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cavs v celtics - game 4

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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun May 09, 2010 10:27 pm

Anybody notice that in both the Cavs losses they were 4-for-21 from the 3-point line? IOW, they hit less than one in five 3-point shots. And most of them were wide open looks.

All they have to do is hit 8-for-21, not even 40%, and they're right there at the end. I don't know what it is because the Cavs were one of the top 3-point shooting teams in the league this year, but some games they can't hit a 3 to save their lives. And it's never just one guy. It's like a disease that everybody catches at once. And they're too stupid to stop shooting them when nobody is making them. They just keep jacking up those bricks. The Celtics can get away with packing the paint when the Cavs are shooting this badly from the perimeter.

Also, THREE offensive rebounds? They miss 17 three pointers and only get three damn offensive boards? Zero second chance points? Unbelievable. They were outrebounded 47-32 and allowed the Celtics 6'1", 170 pound point guard to pull down 18 boards. Just ridiculous.

Well, they got the split. Now they just need to win out at home and they can move on and get hammered by Orlando.

As for Rondo, I don't know, maybe put Moon on him? Roker did that for the final possession of the half. It's worth a shot because those 29 points, 18 rebounds, and 13 assists came way too easy.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby davemanddd » Sun May 09, 2010 10:43 pm

boy the bench sure got killed today too, outscored 23-11 with tony allen scoring 15 of those 23 points for the c's. geez-o-pete, was delonte west off his meds today or what???

you can talk all you want about lebron's elbow, rajon rondo's triple-double and mo williams having an off-game, but the 12-point difference in the bench speaks volumes to me, not just because the cavs lost by 10, but because the cavs are supposed to have more superior depth than what boston has.

so far in the series the team that has won the bench scoring and got one of their bench players to step up their game has won the game:

game 1 cleveland 26-12, jj hickson 11 points, cleveland won 101-93
game 2 tied 27-27, rasheed wallace 17 points, boston won 104-86
game 3 cleveland 35-31, delonte west 14 points, cleveland won 124-95
game 4 boston 23-11, tony allen 15 points, boston won 97-87

it seems to me that the cavs bench really needs to step it up in order for them to win, but by the same token, roker needs to give them more minutes in order for them to positively affect the game instead of giving guys like anthony parker 42 minutes. 42 minutes??? 42 minutes??? that just stinks out loud!!!
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby krazylegz » Mon May 10, 2010 12:15 am

our bench absolutely bombed tonight...boobie gibson and z shouldve gotten some mins tonight
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 10, 2010 12:28 am

Ah yes, JJ has a rough game so instead of "more JJ" chants we move onto Z chants.

Love it.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby OldDawg » Mon May 10, 2010 1:32 am

My takes:

1) Rondo. Are you serious? Rondo can do that to us? We are making him look like a hall of famer!
2) We spend all off-season signing 50 long defenders so we can match up with the Magic and Lakers, and we can't guard one quick guy?
3) The Cs have played much better team D than the Cavs on the series.
4) Mo Williams can't defend. So if he's not a huge plus on offense, what is he doing for us? He certainly can't distribute. He looked horrible trying to penetrate to create for teammates. His TO trying to do just that in the last minute was a back breaker.
5) Team tries to many thread-the-needle ooh-aah passes... TOs.
6) Jamo is horrible on D. His off ball understanding, spacing, footwork, reaction etc, are very bad. And did I mention that he is soft?
7) Pierce is basically a bust all series, and we can't crush these guys?
8) ANY team that turns it on and off like this will find it virtually impossible to win the whole thing. The Magic, Lakers, and Suns will be sitting back eating popcorn watching the number one seed in all of the NBA trying to defeat Rondo and the Geritol crew.
9) What are AV and JJ doing shooting jumpers when we are struggling to score?
10) Refs called EVERYTHING the first 3 quarters and then start the 4th quarter with 3 straight no-calls on the Cs as the Cavs went at the basket.
11) Cavs offense in the last 2 minutes to catch up was very disjointed and playgroundish. "I will drive to the basket into a crowd and get my shot blocked.
12) GAME 4 IS NOW HUGE. Its a whole 'nuther thing to be down 3-2, and having to go back to their place.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby JCoz » Mon May 10, 2010 8:49 am

I put this one squarley on LBJ. Forget numbers. Dude was awful yesterday. This elbow issue frustrating. You'd think nothing was wrong Friday, but then yesterday, did he even ATTEMPT a jumper? Didn't seem like it...

And he's got to be smarter with his passes to AV. If he doesn't realize by now that dmuping a ball to Andy 15 feet from the hoop, when he and the people defening him have jammed the lane, is a bad idea, AKA a turnover, I don't know what to say.

Just one game, I'm just exhausted from this weekend.

