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Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

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Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun May 16, 2010 9:44 am

From today's PD:

It was the Cavs' undoing, after their ouster by Orlando last year, to concentrate all their moves on countering the Magic's center, Dwight Howard, and his multipurpose wingman, Rashard Lewis. They acquired Shaquille O'Neal and Antawn Jamison to match up with Howard and Lewis, but they never got to play Orlando to see if it would work. That was because O'Neal and Jamison are defensive liabilities, and Boston exploited them ruthlessly.....

"I just don't think we were playing well at the end of the regular season," said Ferry. He cited as contributing factors the idleness of O'Neal until the playoffs began with a thumb injury and -- finally admitting it -- the benching of James in the final four games of the regular season to try to quiet his right elbow.
Brown was handed a team in which Jamison and O'Neal had never played together as starters until the postseason. That was a tough adjustment....

But Brown kept asking Jamison to guard a taller low-post presence in Kevin Garnett, and the new power forward had no tools to succeed in the matchup.

Williams slumped in shooting. (His answer is always not only to keep shooting, but to keep shooting deeper). Defensively, he was awful. Rajon Rondo ran around him early in the third quarter of the ghastly fifth game, like a man twirling around a Maypole.

Shaq mostly gives hard fouls these days. He could not exploit Kendrick Perkins in the low post the way Garnett did Jamison, or Rondo did anyone the Cavs put on him.

Yet, Brown clung to an image of himself as a defensive coach with a power game in the post. When injuries forced him to play a smaller, more athletic lineup and win higher-scoring games (including against Boston) during the regular season, he never felt at ease. He once said, when asked if he would ever try to play the Phoenix Suns-New York Knicks high-possession style, "Not on your life."

So he clung to defensive precepts that his personnel could not implement. He mistrusted the small, quick lineup that gave him his best chance to win. He often seemed to substitute out of desperation."

Then there's Sam Amico's of NBA.com's assessment of Shaq:

"Shaquille O’Neal won’t come back. Nor should he -- not unless he is willing to play 10-15 minutes a game in a backup role. As likeable as he is, Shaq has become a hindrance in that he too often gets in the way, and is a non-factor when it comes to rebounding. Age and wear and tear have robbed him of an ability to shuffle his feet on defense or get any lift on his shot on offense. And it’s no coincidence Phoenix couldn’t make the playoffs with him last season, then reached the Western finals this year without him. Especially when you consider the Suns didn’t really even bother replacing him. They just got rid of him."

Anyone strongly agree or disagree?

Considering the amount of money the Cavs spent to get Shaq and Antawn, did Brown have any choice other than to play them even though Boston "exploited them ruthlessly"?
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun May 16, 2010 10:03 am

I buy Shaq as a reaction to stop Howard. And Shaq was effective getting Howard into foul trouble and getting into Howards head. However, I do not see Jamo as a reaction to defend the Magic's perimeter bigs. Jamo isn't a defensive reaction at all. He is poor on D. Jamo was a reaction to get a RLewis type stretch 4 of our own. He was an offensive reaction.

However, the additions of Moon and Parker were clearly made to get bigger on the perimeter on D for the Magic. I made a point in another thread that we made at least three off-season moves to be able to defend the Magic but we don't have one guy that can guard a point guard. A clear case of tunnel vision knee-jerk reaction. The focus wasn't on becoming a more complete team, just to be able to match the Magic. I hope we have learned our lesson

I heard Windy on the radio between games 5 and 6 when the proverbial crap was hitting the fan in NEO. Windy was asked why MB didn't have LBJ post up against Allen, especially if his elbow was hurt.He addressed LBJs long-time REFUSAL to post up on offense A point many on here have asked not only now, but for years. He said what we all have witnessed. When LBJ posts up, he drifts off the block while posting, then goes out another 7 feet to catch the post pass, then pivots away from the basket, and then takes a back dribble to LeIso. That is not a coaching issue, it is LBJ being uncoachable. And MB was not allowed to hold LeBron to task.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby waborat » Sun May 16, 2010 10:42 am

OldDawg wrote:The focus wasn't on becoming a more complete team, just to be able to match the Magic. I hope we have learned our lesson



Ding, ding, ding...

