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Goo takes by david falk

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Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby jb » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:57 am

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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:15 am

Goo takes? Are those auditions for pornos?
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby noles1 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:45 pm

Saw this over the weekend, per Windy's twitter.

Agree with Falk on his points, however, it doesn't matter all that much about the reality of it, if the media in the two primary markets has any say. Not to mention ESPN will run the hell out of shit painting it to side with Bron.

Basically that will be Bron's ultimate legacy but it would be swept under the rug, sans Cleveland folks and some writers out there. Instead if he leaves, he'll go to Chicago/NYC, shine and that will be that with them. They'll pedestal him until come playoff time and he throws up anything like he just did. Then Bron will regret the hell out of his decision (ala Manny) until he cashes the next check.

If Bron leaves I am going to be really interested to see what his "team" comes up with in the form of severing ties from Cleveland. This isn't a CC and money situation. This strikes against his "loyalty and team" attitude he has consistently fed the whole media.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:53 pm

noles1 wrote: If Bron leaves I am going to be really interested to see what his "team" comes up with in the form of severing ties from Cleveland. This isn't a CC and money situation. This strikes against his "loyalty and team" attitude he has consistently fed the whole media.


If he goes, his team and 'Bron will have already proven that they really don't give a shit, so I doubt they'll lose any sleep. If he goes, the prepared statement at the presser practically writes itself - "the chance to play with another superstar, like (Wade, Amare, etc)" and/or "the best chance of winning a title".

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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:32 pm

noles1 wrote:If Bron leaves I am going to be really interested to see what his "team" comes up with in the form of severing ties from Cleveland. This isn't a CC and money situation. This strikes against his "loyalty and team" attitude he has consistently fed the whole media.


They'll frame it around the poor coaching, lack of a supporting cast, Ferry not getting him his Robin, etc.

And people will buy it.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:42 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:They'll frame it around the poor coaching, lack of a supporting cast, Ferry not getting him his Robin, etc.

And people will buy it.


Not me. If he bails he will prove he doesn't give a shit about loyalty. It'll make him a liar and a fraud.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby pup » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:18 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:
noles1 wrote:If Bron leaves I am going to be really interested to see what his "team" comes up with in the form of severing ties from Cleveland. This isn't a CC and money situation. This strikes against his "loyalty and team" attitude he has consistently fed the whole media.


They'll frame it around the poor coaching, lack of a supporting cast, Ferry not getting him his Robin, etc.

And people will buy it.


It will be true.

Bullshit that he leaves regardless, but each of those statements is 100% factual.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:46 pm

Benjamin Shoals weighs in

While LeBron is busy planning his inept marketing blitz, Kobe is in the film room breaking down Elgin Baylor and Oscar Robertson, even candidly discussing his relations with Michael Jordan's game. Oh, and he's making the Celtics -- the same ones who punked Bron in some way, shape or form -- look like paper dolls. Simply put, James is a circus show while Bryant is knee-deep in ultimate basketball. If James can't see it's time to fall back for a week or two, either he's on another planet -- the modern-day Wilt for sure -- or really does think of basketball as secondary to himself as a corporate entity.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:58 pm

National media is just killing LeBron over this tour. As well they should. From the looks of it LRMR is pretty much Entourage without Ari. Randy Mims even looks a little like Turtle.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:39 pm

Plenty of talent to get it done this year. Coaching decisions, individual players giving up, injury, but no way talent...
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:09 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Benjamin Shoals weighs in

While LeBron is busy planning his inept marketing blitz, Kobe is in the film room breaking down Elgin Baylor and Oscar Robertson, even candidly discussing his relations with Michael Jordan's game. Oh, and he's making the Celtics -- the same ones who punked Bron in some way, shape or form -- look like paper dolls. Simply put, James is a circus show while Bryant is knee-deep in ultimate basketball. If James can't see it's time to fall back for a week or two, either he's on another planet -- the modern-day Wilt for sure -- or really does think of basketball as secondary to himself as a corporate entity.


Paper Dolled right into an 8-20 disaster in Game 2.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby jb » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:14 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Benjamin Shoals weighs in

While LeBron is busy planning his inept marketing blitz, Kobe is in the film room breaking down Elgin Baylor and Oscar Robertson, even candidly discussing his relations with Michael Jordan's game. Oh, and he's making the Celtics -- the same ones who punked Bron in some way, shape or form -- look like paper dolls. Simply put, James is a circus show while Bryant is knee-deep in ultimate basketball. If James can't see it's time to fall back for a week or two, either he's on another planet -- the modern-day Wilt for sure -- or really does think of basketball as secondary to himself as a corporate entity.



