Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

by **ajunior148** » Mon May 23, 2011 4:53 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Lee likes it, ajunior hates it. Well, that was easy. Sign me up for Rudy Gay.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 4:55 pm

You just said Gay hasn't gotten better in 3 seasons.

That immediately and completely invalidates anything you wrote as it is about as untrue as untrue can get. Gay had his best year of his career BY FAR this year and improved every aspect of his game. His shooting %'s increased as well as his ability to play as a teammate.

Watch the fucking games or don't comment. Hell, LOOK UP THE STATS.

As for the ATL remark, as I said elsewhere, you either have to have faith that if you get a Gay Andy, Jamo and Davis are getting moved for other assets (youth and/or draft picks) or you have to just give up on the concept of rebuilding.

Gay would be the #1 pick in this draft and 20 - 6 - 3 - 1.7 - 1.1 doesn't grow on trees.

You bring him in, give up the #4 pick and a 50% at best chance at getting another lottery pick in this draft with the TPE (and the last time the TPE will be used realisticly is draft day) and you deal your vets for more assets.

Kids fucking 25 years old and you are retarded for saying he hasn't improved in 3 years. Insane.

I love it when people just talk out their fucking asses to play couch GM.

PS: Gay isn't an LBJ style player, teams with him on them have drafted in the top five more than once. Stop pretending like he makes you a late Lotto team by himself if you dump vet talent.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 4:57 pm

Seriously Gay's improvment was one of the biggest and most talked about sujects in the NBA before he got hurt. Do you even follow basketball?

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:04 pm

And to clarify by saying "give up on the concept of rebuild" I mean you have to give up on Gilbert owning teh team. Because aquiring a 25 year old asset coming off of his best year does not in any way mean you have to fight for the eight spot next year. If Gilbert decides to do that the team is fucked no matter what because his head is so far up his ass he can't find his way out.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:07 pm

JJN wrote:Rudy Gay is probably a better player than anyone coming out in this draft. Its easy to forget because MEM went on the playoff run without him, but he was stupid good this season. 47%/40%/80% - 20pts/6reb/3ast/1.7st/1 block. And he isn't yet 25.

OJ has such a man boner for Kanter he cannot be logical on this and AJ apparently doesn't realize last season happened.

Gay is coming out this year he goes #1, no questions asked.

Fucking christ.

by **ajunior148** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:29 pm

You should probably get your blood pressure checked.

e0y2e3 wrote:
Gay had his best year of his career BY FAR this year and improved every aspect of his game. His shooting %'s increased as well as his ability to play as a teammate.

PS: Gay isn't an LBJ style player, teams with him on them have drafted in the top five more than once. Stop pretending like he makes you a late Lotto team by himself if you dump vet talent.

I deleted much of the middle portion because I don't have time for the usual back and forth this tends to lead to, but I just wanted to point out that both of these combined can't be relevant. Either he has improved to be the player you claim he is and shouldn't be leading teams to top 5 draft picks, or he hasn't improved as you say.

But to clarify, I like Rudy Gay as a player. I don't think he is the level that you obviously do, but he is a good player.

I'll link his stats and you can tell me where the significant improvement is, since you say it is there. Seriously, I'll keep an open mind:

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3005/rudy-gay

If we do take Rudy Gay we are severely limiting our ability to get a true franchise player going forward. That's my point, and it is something you did not address. Trading away Jamison is not going to get us another big time player unless we were to get incredibly lucky like we did in this lotto, and even then any picks will probably be lotto protected.

We should be shooting for a better core than Gay, Irving, what we'd get from trading Jamison, and late lotto/mid first round picks and mid level veterans going forward. That's the point of my post.

I'd prefer another bad season with another shot at a top 5 pick, along with one of the euro bigs at #4. No need to take it personal.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:37 pm

You're just retarded.

I'm not discussing anything with someone that doesn't even realize how much Gay improved last year. You don't follow basketball so stop pretending.

