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Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

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Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:38 pm

Good first quarter.

Up 38-26.

Plenty of time to blow it.

Still baffled that we were 7-10 at one point. Now we're 8-26?
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:40 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:Good first quarter.

Up 38-26.

Plenty of time to blow it.

Still baffled that we were 7-10 at one point. Now we're 8-26?


No shit. How'd they ever win that 8th game?
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:18 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Good first quarter.

Up 38-26.

Plenty of time to blow it.

Still baffled that we were 7-10 at one point. Now we're 8-26?


No shit. How'd they ever win that 8th game?


Outside of the Heat, how many minutes have you actually watched the Cavs? For me it's been like 17 minutes.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:22 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Good first quarter.

Up 38-26.

Plenty of time to blow it.

Still baffled that we were 7-10 at one point. Now we're 8-26?


No shit. How'd they ever win that 8th game?


Outside of the Heat, how many minutes have you actually watched the Cavs? For me it's been like 17 minutes.


I have to write occasional recaps for the site so I've watched way too many. I blame that for my head issues really.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby StewieG » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:23 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Good first quarter.

Up 38-26.

Plenty of time to blow it.

Still baffled that we were 7-10 at one point. Now we're 8-26?


No shit. How'd they ever win that 8th game?


Outside of the Heat, how many minutes have you actually watched the Cavs? For me it's been like 17 minutes.


Real minutes I've watched more. Game minutes? It might be less. I just can't do it.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:43 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Good first quarter.

Up 38-26.

Plenty of time to blow it.

Still baffled that we were 7-10 at one point. Now we're 8-26?


No shit. How'd they ever win that 8th game?


Outside of the Heat, how many minutes have you actually watched the Cavs? For me it's been like 17 minutes.


I have to write occasional recaps for the site so I've watched way too many. I blame that for my head issues really.


That was the night they scored 9 in the 3rd quarter. I had actually already considered that as the cause of your troubles.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:03 pm

I went to one game earlier in the year so thats like 2 and half hours. I watch a game on TV every now and then.

Gilbert's gunna have to lower ticket prices or put a better team on the court because I'm not spending another $40 for upper level seats. At least you can watch the Indians lose for a reasonable price.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:52 pm

Hosting the Raptors on the 2nd night of their back to back is a tall order for any NBA team.

We hate the F'er, but ummmm, it looks like they got the MVP voting right the last couple years.

Come to think of it, it looks like they got it wrong the five years before that.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby papacass » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:07 am

Was at the game tonight. Saw them live for the first time post-LeBron. And I can say this with a fair amount of conviction:

This team loses as much as they do because they play no defense. Yes, the roster is burdened by the defensive shortcomings of Mo and Twan, but they play no team defense. That's on Byron Scott.

This team has offensive talent, and they usually score enough to win. But they constantly give up 100, 105, 110, 115, every game.

Ironically, Mike Brown would be a great coach for this team. They're in desperate need of a coach who preaches Basketball 101 defensive fundamentals. Scott might have been a better coach for the team if they had kept LeBron.

Everything that made Brown the wrong coach for the past couple of years is gone. Everything that made him the right coach when he was hired in '05 has returned. The Cavs are no longer a locker room full of complicated egos in need of a Zen master. They're a band of kids and loose pieces in need of tactical guidance, which was Brown's forte on the defensive end.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:05 am

This is my FUDU Who's Yo Daddy face. Its the Roker Schadenfreude Tour in Comic Sans.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:30 pm

papacass wrote:Was at the game tonight. Saw them live for the first time post-LeBron. And I can say this with a fair amount of conviction:

This team loses as much as they do because they play no defense. Yes, the roster is burdened by the defensive shortcomings of Mo and Twan, but they play no team defense. That's on Byron Scott.

This team has offensive talent, and they usually score enough to win. But they constantly give up 100, 105, 110, 115, every game.

Ironically, Mike Brown would be a great coach for this team. They're in desperate need of a coach who preaches Basketball 101 defensive fundamentals. Scott might have been a better coach for the team if they had kept LeBron.

Everything that made Brown the wrong coach for the past couple of years is gone. Everything that made him the right coach when he was hired in '05 has returned. The Cavs are no longer a locker room full of complicated egos in need of a Zen master. They're a band of kids and loose pieces in need of tactical guidance, which was Brown's forte on the defensive end.


They are awful defensively, but it ain't all due to coaching.

They've got too many guys that are unable to defend their position.

Name your coach. Worst roster in the league.

Brown might get em to 25, while Scott gets em' 20.

Who would care?
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:49 pm

leadpipe wrote:They've got too many guys that are unable to defend their position.


'10-11 Cavs: 103.2 opp PPG
'09-10 Cavs: 95.6 opp PPG

All 'cause of one guy, right?
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:04 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
leadpipe wrote:They've got too many guys that are unable to defend their position.


'10-11 Cavs: 103.2 opp PPG
'09-10 Cavs: 95.6 opp PPG

All 'cause of one guy, right?


I doubt it. Delonte was pretty good at times but he wouldn't account for that all by himself.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby StewieG » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:05 pm

Z was the rock in the middle. Teams were terrified to drive at him.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:18 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
leadpipe wrote:They've got too many guys that are unable to defend their position.


'10-11 Cavs: 103.2 opp PPG
'09-10 Cavs: 95.6 opp PPG

All 'cause of one guy, right?


No, the 40 win difference will be one guy.