Hasthe feel of some lazy cheap shots, even if the sentiment may ring somewhat true. Most bloggers blow.

Kobe actually worked his ass of with The Rifleman on improving his already great shot with a busted digit, not all that mumbo jumbo about offering fallatios to past icons. Fact that has been proven time over? Kobe could give a damn about anyone butt Kobe.

Bron had Chris Jent. :lmfao:
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:46 am

jb wrote:Bron had Chris Jent. :lmfao:


LeBron isn't stuck with Chris Jent. He can call on other guys any time he wants. No reason he can't.

Kobe worked with Hakeem last summer on improving with his back to the basket. Why isn't LeBron reaching out to Hakeem? What's he got going on this summer?

LeBron simply doesn't care enough to get better. That's why he essentially hasn't gotten better since he entered the league seven years ago.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:10 am

hermanfontenot wrote:
jb wrote:Bron had Chris Jent. :lmfao:


LeBron isn't stuck with Chris Jent. He can call on other guys any time he wants. No reason he can't.

Kobe worked with Hakeem last summer on improving with his back to the basket. Why isn't LeBron reaching out to Hakeem? What's he got going on this summer?

LeBron simply doesn't care enough to get better. That's why he essentially hasn't gotten better since he entered the league seven years ago.


By what are you measuring this lack of improvement?
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:14 am

pup wrote:
hermanfontenot wrote:
jb wrote:Bron had Chris Jent. :lmfao:


LeBron isn't stuck with Chris Jent. He can call on other guys any time he wants. No reason he can't.

Kobe worked with Hakeem last summer on improving with his back to the basket. Why isn't LeBron reaching out to Hakeem? What's he got going on this summer?

LeBron simply doesn't care enough to get better. That's why he essentially hasn't gotten better since he entered the league seven years ago.


By what are you measuring this lack of improvement?


Titles would be my guess. But I can't speak for the dude.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:16 pm

pup wrote:By what are you measuring this lack of improvement?


He still doesn't even have a semblance of a post game.

For all the talk of how much better a shooter he's become, he's still sub-40% from outside when he faces an elite defensive team in the postseason.

And as CDT says, no titles.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:24 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:
jb wrote:Bron had Chris Jent. :lmfao:


LeBron isn't stuck with Chris Jent. He can call on other guys any time he wants. No reason he can't.

Kobe worked with Hakeem last summer on improving with his back to the basket. Why isn't LeBron reaching out to Hakeem? What's he got going on this summer?

LeBron simply doesn't care enough to get better. That's why he essentially hasn't gotten better since he entered the league seven years ago.
I'm sorry Herm but objectivity seems to disappear from your posts the further along this off season goes. Exactly how isn't LeBron better than 7 years ago, or even 3 years ago? His outside shot IS better, one might argue he is a streak shooter (which is fair) but his outside shot in his first two years simply wasn't as good as it is now. His post game needs work sure, but more so it just needs more use, I won't argue that being a legit place to nit pick the guy. If anything the area that he has ignored the most IMO is from the FT line, which IMO is inexcusable at this point, for a player of his stature. Otherwise it is hard to argue the fact that the guy is a better basketball player than he was at age 20 & 21.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:02 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:
pup wrote:By what are you measuring this lack of improvement?


He still doesn't even have a semblance of a post game.

For all the talk of how much better a shooter he's become, he's still sub-40% from outside when he faces an elite defensive team in the postseason.

And as CDT says, no titles.


Opposed to all the stars that have lit up Boston this year. What is everyone going to say when Kobe's final line looks a lot like LBJ's did?

Put LeBron on any of the other Top 6 teams in the NBA and there is no question who the best player is and who the winner of the Finals is. Put him with with bunch of Caspers and he sucks. Brilliant.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:24 pm

If LeBron had such bad personnel around him the Cavaliers would still be a 50-win team like they were in 2006 and '07.

You don't win 127 games in two years with a bunch of humps.

He had the team to get it done this year and he couldn't even get out of the second round. He was at best the third-best player in the Boston series behind Rondo and Garnett.

Unacceptable and inexcusable.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:04 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:That's why he essentially hasn't gotten better since he entered the league seven years ago.


::doh::

Other than offensively and defensively I'd say you're dead nuts right.

Look, he hasn't gotten better with his back to the basket, but don't impugn your own credibility with that spew that's based in your personal dislike for the guy.