And the point in trading ALL (AS IN NOT JUST JAMO) of those guys is for more assets and for having Gay and Irving starting on a team of street FAs and Lionel Hollins as much as it is for the other assets you get.

Rudy Gay is not LBJ, he is not winning 50 games with 3 giant bums and Kyrie. Honest question, have you actually ever watched Rudy Gay play basketball? Did you watch him once last year? No, so go away. HIS IMPROVEMENT WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST STORIES IN THE NBA LAST YEAR, AND YOU DON'T REALIZE IT... WOOHOO!!!!

Career marks in PER, 3 point %, FG% and FT%. His PER for the last three years - 15.3, 16.2, 17.8. His dimes mark is double his career average. He changed his game from inefficient volume shooter to efficient scorer/closer and a guy that stop chucking every ball he saw and started playing within the team concept.

The National Team experience (where he was the second best player) effected this immensely.

YOU DO NOT FOLLOW THE NBA IF YOU DON'T KNOW THIS.

FACT.

by **ajunior148** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:44 pm

It's hard to compare from season to season, but Hollinger's PER does a pretty good job of it.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics

2010-2011 Season

Gay is ranked 58th overall with a PER of 17.88.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2008

2007-2008 Season

Gay is ranked 66th overall with a PER of 17.34.

His efficiency went up by .54 from his second season to his 5th. He went from being the 66th most efficient to the 58th.

He's just not the impact player we'd need to justify the opportunity cost in my opinion, and the improvement just isn't there.

He is talented like you say, but my fear is it would be pretty difficult to improve our roster with him on it.

by **ajunior148** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:53 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
Career marks in PER, 3 point %, FG% and FT%. His PER for the last three years - 15.3, 16.2, 17.8. His dimes mark is double his career average. He changed his game from inefficient volume shooter to efficient scorer/closer and a guy that stop chucking every ball he saw and started playing within the team concept.

Why mention those career highs without mentioning the marginal improvement? To go from a 17.34 PER in 2008 to a 17.88 PER in 2011 is not significant improvement, e0. But yes it is a career high for him.

He's been around a 20 PPG, 6 RPG, 2.0 APG, 46%/34%/77% player since his second year. He was in line with that last year, with a pretty good improvement on 3's. Why are you so upset about it?

And your assist statement is flat out untrue. It is not double his career average.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:54 pm

Basketball Reference has his PER at 16.2 two years ago.

Either way, I don't give a fuck.

His change was his ability to play within the team and play defense.

He also went from shooting 33% from 3 to 40%.

He also shot better from the floor.

He also doubled his dimes.

Just stop proving how little you follow what you are commenting on. Please.

I'm embarassed for you.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:56 pm

I'm done with you. You missed one of the biggest stories of the NBA season and are spinning.

It was WIDELY reported how much Gay changed his game.

You don't understand and are now using career numbers that FACTOR IN THIS YEAR to prove your argument.

Fucking love it when people just start making shit up that they didn't follow.

I bow to your knowledge of Rudy Gay and his lack of improvment last year.

by **ajunior148** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:59 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Basketball Reference has his PER at 16.2 two years ago.

ESPN has it at 16.3 in 09/10, I am guessing that is what you are referencing.

But my point is he has gone from a 17.34 PER his second year in the league to a 17.88 his 5th. And it wasn't a down year this year for him.

And stop lying about his assists. He went from a 1.9 APG to a 2.8. That's not doubled.

He is what he is. A good player, but committing that much to him this early in the rebuilding process is a mistake, in my opinion.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 5:59 pm

Also you disengenous little fuck. He had a career year in 07-08 and then FELL FLAT ON HIS FACE THE NEXT YEAR WHEN HE BECAME A CHUCKER.

HE DID THE SAME THE NEXT YEAR.

THIS IS WHY MEMPHIS GOT RIPPED ON FOR GIVING HIM A MAX DEAL.

HE CORRECTED HIS GAME IN A MASSIVE WAY THIS YEAR, IMPROVING ON THE BASE HE ESTABLISHED IN '7-08, WHEN HE WAS CONSIDERED AN ELITE PROSPECT.