Seemed like the FO assumed that ORL was the only team to worry about in the east...

It's almost as if they thought Boston's run was over because they were another year older? They seemed to forget that KG was finally healthy and another year of experience would make Rondo even better...Oh, and let's not forget that Doc can psychologically coach which is all that those HOFers need...

They thought the '10 Celtics were the '07 Pistons and not in any way a major roadblock...

Boston was instead a jackknifed semi and the Cavs were a riding in an Amish buggy pulled by a listless horse
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun May 16, 2010 11:03 am

I see you working on Shaq yet again, but my mind keeps dwelling on the fact we never really utilized any of these guys on the offensive end. Our offense had no movement, and when guys did knife into the paint, and I hope many of you noticed that Jamison did this very often, the ball handler, usually James or Mo, would continue to dribble out the ball at the 3pt line.

Our offense sucked. Just as Brown could not adapt his system on defense to the new players, he was even worse on offense. Boston was setting screens on the elbows and in the paint, our screens were "called for" and executed at the three point line. Do you remember Rondo or Allen once calling for a screen?

Yes Shaq missed bunnies. Yes at times it looked ugly becuase Perkins could check him man on man, but the frequency of that stagnation, agin why no cuts off Shaq in the post, paled in comparison to Mo and LeBron dribbling the ball out at the 3pt line. On defense it was only when Shaq was in that we had any type of control in the paint. Shaq was able to get the Boston bigs in foul trouble almost every game, yet we continued to survey the defense at the 3pt line until the 24 second clock ticked down to desperation jumpers or forced turnovers.

Livvy thinks that the 07-08 Cavaliers were the heavyweight contenders? Unfortunetly Big Ben and Z, the interior of that defense, were done and the following year it was proven out that we needed more height in the back court. We can do all the hindsight is 20/20 type stuff on these moves, but the overarching issue is the offense's lack of movement and the need for a legitimate PG.

Of the moves that Ferry pulled it is the Jamison trade that kills our long term flexibility. If Z, Shaq, Delonte, and Parker are all coming off the books/expiring we have the room to go out and add somebody, but you know what, that hasn't worked for the several years, and I think the paramount reason is our absence of a NBA offense. Assign blame to Brown, Mo, or James as you see fit.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun May 16, 2010 5:24 pm

OJ, I agree that Shaq did a good job of getting the Celtics bigs into foul trouble, but that accomplished very little because of their depth. If Perkins got in foul trouble they brought in Baby and didn't really lose anything. If KG got in foul trouble they brought in Sheed and were just fine. Unfortunately, the one thing Shaq was very good at just didn't help us that much.

I can't criticize the front office. If LeBron was 100% we could have beat Boston. And probably Orlando, who we match up better with than Boston. After Dewey destroyed us in the playoffs it was clear we had to get a physical center. And how could they pass up getting Jamison for nothing? Parker and Moon made sense, too.

By the way, the Celtics are kicking Orlando's ass in Game 1.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun May 16, 2010 6:09 pm

I'm all over the Boston/Orlando game. Again getting their bigs in foul trouble highlights for me another Roker miscue. Once Perkins was out of the game we should have exploited Shaq on the weaker bigs, but most of the time that occured Brown was either removing Shaq, or not going to him. I will have to rewatch, or lean on other peoples reads, but that is what I remember. We never once dictated a matchup.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby swerb » Sun May 16, 2010 8:56 pm

The irony - last year's team was built to beat Boston and got blindsided by Orlando. This year's team was built to beat the Magic, and the Celtics ended up being the nightmare matchup.

OIC

Goes to show - no matter the sport, no matter who the foe, you can't gear your team specifically to match up with one team.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby jb » Mon May 17, 2010 10:17 am

OldDawg wrote: The focus wasn't on becoming a more complete team, just to be able to match the Magic. I hope we have learned our lesson.