Don't make me haul out that link again with 10 HoFers talking about the growth of his game and how much better he's gotten. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:59 pm

hermanfontenot wrote:If LeBron had such bad personnel around him the Cavaliers would still be a 50-win team like they were in 2006 and '07.

You don't win 127 games in two years with a bunch of humps.

He had the team to get it done this year and he couldn't even get out of the second round. He was at best the third-best player in the Boston series behind Rondo and Garnett.

Unacceptable and inexcusable.


How did those 60 win players provide support during either of the meltdowns you speak of? You really going to tell me Mo God Damn Williams was the same player in the second season in either of the last 2 years that he was the first 80 some?

Did LeBron break Jamison's wrist and I didn't notice? Did he steal Delonte's meds? Christ.

You want to make a case. Anthony Parker was the second best Cavalier in the Boston series. Anthony Parker showed up above anyone else. But no, you are pissed cause LBJ might leave and you want to make yourself OK with it so you have made up shit like he has not improved in 7 years, yet he is now an All Defesive First Teamer and every flippin statistical measure has increased. You are right Herm. Can't wait to go cheer for Jawadd Williams 40 times next year.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:51 pm

LeBron has perfected the art of making bad guys look and good guys look bad.

He has made Mo Williams a worse player. He turned Jamison into an absolute non-factor.

LeBron is great. But he is not a PG, no matter how much he wants to think it. And until he realizes that, or is forced into changing his style, his teams will come up short unless they have an overwhelming talent advantage. Sure, the Cavs looked out-classed against Boston, but that's what happens when the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players' strengths are on offense and they are squashed to 40% of themselves by the ego of a King.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby swerb » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:24 pm

LeBron has clearly improved over the last 7 years. His first 4-5 years in the league, he'd pick one thing each off-season to really focus on. The one year it was his 3 point shooting. Then his defense. Another year it was his free throw shooting. All three aspects have improved significantly over his career.

But these last couple years, outside of his becoming more viable defensively due to him growing into his body, getting better in the passing lanes and on the chasedowns, and more frequently requesting the tough 4Q defensive assignments (not against Rondo though) ... he hasn't improved like I thought he would, with the Celts series as Exhibits A, B, C, D, E, and F.

And the fact he just won't post anyone up is befuddling. Especially since he's so frequently checked by stringbean quick wing guys.

And LeBron is no point guard. Settles for way too many jumpers for someone with his gifts and burst. It's maddening. Like he's saving himself. I thought this season, he was saving himself. For that game 5 vs the C's. Then he no showed it, settled for jumpers, and played like he was anxious for the season to end so he could get to Cabo.

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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:42 pm

swerb wrote:LeBron has clearly improved over the last 7 years. His first 4-5 years in the league, he'd pick one thing each off-season to really focus on. The one year it was his 3 point shooting. Then his defense. Another year it was his free throw shooting. All three aspects have improved significantly over his career.


FT%
Year 1: 75.4
2: 75
3: 73.8
4: 69.8
5: 71.2
6: 78
7: 76.7

3pt%
1: 29
2: 35.1
3: 33.5
4: 31.9
5: 31.5
6: 34.4
7: 33.3

I would argue his defensive improvement is just a result of experience, and not any specific work. I am more inclined to lean toward Herm's view that LeBron does not put in nearly enough work, as everything comes so easy for him. In fact, I believe I've mentioned previously that his "work on one thing every offseason" is nonsense propaganda, likely put out by LeBron.

LeBron is better than he was as a rookie on offense. He is better than he was as a fourth year player on defense (his 5th year was when his defense started showing true elite qualities, and his 6th was when he took it to a consistent level), but he is worse than he was as a 6th year player on defense.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:49 pm

I will say I thought LeBron had turned it on 3pt shooting wise the second half of 08-09. He maintained it for 12 months, from Feb 09 to Jan 10, then returned to his normal level.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby jb » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:49 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
swerb wrote:LeBron has clearly improved over the last 7 years. His first 4-5 years in the league, he'd pick one thing each off-season to really focus on. The one year it was his 3 point shooting. Then his defense. Another year it was his free throw shooting. All three aspects have improved significantly over his career.