YOU ClAIMED HE HAS NOT IMPROVED IN THREE YEARS AND THEN WENT BACK FOUR YEAR FOR PROOF.

WAY TO GO!!!!

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 6:00 pm

Whatever, follow the NBA before making ridiculous claims.

Fucking unreal.

/out

by **ajunior148** » Mon May 23, 2011 6:09 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Also you disengenous little fuck. He had a career year in 07-08 and then FELL FLAT ON HIS FACE THE NEXT YEAR WHEN HE BECAME A CHUCKER.

HE DID THE SAME THE NEXT YEAR.

THIS IS WHY MEMPHIS GOT RIPPED ON FOR GIVING HIM A MAX DEAL.

HE CORRECTED HIS GAME IN A MASSIVE WAY THIS YEAR, IMPROVING ON THE BASE HE ESTABLISHED IN '7-08, WHEN HE WAS CONSIDERED AN ELITE PROSPECT.

YOU ClAIMED HE HAS NOT IMPROVED IN THREE YEARS AND THEN WENT BACK FOUR YEAR FOR PROOF.

WAY TO GO!!!!

Honestly, you are taking this way too seriously.

But you are correct in that I said 3 years before when I should have said 4 seasons. His second season is obviously the basis from him flatlining his progression, though. Going off of memory can cause someone to think that a guy has been in the league for 4 seasons when it has been 5.

Seriously, relax a little.

by **daddywags** » Mon May 23, 2011 8:04 pm

I'm not smart enough on NBA stuff to know but if Gay is worth more than the 4th pick to the Cavs, then he's probably worth more than the 4th pick to Memphis, too. Unless they want to dump his salary - and if his salary is so out of whack to his talent then I can't fathom why a rebuilding team like ours would want it. Seems like an ill fit to me.

Although I did entertain the notion that the Cavs might be calling around trying to find someone to take the 4th pick and TPE for a veteran player the T-Wolves might like for pick 2. I believe the Boss wants Derrick Williams in the worst way.

by **JJN** » Mon May 23, 2011 9:23 pm

daddywags wrote:I'm not smart enough on NBA stuff to know but if Gay is worth more than the 4th pick to the Cavs, then he's probably worth more than the 4th pick to Memphis, too. Unless they want to dump his salary - and if his salary is so out of whack to his talent then I can't fathom why a rebuilding team like ours would want it. Seems like an ill fit to me.

Because the guy who gave away Pau Gasol still runs the team. Because they just gave Conley $40mil, Z-Bo $66-ish mil, and Marc Gasol and Mayo (should they keep him) still need to get paid. Gay is their most moveable asset to clear salary space.

The big difference in Gay's game came not in terms of efficiency (although , 5+% increases on FT and 3P is nothing to scoff at) but he became THE GUY on Memphis. He started making his own shots, rather than having to be set up. His defense was also way better, giving you about +7 PER versus over opponents.

I also don't think he really hurts our salary that much, not with Jamison coming off the books (through trade or otherwise) and hopefully BD and AV being traded as well. Its hard to say exactly because we don't know what the new CBA will look like, but based on the rookie scale right now, here's what our salaries look like:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... n_US#gid=0

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 10:02 pm

Spreadsheet isn't public JJN

by **JJN** » Mon May 23, 2011 10:44 pm

Should work now, if not, let me know.

by **ajunior148** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:09 pm

It's working now.

JJN wrote:The big difference in Gay's game came not in terms of efficiency (although , 5+% increases on FT and 3P is nothing to scoff at) but he became THE GUY on Memphis. He started making his own shots, rather than having to be set up. His defense was also way better, giving you about +7 PER versus over opponents.

Okay, to break this down in practical terms then JJN, what type of player do you expect Gay to be for the next 3-5 years? Are you saying that he'll improve from the 58th ranked PER that he produced this season? If so, why? Or are you saying that we'll still be able to add a potential top ten talent with him on our team? Or you aren't concerned with adding a true franchise guy?

