Text Size

Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

The Bucks

Talk Cavs hoops and other items from the NBA here.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, pup, papacass

The Bucks

Unread postby swerb » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:27 pm

Acquire Corey Maggette and the Warriors 2nd round pick for Charlie Bell and Dan Gadzuric.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... ucks062210

Salmons almost sure to leave, but Milwaukee's got a nice little thing going.

Jennings and Maggette inked for the next three years. Love Ilyasova and Mbah a Moute's games. Bogut was having a huge year before the injury. Not sure what they will do with Redd.

And now the Bucks got picks #15, #37, #44, and #47 in this years draft. Which means they got a good chance of coming out of it with Greg Monroe, Cole Aldrich, or one of the UK big men.
"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

http://www.twitter.com/theclevelandfan
User avatar
swerb
JoBu's bee-yotch
 
Posts: 17919
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: Mango Hab
Least Favorite Player: Bob LaMonte

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby papacass » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:36 pm

If Bron spurns both the Cavs and Bulls, Milwaukee's got this division locked up for the next few years.

Unfortunately for Bucks fans, odds are Bron will still be in this division one way or another next season.
User avatar
papacass
 
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:35 am
Location: Fairview Park, OH
Favorite Player: D. Miles jersey
Least Favorite Player: D. Stallworth jersey

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby waborat » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:24 am

I thought MIL was one of the teams the Cavs might try and pry their first round pick from while possibly taking on Maggette's contract?

Guess not...

I think Redd will probably be moved next
User avatar
waborat
 
Posts: 4096
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:04 pm
Location: Concord
Favorite Player: Megyn Kelly
Least Favorite Player: Single digit temps

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby Bayou Tribe » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:49 am

Looks like they've just acquired Chris Douglas-Roberts from the Nets also. Props to their front office for being aggressive. I know CDR has been a bit inconsistent, but he's shown bright spots here and there and definitely has the potential to be a 15 ppg guy in the league. They've become more relevant and more athletic with these last two moves. Someone is pushing the right buttons up there.

ESPN says it is for a 2nd rounder in 2012. Some other sites I've read say it's for #44 in this draft. Either way, it's a nice move IMHO.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5317950
"Dammit you piss me off. I f#ckin hate you and I hope you f#cking get killed by a rabid polar bear you douche bag."

-- TIMMAH to CDT
User avatar
Bayou Tribe
"Rickey wants to play baseball"
 
Posts: 2817
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:47 pm
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Favorite Player: Drew Brees
Least Favorite Player: Steve Smith

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:48 pm

The only thing that could cause a hiccup in beer country is the Skiles hangover. Usually happens in year 2 or 3...
"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby StewieG » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:57 pm

They could get into a case of too many scorers, not enough balls. We'll see.
StewieG
 
Posts: 4043
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:21 pm
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Favorite Player: Delonte MF'in West
Least Favorite Player: LeQuit

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby jb » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:34 am

StewieG wrote:They could get into a case of too many scorers, not enough balls. We'll see.



They also have one of the few coaches who can probably manage that.
jb
 
Posts: 17730
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:08 pm
Location: Defend Youngstown
Favorite Player: Daddy Rich / Carwa$h
Least Favorite Player: Hines Ward

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:23 am

StewieG wrote:They could get into a case of too many scorers, not enough balls. We'll see.


Yeah, two three whole players that can make buckets on that roster at the moment are way too numerous to share balls.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:26 pm

Skiles will be throwing down with Maggette before mid-season. Bogut will get hurt, and the team will rally around Maggette after he is suspended for action detrimental to the team. 5th seed first round exit.
"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:08 pm

Only question beyond injury I have about the Bucks and their awesomeness is centered around your earlier point OJ, will they be the first team that can handle Skiles for a prolonger period of time?
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:24 pm

To be honest I see Skiles as adjusting just enough to make it a non-point. I would think after TWO jobs were the exact same thing happened even the most stubborn guy would adjust, and keep that nice coaching salary. I only see NBA players getting less and less tolerant of hard-ass coaches. Though Jennings and the boys could be the exception.
"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."
User avatar
Orenthal
 
Posts: 4182
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:18 pm
Location: The Midd Heights
Favorite Player: Dan Gilbert
Least Favorite Player: Blacks, Gays, Poor

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby StewieG » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:36 am

And they just signed Drew Gooden.
WojYahooNBA

Y! Sources: Drew Gooden agrees to five year, $32 million deal with the Milwaukee Bucks. http://tinyurl.com/26rcgmn
StewieG
 
Posts: 4043
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:21 pm
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Favorite Player: Delonte MF'in West
Least Favorite Player: LeQuit

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:46 am

God, they're going to be so bad. What a terrible offseason, and it's just started.
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby CP » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:51 am

Drew Gooden for 5 yrs + Scott Skiles = ???????????