FT%
Year 1: 75.4
2: 75
3: 73.8
4: 69.8
5: 71.2
6: 78
7: 76.7

3pt%
1: 29
2: 35.1
3: 33.5
4: 31.9
5: 31.5
6: 34.4
7: 33.3

I would argue his defensive improvement is just a result of experience, and not any specific work. I am more inclined to lean toward Herm's view that LeBron does not put in nearly enough work, as everything comes so easy for him. In fact, I believe I've mentioned previously that his "work on one thing every offseason" is nonsense propaganda, likely put out by LeBron.

LeBron is better than he was as a rookie on offense. He is better than he was as a fourth year player on defense (his 5th year was when his defense started showing true elite qualities, and his 6th was when he took it to a consistent level), but he is worse than he was as a 6th year player.



Ouch.

I thought Jesse was just a jilted POS take, but you are making his case. Very little improvement by this measure.

As for his redicul;ous on-the-blocks take, I know that if my team signed Shaq the VERY FIRST THING I'd do is ace my blocks game. That way we could play together on the right AND the left blocks together.

:pb: :pb: :pb: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:51 pm

Check out his 3 pt splits for 08-09 and 09-10. Amazing how this was literally a one year phenomenon:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... 09&sType=3
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=1966
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:59 pm

Steals are up, rebounds are up, blocks are up, points are up, fg% is 25% higher this year than as a rookie, everything is better than when he arrived in the league.

Essentially, actually and in reality that is improvement.

To say he hasn't gotten better is simply ridiculous regardless of how you frame it. I understand the disgust. I feel it like everyone else. But it doesn't change the above.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:10 pm

peeker643 wrote:Steals are up, rebounds are up, blocks are up, points are up, fg% is 25% higher this year than as a rookie, everything is better than when he arrived in the league.

Essentially, actually and in reality that is improvement.

To say he hasn't gotten better is simply ridiculous regardless of how you frame it. I understand the disgust. I feel it like everyone else. But it doesn't change the above.
aoxo1 wrote:LeBron is better than he was as a rookie on offense. He is better than he was as a fourth year player on defense (his 5th year was when his defense started showing true elite qualities, and his 6th was when he took it to a consistent level), but he is worse than he was as a 6th year player on defense.

Check out his progression in any category from Year 2 to Year 7 if you want to talk about stats telling the tale.

He is a better 20 foot shooter. He has added the chase down block to his arsenal. He is smarter on defense (what player doesn't get better on defense, barring the empty headers?), which is actually why his steals are down since Y2. Again, I stand by my take that he has made very little progress on the offensive end (he is a better shooter from 20 feet, although if that is what he has worked on instead of his midrange game or a post game then it is hard to disagree with Herm's lack of a BBIQ take).
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby jb » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:19 pm

peeker643 wrote:Steals are up, rebounds are up, blocks are up, points are up, fg% is 25% higher this year than as a rookie, everything is better than when he arrived in the league.



Bron's short term kow tow routine + Ferry's "Meh" GM Job = Signing w/ Chicago his title chances will be up.


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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby pup » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:44 am

Cannot wait until we are rid of this non-improving stiff.

Jawaad Time Baby!

Oh. And don't forget about the righteous he makes good players worse. He must have stolen Mo's Mojo right before the playoffs. Have YOU ever seen LBJ and Dr. Evil at the same time/same place?

Whatever sucker pays this guy is sooooo screwed.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:09 am

jb wrote:Bron's short term kow tow routine + Ferry's "Meh" GM Job = Signing w/ Chicago his title chances will be up.


:hide:


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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:10 am

pup wrote:Cannot wait until we are rid of this non-improving stiff.

Jawaad Time Baby!

Oh. And don't forget about the righteous he makes good players worse. He must have stolen Mo's Mojo right before the playoffs. Have YOU ever seen LBJ and Dr. Evil at the same time/same place?

Whatever sucker pays this guy is sooooo screwed.


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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:01 am

pup wrote:Cannot wait until we are rid of this non-improving stiff.

Jawaad Time Baby!

Oh. And don't forget about the righteous he makes good players worse. He must have stolen Mo's Mojo right before the playoffs. Have YOU ever seen LBJ and Dr. Evil at the same time/same place?

Whatever sucker pays this guy is sooooo screwed.

Heaven forbid someone criticize LeBron. It obviously means we think he sucks and that he destroyed the golden years of the Cavs, which are sure to return when he walks.

Dude can be simultaneously the best, most talented player in the association (or at least amongst them), and still be subject to this. Thing is, by his 2nd year he was already amongst that group.