Also, just for comparison's sake, the Memphis Grizzlies were 31-26 when he went down. They went 15-10 to finish the season. Other factors are involved, but they didn't miss him the way other good players would be missed.

I do agree with the idea that our cap space would not be affected as much as other cities, but I do think there is some risk there.

by **motherscratcher** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:09 pm

JJN wrote:Should work now, if not, let me know.

That is outstanding work there JJN.

BTW - I don't have a dog in the fight, but I do remember hearing a few times this past season hearing about the improved play of Gay. Probably on Simmon's Pod. Not that he is the end all be all, but he's about the only NBA stuff I get. But I definitely remember hearing it more than once. FWIW, which admittedly ain't much.

by **ajunior148** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:12 pm

JJN wrote: His defense was also way better, giving you about +7 PER versus over opponents.

Where is this at? I can't find it.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:12 pm

AJ, Gay's ceiling is a #2 on a title team. A guy like that, Kyrie and a bunch of street FAs isn't making the playoffs. As a matter of fact they are losing a lot of games.

And if Gilbert is dumb enough to trade for a Gay and keep BD, Jamo and Andy this franchise is fucked regardless because he just doesn't get it.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:17 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
JJN wrote:Should work now, if not, let me know.

That is outstanding work there JJN.

BTW - I don't have a dog in the fight, but I do remember hearing a few times this past season hearing about the improved play of Gay. Probably on Simmon's Pod. Not that he is the end all be all, but he's about the only NBA stuff I get. But I definitely remember hearing it more than once. FWIW, which admittedly ain't much.

You could have been a fucking blind mute and caught Gay's improvement this year. Literally all you had to do was accidentally catch a report on the NBA once a month.

by **ajunior148** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:22 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:AJ, Gay's ceiling is a #2 on a title team. A guy like that, Kyrie and a bunch of street FAs isn't making the playoffs. As a matter of fact they are losing a lot of games.

And if Gilbert is dumb enough to trade for a Gay and keep BD, Jamo and Andy this franchise is fucked regardless because he just doesn't get it.

Glad to see you've calmed down a little.

We agree that he's a number two on a title team. We seem to disagree on if adding a number two right now is worth it at that cost, because IMO it really hurts our odds of getting a top 5 pick. And we sure as hell aren't getting a top level FA here. It has to be the draft.

I'm not certain that we can trade BD this season. We could trade Andy, but I'm not even certain about Jamo.

But if for some reason we'd be a bottom 5 team again next season and have a shot at Anthony Davis then I'd be happy with it. Gay's a good player, but this is not a slam dunk decision.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:23 pm

No, it is still ridiculous you come in here commenting on a player that even a non-NBA rube like mother caught reports on. Don't comment unless you have a clue what you are talking about. You're not some fucking random from the STO portal.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:25 pm

Frankly, w/ or w/out Gay something has to be done about Baron, as he is not an SG and Kyrie's minutes don't need to be cut for him. I don't care what happens, he needs to be addressed.

And Jamo's expiring will be dealable. At the deadline to a team looking for a final piece at the very least.

by **motherscratcher** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:25 pm

It does seem kind of insane to HOPE that the #4 pick in this draft ends up being more valuable than Rudy Gay. If you can get Gay for that pick I don't know how it isn't a no-brainer.

But it all hinges on e0ys point. Either the Cavs are rebuilding or they are not. If they are not, then we are well and truly fucked no matter who gets drafted or traded for. If, like we all hope, the Cavs are rebuilding, Gay could be a great part of that rebuild. It all depends on La Petite Douche.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:25 pm

Also, the entire top ten next year is going to be loaded.

by **peeker643** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:32 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
JJN wrote:Should work now, if not, let me know.

That is outstanding work there JJN.