Might as well lock down this thread, worst use of cap room ever.
User avatar
CP
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Stow, Ohio
Favorite Player: Bernie Kosar
Least Favorite Player: Colt McCoy

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:58 am

I still like Gooden :hide:
"There is but one thing of real value: to cultivate truth and justice and to live without anger in the midst of lying and unjust men"

-Marcus Aurelius
User avatar
British_Pharaoh
Tony Sipp IS HERE!
 
Posts: 9204
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:31 pm
Location: Prague, Czech Republic
Favorite Player: Michael Brantley
Least Favorite Player: Alexei Ramirez

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:02 am

I'm struggling to figure out who had the worst offseason.

The Pistons last year when they locked themselves into two players long term that will help ensure they finish with the ~10th pick in the draft for the 3 years and that's it...

Or the Bucks, who have a shoot first PG that gets way too much credit around here, even though he shot 37% from the field last season, and will never be a good defender. Teaming him up with a SF like Maggette and a PF like Gooden? Bogut is in basketball purgatory.
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby CP » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:04 am

I like the rumors of Gordon to the Cavs for cap relief. Would only make their offseason from last year that much more perfect.
User avatar
CP
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Stow, Ohio
Favorite Player: Bernie Kosar
Least Favorite Player: Colt McCoy

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby Mr. X » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:23 am

I'm not sure a world where Drew Gooden can still get 5 years for 32 mil is one I want to live in.
User avatar
Mr. X
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:49 pm
Favorite Player: Kipnis
Least Favorite Player: Papelbon

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby swerb » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:04 pm

ajunior148 wrote:I'm struggling to figure out who had the worst offseason.

The Pistons last year when they locked themselves into two players long term that will help ensure they finish with the ~10th pick in the draft for the 3 years and that's it...

Or the Bucks, who have a shoot first PG that gets way too much credit around here, even though he shot 37% from the field last season, and will never be a good defender. Teaming him up with a SF like Maggette and a PF like Gooden? Bogut is in basketball purgatory.

There may never be a worse offseason than 2009 Detroit Pistons.
"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

http://www.twitter.com/theclevelandfan
User avatar
swerb
JoBu's bee-yotch
 
Posts: 17919
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: Mango Hab
Least Favorite Player: Bob LaMonte

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:07 pm

Welp, add JR into the group of people too dense to understand the Jennings is 20, is not shoot first as much as he had no one to pass too and is the first 20 year old rookie PG to not only play D, but call the teams defensive sets in, well, ever.

Maggette is fine on that team, the Bucks only scored on like 11% of their isolation sets last year, Maggette scored on 53% of his by himself. He fills a need.

Gooden is feh, a tradeable contract for whatever production.

There off-season only becomes a debacle if they don't resign Salmons and he goes for similar money to Drew.
Last edited by e0y2e3 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 12:08 pm

BTW: who told you Jennings wasn't a good defender? Anyone that watched him play has serious issues w/ that statement, glad you're still rolling w/ preseason smacks on his game though (preseason, last year that is).
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:18 pm

I've never discussed Jennings with you, so I'm not sure what you are talking about as far as last preseason.

Clearly you love the guy, but I don't see it. 37.1% is garbage, and I watched the kid play. He had Salmons on his team the final 30 games averaging 20 PPG, yet the last two months of the season he didn't improve. And there were teams that were much worse at scoring the ball.

The guy reeks of the classic shoot first, ask questions later PG. Take away his 50+ point game and people aren't nearly as high on him. He'll have his games where he gets 25 points on 9-18 from the field. But those will be sprinkled into the 4-13 games that are far more common.

Sure, he'll improve next season, but I think that team is set up to be the 6-8th seed for the next couple of seasons with a 1st round beating waiting for them. Bogut deserves better.
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:41 pm

Dude, you are sick in the head.

