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Bulls vs. Cavs and the rights to the #2 seed

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Bulls vs. Cavs and the rights to the #2 seed

Unread postby consigliere » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:57 pm

Looks like Saturday's Bulls/Cavs game at the United Center is now going to be a HUGE game to determine the 2 seed. I believe that if the Cavs/Bulls tie with the final reg season record, that head-to-head is considered (no?). If so, the Cavaliers have to win Sat. Otherwise, a Bulls win gives them the season series 3-1 and essentially it counts as TWO wins that game.

I am unsure how they would break a 2-2 reg season record between the two. Hopefully one of the more knowledgable NBA guys can explain it (Mac? Rich? Whoever?).

Anyway, with only 10 games left, that is a huge game. IMO, the Cavs need to avoid the #5 seed. Sure, they would still have homecourt against the #4 seed, but two things happen I don't like with the #5 seed:

1. Our eventual matchup with Detroit gets moved up a round from EC Finals to EC Semi-Finals.

2. We have a much tougher opponent the 1st round. Who would you rather play? A struggling NY, NJ, Orlando or Indiana squad all under .500? Or, a scary Heat, Wizards, or Raptors squad in the first round?

And, as I type this, once again Mike Brown harps on the effort on defense and "not getting stops." Give it a rest man!!! Agreed they need more stops (Knicks shot 50%)....but man, you have to score too! We shot 38%.
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Unread postby FUDU » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:01 pm

Who would you rather play? A struggling NY, NJ, Orlando or Indiana squad all under .500?


Definitely not NY.

Honestly, they could easily take us to an elimination game, and at that point anything can happen.

All things considered they own us. 4-7 since LeBron's rookie year. He should beat them single handedly.
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This game is huge!

Unread postby jdrake10 » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:12 am

This game will likely be the difference between a #2 seed and a #5 seed. The NBA now takes best record in the conference into consideration; however, the 3 division champs can be seeded no worse than #4. Because the Central division is loaded with the 3 best teams record wise this rule will come into play.

So if the season ended today Chicago would get hosed and would be the #5 seed even thought they currently have the third best record (see conference link). Thus either Chicago or Cleveland is likely to open up the playoffs on the road at Washington instead of hosting the first round.

Then even with a first round series win, as the #5 seed you go play the #1 seed on the road instead of hosting the second round as the #2.

This game is insanely huge.

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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:19 am

Just an FYI, seeding does NOT determine homecourt advantage. If the Bulls or Cavs finish with the #5 seed and they have a better regular season record than the #4 seed (most likely), the Cavs/Bulls open at home and have homecourt advantage.

If the NBA is going to give homecourt advantage to the team with the best record regardless of seed.....why bother with seeding then? Geeze. I think they should just go with the top 4 records get the top four seeds. Period. That is the point of seeding, to ensure that the best teams don't play each other earlier than they have to.

This screws the loser of the Cavs/Bulls and the Pistons. It means the Pistons have to most likely play the team with the 3rd best record in the second round......when instead under normal seeding, as a #1 seed you would not have to play a #2 or #3 seed (2nd and 3rd best record teams) until the conference finals.
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Unread postby jdrake10 » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:21 am

Upon further review, it appears home court advantage is based upon best record, not seeding? So my post above is not fully correct. Why bother having seeds then? Or at least call the seeds in the correct order according to win/loss record? I am a bit confused. It does not appear to matter much if we are a #5 seed or a #3 seed because we would still host the first round (I think).
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Unread postby jdrake10 » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:24 am

I see your point about the Pistons being screwed. The changes that the NBA made were supposed to avoid the 2 best teams playing in the semi-finals. But Stern did not consider the fact that #1 vs. #3 is still a problem in the semi-finals. These guys get paid a lot of money to be idiots.
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:39 am

Yep. #1 and #3 seeds get screwed....and #2 seed gets the best "seeding" which is why it is so important for the Cavs to get that #2 seed. The avoid the Bulls and Pistons in the playoffs until the EC Finals, as well as one of the division winners Wash/Mia/Tor.

I am MUCH more comfortable as the #2 seed and getting to the EC Finals only having to get through three other teams in their bracket like say Indiana, Toronto and Washington.....than being the #5 seed and having these three other teams in their bracket: Miami, Detroit and the Knicks.

Plus, as the #2 seed we guarantee homecourt until the EC Finals....but as the #5 seed only likely get homecourt in the 1st round since we'd likely have the Pistons in the second round.

As you can see, that #2 seed is huge.....and based on the placement of teams with the NBA's ridiculous seeding methods, the #2 seed is arguably more valuable than the #1 seed.
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Unread postby pup » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:05 am

Plus, as the #2 seed we guarantee homecourt until the EC Finals....but as the #5 seed only likely get homecourt in the 1st round since we'd likely have the Pistons in the second round.


But then we could get it back for the EC Finals if we beat Detroit and someone upsets Chicago! That is the only bright spot I could find this AM. And it isn't much of one. Sorry. Carry on...
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:16 am

Touche.

Although, I believe most would be in agreement they'd rather play Detroit in the Conference Finals. You gotta play Detroit most likely at some point, but I fear playing them in the semis would result in them tanking in the EC Finals since we will expense so much energy to beat them (sort of like the argument most have made happened with Detroit when they played Miami last year).
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Unread postby pup » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:26 pm

I would much rather play detroit in the finals, just looking for something to be positive about after they tank it on Saturday.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:07 pm

Tony, the next tiebreaker after head-to-head would be the record in the division if both teams are in the same division. Chicago is currently 11-3 in the division while we are 8-5. We're going to need some help if we tie even if we beat the Bulls.

This game is critical and it makes Saturday the biggest basketball day in the history of the state of Ohio.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:39 pm

Big win by the Cavaliers today. They are not out of the woods with the #2 seed yet, but this was a key game to secure that seed.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:42 pm

Big win by the Cavs is right. And, after a big win I don't want to come off too negative, so mayber you guys can anwer a few questions;

1. Where the hell was Z in the 4th quarter and overtime? 7-10 from the field and nobody to match-up with him, yet Brown has to get Marshall some minutes? If you aren't going to use him there...

2. Why the hell is Lebron the inbounder with 3 seconds left on the shot clock? Big suprise they got an off balance 27 footer at a key point in the game.

3. Is Scott Pollard the biggest stiff of all-time? Biggest game of the year and I gotta see that zany suit and hairdo. Horrible.

4. How in the world, over a five game stretch, can a team with Lebron James on it have a starting point guard averaging ONE ASSIST PER GAME.

Again, some players stepped up, and I still don't know why it took Pavlovic 3 years to get some PT, but can Brown get the Cavs thru the playoffs?
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Unread postby swerb » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:31 am

Yeah, the situation where LeBron was the inbounder with 3 on the clock and that awful shot was hoisted (off a timeout) was just inexcusable.

The Cavs really just continue to do things that make you scratch your head late in games.

That said, we also saw yesterday why the Cavs are going to be as formidable an Eastern Conf playoff foe as anyone, Pistons included. And also why they are a superior team to Chicago.

LeBron James.

Simply put, one star of his magnitude just has so much impact late in a game. When hes intent on putting the ball on the floor, taking it to the hole, and scoring at all costs ... he's simply unstoppable. Theres nothing you can do. Having a guy like that, who can get to the rim at will, getting either a bucket or 2 FTs, that is invaluable late in games.

On Donyell, all I can fathom is that Roker is trying to keep him sharp for the playoffs, where he excelled at both ends last year. There was no other reason to justify minutes for him yesterday. His boneheaded 3 sec call and subsequent airball 3 ball from the baseline were almost killers yesterday.

OTOH, Gooden, despite not scoring, had a GREAT dirty work game. Which is a complete role reversal from Goodens game when he entered the league. Gooden deserves credit for sucking it up and filling a role with this team. Hes a superb rebounder, and a big reason the Cavs are one of the best rebounding teams in the league. At this point, its just hard to fathom Donyell getting the 4Q minutes at the 4 over Gooden like he did last year.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:10 pm

The problem, Swerb, is that they may be as formidable as anyone in the East (I disagree with the Pistons and the Heat w/Wade) but they aren't much better than ANYONE. The Bulls, Raptors...would you bet your life the Cavs beat these teams in seven?

Lebron definitely is the difference with some of these teams, but Christ, can they find a way to get the guy a few easy buckets? His offense Saturday was all Lebron. Someone handed the ball to him at the timeline and he did what he could. At least the Bulls ran some plays for their guys off of that weave, and there was a huge difference yesterday between the two teams after dead ball situations and time outs. The Bulls ran set plays, many resulting in dunks (Thomas had about 42 of them) whereas the Cavs generally lob the ball in so someone can hand it to the King. Again, look at the assist totals lately on the Cavs MINUS Lebron. He has to have a great series EVERY playoff series or they will lose.

I thought they took a step forward playing Pavlovic for Jones and whomever the hell else was getting his minutes. I also thought it was addition by subtraction putting Hughes at the point. I think we all were hoping Hughes would be better than he is. If he isn't a good player in the playoffs they are in trouble, and seeing as Snow is taking some of those minutes back....

To get to the conference finals I need to have confidence in Hughes, Brown, Marshall and Gooden. They will need them all. I just don't see it.

Hope I'm wrong.
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Unread postby swerb » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:45 pm

The East sucks.

I'll grant you the Pistons, and Miami with DWade. You are right. The Cavs will need other players to clearly elevate their games to have chances in those series.

And thats why yesterdays win was so huge. Here's the difference in their half of the bracket between the 2 and the 5 seed ...

As 2 seed

Cavs
Magic

Raptors
Wizards

As 5 seed

Cavs
Heat

Pistons
Nets

I'll be honest though, I see Cavs series versus the Bulls, Raptors, Wizards in the 2nd round playing out alot like last years 1st rd series vs the Wizards. It may not be pretty, and the series may have its share of tense moments ... but in the end, #23 is so much better than anyone thoe teams trot out, its not even funny.

Also, in the playoffs, as teams devise new ways to contain a much more aggressive and lethal LBJ, things should open up a little bit for some other guys like they did last year.

Rattle off the 30-40 greatest players in NBA history. All but a handful have titles. Thats because in the NBA, one superstar has so much more of an impact on the overall team success than in any other sport.

Through thick and thin this season, I've been of one mindset with this team. They are as good as anyone in the East with LBJ in playoff mode. We saw that yesterday. We saw it last year in the six games vs Washington, and games 3, 4, 5 vs the Pistons.

Don't get me wrong Pipe, I really agree with the vast majority of your takes on the Cavs weaknesses as a team. And it may ultimately cost them when they run into Miami or Detroit.

But even with their warts, as the bracket shapes up now, I see them as a pretty good bet to follow the Buckeyes lead and get to the Final Four this season.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:58 pm

So much for that.

Great win yesterday, followed up by a clunker to a shitty team....and the Bulls win. So, we are back to where we were going into yesterday's game. Cavs up 1/2 game for the #2 seed....but the Bulls have the tiebreaker.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Apr 02, 2007 12:36 pm

Consigliere wrote:So much for that.

Great win yesterday, followed up by a clunker to a shitty team....and the Bulls win. So, we are back to where we were going into yesterday's game. Cavs up 1/2 game for the #2 seed....but the Bulls have the tiebreaker.


So the Cavs have to match every win the Bulls put up. A win in Boston would have kept that one game of breathing room.

Usually when LeBron sits the other guys show up. Not sure what happened, but they came out flatter than a pancake. The bad call at the end sealed the deal, but the Cavs never should have been in that position.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:08 pm

Speaking of Lebron....was he *really* hurting last night? Playoff stretch and the dude sits to rest a sore knee? Does this bother anyone else (assuming he really wasn't that banged up)?
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Unread postby Dozen » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:34 pm

Consigliere wrote:Speaking of Lebron....was he *really* hurting last night? Playoff stretch and the dude sits to rest a sore knee? Does this bother anyone else (assuming he really wasn't that banged up)?



It did me.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:52 pm

Speaking of Lebron....was he *really* hurting last night? Playoff stretch and the dude sits to rest a sore knee? Does this bother anyone else (assuming he really wasn't that banged up)?



ummmmmm, yes.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:54 pm

Pup wrote:ummmmmm, yes.


Yes as in hurt? Or as in it bothered you?
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Unread postby pup » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:23 pm

Sorry. Bothered me. There is no "hurt" at this time of year. It is simply taking a game off because of who you are playing and it could cost them.
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Unread postby consigliere » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:35 pm

Pup wrote:Sorry. Bothered me. There is no "hurt" at this time of year. It is simply taking a game off because of who you are playing and it could cost them.


Agreed 100%. That irked me yesterday. I missed the game, but caught the beginning on the radio, and Tait and company did not sound too happy about it. And, rightfully so.

Would Kobe sit out? Wade? Jordan?
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Unread postby Dozen » Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:23 am

Didnt look serious enough to cost us the game it did.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:11 am

Dozen wrote:Didnt look serious enough to cost us the game it did.


Yep.

And absolutely NO ONE in our local media called him out on it, well, at least from what I could tell.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:18 pm

I think a point to be made here is that the Cavs need to be good enough to allow Lebron to take STRETCHES off if they want to win the whole ball. Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Duncan, all these guys took or take significant/strategic time off, especially in the first half of the season so they will be healthy/rested come playoff time. The guy is strong as a bull, but he still is getting beaten up more than any player in the league, especially when you consider he's making his own offense every night. You make this guy take 75 nights of beatings plus playoffs..... It just doesn't work. The stars in this league figured it out 20 years ago.
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Unread postby Dozen » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:17 pm

Or how about maybe turning it on before the all-star break? just saying........I know next year I wont buy any tix for games before the break at face value.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:57 pm

Wow, this battle for the #2 seed will come down to the wire. Bulls absolutely destroying the Pistons in Detroit tonight.
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:33 pm

All tied!

With 6 to go.

I'm telling you, if the Cavaliers lose out on the #2 seed because Lebron had to *rest* while we lost to Boston last Sunday, I'm going through the roof.

Remaining six games grouped:

Fri 4/6
Bulls- NJ
Cavs- @ WASH

Sun 4/8
Bulls- @ TOR
Cavs- @DET

Tues 4/10
Bulls- NY
Thurs 4/12
Cavs- NJ

Fri 4/13
Bulls- CHA
Sat 4/14
Cavs- ATL

Sun 4/15
Bulls- @ WASH
Tues 4/17
Cavs- @PHI

Wed 4/18
Bulls- @ NJ
Cavs- MIL

These next two games are huge. Road vs Washington tomorrow against a depleted Wizards squad then the biggie in Det on Sunday....and Chicago at home against the Nets tomorrow and at Toronto on Sun. I see the last four games playing out even, and tomorrow as well. The decider will be Sunday with the Cavs/Pistons and Bulls/Raptors outcome. Cavs pretty much need a Bulls loss and a Cavs win that Sunday for any chance.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:55 pm

Four to go...

Tues 4/10
Bulls- NY
Thurs 4/12
Cavs- NJ

Fri 4/13
Bulls- CHA
Sat 4/14
Cavs- ATL

Sun 4/15
Bulls- @ WASH
Tues 4/17
Cavs- @PHI

Wed 4/18
Bulls- @ NJ
Cavs- MIL

Absolutely no reason the Cavs can't win all four. But, you just know they'll blow one of these and finish 3-1. Which means, we need a Bulls 2-2 finish. I'm not seeing it.
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Unread postby jdrake10 » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:22 am

Thanks for the summary Consig.

I also think the Cavs can win all 4. NJ at home is the key since they are the only playoff team. So hopefully the other teams will have summer vacation on their mind and the Cavs can win out. Chicago also has a favorable schedule, but they must face NJ onl the road in their last games. Hopefully it will have meaning to NJ as they are in a tight race for the 7/8 spot.
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Unread postby consigliere » Tue Apr 10, 2007 11:56 pm

Bulls win big tonight.

Bulls magic number down to 3 for the #2 seed. The Cavaliers really have to win out.

Also, looks like the Heat are locked into the #4 seed. Are we staring at a potential dofight in the first round with Wade/Shaq and the reigning champs? How did this happen? If this does indeed happen, I hope to hell we win....but if we bow out, I hope it is a learning experience that you play hard the entire regular season start to finish.
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Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:26 am

Consigliere wrote:Bulls win big tonight.

Bulls magic number down to 3 for the #2 seed. The Cavaliers really have to win out.

Also, looks like the Heat are locked into the #4 seed. Are we staring at a potential dofight in the first round with Wade/Shaq and the reigning champs? How did this happen? If this does indeed happen, I hope to hell we win....but if we bow out, I hope it is a learning experience that you play hard the entire regular season start to finish.


I think the Cavs will get the #2 seed if they do win out. The Bulls are worse than 50% on the road this season and two of their last three are on the road. I'm not sure that the Wizards could pull off a win, but NJ might be able to. New Jersey, however, might not be all that interested in the game. Even so, I think the Bulls manage to drop one. It's up to the Cavs to win out and keep the pressure on Chicago.

New Jersey is only two games behind Washington. I'd sure love to see the Wizards drop to #7 if we end up with the #2 seed.

On the Heat front the Cavs only need to win two more games to ensure homecourt against the Heat if we're the #5 seed. At least the NBA always defers to the regular season records when determining homecourt.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:00 pm

Whelp, it is down to this:

Cavs need to win Tues and Wed, and the Bulls need to lose Wed.

Hopefully the Cavs don't "look ahead" and get caught in a trap game with the 76ers on Tues night....
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:04 am

Well, tonight should be entertaining.

Playoffs start tonight, sort of.

Cavs should have no problem with the Bucks.....so all eyes will be on the Nets/Bulls game in New Jersey. Bulls can definitely lose this one.....although, I am not banking on it.

Didn't we need the Nets to lose on the last day two years ago, and they ended up winning and getting the #8 seed while we missed the playoffs as a result? Could the Nets screw us again and now lose when we want them to win?

Should be fun to watch tonight.....
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Unread postby swerb » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:59 am

That's sweet that ESPN picked up the Bulls/Jersey game for tonight.

Clicker will be working OT tonight with the Tribe/Yanks on at 7, Cavs/Bucks at 7, and Jersey/Bulls at 7:45.

IMO ... Jersey gets it done tonight. They have a lot to play for. And the Bulls have been very inconsistent on the road, and playing amazing as of late. This is a let down spot for the Bulls.

FWIW, Bulls are a 3.5 point favorite tonight. Cavs are 14.5 point chalk.
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Unread postby GreatGoo » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:07 pm

I agree with Swerbs. I feel confident that the cavs get the 2nd seed tonight. Luck finally hits Cleveland for once.
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Unread postby Guest » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:19 pm

I'll be at the Q witnessing them grab the #2 seed.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:44 pm

Swerb wrote:That's sweet that ESPN picked up the Bulls/Jersey game for tonight.

Clicker will be working OT tonight with the Tribe/Yanks on at 7, Cavs/Bucks at 7, and Jersey/Bulls at 7:45.

IMO ... Jersey gets it done tonight. They have a lot to play for. And the Bulls have been very inconsistent on the road, and playing amazing as of late. This is a let down spot for the Bulls.

FWIW, Bulls are a 3.5 point favorite tonight. Cavs are 14.5 point chalk.


Why do you think this is a let down game for them? Man, they are playing well, I think the line, which has swelled to 4 is about right. Hopefully you are correct and they tank it.
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Unread postby pup » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:59 pm

Nets are holding up there end. Can the Cavs?
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:13 pm

Woot, Cavs with the #2 seed.

This SHOULD be a breeze to the EC Finals. Although, this is Cleveland so anything can happen. But absolutely no excuse for a 1st or 2nd round knockout.

Let the playoffs begin.
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Unread postby swerb » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:43 pm

Jersey baby! Great ball game. Bring on the Wiz.

Things ended up playing out pretty damn well for the Cavs. They avoid Miami and Detroit until the East Finals.
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