Asshole on Cavs: "Karma is a bitch, God sees everything"

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

What brought it all home again was last night watching tWoA without Bosh and Wade.

You managed to catch the first Heat game where the other twelve guys decided to show up. Up until now there were questions as to if Mike Miller was going to beat out Al Harrington as the worst off-season signing.

As for mine 'n Donny's point, I go with what OJ just said: Replace Jordan with Randy Brown and the Bulls drop 2 games and a couple rungs on the playoff ladder. Replace Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Phil Jackson and its a 49 game swing.

Was Bron only worth two games? Fuck no. He was holding down both the MJ and Pippen roles here. He was the franchise cornerstone, take him out and the whole thing crumbles. But he wasn't the only thing keeping the team together. Take out Redz - the who stirred the drink far better than Mo Gotti ever did, Big Ben and Shaq - who are still light-years ahead of JJ and Hollins, and yes even Roker and whaddya know it got epically worse.

The takeaway comes if the Heat don't break 60 wins and fail to get farther than the Eastern Conference Finals. Then they haven't done any better than the Cavs did since the emergence of Dwight Howard and Boston's Three Amigos.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

I'll lay down the question here: How many wins do you think Lebron James was worth to the Cavaliers?

[peeker643]

I'll lay down the question here: How many wins do you think Lebron James was worth to the Cavaliers?

Which LeBron? The fully actualized LeBron or the rookie LeBron y'all wanna cherry pick depending on the answer?

[Spin]

He was worth two to Boston last spring...

[FUDU]

^ funny shit

[leadpipe]

What brought it all home again was last night watching tWoA without Bosh and Wade.

You managed to catch the first Heat game where the other twelve guys decided to show up. Up until now there were questions as to if Mike Miller was going to beat out Al Harrington as the worst off-season signing.

As for mine 'n Donny's point, I go with what OJ just said: Replace Jordan with Randy Brown and the Bulls drop 2 games and a couple rungs on the playoff ladder. Replace Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Phil Jackson and its a 49 game swing.

Was Bron only worth two games? Fuck no. He was holding down both the MJ and Pippen roles here. He was the franchise cornerstone, take him out and the whole thing crumbles. But he wasn't the only thing keeping the team together. Take out Redz - the who stirred the drink far better than Mo Gotti ever did, Big Ben and Shaq - who are still light-years ahead of JJ and Hollins, and yes even Roker and whaddya know it got epically worse.

The takeaway comes if the Heat don't break 60 wins and fail to get farther than the Eastern Conference Finals. Then they haven't done any better than the Cavs did since the emergence of Dwight Howard and Boston's Three Amigos.

Take out Redz and Shaq, and ya got the same team number one seed team in the East ya had when they weren't there.

As far as OJ's point, I think you could say that Pippen, Horace Grant and Tony Kukoc were very viable payers sans Jordan. Sure, Jordan made them better, but when Jordan left they didn't morph into Donyell Marshall, Damon Jones, Larry Hughes or any other hump the Cavs had playing major minutes.

Again, by that rationale you are saying there is little difference between a good role player and a guy who blows.

Andy Varjeo is a good role player. Donyell Marshall blew, as an example.

It couldn't be more clear that Lebron was that whole team.

[Orenthal]

What brought it all home again was last night watching tWoA without Bosh and Wade.

You managed to catch the first Heat game where the other twelve guys decided to show up. Up until now there were questions as to if Mike Miller was going to beat out Al Harrington as the worst off-season signing.

As for mine 'n Donny's point, I go with what OJ just said: Replace Jordan with Randy Brown and the Bulls drop 2 games and a couple rungs on the playoff ladder. Replace Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, and Phil Jackson and its a 49 game swing.

Was Bron only worth two games? Fuck no. He was holding down both the MJ and Pippen roles here. He was the franchise cornerstone, take him out and the whole thing crumbles. But he wasn't the only thing keeping the team together. Take out Redz - the who stirred the drink far better than Mo Gotti ever did, Big Ben and Shaq - who are still light-years ahead of JJ and Hollins, and yes even Roker and whaddya know it got epically worse.

The takeaway comes if the Heat don't break 60 wins and fail to get farther than the Eastern Conference Finals. Then they haven't done any better than the Cavs did since the emergence of Dwight Howard and Boston's Three Amigos.

My only point, and I admit I did look at their stats later, is that any #1 player in the League makes the players around him vastly better. The dropoff on all those guys was pretty substantial. Really only BJ's first year away and Pipp's one year w/o Jordan differed from ^.