But that was a fucking lame performance from LBJ.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby pup » Mon May 10, 2010 9:43 am

JCoz wrote:I put this one squarley on LBJ. Forget numbers. Dude was awful yesterday. This elbow issue frustrating. You'd think nothing was wrong Friday, but then yesterday, did he even ATTEMPT a jumper? Didn't seem like it...

And he's got to be smarter with his passes to AV. If he doesn't realize by now that dmuping a ball to Andy 15 feet from the hoop, when he and the people defening him have jammed the lane, is a bad idea, AKA a turnover, I don't know what to say.

Just one game, I'm just exhausted from this weekend.

But that was a fucking lame performance from LBJ.


One guy on this roster that would start on any of the other remaining teams...and he is killing us. Word.

Series is going 7. Was going 7 all along. Nothing more to see here.

When we stretched the Champion Celtics to 7 games a couple years ago it was because of heart and desire and all that jazz. Now that those roles have reversed, we are in panic mode.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby JCoz » Mon May 10, 2010 9:48 am

pup wrote:
JCoz wrote:I put this one squarley on LBJ. Forget numbers. Dude was awful yesterday. This elbow issue frustrating. You'd think nothing was wrong Friday, but then yesterday, did he even ATTEMPT a jumper? Didn't seem like it...

And he's got to be smarter with his passes to AV. If he doesn't realize by now that dmuping a ball to Andy 15 feet from the hoop, when he and the people defening him have jammed the lane, is a bad idea, AKA a turnover, I don't know what to say.

Just one game, I'm just exhausted from this weekend.

But that was a fucking lame performance from LBJ.


One guy on this roster that would start on any of the other remaining teams...and he is killing us. Word.

Series is going 7. Was going 7 all along. Nothing more to see here.

When we stretched the Champion Celtics to 7 games a couple years ago it was because of heart and desire and all that jazz. Now that those roles have reversed, we are in panic mode.


I am not paniced in any sense of the word.

So again, I'll state it.

LBJ's performance was lame as fuck yesterday.


BTW, its also pretty lame that you think pointing out that he's the best player on the planet means he gets a pass on any critcism.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 10, 2010 9:56 am

This boils down to inconsistency, both in approach and in execution. You would think 82 games would iron all that out, but with this team it hasn't, nor has it over the years. 4 games completed in this series and you can say there have been 3 (maybe 4) different levels of intensity from LeBron & his surrounding cast.

Do have to give Boston their credit for doing whatever it takes to make this series a lot of work for a more talented Cavalier roster.

Sad that the Celtics have exactly 1 player we have no answer for and that 1 player is keeping their hopes alive, add to the fact we have the 1 player nobody has an answer for yet here we are 2-2....makes it all the more frustrating.

Laughable though that these are two of the more formidable defensive teams in the NBA and there has been nothing but offense from one team or the other in every game.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby pup » Mon May 10, 2010 10:16 am

JCoz wrote:
pup wrote:
JCoz wrote:I put this one squarley on LBJ. Forget numbers. Dude was awful yesterday. This elbow issue frustrating. You'd think nothing was wrong Friday, but then yesterday, did he even ATTEMPT a jumper? Didn't seem like it...

And he's got to be smarter with his passes to AV. If he doesn't realize by now that dmuping a ball to Andy 15 feet from the hoop, when he and the people defening him have jammed the lane, is a bad idea, AKA a turnover, I don't know what to say.

Just one game, I'm just exhausted from this weekend.

But that was a fucking lame performance from LBJ.


One guy on this roster that would start on any of the other remaining teams...and he is killing us. Word.

Series is going 7. Was going 7 all along. Nothing more to see here.

When we stretched the Champion Celtics to 7 games a couple years ago it was because of heart and desire and all that jazz. Now that those roles have reversed, we are in panic mode.


I am not paniced in any sense of the word.

So again, I'll state it.

LBJ's performance was lame as fuck yesterday.


BTW, its also pretty lame that you think pointing out that he's the best player on the planet means he gets a pass on any critcism.


Criticize all you want.

But he is about 12th on the list of reasons this thing is 2-2. And probably even lower for why they lost yesterday.

I miss the days when everyone bitched about him only taking jumpers.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon May 10, 2010 10:19 am

JCoz wrote:I put this one squarley on LBJ. Forget numbers. Dude was awful yesterday. This elbow issue frustrating. You'd think nothing was wrong Friday, but then yesterday, did he even ATTEMPT a jumper? Didn't seem like it...

And he's got to be smarter with his passes to AV. If he doesn't realize by now that dmuping a ball to Andy 15 feet from the hoop, when he and the people defening him have jammed the lane, is a bad idea, AKA a turnover, I don't know what to say.

Just one game, I'm just exhausted from this weekend.

But that was a fucking lame performance from LBJ.

I don't know, I seem to remember him bricking 5 3 pointers.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 10, 2010 10:21 am

Any effing backcourt scoring and it's 3-1.