But yeah, LBJ made Mo and Jamo so much better. Why, their games have expanded beyond all bounds since joining the Cavs. They haven't seen large parts of their arsenals lopped off at all.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:10 am

aoxo1 wrote:Heaven forbid someone criticize LeBron. It obviously means we think he sucks and that he destroyed the golden years of the Cavs, which are sure to return when he walks.

Dude can be simultaneously the best, most talented player in the association (or at least amongst them), and still be subject to this. Thing is, by his 2nd year he was already amongst that group.

But yeah, LBJ made Mo and Jamo so much better. Why, their games have expanded beyond all bounds since joining the Cavs. They haven't seen large parts of their arsenals lopped off at all.



Easy now. You're starting to act like LBJ and pout about getting called out. ;-) ;) :wink:

How many All Star appearances did Mo have before last season's? And you gonna tell me with a straight face that Mo is taking more contested shots playing with LBJ? He's getting worse looks? Or did he have a hard time hitting the floor when he dropped a ball for a chunk of last season (when he wasn't hurt). His defensive issues are his own. They just actually get exposed when your club actually reaches the playoffs and you face other talented players.

LBJ made him worse? Really? He was a fine PG and offensive facililitator before he got to Cleveland? He wasn't a shooter first? Shit, I must have missed his dishing and distributing days in Milwaukee. This just keeps getting better and better.

Jamo played here for five minutes dude. I'm thinking you should hang Shaq's reduced minutes and numbers on the MVP's regression. :hide:

Here we go with the famed TCF black and white crap again. No gray round here.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:29 am

LBJ turned Mo into a spot up jump shooter for extended lengths of time, removing a large part of his game. How is that even under dispute? Jamo is an extremely talented offensive player, and yet the ball wasn't finding him for those same extended lengths of time.

Either guys repeatedly lose their shit, year after year, when playing with LeBron in the playoffs, or his penchant for pounding the rock and stagnating the offense is hurting their games. We've all complained about it before, so why so hesitant to take the next step and acknowledge that maybe there is more to making guys better than getting them some open jumpers? And when he isn't even doing that, because he just stands there letting the defense tilt over and get set for the first 20s of the shot clock?
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:51 am

aoxo1 wrote:LBJ turned Mo into a spot up jump shooter for extended lengths of time, removing a large part of his game. How is that even under dispute? Jamo is an extremely talented offensive player, and yet the ball wasn't finding him for those same extended lengths of time.

Either guys repeatedly lose their shit, year after year, when playing with LeBron in the playoffs, or his penchant for pounding the rock and stagnating the offense is hurting their games. We've all complained about it before, so why so hesitant to take the next step and acknowledge that maybe there is more to making guys better than getting them some open jumpers? And when he isn't even doing that, because he just stands there letting the defense tilt over and get set for the first 20s of the shot clock?


http://numbersdont.com/?p=2184

Jamison shot 50% in March and April but 42% in May against Boston. Garnett had nothing at all to do with it in what was widely agreed to be a horrific matchup for Jamison?

You think it's LBJ that caused Mo's problems against the quicker and better guards he saw in Orlando in '08 and in Chicago/Boston in '09? Mo's offense didn't suffer at all because his defense was non-existent and he had a tougher time getting looks?

C'mon. You wanna talk about what a vile, despicable quit-job 23 laid on his teammates and coaches and fans I'm right there with ya. You wanna talk about his immaturity and ego dominating the news today and I'm there as well.

But don't tell me he's not a better basketball player today than he was 7 years ago and that guys don't benefit from his game (when he actually plays it). Because that's an ignorant statement. Point blank. I'm sorry but it is.

And if people think this team , this franchise and this city are better with him playing somewhere else that's equally as crazy.

Said it before and I'll say it again: few peers when the clock is running. Love him during that time. I have no use for him when the clock is stopped.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby pup » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:17 am

aoxo1 wrote:LBJ turned Mo into a spot up jump shooter for extended lengths of time, removing a large part of his game. How is that even under dispute? Jamo is an extremely talented offensive player, and yet the ball wasn't finding him for those same extended lengths of time.

Either guys repeatedly lose their shit, year after year, when playing with LeBron in the playoffs, or his penchant for pounding the rock and stagnating the offense is hurting their games. We've all complained about it before, so why so hesitant to take the next step and acknowledge that maybe there is more to making guys better than getting them some open jumpers? And when he isn't even doing that, because he just stands there letting the defense tilt over and get set for the first 20s of the shot clock?


No. Mo turned himself into a spot up jump shooter.