BTW - I don't have a dog in the fight, but I do remember hearing a few times this past season hearing about the improved play of Gay. Probably on Simmon's Pod. Not that he is the end all be all, but he's about the only NBA stuff I get. But I definitely remember hearing it more than once. FWIW, which admittedly ain't much.

You could have been a fucking blind mute and caught Gay's improvement this year. Literally all you had to do was accidentally catch a report on the NBA once a month.

Meh.. if you're a blind mute you'd have to catch it on radio or be schooled in figuring out to work an iPod. And you'd probably have to have someone download podcasts for you cuz ya can't see and then how would you tell them what ya wanted them to download?

Not sure a blind mute would know this stuff really. That's a leap.

:tfh:

I'd take Gay over #4 all day. Not just the player but a kid that came in with high expectations, almost got buried by them and then worked his way up again. That's a good story and if dude has some sense then he's probably got some leadership skills too.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:34 pm

FWIW: this entire argument is a moot point, as Heisley said point blank he isn't trading Gay.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:45 pm

And the Griz were 19-10 in Jan and Feb. It's ridiculous to cite that 15-10 without acknowledging that it was merely a continuing trend.

by **ajunior148** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:51 pm

motherscratcher wrote:It does seem kind of insane to HOPE that the #4 pick in this draft ends up being more valuable than Rudy Gay. If you can get Gay for that pick I don't know how it isn't a no-brainer.

peeker643 wrote:I'd take Gay over #4 all day. Not just the player but a kid that came in with high expectations, almost got buried by them and then worked his way up again. That's a good story and if dude has some sense then he's probably got some leadership skills too.

Again, no one is saying that it is as simple as Gay vs the #4 pick. But I am saying that you're both being short sighted by not considering what it would be costing us with future draft picks.

To simplify it a little for you both, the argument is that Gay plus next year's pick with Gay on the roster is not better than the #4 pick plus next years draft pick without Gay.

Here is a mock draft for 2012:

http://www.nbadraft.net/2012mock_draft

I am saying that adding Gay and most likely the 6th to 10th pick next year is worse than the 4th pick this year and a top 5 next year.

That was OJ's point when he mentioned ATL. That's my point now. We aren't winning dick with a core of Gay/Irving, but we aren't getting very many ping pong balls in future drafts either. We need to bottom out and hope to get a legit franchise player through the draft.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:56 pm

I know what the 2010 draft looks like. I also know that it is the most loaded draft since the LBJ draft. Stop pretending like the #1 pick is all that matters and stop pretending like a rookie PG and a scorer surrounded by nothing is for sure not going to be a bottom five team.

It's a bunch of hyperbole from you and nothing else.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon May 23, 2011 11:58 pm

9 HS seniors in the top 12 from whatever shitty site that is and you are projecting. HA

by **e0y2e3** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:02 am

And again, I'm not sure you understand that 5 guys play basketball. 5 Fucking guys and if you play 3 bums with Kyrie and Gay your shot at #1 still exists.

And if Andy, Jamo and BD aren't dealt with you have a very legit chance to be out of the top five as well.

by **JJN** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:03 am

ajunior148 wrote:Okay, to break this down in practical terms then JJN, what type of player do you expect Gay to be for the next 3-5 years? Are you saying that he'll improve from the 58th ranked PER that he produced this season? If so, why? Or are you saying that we'll still be able to add a potential top ten talent with him on our team? Or you aren't concerned with adding a true franchise guy?

Also, just for comparison's sake, the Memphis Grizzlies were 31-26 when he went down. They went 15-10 to finish the season. Other factors are involved, but they didn't miss him the way other good players would be missed.

A Shawn Marion who can create his own shots or a tougher, more athletic Paul Pierce, something like that. Joe Johnson's unfulfilled potential but 2 inches taller with 4 more inches of vert. He's never had a PG as good as Kyrie can be, so I could see him putting up 25ppg along with 7-9 reb (without two rebounders as good as Gasol and ZBo on our team).