They didn't get it. No, LBJ did not assert himself nor play well, but 3/16 from Mo/West on open looks pretty much defines this series for those two fukks. Blame who you want and by all means fall back on the "LBJ has to assert himself and go the hole" shit. It's true to a degree that he has to recognize and do it himself. Because he sure ain't getting a fucking ounce of help from his backcourt.

And because MO and Schizo can't knock down an open shot the MVP needs to throw himself into the cauldron of bodies that the Celtics are packing around the rim. That's not a question either. It's a fact.

He has to do it because no one else has stood up. Maybe he's fucking sick of it. I know I am.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon May 10, 2010 10:22 am

We can write all the shit we want, but it comes to down desire. It's a copout, and it's been thrown out after every loss. But yesterday it was more true than ever. Fast break points, killed on second chance points despite shooting a much poorer percentage, getting beat down the floor repeatedly, letting a smurf grab key rebounds. Bleh.

This is the NBA playoffs. It happens. It freaking sucks. But oftentimes teams don't fully turn it on until they feel threatened to really lose a series. These Cavs don't, and until they do we are going to see this shit from them.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby fundamentals » Mon May 10, 2010 10:24 am

I want the MVP to guard Rondo at all times. The End.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 10, 2010 10:29 am

fundamentals wrote:I want the MVP to guard Rondo at all times. The End.



No way. Not for me brotha. He ain't waterbug quick and I don't need to see him reaching too often and picking up shitty fouls.

Shit, if Mo ain't showing up anyway I'd rather they throw Boobie to the wolves defensively and see if maybe he can hit a shot. Rondo wants to go into the tall trees for 18 boards then he's likely leaving a guy with some space to get there. I'm just MO Williams-ed out.

Rondo needs to keep picking himself off the floor though. I do know that. I saw him in the paint far too often without him resembling what Nash looked like at 11pm last night.

They need to hit some damn shots. They need more than 3/16 from Mo and West and more than 14 from Tawn.

They just do.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon May 10, 2010 10:35 am

OldDawg wrote:My takes:

1) Rondo. Are you serious? Rondo can do that to us? We are making him look like a hall of famer!
2) We spend all off-season signing 50 long defenders so we can match up with the Magic and Lakers, and we can't guard one quick guy?
3) The Cs have played much better team D than the Cavs on the series.
4) Mo Williams can't defend. So if he's not a huge plus on offense, what is he doing for us? He certainly can't distribute. He looked horrible trying to penetrate to create for teammates. His TO trying to do just that in the last minute was a back breaker.
5) Team tries to many thread-the-needle ooh-aah passes... TOs.
6) Jamo is horrible on D. His off ball understanding, spacing, footwork, reaction etc, are very bad. And did I mention that he is soft?
7) Pierce is basically a bust all series, and we can't crush these guys?
8) ANY team that turns it on and off like this will find it virtually impossible to win the whole thing. The Magic, Lakers, and Suns will be sitting back eating popcorn watching the number one seed in all of the NBA trying to defeat Rondo and the Geritol crew.
9) What are AV and JJ doing shooting jumpers when we are struggling to score?
10) Refs called EVERYTHING the first 3 quarters and then start the 4th quarter with 3 straight no-calls on the Cs as the Cavs went at the basket.
11) Cavs offense in the last 2 minutes to catch up was very disjointed and playgroundish. "I will drive to the basket into a crowd and get my shot blocked.
12) GAME 4 IS NOW HUGE. Its a whole 'nuther thing to be down 3-2, and having to go back to their place.


Come back off the ledge and join us, Old Dawg.

1. Rondo IS an all-star. Before this series, he was still the second best all around PG in the playoffs, and has been the best Boston player all year. Even when the Cavs were beasting in the regular season, Rondo gave us fits. The key is to keep the other players around him (like Tony Allen) from getting easy buckets, and make him beat you.

2. We didn't sign Parker and Moon to cover lightning bug style PG's. It's Mo, Delonte, and Boobie that would be the first line to check these types, and they haven't, so Parker got looks.

3. The C's, even with the half-assed coasting they've done this year, are still a better team defensively than the Cavs are. (look at hollinger's Defensive Efficiency ratings; the team had a GARBAGE offense (13th overall) and still outperformed the Cavs defensively. With the pts scored and fg% the Celtics had in game 4, the Cavs should have won; it was the lack of offensive cohesion and the scoring droughts in the first and fourth quarters of game 4 that sealed that one up.

4. Mo has done a pretty good job of fascilitating this year in the playoffs, even when his shot has been meh. That last "back breaker" would be a foul in Cleveland; he got whacked on the jump, and whacked again by Wallace on the "strip". I'm not an apologist, here....but Mo is STILL providing you essentially the same thing that Boobie would be, and at least he's still attacking. (Vs. Delonte who was a complete fungus in game 4)

The problem for Cleveland was the Boston was packing the paint and daring them to drive....Cavs weren't swinging the ball from left to right and spacing the floor. Too many 1-on-5 drives into traffic and inability to hit from range killed the offense.