His jumper is smooth and the technique is fine, shooting as bad as he did in the second half of the season was gross, but it didn't ruin his game at all. His dime numbers for a 20 year old rookie were pretty much unheard of as were his steal totals, and you make a ridiculously ignorant statement about his abilities on the defensive side of the court (even Hollinger has written on this and Pelton had him second team all NBA D).

And Salmons was on his team for the last third of the season, while he was mired in his shooting slump. His dime numbers were great and he came back alive in the playoffs.

I don't know if you've ever heard of the rookie wall, but he hit it, hard.

Who on that team is a scorer besides Bogut and a 1/3 of a season of Salmons? Christ, that team was built to play D and nothing else. Ersova was their fucking second option behind Bogut for most of the season. That is just plain terrible.

And also, keep on ignoring that as a 20 year old he managed to call the D on a Skiles team.

Sure that team isn't a title contender, but w/ Melo resigning they decided to fix their weaknesses (getting the ball in the hoop) and try and win a playoffs series or two over the next couple years instead of sitting on their 2011 wad. They almost did win a series last year and will be much better next year unless the team has a Skiles melt down.

As for preseason chatter, that has to be what you are talking about because people called Jennings to small to play D before the season, then he stepped on the court and everyone STFU about his D.

His 55 point game was a curse, no doubt.

I mean, fuck, you act like 20 year old PGs that are their teams leaders on D and O grow on trees.

Saying what you said about his D point blank tells me you never watched him play. Honestly, how many games did you watch and focus on him? A half?

As for his jumper his biggest problem is that he is reliant on scoring from deep because he struggles to finish around the rim if his floater isn't falling (he shot like 20% at the rim and the floater is the hardest shot to master). It's the same problem Aaron Brooks had before he figure out how to work that floater more consistently despite being slight of frame. If Jennings increases his atrocious around the rim totals (which anyone w/ half of a brain figures he will, by a lot, even Rondo got proficient w/ the floater) his shooting % skyrockets from where it is. He's proficient from three and from mid-range. If you are going to have a hole in your game that kills your shooting % having it be w/ in 10 feet of the hoop is where you want it.

You're not just misinformed on Jennings game, you are pretty much blatantly ignorant.

He's no golden god by any means, but for a 20 year old point guard prospect he's pretty fucking solid.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby RickNashEquilibrium » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:12 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Dude, you are sick in the head.

His jumper is smooth and the technique is fine, shooting as bad as he did in the second half of the season was gross, but it didn't ruin his game at all. His dime numbers for a 20 year old rookie were pretty much unheard of as were his steal totals, and you make a ridiculously ignorant statement about his abilities on the defensive side of the court (even Hollinger has written on this and Pelton had him second team all NBA D).

And Salmons was on his team for the last third of the season, while he was mired in his shooting slump. His dime numbers were great and he came back alive in the playoffs.

I don't know if you've ever heard of the rookie wall, but he hit it, hard.

Who on that team is a scorer besides Bogut and a 1/3 of a season of Salmons? Christ, that team was built to play D and nothing else. Ersova was their fucking second option behind Bogut for most of the season. That is just plain terrible.

And also, keep on ignoring that as a 20 year old he managed to call the D on a Skiles team.

Sure that team isn't a title contender, but w/ Melo resigning they decided to fix their weaknesses (getting the ball in the hoop) and try and win a playoffs series or two over the next couple years instead of sitting on their 2011 wad. They almost did win a series last year and will be much better next year unless the team has a Skiles melt down.

As for preseason chatter, that has to be what you are talking about because people called Jennings to small to play D before the season, then he stepped on the court and everyone STFU about his D.

His 55 point game was a curse, no doubt.

I mean, fuck, you act like 20 year old PGs that are their teams leaders on D and O grow on trees.

Saying what you said about his D point blank tells me you never watched him play. Honestly, how many games did you watch and focus on him? A half?

As for his jumper his biggest problem is that he is reliant on scoring from deep because he struggles to finish around the rim if his floater isn't falling (he shot like 20% at the rim and the floater is the hardest shot to master). It's the same problem Aaron Brooks had before he figure out how to work that floater more consistently despite being slight of frame. If Jennings increases his atrocious around the rim totals (which anyone w/ half of a brain figures he will, by a lot, even Rondo got proficient w/ the floater) his shooting % skyrockets from where it is. He's proficient from three and from mid-range. If you are going to have a hole in your game that kills your shooting % having it be w/ in 10 feet of the hoop is where you want it.