I got no problem with turning a critical eye to LeBron. I got a problem with turning a critical eye on him, while excusing the piss poor results of this roster. I got a problem with someone explaining that the same sets and offense that allow Mo to shoot it at 44% from the floor and 43% from beyond the arc for 82 games also makes him shoot it at 40 and 21 in the playoffs.

The losses are on the entire organization. All I am sayin.

now we can fix it by making moves with the most talented player in the world involved, or by trying to replace that cat. At the end of the day, the only thing that will matter is his staying in Cleveland. Then a title is possible, but he needs better help. Still. If he is gone, so is that possibility for the foreseeable future.

Mo
West
Jawaad
Jamison
Andy

aint winning 30 games.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:13 pm

peeker643 wrote:But don't tell me he's not a better basketball player today than he was 7 years ago and that guys don't benefit from his game (when he actually plays it). Because that's an ignorant statement. Point blank. I'm sorry but it is.

And if people think this team , this franchise and this city are better with him playing somewhere else that's equally as crazy.

Said it before and I'll say it again: few peers when the clock is running. Love him during that time. I have no use for him when the clock is stopped.

Do I really need to requote and rebold myself, again?

And I stand by my statement that he takes away from the games of skilled players, as they are forced to conform to his pound the floor style. He makes a Jawad look better than he is, but he also makes Jamo, Mo, whoever look worse when he shifts into that mode in the playoffs. You want to call that "not playing his game", fine, but he has been doing it every year now for going on a decade soon.

No one except Herm is saying we are better off without him. Not my take.
pup wrote:No. Mo turned himself into a spot up jump shooter.

I got no problem with turning a critical eye to LeBron. I got a problem with turning a critical eye on him, while excusing the piss poor results of this roster. I got a problem with someone explaining that the same sets and offense that allow Mo to shoot it at 44% from the floor and 43% from beyond the arc for 82 games also makes him shoot it at 40 and 21 in the playoffs.

Except that LeBron, or the coaching staff, distorts the offense and they don't run the same system in the playoffs.
pup wrote:The losses are on the entire organization. All I am sayin.

now we can fix it by making moves with the most talented player in the world involved, or by trying to replace that cat. At the end of the day, the only thing that will matter is his staying in Cleveland. Then a title is possible, but he needs better help. Still. If he is gone, so is that possibility for the foreseeable future.

Mo
West
Jawaad
Jamison
Andy

aint winning 30 games.

I don't disagree with any of that, except that I think the help was good enough this year if he was who we thought he was. But he isn't, so they need more. And even that might not be enough unless he changes how he plays when the pressure comes.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby pup » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:36 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:But don't tell me he's not a better basketball player today than he was 7 years ago and that guys don't benefit from his game (when he actually plays it). Because that's an ignorant statement. Point blank. I'm sorry but it is.

And if people think this team , this franchise and this city are better with him playing somewhere else that's equally as crazy.

Said it before and I'll say it again: few peers when the clock is running. Love him during that time. I have no use for him when the clock is stopped.

Do I really need to requote and rebold myself, again?

And I stand by my statement that he takes away from the games of skilled players, as they are forced to conform to his pound the floor style. He makes a Jawad look better than he is, but he also makes Jamo, Mo, whoever look worse when he shifts into that mode in the playoffs. You want to call that "not playing his game", fine, but he has been doing it every year now for going on a decade soon.

No one except Herm is saying we are better off without him. Not my take.
pup wrote:No. Mo turned himself into a spot up jump shooter.

I got no problem with turning a critical eye to LeBron. I got a problem with turning a critical eye on him, while excusing the piss poor results of this roster. I got a problem with someone explaining that the same sets and offense that allow Mo to shoot it at 44% from the floor and 43% from beyond the arc for 82 games also makes him shoot it at 40 and 21 in the playoffs.

Except that LeBron, or the coaching staff, distorts the offense and they don't run the same system in the playoffs.
pup wrote:The losses are on the entire organization. All I am sayin.

now we can fix it by making moves with the most talented player in the world involved, or by trying to replace that cat. At the end of the day, the only thing that will matter is his staying in Cleveland. Then a title is possible, but he needs better help. Still. If he is gone, so is that possibility for the foreseeable future.

Mo
West
Jawaad
Jamison
Andy

aint winning 30 games.

I don't disagree with any of that, except that I think the help was good enough this year if he was who we thought he was. But he isn't, so they need more. And even that might not be enough unless he changes how he plays when the pressure comes.