We will still be able to add talent in next year's draft. I wouldn't doubt that almost anyone in the lotto next year could go top-5 this year. A quick glance at possible true franchise guys next year looks good, the draft looks to be very deep at the forward positions (DX's top 7 for 2012 are all PF or SF), with a few SGs and a bunch more big men after that. (And slightly off-point, I think this is why you don't draft Williams this year unless he falls to four and there are no big men you love.)

Memphis was a bit of a mess all year (and started 2-8), and just happened to get a good matchup/hot at the right time. No one knows what to do with Mayo (and I wouldn't be opposed to the Cavs pursuing him if the price is right ie less than our #4), or what will happen with Gasol. Until they locked up ZBo, I'm sure he wasn't pleased that Mike-fucking-Conley got a big payday before he did.

I agree with Eoy that he is a #2 on a title team, or maybe even 1b on a team built right (maybe he isn't the superstar but is so important as to not be a #2).

by **e0y2e3** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:04 am

I don't know if anyone in the NBA is tougher than Pierce, FWIW.

by **ajunior148** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:06 am

9:25 PM:

e0y2e3 wrote:Also, the entire top ten next year is going to be loaded.

9:58 PM:

e0y2e3 wrote:9 HS seniors in the top 12 from whatever shitty site that is and you are projecting. HA

It's crazy to me how many people go out of their way to blow you on the internet. You say so much inconsistent stuff like this just to try to win an argument instead of being honest. Stop being such a puss and taking people disagreeing with you so personal. You're wrong sometimes.

It's why I never talk sports with you anymore. That, and I'm working two jobs and have no free time.

The old CS Sports was much better than this.

by **e0y2e3** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:08 am

No, you are out of your mind.

The entire top 15 is loaded with young talent.

The fact that it is young talent also means we can't be sure Franchise Guy is there. If you could use your fucking head you would get the difference between deep with raw talent and carrying a for sure franchise guy.

You also could go back and look at past top fives (bow did this just the other day) and count the # of franchise guys on one hand since Tim Duncan.

by **e0y2e3** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:12 am

But again, in your world having the #6 pick in a draft that is loaded with raw young talent is a failure of an attempt to build a team.

The fact is you are working two jobs and have no time so you don't follow the sport correctly yet make wild declarations. The WaterCooler and Cleveland Live analysis style. Gawd love it.

I've been having a very cordial conversation with MYoung on Twitter all day about this, because he isn't talking out his asshole.

by **ajunior148** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:25 am

9:25 PM:

e0y2e3 wrote:Also, the entire top ten next year is going to be loaded.

9:58 PM:

e0y2e3 wrote:9 HS seniors in the top 12 from whatever shitty site that is and you are projecting. HA

10:08 PM:

e0y2e3 wrote:But again, in your world having the #6 pick in a draft that is loaded with raw young talent is a failure of an attempt to build a team.

Christ, which one is it? Am I able to "project" that next years draft has a lot of talent or not?

by **e0y2e3** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:28 am

The only way you cannot wrap your feeble mind around this concept is if you can't understand that a lot of very good players doesn't mean you have Dwight Howard, KD or LBJ.

Remember last year at this time when Barnes was the next Kobe?

And in a draft with a ton of very talented players drafting anywhere in the top ten is going to help your franchise.

Seriously, you aren't this fucking dense.

by **e0y2e3** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:28 am

And this entire red herring you are throwing out is completely dodging the concept that the team can suck with Gay and it can end up outside of the top ten with the #1, #4, Andy, Jamo and BD.

by **ajunior148** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:36 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Remember last year at this time when Barnes was the next Kobe?

Yes, which is why I see the value of a top 5 pick vs a later lotto pick. Out of all of these incoming freshman with a ton of talent, only a very small amount will look like potential elite guys this time next year most likely.

It's possible none of them do. But adding the 55ish best player in the league isn't enough for me to not want a great chance at one.

But that doesn't address why you knock me for projecting when you did the same twice within like 4 posts tonight. Only way to explain it is you're willing to say whatever to win an argument, regardless of how true it is.

by **ajunior148** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:38 am

e0y2e3 wrote:And this entire red herring you are throwing out is completely dodging the concept that the team can suck with Gay and it can end up outside of the top ten with the #1, #4, Andy, Jamo and BD.