But here's what I've learned from the novel idea of watching the games:

To the point, and what I stated, you've got a ton of minutes being played by guys that are awful defenders. Starting with a full year of Jamison. Wanna watch Sessions and let me know when he has an idea. Mo Williams gonna get in front of an opposing point guard this season? Watching Gibson get abused night in and night out. You wanna tell me that Parker hasn't lost a step...or two. How bout the inconsistency in the rotationg spot of suck, which includes Graham, Gee and Eyenga.
Coach Brwon ain't taking that crew to the top of the defensive standings, and he's a great defensive coach.

And the one guy that can defend actually finds himself in rough match-ups because you can only stomach so much of Ryan Hollins at the 5.

So, I know trying to be cute is you MO, with your sincerely's and all, but to the statement you highlighted, would you like to offer anything to the contrary? Or you satisfied with the per usual snipe?

They lost a defense first coach and their best defender, with what's left, it's clear the coach isn't the only reason it's a nightly lay-up line.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby papacass » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:26 pm

leadpipe wrote:They are awful defensively, but it ain't all due to coaching.

They've got too many guys that are unable to defend their position.

Name your coach. Worst roster in the league.

Brown might get em to 25, while Scott gets em' 20.

Who would care?


They're not winning 20. What would a realistic over/under be at this point? 16? We're only six games away from the halfway point.

I was talking more in terms of team defense. It does help if you can have good man defenders, but Mike Brown took a team of what were pretty mediocre-to-bad man-up defenders and had them consistently among the elite team defenses in the league.

Roker's defense was the Pop/Spurs philosophy of help-and-recover. It relied on floor spacing and rotations, bringing help from the weak side to the ball side, sealing off baseline cuts and entry passes into the post. It was really complex, took a long time to learn, probably pissed off more than a few players, but once they learned it, they won games with it.

Roker's D wasn't a zone, but it was less about defending your specific position and more about defending the entire halfcourt as a five-man unit. Of course, it did help to have Ben and Shaq patrolling the paint each of the previous two seasons, where Andy is now. Andy is a physical defender, but he's just not big or strong enough to be the fulltime enforcer in the paint.

I don't even know what Scott's D is. Yeah, this team isn't very good, but they're even worse than they should be, because they just refuse to play any D. Or Scott really doesn't give a flip because he regrets taking the Cavs job. Which I don't think is outside the realm of possibility.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:47 am

papacass wrote:
leadpipe wrote:They are awful defensively, but it ain't all due to coaching.

They've got too many guys that are unable to defend their position.

Name your coach. Worst roster in the league.

Brown might get em to 25, while Scott gets em' 20.

Who would care?


They're not winning 20. What would a realistic over/under be at this point? 16? We're only six games away from the halfway point.

I was talking more in terms of team defense. It does help if you can have good man defenders, but Mike Brown took a team of what were pretty mediocre-to-bad man-up defenders and had them consistently among the elite team defenses in the league.

Roker's defense was the Pop/Spurs philosophy of help-and-recover. It relied on floor spacing and rotations, bringing help from the weak side to the ball side, sealing off baseline cuts and entry passes into the post. It was really complex, took a long time to learn, probably pissed off more than a few players, but once they learned it, they won games with it.

Roker's D wasn't a zone, but it was less about defending your specific position and more about defending the entire halfcourt as a five-man unit. Of course, it did help to have Ben and Shaq patrolling the paint each of the previous two seasons, where Andy is now. Andy is a physical defender, but he's just not big or strong enough to be the fulltime enforcer in the paint.

I don't even know what Scott's D is. Yeah, this team isn't very good, but they're even worse than they should be, because they just refuse to play any D. Or Scott really doesn't give a flip because he regrets taking the Cavs job. Which I don't think is outside the realm of possibility.


I think we agree here Cass. You say; "A team of what were pretty mediocre to bad man-up defenders..." That's what I say. Minus their two best from last season, and adding a full season from about the worst. And, also, you lost the guy that manned up against the other teams best in crunch time.

I also agree about defensive concepts as a whole. Christ, you see enough games you wonder if the thought of denying an entry pass ever entered their minds. It certainly seems like it didn't enter practice. But I would also say this., Roker's complex D, in the modern NBA, is easier to implement if you've got a high goal within sight. You bring that philosophy to this team, as now constructed, and you got guys checkin' out, or in the case of horrible defending vets, never buying in.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:37 pm

I agree that MB would probably be able to squeeze a handful more of wins out of these guys based on his defensive principles. I also agree Scott probably wishes he never took this job, IIRC he and LBJ never spoke before the hiring?

Here's the thing and Larry Brown says it best, defense comes from the inside of the individual, it takes heart and he has to want to do it. If the player needs motivated (particularly to play D), it will be an uphill battle. You can get some guys to buy into it, but many of them will opt out of it from time to time.

We have neither the kind of players who want to play D, nor the kind that can even if they wanted to.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:46 pm

I agree with Lead and Donny. Only add that it seems at least Boobie has that inner drive to do better on D, just lacks the quickness to translate that consistently. Out of our guard rotation he is the best on and off ball defender... Scarry huh. Oh and we are woefully undersized.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby jb » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:52 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Good first quarter.

Up 38-26.

Plenty of time to blow it.

Still baffled that we were 7-10 at one point. Now we're 8-26?


No shit. How'd they ever win that 8th game?


Outside of the Heat, how many minutes have you actually watched the Cavs? For me it's been like 17 minutes.



One game in person, about 5 minuites of a few other games until my retnas started to smoke and I pined for Luke Jackson.
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Re: Going for #9 - Cavs vs Raps

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:27 pm

I watched the first 12-13 virtually in full, then watched about half the next 10, since about 1 hour at most.

The beauty of this whole thing though is they haven't had to intentionally do anything to go become league worst/lottery contender. They sucked from the start and now that injuries have crept in they are beyond suck, that is a good thing for the long term, either for Cleveland hoops or for future hoops in city X.
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