5. Yup.

6. Jamo has never been a + defender, at any point in his career. He played Garnett far better 1 on 1 this game, although im too lazy to look up the stats for when he was guarding him. Either way, he looked far better on defense in Game 4 than he did in the first 3 games. (And Garnett missed some post ups) Part of the reason Andy stayed on the court in the 4th was because he's the best defender for a guy like KG. (Jamo isn't tall enough, and Shaq isn't quick enough and wont come out of the paint. JJ is a retarded labradoodle)

7. Meh.
8. ""

9. When there are 4 people in the paint and your defender is no where to be found, you take the wide open jumper.

10. Boston was at home. Those calls go the other way in Cleveland.

11. Yet, if they shot jumpers as the defense sagged, the forum would be furious for not being aggressive and settling for jumpers.

12. Yup. Fortunately, the Cavs have HCA.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby JCoz » Mon May 10, 2010 10:41 am

aoxo1 wrote:
JCoz wrote:I put this one squarley on LBJ. Forget numbers. Dude was awful yesterday. This elbow issue frustrating. You'd think nothing was wrong Friday, but then yesterday, did he even ATTEMPT a jumper? Didn't seem like it...

And he's got to be smarter with his passes to AV. If he doesn't realize by now that dmuping a ball to Andy 15 feet from the hoop, when he and the people defening him have jammed the lane, is a bad idea, AKA a turnover, I don't know what to say.

Just one game, I'm just exhausted from this weekend.

But that was a fucking lame performance from LBJ.

I don't know, I seem to remember him bricking 5 3 pointers.


Yeah, I really couldn't recall those. I wonder if a couple of them were end of quarter heaves.

In fact there were huge stretches of the game where I can't even recall noticing LBJ at all, even though he was playing.

Yeah, lots of other players on the cavs sucked yesterday.

None of them are the best player on the planet.

Whatever. I'm flipping spent. I partied way too hard this weekend back in Ctown. I can't muster any real emotion right now.

The game sucked yesterday, Lebron sucked, Mo continued to suck, everyone seemed perfectly fine with the suckage. Ok then.

On to game five.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 10, 2010 10:41 am

Nobody can convince me that 23 isn't pacing himself after last season's melt down in Orlando. Keep it in mind.

Y'all can hate it and disagree with it and do whatever else with it ya want with it, but there's some of it going on. And given the fact that this group that can't shoot straight takes its lead from 23, they go as he goes. Maybe one night they'll jump and say, "Shit, we got this one."

Maybe not.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon May 10, 2010 10:47 am

You're right peek. LeBron is pacing himself because he was so exhausted with the month of rest he got during last season's 8-0 start to the playoffs.

Joking aside, I agree with you.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon May 10, 2010 10:48 am

As far as the back court guys go, I'd like to see one motha(#*$!er get the ball and look like he WANTS to do something with it. For all the Mo Williams criticism, at least he's being aggressive with it; either driving or shooting it poorly. One thing I loved about the Boobie (and regular season Mo) is when they LOOK like they want to catch and shoot. Not probe.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby JCoz » Mon May 10, 2010 10:48 am

peeker643 wrote:Nobody can convince me that 23 isn't pacing himself after last season's melt down in Orlando. Keep it in mind.

Y'all can hate it and disagree with it and do whatever else with it ya want with it, but there's some of it going on. And given the fact that this group that can't shoot straight takes its lead from 23, they go as he goes. Maybe one night they'll jump and say, "Shit, we got this one."

Maybe not.


I don't know how you "pace yourself" with a winnable game in front of your face to go up 3-1 coming home.

Glad he conserved some energy for the extra two games he's gonna have to play this series as a result.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby pup » Mon May 10, 2010 10:53 am

How about the three times he ran down the guy from Boston leading the break forcing the guy to drop it back to a trailer only to have LBJ turn around and see 4 Cavs meandering around half court.

Someone else run the fuck down the floor and pick up a trailer. Once. Please.

And everyone's love child is included in those meandering.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon May 10, 2010 10:56 am

pup wrote:How about the three times he ran down the guy from Boston leading the break forcing the guy to drop it back to a trailer only to have LBJ turn around and see 4 Cavs meandering around half court.

Someone else run the fuck down the floor and pick up a trailer. Once. Please.

And everyone's love child is included in those meandering.


Im not sure which was worse: these 2-3 times this happened, the time Garnett beat everyone down the floor for an easy layup, or the 3-4 times all 5 guys ran back to the paint, stand around with their dicks in their hands, and let Ray Allen spot up from 3 with nothing but hopes and dreams defending him. I seriously thought my head was about to explode. This didn't happen ONCE to Boston in transition, from what I remember. Just poor ass effort, poor basketball IQ.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 10, 2010 10:56 am

JCoz wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Nobody can convince me that 23 isn't pacing himself after last season's melt down in Orlando. Keep it in mind.

