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The Cavs' team offense

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The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:45 am

As we approach the all-star break, I have to say that I am very pleasantly pleased that a big fear of mine has not come to fruition. Last year I thought that our offense had evolved to a new level of efficiency. <except when LeBron turned into LeIso in the playoffs> I thought they had much more movement in their offense than in previous years. I thought they did a nice job of sharing the ball, exploiting situations, setting flare screens for jump shooters when teams helped on LeBron. It was fun to watch.

My fear was that we would take a big step backwards when we lost John Kuester, our offensive guru. Would MB or Kuester's replacement be able to continue to make offensive progress? I was hugely concerned.

I must say that I am pleased with the evolution of this year's team's offense. They have adapted to Shaq (and to changing offensive schemes when Z comes in), they have adapted to injuries to key players. Guys like AV and JJ have found niches in their offensive scheme. Guys know their roles. Impressive.

Of course, none of that likely happens without the Chosen One's blessing or possibly his will.

Just a reflective observation.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:52 am

I agree with just about all you've said. They've weathered the injury storm about as well as anyone could've hoped for. As a Cleveland fan, i'm trying to keep my optimisim in check. Still got a long way to go.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby fundamentals » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:52 am

When the playoffs start, it will be interesting to see if we get steady doses of LeISO.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:57 am

Teams have zero answer for the King.

He's breaking wills of some excellent players out there.

A guy like D-wade - fantastic player, know he's going to go the rest of his career with a guy he just can't handle, and can handle him. Demoralizing league greats.

LBJ is the best passer of the ball in the league. Not only finding the open guy, but putting it in a scorable position. Not to mention his other skills open up passing opportunities. Said this 3 years ago, and he's on pace to shatter the record (if you could find such stats) but nobody...NOBODY will create more wide open shot for his teammates in their career.

He's the strongest guy in the league at his position.

He's the fastest guy in the league up and down.

He's the best defender in the league.

He's improved his shooting across the board.

He's the best going to the rim in the league.

He's a friggin' monster. Still getting better EVERY year.

And there's no answer. No answer from the BEST guys in the league.

Long live the King.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby papacass » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:21 am

Lead Pipe wrote:Teams have zero answer for the King.

He's breaking wills of some excellent players out there.

A guy like D-wade - fantastic player, know he's going to go the rest of his career with a guy he just can't handle, and can handle him. Demoralizing league greats.

LBJ is the best passer of the ball in the league. Not only finding the open guy, but putting it in a scorable position. Not to mention his other skills open up passing opportunities. Said this 3 years ago, and he's on pace to shatter the record (if you could find such stats) but nobody...NOBODY will create more wide open shot for his teammates in their career.

He's the strongest guy in the league at his position.

He's the fastest guy in the league up and down.

He's the best defender in the league.

He's improved his shooting across the board.

He's the best going to the rim in the league.

He's a friggin' monster. Still getting better EVERY year.

And there's no answer. No answer from the BEST guys in the league.

Long live the King.


We are into LBJ's prime years now. And it's possible that he could run off five or six straight years of owning the MVP award. Knowing full well that he shares a league with D-Wade, Kobe and Durant. LBJ might be good enough to be the undisputed best player in the league for the next seven years. He's that amazingly gifted, athletic, powerful and basketball-smart. And smart in general. Certainly not your stereotypical dumb jock.

There is no question that LeBron James was born to play basketball. It couldn't be any other way. Not even football. He was born to play this game that Dr. Naismith invented.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:29 am

He is awe-inspiring. And yes, he does appear to be breaking the wills of the rest of the best out there. Amazing.

Regarding his passing ability, I made the comment the other day that LBJ is JJ's Steve Nash. LBJ makes the game easy for JJ, like Nash does for his teammates.

Who actually is calling the offensive shots for the squad (besides LBJ)?
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:37 am

Papa Cass wrote:He was born to play this game that Dr. Naismith invented.

Dr. Naismith never envisioned an LBJ in his wildest dreams. LBJ defies a "position." They call him a "small forward" only because they have to call him something.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby papacass » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:38 am

OldDawg wrote:He is awe-inspiring. And yes, he does appear to be breaking the wills of the rest of the best out there. Amazing.