So. Since winning games at the pressure points is all that really matters at the end of the day, we are better off without him and some poor sucker is going to get stuck with LeBron James.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:44 pm

aoxo1
Do I really need to requote and rebold myself, again?


Noooo. It was useless the first time in the context of what was being discussed. He's either better than when he came into the league 7 years ago or he's not. It's extremely simple since that was the very basis of the conversation that's led us here.

aoxo1
And I stand by my statement that he takes away from the games of skilled players, as they are forced to conform to his pound the floor style. He makes a Jawad look better than he is, but he also makes Jamo, Mo, whoever look worse when he shifts into that mode in the playoffs. You want to call that "not playing his game", fine, but he has been doing it every year now for going on a decade soon.


The bloom returned to Larry Hughes's rose as soon as he escaped the shadow LBJ cast as well I guess. Maybe Mo brings more than Hughes, but again, Mo was one dimensional when he got here. He'll be one-dimensional when he leaves. And again, Jamo was here for 5 minutes with LBJ. He was perfectly fine for all of that time until his matchup issues against the Celtics. If that's LBJ's fault for not putting him in a position to beat a taller and longer Garnett then so be it. Perhaps he needs to play with a guy like Gilbert Arenas who doesn't dominate the ball and facilitates so well for others.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:05 pm

peeker643 wrote:aoxo1
Do I really need to requote and rebold myself, again?


Noooo. It was useless the first time in the context of what was being discussed. He's either better than when he came into the league 7 years ago or he's not. It's extremely simple since that was the very basis of the conversation that's led us here.

You mean the context of how he spent the first 5 years in the league improving something every year? That context?
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:06 pm

pup wrote:So. Since winning games at the pressure points is all that really matters at the end of the day, we are better off without him and some poor sucker is going to get stuck with LeBron James.

Really? This is what you keep coming back with, but clearly it's not what I am suggesting.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:28 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:aoxo1
Do I really need to requote and rebold myself, again?


Noooo. It was useless the first time in the context of what was being discussed. He's either better than when he came into the league 7 years ago or he's not. It's extremely simple since that was the very basis of the conversation that's led us here.

You mean the context of how he spent the first 5 years in the league improving something every year? That context?


Dude, you can continue to condescend to your heart's content. I personally don't give a shit. But mix in something of substance while you look down.

Please address why Larry Hughes was as much a joke after he left as when he was here. Please address how Mo Williams was anything other than one dimensional prior to arriving here and will be when he leaves. Please address how Gil Arenas pounding the floor with the ball for five years in Washington killed the game of Antawn Jamison. Please address why Jamison shot 50% in March and April while LeBron made things so difficult for him and how the Garnett size and length didn't bother him.

I mean, you keep telling us how LBJ kills talented players. Is it possible that you deem them to be talented because of James (Hughes) or maybe they're not as talented as you think they are (Mo) or maybe it was actually the talented player's shortcomings and issues that caused them to fall on their face in a given series (Jamison).

Yeah, he pounds the ball too much and is whiny, pouting, diva bitch. The guys you named still thrived in that environment until the Celtics series when James truly stood around and then quit.

Give us something aside from your unsubstantial one sentence replies that as often as not end in a question. Shake yourself. Or don't. Seriously, it doesn't matter. I really don't care.

If I look hard enough round here I can find a discussion as opposed to a snippet from the Mount where you give us headlines and support it with air.

Educate us. ;-) ;) :wink:

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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:03 pm

Said this a thousand times, but by the end of his career, for reasons that are obvious, Lebron James is going to create more wide open shots than any player in the history of the game.

That has to count for something. That has to make SOMEONE better. Or, at the very least, it's hard to make them worse. As Peeker alludes to, nobody has "escaped" the hell that is playing alongside Lebron yet, and gone onto NBA stardom. Hell, for a good many Damon Jones like stiffs it's the end of their NBA days.

That's not to say there aren't guys that could have their games affected by the guy, but Christ, now it's like the guy is some sort of pariah as a teammate.

Lastly, it's funny how everyone who says something positive about Lebron is blowing him. Save that line for people that don't support their claims.

At the end of the day, I think Lebron is going to win championships, whether he's here or not. I'd rather it be here.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:05 pm

peeker643 wrote:I mean, you keep telling us how LBJ kills talented players.


Now now Mr. Shades of Gray. I don't think kills is the right word. I think aoxo said, "takes away", and I agree completely. While far from the only reason (gray) we lost for the second straight year unexpectedly, our offensive gameplan is uninspired.