Y'all can hate it and disagree with it and do whatever else with it ya want with it, but there's some of it going on. And given the fact that this group that can't shoot straight takes its lead from 23, they go as he goes. Maybe one night they'll jump and say, "Shit, we got this one."

Maybe not.


I don't know how you "pace yourself" with a winnable game in front of your face to go up 3-1 coming home.

Glad he conserved some energy for the extra two games he's gonna have to play this series as a result.


Not about the energy he's conserving IMO. It's about the beating he takes and the physical and mental toll of having to do it what seems like every single night.

8/16 from Mo/Delonte on open looks isn't really a lot to ask and it wins Game 4. And, again, I'm not saying LBJ is doing the right thing witihin a game. I'm saying he's looking at it from a series and beyond perspective.

Lastly, the C's are a big, physical and solid defensive team when they want to be. They have 3 HoFers and a 4th who's playing right now at that level. Anyone who thinks the Cavs should be able to walk into that series and meet no resistance isn't being honest about it. Pride dies hard if it's genuine and the C's know what they're doing in a series too.

Add in the number 23 is drumming on Paul Pierce's head this series and he's not lacking in effort.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby JCoz » Mon May 10, 2010 11:05 am

peeker643 wrote:
Add in the number 23 is drumming on Paul Pierce's head this series and he's not lacking in effort.


Honestly, its hard for me to give a whole lot of credit to LBJ for that.

I mean, its clear that Pierce is fucking awful so far this playoffs, I don't know that it has much at all to do with LBJ.

I've seen LBJ play what looked like tougher D on Pierce before and he beat it anyways.

IIRC, the numbers show that Pierce is struggling throughout these playoffs, not this series.

Could be wrong on that.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby fundamentals » Mon May 10, 2010 11:08 am

Peeks, I respect your opinion on not wanting James to guard Rondo but I think it has to be done, at least for good portions of the next game. He has to be limited in what he is doing. I know that potentially frees Pierce from getting hot but I think Cleveland has people besides James that can keep him in check.

Poor guard play is affecting the Cavaliers for certain but asking Gibson to come in now might be real difficult, hasn't seen the light of day off the pine in quite some time, Brown might do it, especially since it's at the Q in front of the home folks.

I don't think Brown is all that wonderful of a coach but you have to have lost your marbles to want to coach in that league. And let's face it, LBJ is the coach of that squad, IMO.

After looking at some other posts about guys wanting and fimrly believeing the Cavaliers are going to punk Orlando or the Lakers or Suns, they have to take care of this business first.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 10, 2010 11:09 am

JCoz wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Add in the number 23 is drumming on Paul Pierce's head this series and he's not lacking in effort.


Honestly, its hard for me to give a whole lot of credit to LBJ for that.

I mean, its clear that Pierce is fucking awful so far this playoffs, I don't know that it has much at all to do with LBJ.

I've seen LBJ play what looked like tougher D on Pierce before and he beat it anyways.

IIRC, the numbers show that Pierce is struggling throughout these playoffs, not this series.

Could be wrong on that.


This is true. Not gonna argue that. But IMO Pierce is still dangerous with space and he's had none. Not to mention that the foul trouble he's been in as a result of him being on James has taken away any flow and rythm to his game.

So the question is would you throw 23 on Rondo and see what came of it? Knowing that Rondo is quicker and that likely leaves Parker on Pierce? Or do you play it straight up Tuesday as they have and hope for a better result?
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby fundamentals » Mon May 10, 2010 11:18 am

peeker643 wrote:This is true. Not gonna argue that. But IMO Pierce is still dangerous with space and he's had none. Not to mention that the foul trouble he's been in as a result of him being on James has taken away any flow and rythm to his game.

So the question is would you throw 23 on Rondo and see what came of it? Knowing that Rondo is quicker and that likely leaves Parker on Pierce? Or do you play it straight up Tuesday as they have and hope for a better result?


Yes, I would put James on Rondo and take my chances with Parker guarding Pierce. I would rather see Pierce hoisting shots ad nauseum. He's not that good of a facilitator. Rondo's ability to shoot and to distribute far outweighs (right now) what Pierce can do, but just my two cents.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon May 10, 2010 11:20 am

There's zero reason the Cavs have to put James on Rondo for the entire game rather than, say, 10-15-20 minutes. Switch up the defenders and give him some different looks, rather than the same thing he saw all of game 3-4.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Doc » Mon May 10, 2010 11:20 am

Sorry Peek, but "we got this one" isn't happening here. This team goes as LeBron goes. Add Shaq, add Antawn, add the (allegedly) deepest rotation in the league, and it still revolves around 23. It's frustrating, in a sense. Because, really, what do we have to do to be the best? We can't win if LeBron isn't playing on top of his game. But he has to know that by now, right? I mean, that's the crux of the issue. We, as fans, know that if LeBron isn't being aggressive in all offensive aspects of his game on any given night, we're looking at a long night.