Yeah man. So in another 20 - 30 years after struggling thru mediocrity to get to sucking ass we happen to bottom out to have a ping pong ball land right and we happen to not have traded the pick and we have a GM who doesn't blow the pick and the franchise that costs $ 500 to take a family of 4 to any sort of decent seats lower bowl plus other costs actually stays in a declining town and we're a contender again I hope we'll have this lil nuggest filed away.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon May 17, 2010 10:23 am

jb wrote:
OldDawg wrote: The focus wasn't on becoming a more complete team, just to be able to match the Magic. I hope we have learned our lesson.



Yeah man. So in another 20 - 30 years after struggling thru mediocrity to get to sucking ass we happen to bottom out to have a ping pong ball land right and we happen to not have traded the pick and we have a GM who doesn't blow the pick and the franchise that costs $ 500 to take a family of 4 to any sort of decent seats lower bowl plus other costs actually stays in a declining town and we're a contender again I hope we'll have this lil nuggest filed away.

20-30 years from now going to the games will be cheap or free, since we'll all have holographic projectors in our family rooms and why the hell should I go to all the trouble of attending a game for a worse view?
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby Tree » Mon May 17, 2010 11:14 am

I'm not so sure we win this series even if James was 100%. I think the article, while not spot on imo, addresses some legitimate concerns, primarily Mike Brown's inability to play different styles of basketball, and get the most out of his talent. Brown's strategic myopia is both a blessing and a curse.

The whole house of cards for Brown begins to topple if his club does not play perfect defense, because offensively he runs a very generic unsophisticated offense. Any offense that requires a Super Star to have near career offenseive numbers in a series to win that series, is in danger the minute that Super Star has an off night or isn't 100%.

Brown is not an X's and O's guy. He's a defensive coach, and defense is more about attitude than anything, and when the message isn't getting through, the house of cards topples to the ground. He'd make a great assistant coach, but an HC, might be too much of a stretch for him.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue May 18, 2010 9:08 am

Tree wrote:I'm not so sure we win this series even if James was 100%.

I disagree. The Cavs lost Game 4 by 10 points and were outscored by 8 in the 4th quarter, when LeBron usually takes over. For the game LBJ scored 22 points, far from what he's capable. A normal LeBron game and the Cavs go up 3-1.

The Cavs lost Game 6 by 9 points. LeBron on top of his game is worth an extra 10 points over what we saw. For one thing, he doesn't commit 9 turnovers.


I think the article, while not spot on imo, addresses some legitimate concerns, primarily Mike Brown's inability to play different styles of basketball, and get the most out of his talent.

I agree there are legitimate concerns about Browns' coaching ability, which is why he'll be fired in a few days. By the way, I found this quote from Doc Rivers which supports your Brown hate agenda:

"Individually, Cleveland's pretty good," Celtics coach Doc Rivers said. "We're not going to win that match. But collectively, as a team, we have a shot. We have a chance."


Brown's strategic myopia is both a blessing and a curse.

I don't see how strategic myopia can be a blessing.

Brown is not an X's and O's guy. He's a defensive coach, and defense is more about attitude than anything, and when the message isn't getting through, the house of cards topples to the ground.

I think defense takes talent, too. No matter how much attitude Jamison and Mo have, they can't stop Garnett and Rondo. Part of Brown's problem was that he is first and foremost a defensive coach, yet they gave him offensively oriented and defensively challenged players like Mo and Jamison. Shaq was also a defensive liability, at least against the Celtics.

He'd make a great assistant coach, but an HC, might be too much of a stretch for him.


It will be interesting to see if he gets another chance to HC an NBA team.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby fundamentals » Tue May 18, 2010 10:31 am

One thing that resounds with me is that now the Cavaliers are out, they suck all of a sudden. They were picked by nearly everyone to win it all and now they are viewed as some unmitigating disaster that was waiting to implode.