A large part of this is James, and IMO the regular season doesn't mean poop. Witness 08-09's inability to beat elite teams. I would say, of the multitude of issues with the Cavaliers, the pound the ball into the ground at the 3pt line, creating a 1 vs 5 drive and kick, is the most devastating.

aoxo isn't the only one that brings up this issue. Chuck Barkley and e0 <- :thumb up: have been saying for years we need LeBron off the ball. How many times have people here screamed for a true Point Guard. The issue is whether the LeIso inseperable from LeBron.

Also it was spelled out in the exchange that no one thinks we are better without James. It's the reactionaries that are being black and white.

huh
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:17 pm

Orenthal wrote:
peeker643 wrote:I mean, you keep telling us how LBJ kills talented players.


Now now Mr. Shades of Gray. I don't think kills is the right word. I think aoxo said, "takes away", and I agree completely. While far from the only reason (gray) we lost for the second straight year unexpectedly, our offensive gameplan is uninspired.

A large part of this is James, and IMO the regular season doesn't mean poop. Witness 08-09's inability to beat elite teams. I would say, of the multitude of issues with the Cavaliers, the pound the ball into the ground at the 3pt line, creating a 1 vs 5 drive and kick, is the most devastating.

aoxo isn't the only one that brings up this issue. Chuck Barkley and e0 <- :thumb up: have been saying for years we need LeBron off the ball. How many times have people here screamed for a true Point Guard. The issue is whether the LeIso inseperable from LeBron.

Also it was spelled out in the exchange that no one thinks we are better without James. It's the reactionaries that are being black and white.

huh



That's fine. I hear ya on all that. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water and don't tell me he hasn't improved since he came into the league which is what the basis of this discussion is...ummm...based on. He's improved in nearly facet. And there's a very distinct possibility that the guys who have been put out around him like Mo, Larry Hughes, etc, et al are not good enough and have not found their way to the point where LBJ trusts them. Especially Mo against quicker guards. There's a distinct possibility it all rested on his shoulders again this post season.

Get him a point guard and a coach who will dictate tempo and see where it goes. It seems to me that people are being way too quick to condemn the guy for doing what many of us thought was the prudent thing for him to do for years when he absolutely had no choice: dominate the ball.

Get him that PG in an offense that benefits him and pile on if he wets the bed then. That would seem to be rational and fair. If he wants to pout and play keep away then it will be abundantly clear that he cares only about himself and not those rings.

Or name me the guy in the last 7 years more capable of facilitating any offense . Either way... ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:20 pm

Boozer? Flip Murray? Sample size I know. Even finding people who would be legitimate to compare is near impossible. Prior to 08-09 and 09-10 the talent has mostly been almost faded veterans, or bit players. To me it seems more or less the team has been a one man show. This damn kid was surrounded by shit for the first five years.

In thinking of the players that have come and go only Hughes had a bonafide year before coming here that has left. I wouldn't dream of using him as an example. One contract year, plenty of underwhemling otherwise.

Mo Williams has a pretty consistent stat line before and during if I remember correctly, and Jamison isn't going anywhere. Shannon Brown was never given a chance, but probably has peaked with the Lakers, and would hardly have been missed.

The question isn't so simple to answer. Try finding people that have become THAT much better since coming here...

Damon Jones had a pretty good year in Miami playing off Shaq and Wade. :thud:
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:26 pm

To save on quote boxes, I probably agree 100% with what you are saying Peeks. I don't think anyone advocates for blowing James, or throwing him off the team. I thought the take that he hasn't improved since coming into the league, or doesn't improve year to year, was Herm's not aoxo's? That take shouldn't be given any legitimacy.

It's not LeBron killin' or kill LeBron. It's gray, but damn if this soap oprea bullshit doesn't get me closer to murder.
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Re: Goo takes by david falk

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:32 pm

Boozer was here when James was a baby and he's actually more in the Varejao camp. By that I mean he had no plays called for him here and hustled and muscled his way to whatever he got til he left. Drew Gooden comes to mind as a guy that clearly benefitted from James when Gooden was willing. There simply haven't been any stars along side him. That's my point in a nutshell. You'll have to wait for Varejao to go elsewhere or Z to go elsewhere (although he's been and will be a corpse for a few years now) to get a better gauge.

Jesus, when you look back at those names and teams it's a wonder they are where they are. He's always had 'just a guy' next to him and around him. Role players, one year wonders and young, raw guys like JJ.

And not one of the guards has been even remotely considered a distributor or facilitator.

It's effing depressing when you look at it.
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