Regarding his passing ability, I made the comment the other day that LBJ is JJ's Steve Nash. LBJ makes the game easy for JJ, like Nash does for his teammates.

Who actually is calling the offensive shots for the squad (besides LBJ)?


I think Michael Malone handles a lot of the offensive playsets. But it might be a John Kuester role where it's more in the oversight of the playbook and general template-setting than calling specific plays. Knowing how Mike Brown runs his team, and that he has no problem allowing his vets to make on-court decisions, the offense is primarily run by LBJ, Mo and Delonte, and more recently, Boobie. Whoever initiates the offense for a given possesion calls the play. A lot of times, a play isn't even called. Which is par for the course in the NBA. It's not like the NFL, where everything is scripted by the clipboard that the coach has jammed down his pants.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Ea$t $ide » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:28 pm

the cavs are actually scoring a point more a game than they did last year. which is amazing considering they lost kuester who i thot had a lot to do with their offensive explosion last season compared to years past. i think it's like others have pointed out, LBJ is just so dominating teams simply have no answer for him. this is something the nba hasn't seen in a long time. a player so unstoppable he's running the league. like wilt, kareem and jordan. there's really nothing a team can do to shut him down.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:31 pm

LBJ is the best passer of the ball in the league. Not only finding the open guy, but putting it in a scorable position. Not to mention his other skills open up passing opportunities. Said this 3 years ago, and he's on pace to shatter the record (if you could find such stats) but nobody...NOBODY will create more wide open shot for his teammates in their career.

This.

I think I might actually recall a discussion with you on this Lead. It is sick how good LeBron is at recognizing another players comfort zone for the ball.

IMO we have a sure 6 years of this LeBron prime we are seeing right now, and I think it was Simmons that said at some point LeBron is going to give us the ultimate highlight, just never know when. My only concern for LeBron's long term future is the mileage on his body when he is 33ish. He will have the most miles of any 33 year old NBA player ever. If we have a ring or few by then I could care F'n less.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Cease » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:56 pm

Yes, LeBron is King. We shall all drool.

On the subject of TEAM, the marked improvement of the Cavs ability to score the ball WITH LEBRON ON THE BENCH shouldn't be glossed over. I don't have the stats to put up a +/- comparison year to year, but we seem to have finally shaken the "Don't Lose" mentality when LeBron gets his Q2 sit. We used to see 8 point leads evaporate before our eyes, not anymore.

With LeBron seated and Mo/West out, the Cavs have been feeding Shaq for post play and trips to the line. Shaq has responded as court-leader adding minutes of rest for Lebron by drawing fouls. That's just heady vet play.

With a full roster available, the Delonte/Z/Andy/2 shooters bench combo works well, seeing how familiar the core 3 are being on court together. IIRC vs. the Lakers on X-mas, Delonte and crew straight exploited the Lakers bench while LBJ and Kobe sat in Q2. Never happened in the past.

I really look forward to the first six minutes of Q2's. Our bench is strong enough to deliver KO punches.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:22 pm

Can I bump this thread when the only person that can (and will) ruin our offense does so in the playoffs?

And can I also state that normal teams should not have one guy on them who can beat his guy off the dribble. Shaq makes up for that somewhat right now, but this is a glaring hole.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby papacass » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:33 pm

Ea$t $ide wrote:the cavs are actually scoring a point more a game than they did last year. which is amazing considering they lost kuester who i thot had a lot to do with their offensive explosion last season compared to years past. i think it's like others have pointed out, LBJ is just so dominating teams simply have no answer for him. this is something the nba hasn't seen in a long time. a player so unstoppable he's running the league. like wilt, kareem and jordan. there's really nothing a team can do to shut him down.


As Windy has said a number of times, Kuester's role was more in process than execution. He pieced together the battle plan but he didn't lead the troops in the field. He didn't have his hand on the offensive joystick game to game.