Look, I'm not going to blame him for game 2 or game 4. Without 23, we're not here. We know that. I'm sure we'll see that game 3 intensity out of him tomorrow night, and I fully expect to be headed back to Boston up 3-2. But, we're at a point where we can't have games like that from him anymore. I hate that I'm bitching about a near trip-dub. But, if you want the ring, go get it. 23 is that good. No, he can't beat Orlando and LA (or even Boston) all by himself. But when you're the best in the league and the rest of your team can't make a goddamned shot, well, I think you've gotta take control of the game. That's my gripe today with LeBron. It's been the same since he's been here, and it doesn't matter which other 4 are out there with him. He gets no help, and I bitch at LeBron for not being assertive enough.

Ok, let's get a win tomorrow (and we know Boston is coming strong tomorrow). Maybe if we extend the series long enough, Orlando will cool down a bit? I'm sick at myself for bitching about LeBron, the one and only reason we're here. Confused and frustrated. But far from ledging.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby JCoz » Mon May 10, 2010 11:22 am

peeker643 wrote:
JCoz wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Add in the number 23 is drumming on Paul Pierce's head this series and he's not lacking in effort.


Honestly, its hard for me to give a whole lot of credit to LBJ for that.

I mean, its clear that Pierce is fucking awful so far this playoffs, I don't know that it has much at all to do with LBJ.

I've seen LBJ play what looked like tougher D on Pierce before and he beat it anyways.

IIRC, the numbers show that Pierce is struggling throughout these playoffs, not this series.

Could be wrong on that.


This is true. Not gonna argue that. But IMO Pierce is still dangerous with space and he's had none. Not to mention that the foul trouble he's been in as a result of him being on James has taken away any flow and rythm to his game.

So the question is would you throw 23 on Rondo and see what came of it? Knowing that Rondo is quicker and that likely leaves Parker on Pierce? Or do you play it straight up Tuesday as they have and hope for a better result?


I don't know that I'd do that.

James is not really a straight up lock down man to man defender over the course of a game IMO.

He doesn't make the NBA all defensive for that, as far as I'm concerned.

A stretch or 2? Sure.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby JCoz » Mon May 10, 2010 11:25 am

Doc wrote:Sorry Peek, but "we got this one" isn't happening here. This team goes as LeBron goes. Add Shaq, add Antawn, add the (allegedly) deepest rotation in the league, and it still revolves around 23. It's frustrating, in a sense. Because, really, what do we have to do to be the best? We can't win if LeBron isn't playing on top of his game. But he has to know that by now, right? I mean, that's the crux of the issue. We, as fans, know that if LeBron isn't being aggressive in all offensive aspects of his game on any given night, we're looking at a long night.

Look, I'm not going to blame him for game 2 or game 4. Without 23, we're not here. We know that. I'm sure we'll see that game 3 intensity out of him tomorrow night, and I fully expect to be headed back to Boston up 3-2. But, we're at a point where we can't have games like that from him anymore. I hate that I'm bitching about a near trip-dub. But, if you want the ring, go get it. 23 is that good. No, he can't beat Orlando and LA (or even Boston) all by himself. But when you're the best in the league and the rest of your team can't make a goddamned shot, well, I think you've gotta take control of the game. That's my gripe today with LeBron. It's been the same since he's been here, and it doesn't matter which other 4 are out there with him. He gets no help, and I bitch at LeBron for not being assertive enough.

Ok, let's get a win tomorrow (and we know Boston is coming strong tomorrow). Maybe if we extend the series long enough, Orlando will cool down a bit? I'm sick at myself for bitching about LeBron, the one and only reason we're here. Confused and frustrated. But far from ledging.


This is pretty darn close to what I'm thinking as well.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 10, 2010 11:58 am

At this point if Boobie hadn't fucked Mike Brown's daughter I'd expect to see him for a few minutes if Rondo is going enfuego tomorrow.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby JCoz » Mon May 10, 2010 12:01 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:At this point if Boobie hadn't fucked Mike Brown's daughter I'd expect to see him for a few minutes if Rondo is going enfuego tomorrow.


????
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 10, 2010 12:10 pm

You have absolutely zero Sarcasm filter JCoz.

And Dwyer sees exactly what many of us see w/ this tenative LBJ and it ruining the offense (I feel comfortable saying this when the offense is entirely built around his decision making):

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_d ... nba,239908

The Cavs coasted a bit, I'm not going to completely put this win in Boston's hands, because Cleveland could have taken this. From the outset, however, they were willing to let this work as Boston's game. Willing to react, rather than create reactions. This doesn't mean they were playing especially poorly, it just means the Cavaliers were allowing Boston to set the terms of conflict.

James and company were making things easy on the Boston defense. James wasn't making quick decisions upon receiving the rock, allowing the Boston D to load up and his individual defender to get into that coin flip situation (shot, or drive?) and hope for the best. If he would have just grabbed the ball and made a move straightaway, even if it meant hoisting 19-footers all afternoon, things would have been different. The Boston D wouldn't have been ready. Free throws would result. Offensive rebounds would have been in the offing.


