned into Shaq. Shaq was a trade, not a FA BTW.
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Re: Call the Picks

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed May 25, 2011 5:08 pm

Even with its pitfalls coming in, one huge advantage the Bulls roster was supposed to have over Miami was depth.

But because they can't space the floor, they are so desperate for someone to score, they gotta use Boozer as that option, even though he's being abused at the other end. This has relegated Taj Gibson to pretty much useless, then you've got a Euro-soccer injury.

All of the sudden the Heat's rotation of 8 is running the Bulls ragged. The key for the Bulls is extra possessions, and, while they are still a better rebounding team, it's not by the margin of game one, and the 50/50 balls are doing just that - and the Bulls need more than 50.
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