You're not just misinformed on Jennings game, you are pretty much blatantly ignorant.

He's no golden god by any means, but for a 20 year old point guard prospect he's pretty fucking solid.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^Rack this. Kid is pretty much better than any PG the Cavs have chucked out there in the entire Lebron era, better yet, the last 12-13 years.
"All Beckett needs to do to cap off this mess is order some fried chicken and beer" – 5/10/12 before Beckett got chased in the 3rd at Fenway.
User avatar
RickNashEquilibrium
Beer, Bitch
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:35 pm
Location: Mentor
Favorite Player: Mexican Cooking
Least Favorite Player: 99% of all humans

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:27 pm

Mo Gotti and Boobie will be far more effective in the triangle than Jennings would be, though.

Wait, Byron who?
Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.
User avatar
Gradysmanldy
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:58 pm
Favorite Player: Melts Parmageddon
Least Favorite Player: The East Coast media

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby Nicastro13 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:28 pm

I agree as well, jennings is a beast in the making and if Bogut doesn't go down they do make noise in the playoffs. I like their team alot, and if Salmons comes back they will be good. The Bucks were my favorite non Cavs team to watch down the stretch, not to mention their ridiculous late season run against the spread, check it out they killed.
User avatar
Nicastro13
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:51 pm
Location: Farrell, PA
Favorite Player: Kyrie
Least Favorite Player: Joe Pittsburgh Fan

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:51 pm

Maybe they can agree to let Salmons take the first 3 months of the season off, so he can come in rampage jackson style in the second half like he's done 2/3 of the last 3 years.
Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.
User avatar
Gradysmanldy
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:58 pm
Favorite Player: Melts Parmageddon
Least Favorite Player: The East Coast media

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:06 pm

e0 I get it, you love the guy, but he is a solid prospect. That's it. Nothing more.

My point earlier was this guy gets way too much credit around here, and your immediate rush to his defense with your gross exaggerations prove that.

You want to say his dime numbers are unheard of for a 20 year old then great. Any retard can check his assists and see that they were solid to good but no where close to what you imply. Here you go, by month:

Oct 6.0 (He played 2 games)
Nov 5.6
Dec 6.5
Jan 6.6
Feb 5.5
Mar 5.1
Apr 4.5

Those numbers are unheard of? Either you are lying or not remembering correctly.

And you want to blame his shooting % to a shooting slump the last third of the year?

Oct 51.61% (Again, he played 2 games)
Nov 42.00%
Dec 37.55%
Jan 32.44%
Feb 30.72%
Mar 38.54%
Apr 36.53%

That's not hitting the rookie wall or being in a shooting slump. It's garbage shooting.

But yeah, exaggerate that stuff then pretend to be right on how good of a defender he is. You haven't lost any credibility here, I'll just take your word as being objective with his defense.
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:09 pm

In case anyone wants to see some unheard of steal totals for a 20 year old, check this out!!!!!!!!111!!!!1

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?playerId=3997

Just do e0 a favor and ignore his pre and post all star fg%.

I mean, the guy put up some unheard of stats, assuming you've never heard of stats.
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:36 pm

The steals #s are meaningless in a discussion of the quality of his defense. AI led the league in steals a few times and no one is calling him a great defensive player. But ajunior, watch Jennings play D. He was definitely an above average, tough defensive player. He's tiny but plays bigger than he is and doesnt seem to have many defensive miscues. Yes, bigger players can have their way with him at times (particularly when he has to try to get around a screen), but he definitely shows promise to be a solid defensive player. I'm not a numbers guy, but his D definitely passes the eye test.
User avatar
CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07!
 
Posts: 1940
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: Brooklyn
Favorite Player: Troy Smith
Least Favorite Player: Braylon/Hughes/Pryor

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:48 pm

I agree that steals don't always mean good defense, but that's not the point. I did watch the guy play a couple of times because of all the hype he got, and I will say I don't see him as ever being a good defender. I could be wrong, but guys that size very rarely are. Again, I'm willing to concede that I could end up being wrong there.