...

The Cavs? They have to go quickly, and put Boston on its heels. A home court has a way of telling you that this is your game, but I'm sure you're with me in getting a little sick of seeing the team with the most regular season wins play the way their opponents want them to.

It's a best of three, now, with two to play in Ohio. There's no shame in that, but there is a bit of disappointment in a Cavalier team that has let it go this far. Just once, I'd like to see that switch stay on for more than four quarters at a time.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Mon May 10, 2010 12:11 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:At this point if Boobie hadn't fucked Mike Brown's daughter I'd expect to see him for a few minutes if Rondo is going enfuego tomorrow.


I agree. You have to switch it up somehow on Rondo. Can't let him see the same guy/defensive set being throw at him all game long. Can Gibson do better than Mo defensively? He can't do much worse. My only question, who do you put w/ Gib in the backcourt? Do you play him w/ West so West can handle the PG, or hope Gib can play the PG role and keep Parker out there? As aoxo said above, throw James at Rondo in spurts. Putting James on Rondo for the entire game and gives Pierce the opportunity to get it going on offense. Once he gets into a rhythm, he's hard to stop. You can't sfford to give Pierce a second life in this series.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon May 10, 2010 12:13 pm

What team that had a Jordan/LeBron/Kobe type player, didn't go as the superstar goes?

Any chance it makes sense to go Parker/Moon/LeBron from 1 to 3 at any point? Mary Schmitt caught what I thought was the biggest coaching related mistake from yesterday not letting Shaq foul out, seems like that 8-0 run that pushed it to a 12 point lead happened right after Shaq sat. Too many Tony Allen drives into the open lane...

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/05/lack_of_shaq_haunts_cavaliers.html
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 10, 2010 12:18 pm

eye's link is very much right on. The Cavaliers are relying on "things working out b/c they have the better roster and superstar", instead of going out and TAKING what they should deem as theirs.

Reminds me a lot of Marty's defenses back in the day.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Prosecutor » Mon May 10, 2010 12:47 pm

I wouldn't obsess on who's guarding Rondo. In spite of Rondo having one of the all-time great games in Boston playoff history, with numbers that rival anything Bird ever did, the Celtics still only scored 97 points. The Cavs needed only 98 to win. Two days earlier on the same court they scored 124. Somehow they managed to score 37 points less on Sunday than Friday night. That's a problem with offense, not defense.

Lack of intensity? I agree it was inexcusable to let the Celtics beat them down the floor for easy layups or wide open threes after made baskets. The transition defense must improve. It was also inexcusable to stand around watching while Rondo ran around grabbing rebound after rebound. That has to change.

But the main culprit was the inability to hit the 3-pointers. I think the Cavs ended up second in the NBA in 3-point shooting percentage in the regular season. Yesterday they hit 19%. The Celts were jamming the paint and conceding the 3-point shot, and the Cavs couldn't knock them down. All they had to do was hit 40% and Rondo's huge game would have been just an interesting footnote.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 10, 2010 12:52 pm

First off thanks for keeping that under 11 paragraphs.

Second, do you realize 40% is above our season average, and for probably the last 12 years above any teams season average, even the Suns?
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon May 10, 2010 12:58 pm

but donny all we had to do was hold them to 86 and no one remembers Rondo's game. I don't think 3 pointers are the problem when you go five minutes into the 4th quarter without scoring...
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon May 10, 2010 12:58 pm

And yet the Celtics were 1-14 on 3's but won.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon May 10, 2010 1:48 pm

davemanddd wrote:
waborat wrote:
aoxo1 wrote: Moon can't get any burn is beyond me.



Question of the night for me


me too. anthony parker got 42 minutes??? really??? seriously??? why??? isn't he supposed to be some sort of defensive stopper on rajon rondo and yet dude had one of the most monstrous triple-doubles i've ever seen from a point guard??? if you ask me, i don't think he should be getting even a single minute and yet he got 42 stinking minutes??? what a revolting development that was. he is by far the weakest link on this team and yet roker continues to march him out there like eric "the genius" wedge was all about his veteran "grinders". excuse my while i bend over and throw up.


Yeah, his defense on Rondo was pretty crappy, but I dont expect any of the Cavs guards to be able to stifle Rondo 1 on 1. However, offensively?

vs. BOS 4 32.5 10-21 .476 7-13 .538

I'll take that production from my 2 guard all freaking day. Especially when the next most likely replacement, D. West:

vs. BOS 4 26.8 10-24 .417 0-5 .000 (with a whole 2.5 assists as the primary "creator" with the second unit")
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon May 10, 2010 2:06 pm

Orenthal wrote:but donny all we had to do was hold them to 86 and no one remembers Rondo's game. I don't think 3 pointers are the problem when you go five minutes into the 4th quarter without scoring...