The team choked from Coach Brown down to many of the players. The same guys who loved all of the moves to acquire additional pieces are now the same people bashing the composition of the roster. It is what is. They got beat by a team that was playing better basketball. It stinks.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby daddywags » Tue May 18, 2010 12:16 pm

I really don't buy the "Cavs are better individual players than Celtics" argument. If you look at season stats, Rondo and Williams are pretty close (although Rondo gets more assists because LeBron sucks those up on our team); Ray Allen is plainly better than Anthony Parker; James is better than Pierce, but it's closer than against most teams; Garnett is still better than Jamison although it could be called close; and Perkins/Shaq at this point in their careers are pretty close. Other than LeBron, I don't see us way better than them anywhere. Not even on defense: both teams gave up 95.6 ppg in the regular season.

So what happened? LeBron fell apart, plain and simple. It's impossible not to see the elephant in the living room. Consider:

- LeBron shot 50% from the field in the regular season. He shot 56% from the field in the Chicago series. He shot 54% from the field in the first three games of the Boston series. He shot 34% from the field in the last three games of the Boston series.

- LeBron shot 33% on 3 pointers in the regular season. He shot 54% on 3 pointers in the Chicago series. He shot 48% on 3 pointers in the first 3 games of the Boston series. He shot 11% (2 for 18) on three pointers in the last 3 games of the Boston series.

- LeBron averaged 29.7 ppg in the regular season. He averaged 32 ppg in the Chicago series. He averaged 32 ppg in the first 3 games of the Boston series. He averaged 21 ppg in the last 3 games of the Boston series (two of which we lost by less than 11 points).

- In 5 games of the Chicago series, LeBron had 15 turnovers. In the first 3 games of the Boston series he had 8 turnovers. In the last 3 games of the Boston series he had 19 turnovers.

In my view, it's impossible to look at those numbers and not see that something happened to LeBron in those final three games. And I don't care who the heck the coach is, when your meal ticket falls apart like that there's really nothing you can do.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue May 18, 2010 2:09 pm

Nice statistical breakdown, wags. Like I said, if LeBron is OK we win.

I was one of those who loved the acquistions of Shaq, AP, Moon, and Jamison. Still do. They had to go for it, and they weren't going to get there with the 08-09 roster. Those are the guys were were available. It's not like we could have picked up Chris Bosh.

I think Brown could have done a better job of coaching to the strengths of his players as opposed to sticking with his belief that you win with defense and a strong low post game, but that's a matter of argument and we'll never know for sure.

I think LeBron's elbow just got worse as the series went along. He got a reprieve with the three days of rest between games 2 and 3, so he was able to get it going in Game 3. But after that it was a game every other day; not enough recovery time. So we got the stats you put up.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby jb » Tue May 18, 2010 3:14 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I think LeBron's elbow just got worse as the series went along. He got a reprieve with the three days of rest between games 2 and 3, so he was able to get it going in Game 3. But after that it was a game every other day; not enough recovery time.



Or Delonte porked he Momma.

You know, either are equally plausible.

Allegedly.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby papacass » Tue May 18, 2010 3:45 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Tree wrote:He'd make a great assistant coach, but an HC, might be too much of a stretch for him.


It will be interesting to see if he gets another chance to HC an NBA team.


MB will coach again in the NBA. He has a resume with a Finals appearance and two 60-win seasons. We're not talking about Romeo levels of ineptitude here, or even Wedgebot.

IMHO, Brown was the right coach for the Cavs from 2005-08, when the Cavs were still underdogs and Ferry/Gilbert hadn't yet surrounded LeBron with 60-win talent. Those teams needed the fundamentals and dogged defense that MB preached every day. They couldn't win any other way.

The past two seasons, however, the Cavs were far more of a veteran team with more talent and more ego. The Cavs of the past two seasons have really needed a psychologist for a head coach, someone who could handle a locker room with four or five veteran all-stars, each with their own idiosyncrasies and diva-acts. Bigger egos means more ego massaging and prodding. Knowing what emotional buttons to push and when. I don't think Brown was ever comfortable in that role. He's a basketball bookworm, and his sanctuary is the film room.