But back to my point, the guy is getting hyped up as a super prospect when he's a solid prospect IMO. Just look at what e0 is trying to do. His assists and steals are no where close to unheard of, even for a 20 year old. The assists are good, but no where close to great.

The guy manages a game well for a demanding coach. I can give him that. Doesn't excuse the 37% from the field, which by no means was a shooting slump. It also means that there is an excellent chance at him regressing under a coach not so demanding.
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:48 pm

Sorry, his shooting dropped post January (about mid January he crushed the wall).

Again, you ignored my arguments on what is causing the problems w/ his shooting %'s (every coach and analyst has said he takes good shots, is not a chucker and has very good form). Averagings 5-6 dimes for a 20 year old that is starting a full year is DAMN hard to do in this league, but you don't seem to care, nor do you acknowledge that he did it on one of the single worst offensive teams in the league, you were stupid enough to say he would never be a good defender (which is just egregious) and now you are hanging on what... his shooting %.

Newsflash, as the kid develops the ability to finish and has to rely less on the outside jump shots (and as his jumper naturally progresses, like everyone in the NBA does that goes into the league at 20) his % is going to go up a ton. That's why when he was in his funk Skiles told him that he was not permitted to stop shooting. There was a huge deal made out of this, because coaches only do it w/ prospects that they no are on the verge of having it all click (see Durant, Kevin and his chuckin in OKC as a rookie).

Skiles and coaches all around the league have said point blank that the most impressive aspect to his game is the fact that he calls the D and leads that team as 20 year old. Kid has a special head and is fearless.

You haven't watched him play, you accepted simple stat line analysis that is bullshit that and you ignored how he actually plays the game. No one, no where will argue that Jennings is not a stud prospect and was good to very good as a rookie last year.

Hollinger actually said that if he had to win a game last year he'd take Jennings of Reke and Curry every single day.

That's the player Jennings is.

But to someone who never watched him play, well, I can understand how seeing beyond his shooting woes is impossible.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:53 pm

And yeah, check his month by month steals and dimes, kid hit the wall, just like most all rookies do.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:57 pm

Quick reply, I'll post more later...

Just so we're clear, you are backing down from the unheard of assists and steals line? But you are going to choose to stay with the lower FG% in January even though he was below 40% from late November on?

And yeah, Hollinger liked him more this May, and made that clear. Also made it clear that Skiles is the driving factor behind that.
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:59 pm

He actually averaged more steals per game post all star than pre, but keep beating that drum.
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:04 pm

What are you talking about, do you really want to show me how many 20 year old PGs have averaged 5.5 dimes and 1.3+ steals a game while starting over 70 games?

I'm trying to find a stat database now, but I'd love you to show me all of these rookie PGs that did it at age 21 and below. It may seem like an easy task because of the freak numbers in this years class but Reke was playing Reke versus Ball, Curry was playing in the stat machine that is GS and Jennings was leading his team to the playoffs while doing it.

And again, Shooting 38-40% for a rookie w/ no ability to finish and no other scoring options on the team beyond Bogut isn't that big of a deal. Spending two months shooting 30% is.

But hey, you keep on trucking. I can start trotting out advanced stats and really break down his FG% by distance if you want and show you exactly what I am saying about his FG%.

Look, the reason I jumped all over you is simple, you didn't watch a guy play and said to yourself 37% FG%, he's overrated.

That's fine, lazy as fuck and unreal since you attached it to "will never be a good defender"

Take your licks and move on. It was lazy as fuck and had no thought behind it.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:04 pm

ajunior148 wrote:He actually averaged more steals per game post all star than pre, but keep beating that drum.


He was at 1.7 per for the season early on and started to trickle downward, and feel free to look at the aberation in December and then notice the steady decline in his steal numbers by month from January down.
Last edited by e0y2e3 on Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:11 pm

Case in point, also, if you want to see the trend as he hit the rookie wall take a look at his 3pt% by month.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:20 pm

And also, since you didn't follow the Bucks you wouldn't know this, but as Jennings hit the wall Ridenour's minutes started to increase, to the point where Jennings had his three lowest MPG months in Feb, March and April (as he started to get his legs and confidence back in April his min bumped up a bit as well).
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:22 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Case in point, also, if you want to see the trend as he hit the rookie wall take a look at his 3pt% by month.