Agreed. Lack of ball movement or post play hurt far worse than inability to hit the three. Although the 3 ball may have opened up the court a little.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Tree » Mon May 10, 2010 2:34 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Anybody notice that in both the Cavs losses they were 4-for-21 from the 3-point line? IOW, they hit less than one in five 3-point shots. And most of them were wide open looks.

If "Z" was getting a bit of playing time, I think our 3 point shooting as well as our rebounding and defense would actually improve.

"Z" was nearly 50% from 3 point land this year, and he also averages 2 offensive rebounds and 3.6 defensive rebounds a game, with just under 20 minutes played. He is also typically one of our better free throw shooters.

The two best 3 point shooters on the Cavs this regular season were Gibson, and "Z" both nearly hitting their 3s at a 50% clip and neither one are going to see any playing time.

Another thing I don't get and I sorta understand having a short rotation, but one of the Cavs Strengths in the regular season was the bench. Why not just go back to a regular season rotation, and continually throw fresh bodies at the old Celtics?

All they have to do is hit 8-for-21, not even 40%, and they're right there at the end. I don't know what it is because the Cavs were one of the top 3-point shooting teams in the league this year, but some games they can't hit a 3 to save their lives. And it's never just one guy. It's like a disease that everybody catches at once. And they're too stupid to stop shooting them when nobody is making them. They just keep jacking up those bricks. The Celtics can get away with packing the paint when the Cavs are shooting this badly from the perimeter.

Also, THREE offensive rebounds? They miss 17 three pointers and only get three damn offensive boards? Zero second chance points? Unbelievable. They were outrebounded 47-32 and allowed the Celtics 6'1", 170 pound point guard to pull down 18 boards. Just ridiculous.

Well, they got the split. Now they just need to win out at home and they can move on and get hammered by Orlando.

As for Rondo, I don't know, maybe put Moon on him? Roker did that for the final possession of the half. It's worth a shot because those 29 points, 18 rebounds, and 13 assists came way too easy.


If "Z" was getting a bit of playing time, I think our 3 point shooting as well as our rebounding and defense would actually improve.

"Z" was nearly 50% from 3 point land this year, and he also averages 2 offensive rebounds and 3.6 defensive rebounds a game, with just under 20 minutes played. He is also typically one of our better free throw shooters.

Another thing about "Z" is that he has range on his shot, and he can hit deeper shots than Shaq. "Z" pulls the opposing center away from the rim, which opens up the lanes more. Shaq tends to clog up the middle, where "Z" occassionally clears it when he steps out away from the rim, because you have to guard him all the way to the 3 point line.

The two best 3 point shooters on the Cavs this regular season were Gibson, and "Z" both nearly hitting their 3s at a 50% clip and neither one are going to see any playing time.

Another thing I don't get and I sorta understand having a short rotation, but one of the Cavs Strengths in the regular season was the bench. Why not just go back to a regular season rotation, and continually throw fresh bodies at the old Celtics?

Mike Brown must know what he is doing, right?
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Ziner » Mon May 10, 2010 2:49 pm

Haha, strange I didnt see you pop in Saturday. Guess Mike Brown forgot how to coach from Friday to Sunday.

Here is some in depth analysis for ya

Another thing about "Z" is that he has range on his shot, and he can hit deeper shots than Shaq
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby FUDU » Mon May 10, 2010 2:49 pm

Is Tree suggesting Z should be on the floor shooting 3's in the EC semis?
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon May 10, 2010 2:52 pm

This is swiftly becoming just like the Browns board where everyone clamors for the backup QB, because that's some magical fix to the problem.

"Z" Isn't seeing minutes on the floor because he FUCKING SUCKS. He gets TORCHED on defense (read: embarassingly wrecked off the dribble and bulled to the hoop, there are ZERO centers he can guard effectively at this point) he can't make those wide open pick n' pop jumpers that he did for most of his career (look at his goddamn eFG% this year, Tree/Pros) Seriously. Watch the games. This is ridiculous.

Boobie hasn't seen the court because he's only good at one thing: shooting spot up threes. I'll give you that his perimeter defense is far better than Mo, but he has a crappy midrange game, can't fascilitate for others, and is like 5'4". (Meaning, even if he is tenacious on the dribble, taller guards just bombs away over him) He may be able to defend Rondo on the dribble a little bit better, but he still isn't fast enough to stay with him laterally.) You can make arguments for Boobie, at least, but its far more important for the Cavs health to have Mo Williams get a shooting groove than to throw 1 dimensional boobie freaking gibson out there.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon May 10, 2010 2:52 pm

FUDU wrote:Is Tree suggesting Z should be on the floor shooting 3's in the EC semis?


Yes. Yes he is.
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Re: cavs v celtics - game 4

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon May 10, 2010 2:54 pm

I think we'd _all_ like to see more Moon on the court, though.
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