Brown is a solid basketball guy, and he'll be of use to a team that is in the same position as the '05 Cavs were -- needing solid grounding in basic winning basketball principles. But once a team is past that point, they'll probably need to move on from Brown.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby waborat » Tue May 18, 2010 3:56 pm

papacass wrote:Brown is a solid basketball guy, and he'll be of use to a team that is in the same position as the '05 Cavs were -- needing solid grounding in basic winning basketball principles. But once a team is past that point, they'll probably need to move on from Brown.


Sounds like Roker = Marty
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby jb » Tue May 18, 2010 4:05 pm

Emotion vs X's and O's ?

Eyeeyo is big on dissing Doc Rivers. But the national media is all over this guy. During TO's, Doc nevertalks X's and O's in big games. It is all rah-rah. Meanwhile, Roker is ever the Poindexter with his clipboard and earseable marker. Maybe he's just a wonk-nerd when these guys need emotion on the sidelines and a psychiatris / politician off it? IOW - an aissiatnt frontin' as has been suggested.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby FUDU » Tue May 18, 2010 4:26 pm

Larry Brown says it best " I shouldn't have to coach effort".
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue May 18, 2010 6:25 pm

Memo to Shaq-Fu and LeFemme James:

Kobe scored 40 last nite...with a bum knee

That is all.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue May 18, 2010 9:33 pm

I don't think all the rah-rahing in the world during timeouts would have gotten the Cavs past Boston. According to Windhorst, the players were not happy with Brown's substitution patterns and they lost confidence in his ability to make in-game adjustments.

But it's all moot if LeBron had not headed south prematurely. If LeBron was LeBron and kept putting up those numbers he put up the first three games, then Rokes would have been irrelevant.
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby jb » Wed May 19, 2010 10:30 am

Prosecutor wrote:I don't think all the rah-rahing in the world during timeouts would have gotten the Cavs past Boston. According to Windhorst, the players were not happy with Brown's substitution patterns and they lost confidence in his ability to make in-game adjustments.

But it's all moot if LeBron had not headed south prematurely. If LeBron was LeBron and kept putting up those numbers he put up the first three games, then Rokes would have been irrelevant.



Independant of Roker, which is the better approach post-season in big games?
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby pup » Fri May 21, 2010 10:50 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I don't think all the rah-rahing in the world during timeouts would have gotten the Cavs past Boston. According to Windhorst, the players were not happy with Brown's substitution patterns and they lost confidence in his ability to make in-game adjustments.

But it's all moot if LeBron had not headed south prematurely. If LeBron was LeBron and kept putting up those numbers he put up the first three games, then Rokes would have been irrelevant.


Because that worked in 2008, right?

And this Celtics team might be better than that one (at least the way they are playing right now).
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat May 22, 2010 9:27 pm

When Brown gets his interview I imagine he'll point out the Cavs had the best record in the NBA two years running. The loss to Boston? He can say the Celtics are playing like NBA Champions and how was he supposed to beat them with his superstar hurt?

I don't know if he can save his job, but he can make the argument. And the better the Celtics do the better his argument.

The only reason to fire any coach is if there is a better coach available who is willing to take the job and is affordable. Is that the case this year, and if so, who is it?
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Re: Livvy's indictment of Brown, Shaq

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Mon May 24, 2010 2:17 pm

Prosecutor wrote:When Brown gets his interview I imagine he'll point out the Cavs had the best record in the NBA two years running. The loss to Boston? He can say the Celtics are playing like NBA Champions and how was he supposed to beat them with his superstar hurt?

I don't know if he can save his job, but he can make the argument. And the better the Celtics do the better his argument.

The only reason to fire any coach is if there is a better coach available who is willing to take the job and is affordable. Is that the case this year, and if so, who is it?


SD:

Fire em make room and they will come , especially if you tell the King is still there.

Mike Brown should have been fired three years ago, and again when he made the now exposed Orlando team look like World beaters.

Dude is one day late and two steps behind in all things , and without Lebron James is a less than five hundrdd coach with any other roster in the NBA except Boston or LA.

He's the poor mans imitation of San Antonio North clueless and oblivious
a true one dimensional fraud with no game.


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