Okay, I'm done proving you wrong. Show me your exaggerations are true. Lets see his 3 point FG% by month, and how many games played.
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:26 pm

Slight spike in March, but the trend is here, clear as day (and I'm only giving you eFG, since it's all that really matters):

http://www.hoopdata.com/splits.aspx?pla ... 20Jennings
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:27 pm

Either way, if you want to turn this into splitting hairs to dodge the fact that you've never watched him play, be my guest, I just gave you his month by month break downs. Go get 'em. Keep in mind minutes, that late Jan and February was the absolute pit of him hitting the wall and losing his confidence and that all of this means nothing because you not giving a fuck about the fact that 20 year old PGs don't come into the league and play the way that he did is all that matters.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:41 pm

“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby CP » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:09 pm

Ehh, I've been on other side of enough arguments with e0y in the last week, but squarely in his corner on this one. Jennings is a target for criticism ever since he did the nasty and went overseas instead of wasting a year of his life at an American college. Was an affront to the conscience of many (whether they admit it or not) and so perceiving him as selfish, or shoot-first, or not a worker on defense is only a natural progression.

Kid's a star in the making and a dynamic playmaker at the point. He's also not the first rookie to struggle with adjustments and things like shot selection, and his frame is wiry enough that him hitting the rookie wall should have been a near-certainty. Not sure Skiles is the right coach for him, though. I think Skiles is going to ride him too hard on petty stuff when he should focus on larger issues. Just not in Skiles' DNA, I don't think.
User avatar
CP
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Stow, Ohio
Favorite Player: Bernie Kosar
Least Favorite Player: Colt McCoy

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:12 pm

I mean, frankly, anyone who looks at the last link I dropped gets my point here (and also should realize how absurd in the influx of PG talent has been the past couple years).

PS: eight players 20 and under have averaged over five dimes a game (while playing 70).
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:18 pm

This is why discussing stuff with you is pointless. You're like a child. You're completely dishonest when it suits you, and it's pointless.

You use the excuse that the low fg% is because he had to do it all himself, yet you don't consider what having the ball in his hands often did to his assists totals. Why is that?

You run your mouth the whole time about how his assists are unheard of as well as his steals, but you then show me a list that uses PPG as a requirement when you could have easily left it off. Why did you add it? Why did you include points but not FG%?

It's because you're dishonest, and using a list that is what you are talking about shows that you were talking out of your ass the whole time. Check it out, I used your criteria minus the PPG, and I extended it to 73-74 since that is when stat heads start off of. There's 30 names on the list, and surprisingly Jennings has the lowest FG%. Didn't see that one coming. Hardly is this unheard of.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1974&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=1&age_min=0&age_max=22&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=70&c2stat=ast_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=5&c3stat=stl_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=1.2&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws

But continue to try and make it look like I didn't watch the guy play when I've said twice I have. I've seen him enough to know what his game is. You want to look for a reason to bitch, so go for it even if it isn't true.

Again, I watched the guy play. I don't think he'll be a good defender. 6'1 guys who are sub 170 lbs aren't usually good defenders.

You admit he can't finish. I agree with that. You say he hit a rookie wall. Even if he did, he was 37.56% from the floor pre all star break. He was 38.2% on 3's pre all star. But continue to pretend like his poor FG% was because of some rookie wall that you want to hide behind.

So we know we have 30 guys who have ~ done what you claimed was unheard of. That's dumb. You know it is.

And that isn't considering that we are in an NBA where we are more PG friendly than the past. That's not questionable, but you will try to discredit it since it doesn't suit you. To you, it's not about knowledge but about winning the argument, and it's sad. It's why you constantly have run ins with people.

My last thing on this subject. If you truly are going to say that his low fg% is because of the poor offensive team he is on, then lets go ahead and lower his PPG a couple points while raising his FG% a couple points.

Check out this guys rookie year. A very close comp, even down to sharing PG duties:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2753

Like I said, this guy is a solid prospect, but lets be honest. He's not near the prospect of other guys who were supposed to be stars like people are claiming.