[Orenthal]

btw, full disclosure, I was a believer in the LeBron hurt some guys games thinking. That one can't really stand on 2 legs anymore. Only perhaps Jamo had his game altered in a net negative, but he was an "almost elite" player for years outside his 3 months stint with LeBron.

[e0y2e3]

He hurt Mo's game. Mo was a better all around player in Mil.

Only problem is Mo forget his game in the last couple of years. Now he's a lost puppy out there.

[pup]

The funny part to me, FUDU, is you thinking we are making your point without realizing you are making mine.

The Cavs had a roster chock full of supporting players. Great.

1 star and 11 supporting players does not win a title.

LeBron realized this. They did nothing to get him the help he needed, since nobody can win a title alone (as close as he came to doing it).

So he bailed.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

The work firewall won't let me direct reply, so I'll have to do this on the fly.

Which LeBron? The fully actualized LeBron or the rookie LeBron y'all wanna cherry pick depending on the answer?

I'll go with the fully actualized LeBron. And I'll toss in a bonus answer of my own: 25 to 30 wins, at least.

Take out Redz and Shaq, and ya got the same team number one seed team in the East ya had when they weren't there.

... Really? The same team that was lucky to make 50 wins before, now wins 66 and 61 after Mo, Delonte, Ben, and Shaq are picked up - but its all Lebron?

Only perhaps Jamo had his game altered in a net negative, but he was an "almost elite" player for years outside his 3 months stint with LeBron.

To be honest, Jamo was fool's gold. We would've been no better or worse letting JJ take his minutes.

He hurt Mo's game. Mo was a better all around player in Mil.

I'm starting to wonder if Mo was fool's gold as well. Dude definitely ain't Ric Flair.

They did nothing to get him the help he needed

World Wide Wes, ladies and gentlemen. I was wondering when he'd show up.

[Spin]

You guys forget we didn't just lose LeBron.

We also lost Shaq, Redz, and Z. Three of five starters (when Redz wasn't psychotic) and arguably your third big.

[pup]

You guys forget we didn't just lose LeBron.

We also lost Shaq, Redz, and Z. Three of five starters (when Redz wasn't psychotic) and arguably your third big.

I am not forgetting that.

Put those 3 cats in C-Town right now and they have 10 wins instead of 8.

[motherscratcher]

You guys forget we didn't just lose LeBron.

We also lost Shaq, Redz, and Z. Three of five starters (when Redz wasn't psychotic) and arguably your third big.

I am not forgetting that.

Put those 3 cats in C-Town right now and they have 10 wins instead of 8.

This. I'm pretty sure that the guys on this board are aware of that fact.

As a basketball moron, I wasn't sure where I stood on this. At first I didn't think the supporting cast was that bad. The posters on this board have definitely convinced me otherwise. It seems fairly obvious that the Cavs success was ALL LeBron at this point.

Not sure I believe ANYBODY thought they would be this bad, though.

[peeker643]

You guys forget we didn't just lose LeBron.

We also lost Shaq, Redz, and Z. Three of five starters (when Redz wasn't psychotic) and arguably your third big.

I am not forgetting that.

Put those 3 cats in C-Town right now and they have 10 wins instead of 8.

Yep.

[Orenthal]

They'd have more then 10 just based on someone being able to play interior defense. They wouldn't be good, but this is why we go back and forth... The minutiae.

[e0y2e3]

^ is forgetting how many games Shaq and Redz have actually played this year.

[e0y2e3]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... llen020911

Don't care to start another thread. But a pretty hard thing to stomach re: loyalty and what just happened to the Cavs.

[Orenthal]

^ is forgetting how many games Shaq and Redz have actually played this year.

What about Big Z... LMAO! ^Great piece. Though he should have come to Cleveland...

[peeker643]

We should all feel pretty good in that Ryan Hollins and Samardo Samuels aren't likely to do us like LeBron did.

[mattvan1]

They got him all the players he told them to get and then Milke Brown played the ones he told him to play, and, since nobody can win a title alone (as close as he came to doing it).

So he bailed.

Fixed it for you. The Cavs deserve much if not all of the blame, but not for the reasons you cite. WOA needed a firm hand. The Cavs didn't/couldn't provide it. Pat Riley might.

[Spin]

Now that we have the worst team in any sport in history, it's hard to argue "supporting cast".

Although I sometimes wonder if Brownie wouldn't have won at least a game in January or something.