How is this possible if we're agreeing that Gay > #4 next season?

by **e0y2e3** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:38 am

Yep - Rudy Gay is the 55th best player in the league.

W/ that note... I'm out

Follow the league and use your head again or go back into hiding, it'll save you a lot of problems. You go back and look at the previous top five's yet? No, that would require work and though.

by **e0y2e3** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:41 am

ajunior148 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:And this entire red herring you are throwing out is completely dodging the concept that the team can suck with Gay and it can end up outside of the top ten with the #1, #4, Andy, Jamo and BD.

How is this possible if we're agreeing that Gay > #4 next season?

Gay, the #4, whatever. A healthy Cavs squad with Irving and a big body standing in the middle is going to win some games, period.

Quick top four reasons the Cavs sucked copious amounts of ass:

1) Injuries

2) PG

3) Center

4) JJ's inconsistencies/SF I'll give it a tie.

by **ajunior148** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:44 am

e0y2e3 wrote:
ajunior148 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:And this entire red herring you are throwing out is completely dodging the concept that the team can suck with Gay and it can end up outside of the top ten with the #1, #4, Andy, Jamo and BD.

How is this possible if we're agreeing that Gay > #4 next season?

Gay, the #4, whatever. A healthy Cavs squad with Irving and a big body standing in the middle is going to win some games, period.

Quick top four reasons the Cavs sucked copious amounts of ass:

1) Injuries

2) PG

3) Center

4) JJ's inconsistencies

So nothing that has any relevance at all to our discussion, then? Just things that would be just as likely whether we had Gay or #4, but you agree that Gay will be better than #4 next season so we're more likely to have a lower pick with Gay?

by **JJN** » Tue May 24, 2011 12:45 am

In any case, this is all moot, so we can get back to this year's draft.

We all seem to agree that we will take Irving. The 2 and 3 spots are going to be too hard to pick, but it seems probably that either Kanter or Williams will be available to us at 4. Can Utah take a big man with Jefferson, Millsap, Okur, and Favors on the roster? Favors has too much potential to squeeze out of playing time, and Okur is the only one who isn't on a long-term deal. They really need help at the 2 and 3 unless Raja Bell and Gordon Hayward are the answer (hint: they're not), so I wouldn't be surprised to see them go with Knight, Vesley, or Kawhi.

I have no clue what will happen with the T-Wolves, nor am I sure I want to. If I start being able to get in the head of David Khan I may step in front of a moving train.

We also have the number 2 and 24 picks in the 2nd round this year, and while the draft is weak, I think that the difference between mid-1st round talent and 2nd round talent isn't as big this year as it normally is. I am interested in Nikola Vucevic and Jeremy Tyler in the 2nd round. Both 7 footers and weigh 260lbs. Nikola looks like he will be able to play inside and outside, and may have moved into the first round based on his measurements. Tyler is the kid who skipped his senior year in HS for proball in Israel. He hasn't had an easy time, but it seems like that may have given him a lot of perspective. Can't be worse than Hollins, right?

I'm also interested in Lucas Nogueira, who may or may not be there. Another 7 footer, but only weighs about 230. Very Varejao-ey. Very raw, but won't yet be 19 by the draft and we don't really need him to be good right away.

There also appears to be a slew of swingmen who will be there for our first 2nd rounder. Same as Tyler applies, they really can't be much worse than what we are trotting out now. Will be interesting to see if some of the non-lotto teams take cash for their first rounders because they are worried about guaranteed money for first rounders or a hard cap in the new CBA. Klay Thompson, Chris Singleton, Travis Leslie and Tobias Harris are all interesting prospects as swingmen. None of them are going to be world beaters, but they could have very productive careers as either as a stopper (or scorer for Klay), and these playoffs have really shown how important a Tony Allen-type can be.

Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

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