You can't ignore the fg% because of his usage, while giving him credit for his other stats without considering his usage. It's dishonest, and it's classic e0.
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby ajunior148 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:29 pm

And really, if you want to talk stats that show a much better picture of how efficient this guy was why not just use his PER? The guy finished at 143rd in the league, which is not bad for a rookie, but it is not unheard of.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/page/3
ajunior148
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:17 am

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby RickNashEquilibrium » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:10 pm

ajunior148 wrote:This is why discussing stuff with you is pointless. You're like a child. You're completely dishonest when it suits you, and it's pointless.

You use the excuse that the low fg% is because he had to do it all himself, yet you don't consider what having the ball in his hands often did to his assists totals. Why is that?



Its late, and I just got done working on the laptap at the home office so I might be mistaken, but didn't EO pinpoint the fact that his low FG% was more due to the TYPE of shots taken and not being able to finish at the rim rather than "doing it all himself." Smaller cats in the league need to learn HOW to use their bodies more, especially when undersized. Call it "veteran craftiness". Just sayin'.....
"All Beckett needs to do to cap off this mess is order some fried chicken and beer" – 5/10/12 before Beckett got chased in the 3rd at Fenway.
User avatar
RickNashEquilibrium
Beer, Bitch
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:35 pm
Location: Mentor
Favorite Player: Mexican Cooking
Least Favorite Player: 99% of all humans

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:22 pm

1) I left on PPG because it hurt my argument, here is said Query (and I figured you would be smart enough to figure out to manipulate it) w/ out PPG and sticking w/ the 3point line, which is necessary when evaluating Jennings:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

The names on that list are HUGE. Unheard of to me means doing things as a 20 year old that have no really been done before and his combination of stats hits that, hard.

2) Again, you have ignored his shooting style. He also has one of the top 3 point %'s on both stat lists. That % would have been higher if not for the rookie wall, but he hit it (look at Curry's numbers and the fact that he played a very small roll on his team for half o this season). His shooting style leaves huge room for growth in his %'s. As I said, even a bad shooter like Rondo has figured out how to finish at the rim, it is something small guys often use (I used Aaron Brooks as an example earlier). Seldom has a player ever finished the season (while taking as many shots as Jennings did) finished w/ a higher 3 point % then FG%

3) My point about the rest of his team isn't making an excuse, more so pointing out that on a team that cannot score if a Guy is one of two people that can score for most of the year said guy is going to take more shots then he should be taking. It isn't necessarily that Jennings needs better shot selection, but by default w/ other scorers he is going to bring his dimes up (again, eight people his age over five dimes a game in the 3 point era).

4) Your defense argument is so indefensible it hurts me to believe you actually did watch him. 1) you don't care that he called the D's and O's as a 20 year old rookie, which makes your ability to judge a PG bad to begin w/ and 2) EVERYONE from stat heads to basketball purists to my eyes sees a very good defender. Don't make claims just because of his size, that is ignoring what actually happened and lazy.

5) I already thought about the Felton comp and it being close, then I remembered that after Felton's rookie year most people were HUGELY high on his potential. Guy had a monster rookie year for a PG. That said, he also has always lacked the non-measurables that make Jennings. Jennings is a floor leader and sees the game well enough to call the sets in one of the most complicated D's out there for one of the hardest to play for coaches out there. Felton melts down under pressure and that has always been a huge knock on him and his development stalled hugely when Brown was brought in because of the disciplinarian Brown is, Jennings has already cleared those hurdles w/ Skiles.

5) I have huge issues w/ PER, it talks about offensive efficiency and favors certain types of players (see Marcus Speights). Every year a bunch of so so front court players that hit a few mid-range jumpers crush the PER numbers. It has huge limitations and a guy who cannot finish yet is going to get CRUSHED in that measurement.

6) This isn't me being classic e0, this is my mind being blown mainly because of your ridiculous D statements. Pelton measures the production of all PGs against said PG w/ his stats and PGs average only 86% of there average production against Jennings, which led the league. This was helped by Bogut, because the two of them together makes the two best P & R defense this side of healthy KG and Rondo.

Say whatever you want, I caught you making an absurd statement and you are spinning. That stat list I gave you is absurd and even going back to the start of the shot clock, 30 players that are literally littered w/ HOFers and future HOFs puts his season into absurd categories. And he did it all not by being a stat whore on a bad team, he did it being the leader of a six seed. That just doesn't happen.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: The Bucks

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:24 pm

And how in the fuck do you get assists w/ his roster? Who was he supposed to pass to? Bogut every play?
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Next

Return to Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest