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The Cavs' team offense

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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby papacass » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:05 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:EOD I think the best bet to "fix" LBJ is getting an old ass not washed up but not elite PG in the Kidd mold into town at some point.


The "older than LBJ and still commands elite-level respect" angle is key, because in the end (ITE?) we're not just talking about a guy who LBJ trusts to run the offense, we're really talking about a guy who can come in and correct a bad habit of LBJ's. Something left over from the days of E-Snow, IHS, and further back, Wrong Rim Ricky. LBJ says he hates to dominate the ball and hates being the primary PG, but when the pressure is on, that's exactly what he does.

So the Cavs, ideally, would have a Jason Kidd-type who will force LBJ to give him the ball in pressure situations. Because what LBJ thinks he wants to do, and what he actually does, can sometimes be two different things.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Ea$t $ide » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:14 pm

Last minute of the game, Cavs are down 1 point...there isn't a player in the league LeBron is deferring the offense to. Not Chris Paul, Not Deron Williams, and CERTAINLY not Derrick rose. It's HIS team. He's the leader. He's the best player in the WORLD. Frankly, I don't want the ball in anyone's hands but his.

It's when there are 3 minutes left in the game and we start Le-Iso that bothers me.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby papacass » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:29 pm

Ea$t $ide wrote:Last minute of the game, Cavs are down 1 point...there isn't a player in the league LeBron is deferring the offense to. Not Chris Paul, Not Deron Williams, and CERTAINLY not Derrick rose. It's HIS team. He's the leader. He's the best player in the WORLD. Frankly, I don't want the ball in anyone's hands but his.

It's when there are 3 minutes left in the game and we start Le-Iso that bothers me.


I'd say there is no problem with that, except something about those 22-foot fallaways with the game on the line still bother me. It's not even that LeBron takes the ball himself, it's that everyone else stays stapled to the baseline as LBJ tries to break down his man one-on-one. No one runs a play, no one even sets a pick. Andy might show, but chances are, LBJ won't even use it.

That's how you end up with "dribble, dribble, dribble, hoist" with the game on the line. Bron is a far better shooter than he was even two years ago, but I still think that is an approach with a lower probability of success.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:52 pm

So, to !!! my own point and reaffirm aoxo's, when does taking the last shot have to do w/ being fed the ball? LBJ is pulling psuedo double teams when moving w/ out the ball, it blows my mind. He can take the last shot w/ someone else running the O.

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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:04 pm

The dearth of PG's from Kidd's ('94) draft till Harris ('04) exacerbates the problem the Cavaliers have had since drafting LeBron. While living with Mo at PG is doable, the fact remains that a real NBA PG, one that can take his man off the dribble, and initiate an offense is what this team has needs. That sad fact that we had a decade of talent very weak at that position makes it hard to land a guy that is good enough for LBJ to respect. I'm not sure a SG or SF is out there that LeBron would defer to enough to make the offense dramatically different from what it is right now. I'm not much into looking for guys that we would never be able to attain that may fit, just to catalog a list...

Edit
The LeIso problem occurs many times during the game and is not limited to end of game/quarter situations. The "pull back to 5 feet behind the 3pt line" to initiate the offense is a staple of the playbook, and makes the Cavaliers far to easy to defend. Need a general, need a PG, cuz the coaches sure aren't of the level to be telling guys what to do.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:05 am

Orenthal wrote:The dearth of PG's from Kidd's ('94) draft till Harris ('04) exacerbates the problem the Cavaliers have had since drafting LeBron. While living with Mo at PG is doable, the fact remains that a real NBA PG, one that can take his man off the dribble, and initiate an offense is what this team has needs. That sad fact that we had a decade of talent very weak at that position makes it hard to land a guy that is good enough for LBJ to respect. I'm not sure a SG or SF is out there that LeBron would defer to enough to make the offense dramatically different from what it is right now. I'm not much into looking for guys that we would never be able to attain that may fit, just to catalog a list...

Edit
The LeIso problem occurs many times during the game and is not limited to end of game/quarter situations. The "pull back to 5 feet behind the 3pt line" to initiate the offense is a staple of the playbook, and makes the Cavaliers far to easy to defend. Need a general, need a PG, cuz the coaches sure aren't of the level to be telling guys what to do.
The correlation with the dearth of true centers and the dearth of true PGs was/is amazing.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Hi Oktane » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:33 am

e0y2e3 wrote:EOD = End of Day.

Man you guys suck at acronyms.


Excuse me sir. Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the PC on the QT, because if it leaks to the VC, you could end up an MIA, and then we'd all be put on KP.


e0y2e3 wrote:He can take the last shot w/ someone else running the O.

Just sayin


Agree. But would he? That, I think, is the $64k question.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:40 am

Hi Oktane wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:He can take the last shot w/ someone else running the O.

Just sayin


Agree. But would he? That, I think, is the $64k question.
That has been my point exactly. Do you want to pay the price for a Kidd, and then find out LBJ would not defer. He might defer. Then again, he might not. After all, he is the best player on the planet. To assume he would because we think he would is not the best strategy. We may never know. And it is more more than a $64k question.

Just sayin'
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Frank Duffy » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:21 pm

As usual, I don't think LB is really the problem. We have evidence to the contrary. He let Flip and Damon hit 3-pointers to win playoff games. He passed to Drew G. who made a very nice move and won a playoff game. He also was very happy to watch Boobie get hot and bury a series of 3-pointers to bury Det. OTOH, he took over 2 games and scored the last shot on drives in that Wiz series, and of course took over that Det game. And, he watched AV drive and miss vs. Det, and Delonte miss a last secondf 3-pointer vs. Orl.

The point being, when he has faith in his teammates, I think he'll do the right thing. The problem is he doesn't have anyone now who is pretty much guaranteed to score in the clutch, and yes I'm looking at Mo. If he had Kidd, I think he' defer, at least some of the time. And if Shaq were in the game at the end, he might let the offense start through him, as he often does the rest of the game. Steven Jackson, Rip, probably too.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:22 pm

Frank Duffy wrote:As usual, I don't think LB is really the problem. We have evidence to the contrary. He let Flip and Damon hit 3-pointers to win playoff games. He passed to Drew G. who made a very nice move and won a playoff game. He also was very happy to watch Boobie get hot and bury a series of 3-pointers to bury Det. OTOH, he took over 2 games and scored the last shot on drives in that Wiz series, and of course took over that Det game. And, he watched AV drive and miss vs. Det, and Delonte miss a last secondf 3-pointer vs. Orl.

The point being, when he has faith in his teammates, I think he'll do the right thing. The problem is he doesn't have anyone now who is pretty much guaranteed to score in the clutch, and yes I'm looking at Mo. If he had Kidd, I think he' defer, at least some of the time. And if Shaq were in the game at the end, he might let the offense start through him, as he often does the rest of the game. Steven Jackson, Rip, probably too.


This, except, w/ a real PG he let start the offense things would have to develop before there was no time left on the clock.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby fundamentals » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:45 pm

When LBJ is playing like he is right now, nobody really worries about LeISO much. But when the playoffs start, LeISO cannot be relied upon each and every possession. Sick thing is.... for me, since Mo Williams has gone out, they have played better, which is kind of scary. Still wouldn't mind them making an attempt to improve the squad, just not sure if you go for another forward (with Powe on the continuing mend) or do you attempt to grab a "point guard" to facilitate more? Don't know what Ferry will do, but good gosh, LBJ's play as of late is dowright sick.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:59 am

There aren't going to be any game changing pg's available at the deadline. And we need another hybrid ass not-pg like Paris Hilton needs more blow.

I'd like to think that boobie has shown himself thoroughly capable of backing up at pg, for now. Next year with a different team makeup...maybe a diff story.
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