Just because Kuester left doesn't mean the Cavs stopped running his offense. And honestly, if you have better personnel, you don't need to do some of the things the Cavs did a year ago. You can run with a bigger lineup and still score points (Exhibit A: last night). You don't have to manufacture a pseudo-post game with drive-and-kicks when you actually have a guy like Shaq who can score off the block.

Kuester was the best offensive assistant that Mike Brown has had on his staff in five years with the Cavs. But really I attribute the Cavs' ramp-up in offense last year to the addition of Mo Williams, finally giving the Cavs a second offense-initiator. This season, they have three guys who can start a play for themselves or their teammates -- LBJ, Shaq and Mo. And they can all do it in different ways.

There are brilliant coaches out there, and I don't doubt that Kuester is a smart one. But having a versatile roster makes it a lot easier for any coach to look good.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:35 pm

Delonte and Mo can beat guys of the dribble and create for others. Shaq and JJ can score when they get the ball in a decent position in the post.

I do get a little scared of extended LeISO periods in meaningful moments of the playoffs....the Orlando series just got absolutely out of hand.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:37 pm

Delonte can beat guys and get to the rim, sort of, he is still 6' 3"

Mo can create a jumper.

We have no other player that is a threat to take a guy one on one and get to the hole.

That is a big hole, period. Our offense is built in a manor that (outside of Shaq) pretty much begs LBJ to go to LeISO.

A bunch of shooters, a forced spot up shooter in MO when LBJ says so, etc.

No real creation.

For the 100th time, did you watch Mo before he came here? LBJ ate his game up and spit it out.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby papacass » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:44 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Can I bump this thread when the only person that can (and will) ruin our offense does so in the playoffs?

And can I also state that normal teams should not have one guy on them who can beat his guy off the dribble. Shaq makes up for that somewhat right now, but this is a glaring hole.


Mo can break guys down off the dribble if given the chance -- and he can get to the rim, because he has in the past. Jumpers are really a matter of preference. However, if the offense disintegrates into LeIso, he won't get that chance. Rondo can stuff Mo off the dribble, as can Chauncey. Redz, being bigger and stronger, is a better matchup to neutralize both those guys.

But Mo can run circles around the PGs on some of the other contenders. Jameer Nelson, Derek Fisher, Mike Bibby.... slow and slower. Mo can run circles around them. IF given the chance. If the Cavs get to the Finals and the Lakers are there, MB had dang well better be sure that Mo is getting the ball early and often. He abused whoever the Lakers threw at him in the Christmas matchup.

Might I add that, outside of Kobe Ninefingers, who do the Lakers have in the backcourt? Brown shows something every now and again. Farmar has upside, I guess. Vujacic? I don't think so. But for supposedly the deepest and most talented team in the league, I find the Lakers' backcourt lacking on a lot of fronts. Definitely a matchup the Cavs, with a healthy Mo and Delonte, could win in a possible Finals showdown.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:46 pm

Papa Cass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Can I bump this thread when the only person that can (and will) ruin our offense does so in the playoffs?

And can I also state that normal teams should not have one guy on them who can beat his guy off the dribble. Shaq makes up for that somewhat right now, but this is a glaring hole.


Mo can break guys down off the dribble if given the chance. If the offense disintegrates into LeIso, he won't get that chance. Rondo can stuff Mo off the dribble, as can Chauncey. Redz, being bigger and stronger, is a better matchup to neutralize both those guys.

But Mo can run circles around the PGs on some of the other contenders. Jameer Nelson, Derek Fisher, Mike Bibby.... slow and slower. Mo can run circles around them. IF given the chance. If the Cavs get to the Finals and the Lakers are there, MB had dang well better be sure that Mo is getting the ball early and often. He abused whoever the Lakers threw at him in the Christmas matchup.

Might I add that, outside of Kobe Ninefingers, who do the Lakers have in the backcourt? Brown shows something every now and again. Farmar has upside, I guess. Vujacic? I don't think so. But for supposedly the deepest and most talented team in the league, I find the Lakers' backcourt lacking on a lot of fronts. Definitely a matchup the Cavs, with a healthy Mo and Delonte, could win in a possible Finals showdown.


I highly, highly, highly anticipate a PJ Brown style signing for the Lake Show in the back court.

And even if they do pull in someone that gets bought out, you are damn right that LBJ and MB better let Mo go to town on whoever the Lake Show trots out there.

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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:02 pm

Papa Cass wrote:
Ea$t $ide wrote:the cavs are actually scoring a point more a game than they did last year. which is amazing considering they lost kuester who i thot had a lot to do with their offensive explosion last season compared to years past. i think it's like others have pointed out, LBJ is just so dominating teams simply have no answer for him. this is something the nba hasn't seen in a long time. a player so unstoppable he's running the league. like wilt, kareem and jordan. there's really nothing a team can do to shut him down.


As Windy has said a number of times, Kuester's role was more in process than execution. He pieced together the battle plan but he didn't lead the troops in the field. He didn't have his hand on the offensive joystick game to game.

Just because Kuester left doesn't mean the Cavs stopped running his offense. And honestly, if you have better personnel, you don't need to do some of the things the Cavs did a year ago. You can run with a bigger lineup and still score points (Exhibit A: last night). You don't have to manufacture a pseudo-post game with drive-and-kicks when you actually have a guy like Shaq who can score off the block.

Kuester was the best offensive assistant that Mike Brown has had on his staff in five years with the Cavs. But really I attribute the Cavs' ramp-up in offense last year to the addition of Mo Williams, finally giving the Cavs a second offense-initiator. This season, they have three guys who can start a play for themselves or their teammates -- LBJ, Shaq and Mo. And they can all do it in different ways.

There are brilliant coaches out there, and I don't doubt that Kuester is a smart one. But having a versatile roster makes it a lot easier for any coach to look good.



100% agree, and want to add that the addition of Parker and Moon, plus the added minutes and development of JJ and Boobie, give the Cavs more firepower for FINISHING plays. JJ and Moon get to the rack for dunks and can finish in ways that no player in the previous 5 years could (Wallace, Gooden, Z, Pollard, et all), and Parker and Boobie can hit the spot up shot that Marshall, Jones, Hughes, Newble, Sczerbs, etc couldn't consistently hit.

Bottom line, as much as we complain about not having players that can "make plays" we have 3-4 this year versus 1 in the past. Mo gotti was a huge addition, as is a healthy Delonte.

The players that are in the system now are better fits for Lebron's skills, and Lebron has shored up the areas of his game that were exploited previously. (Poor jump shooting, no finishing skills from the post, etc)

It's a combination of both that make the offense look so much more powerful.

Damn I feel like a homer....but the potential of this team is staggering.


Eye: We have a preoccupation with guys that are tall and lengthy. Delonte plays MUCH larger than 6'3".....he scores well in the post, finishes around the rim better than 90% of the roster, and has average ball handling skills.

Mo can also create for others, thus his 5+ APG. If Lebron wasn't on the team, I imagine the number would be closer to 7-8. He'll never be a Nash/Williams assist machine, but I'm confident in his ability to create offense for others as well as himself. He was averaging 6.3 APG playing for a GARBAGE bucks team before he was traded, while still shooting near 50%. And even ignoring that, he can make space for himself to get that jumper, which he somewhat consistently makes. (when he's on/healthy) I'm a mo gotti believer.

I watched Mo drop an insane amount of points on the cavs in the spring of 08....he could create at will when he got going, even against a defense first team like Cleveland. He's never been the primary scoring option on any team he's played on, but he still manages 13-18 pts a game and 5-6 assists. From a point guard.....shit, that's totally acceptable. We slathered all over the prospect of Larry Hughes, and I didn't think for a second that his imagined 20 ppg we were getting would also come with the assists. And the fact that he can Optimus Prime himself into a 3 pt outlet for Lebron when he is initiating the offense is DEAD FKN SEKSI, yo. It's better for the team to have that than an Andre Miller type who has to initiate.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:06 pm

Good lord it's last year all over again.

Makes my head hurt.

Our offense is LBJ + stand and shoot when it matters.

Delonte is an average handler and average finisher that looks above average because we have no one else that can.

No one else is a threat to dribble and get to the hole, which is still our biggest hole developmentally (yes, bigger than the four long term) and let's teams huge the three point line more. Right now Shaq is helping make up for that. Shaq is 38.

These two points are all that matter in what I have said. Not sure what you are rambling about that has anything to do w/ these two points.

Thanks for agreeing that LBJ has taken Mo's game, eaten it up and spit it out though.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:26 pm

Kobe Ninefingers.... :lmfao: :lmfao:
Image

I wonder what PJ brown type PG's might be available, besides the jostling to get everyone's favorite crappy average KIRK Hinrich....
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Hi Oktane » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:27 pm

Eye, serious question: If you have good ball movement (which, admittedly we do not at times), spot up shooters, a beast in the paint that requires a double-team, an elite defense, and the BEST create-his-own-shotter in the game, do you really need more than one shot creator?

Whther the answer is yes or no, and while too many shot creators can create different sorts of problems as they tend to want to (create their own shot) because they can (see ATL, ORL), I'll sign up for adding one if TBO can swing it.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:45 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Good lord it's last year all over again.

Makes my head hurt.

Our offense is LBJ + stand and shoot when it matters.

Delonte is an average handler and average finisher that looks above average because we have no one else that can.

No one else is a threat to dribble and get to the hole, which is still our biggest hole developmentally (yes, bigger than the four long term) and let's teams huge the three point line more. Right now Shaq is helping make up for that. Shaq is 38.

These two points are all that matter in what I have said. Not sure what you are rambling about that has anything to do w/ these two points.

Thanks for agreeing that LBJ has taken Mo's game, eaten it up and spit it out though.


I think this is an oversimplification. For the record, Im not even sure what that last statement means; are you saying that Mo is handicapped by Lebron? That I completely agree with, but i'm pretty comfortable with it.

Would have loved a clear upgrade for a player that can create on his own at the 2, like S-jax or Wallace, but Delonte is still better around the basket/on the drive the majority of 2 guards....especially when you realize that he's creating for the second unit when everyone is healthy while Lebron/Mo/Shaq do the bulk of the first unit.

My argument is that the personnel are capable of creating/dictating an offensive flow late in games, but the mindset doesn't support it. Lebron runs the team, and as long as that happens, its going to be some form of LeIso. Would take an accomplished, credible, veteran PG to change that mentality.

It really is the same shit over and over again, for this argument. Right now, the system is working. Later, in a tight half-court style playoff game, it might not....especially after this year when Shaq likely wont be around.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:55 pm

1) I guess I am comfortable with the ability of Mo and Delonte to create shots. Just because they don't get a ton of opportunities in this system to do that doesn't necessarily mean they can't do it. (No, I didn't follow Mo before he got here).

2) Regarding Mo being the worst ever playoff PG: Is a "typical" point guard desired for this team and its make-up? LBJ is the point guard 85% of the time anyways. He either doesn't or refuses to play off the ball. So in this setting, a PG that can bury 3s is a great thing.

3) Glaring weakness of lack of multiple creators: How many teams have multiple creators??? Seriously.

4) Parker. Not an all-star, but... How many answers at the 2-gd spot have we tried. Sasha, Welsch, Langdon, Hughes, Amon Ones, etc... At least Parker is long and does make shots. I was quite tired of all the other failed attempts at getting a guy to contribute at all at that position.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby just another fool » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:09 pm

OldDawg wrote:
2) Regarding Mo being the worst ever playoff PG:


i thought he was referring to fisher?
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby papacass » Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:40 pm

just another fool wrote:
OldDawg wrote:
2) Regarding Mo being the worst ever playoff PG:


i thought he was referring to fisher?


He was. Fisher is like E-Snow with an outside shot.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:07 pm

Good lord Old Wiggah Hangah.

I would never ever, ever have said that about Mo, I ain't Herm.

As for my deep desire for one more person who can create (especially because of LeISO). Let's put it this way, when your team spends crunch time camping around the 3 point line waiting for LBJ CHARGE AND SHOOT OR LBJ CHARGE AND PASS they become easily guarded by long ass MFers (see Magic, Celtics and Lake Show). This problem becomes exponentially worse due to Shaq's inability to play during crunch time in the playoffs (most probably, otherwise Hack a Shaq goes crazy). When you have one person that can get to the hole at an average clip (Delonte) and one that can create some space and take a jumper that doesn't bode well for much happening beyond LBJ DRIVE PASS AND OTHER GUY CHUCK!!!. If you get that one other threat the defense has to sag off him a bit, which opens up space for him to operate off of LBJ's pass and opens the door for him to initiate dribble penetration and kick it right back to LBJ.

I mean, I don't want to rattle on and on, but EOD I think our crunch time offense becomes infinitely more potent if we get someone that forces the D to at least respect the LBJ KICK as more than a guaranteed 3 ball attempt. I also think the player that is making our offense go right now is not going to see a lot of time in the last minute of games in the playoffs.

EOD: I have been saying all year that LBJ will never be all that he can be until he gets a player he trusts to run the O. I don't see that happening soon, but I see another legit two way threat on offense helping inch him a lot closer.

This isn't about regular season ball.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:43 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Good lord it's last year all over again.

Makes my head hurt.

Our offense is LBJ + stand and shoot when it matters.

Delonte is an average handler and average finisher that looks above average because we have no one else that can.

No one else is a threat to dribble and get to the hole, which is still our biggest hole developmentally (yes, bigger than the four long term) and let's teams huge the three point line more. Right now Shaq is helping make up for that. Shaq is 38.

These two points are all that matter in what I have said. Not sure what you are rambling about that has anything to do w/ these two points.

Thanks for agreeing that LBJ has taken Mo's game, eaten it up and spit it out though.


LeBron would hurt the game of the other "dribble and get to the hole." Guy can't kill an offense and not kill some new guy coming in. Would the team be better if LeBron backed off and let these other guys do their thing? I don't really know the balance between LeBron hurting or helping individual players games, but I know for sure he does kill overall team performance at times. Again you have to balance that between the times he makes ridiculous plays that wouldn't happen even if he was the ultimate team catalyst. He makes plays others cannot regardless of team composition.

His killing of the offense happens when he thinks he has to take over the game for long periods of time. Whether it is LeIso, heat checks, or one-on-one dick measuring, we need to limit that crap to one or two possessions and not minutes at a time. He needs to trust in those guys in crunchtime as he obviously trusts them 90% of the time. I believe he will defer to Shaq only because Shaq has been there, MVP, Rings, and the only guy that can be completely unstoppable. LeBron respects that, would he do the same for Iggy in crunchtime/playoffs? I don't know.

eye your point is not lost. Many on this board understand the concept. No need to try and convince everyone, we don't need a crusade.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby davemanddd » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:58 pm

yes the offense has been surprisingly very much better than i expected here lately. earlier in the season it was atrocious at times, but during the 10-game winning streak they have really kicked it up a notch, even despite the injuries to mo and delonte. then again, maybe these injuries have been a blessing in disguise as it has given other guys the opportunity to step their games up???

still, if i never see anthony parker running the point again, it will be a great finish to the season. i swear every time he runs the point, teams just double team him on a trap and he turns the ball over. he did it twice against the heat on back-to-back possessions in the 2nd quarter when lebron was on the bench for his customary rest. of course, it didn't help that nobody even attempted to make a cut to the basket to give him a better passing lane or come to him to help him out, but still, the man is no point guard. granted, he probably wouldn't have even been in that situation had boobie played in the first half, but that's beside the point.

so many people have said that "as mo goes, so goes the cavs offense" and that "d-west is the heart and soul of the team", but after watching what shaq has done while they have been out injured, i'm not so inclined to agree. having been written off earlier in the season as a "mistake", big daddy is showing that he still has plenty of gas left in the tank and actually is showing what he can do when he is more of a focal point for the offense instead of just the 3rd or 4th option. if you ask me, he has been downright dominant at times and has shown that he is still very much a force to be reckoned with. while he still blows some bunny lay-ups from time to time, lord knows he's still a vast improvement over that offensive black hole that was ben wallace.

anyway, i am so looking forward to seeing how much longer their winning streak will last. if they continue to get the sort of offense they have gotten out of shaq, j.j. and boobie and they continue to play stellar defense, i don't see any reason why they can't go undefeated all the way through the all-star break and beyond. we can only hope. go cavs!!!

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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby mattvan1 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:45 pm

e0y2e3 wrote: This isn't about regular season ball.


As someone who has trouble diagraming an inbounds play for his kids AAU team, and with the admission that most of the posters here have forgotten more about hoops than I will ever learn, I will go out on a limb and say this take is
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:53 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Good lord Old Wiggah Hangah.

I would never ever, ever have said that about Mo, I ain't Herm.

As for my deep desire for one more person who can create (especially because of LeISO). Let's put it this way, when your team spends crunch time camping around the 3 point line waiting for LBJ CHARGE AND SHOOT OR LBJ CHARGE AND PASS they become easily guarded by long ass MFers (see Magic, Celtics and Lake Show). This problem becomes exponentially worse due to Shaq's inability to play during crunch time in the playoffs (most probably, otherwise Hack a Shaq goes crazy). When you have one person that can get to the hole at an average clip (Delonte) and one that can create some space and take a jumper that doesn't bode well for much happening beyond LBJ DRIVE PASS AND OTHER GUY CHUCK!!!. If you get that one other threat the defense has to sag off him a bit, which opens up space for him to operate off of LBJ's pass and opens the door for him to initiate dribble penetration and kick it right back to LBJ.

I mean, I don't want to rattle on and on, but EOD I think our crunch time offense becomes infinitely more potent if we get someone that forces the D to at least respect the LBJ KICK as more than a guaranteed 3 ball attempt. I also think the player that is making our offense go right now is not going to see a lot of time in the last minute of games in the playoffs.

EOD: I have been saying all year that LBJ will never be all that he can be until he gets a player he trusts to run the O. I don't see that happening soon, but I see another legit two way threat on offense helping inch him a lot closer.

This isn't about regular season ball.


Who can't we match up with defensively, Eeyore? Last year it was obvious: L.A. and Orlando (and Houston, if they were a factor.)

Who is that team this year?
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:04 am

e0y2e3 wrote:As for my deep desire for one more person who can create (especially because of LeISO). Let's put it this way, when your team spends crunch time camping around the 3 point line waiting for LBJ CHARGE AND SHOOT OR LBJ CHARGE AND PASS ...


I get your point. But here is an issue you and I both wonder about, and it is all about this LeISO conversation. I have felt all along that this is a chicken or egg conversation. Especially when you listen to some of the so-called experts on these telecasts.
a) Does LBJ not have a supporting cast which necessitates LeISO, or
b) Does LBJ just go LeISO on his own in the post season for huge stretches, making it appear that he has no supporting cast.

Some of the experts will say option a), however I am fully in the b) camp.

Regarding your desire for another creator on the team at crunch time, I don't think it will matter at all. LBJ will still go LeISO. LBJ will still dominate the ball. He just will. And that scares the crap out of me. Part of me thinks LBJ wants people (especially those Barkleyesque telecasters) to say LBJ has to carry the team all by himself.

As far as your criteria of "someone LBJ can trust" to fit this bill, short of Michael Jordan in his prime, I am not sure anyone can get the ball out of LBJs hands once he makes his mind up. So another guy who can create will never have a chance to, and will just turn into another role player playing off LBJ (wasting that ability). I think you refer to that when you mention LBJ eating up Mo's game.

So if my suppositions are correct, then the most important quality in LBJs teammates are their ability to play off him. Guys that can move without the ball to get some cheap hoops (JJ and AV). Guys that can stand on the three point line and make open jumpers.

I hope that my suppositions are not correct. But thus far, in tourney time, you and I know they are correct. Our best basketball in the Orlando series was the first halves of games one and two. And in those halves, there was virtually no LeISO. However, the second halves of both games evolved into LeISOs. I don't think the game necessitated it, I think LBJ did.

We all hope that doesn't happen again. Yes, short doses of it when he "gets it going" are fine with me. More like a blast to watch. But heavy doses of it is destructive.

I actually think we are mostly in agreement about "the problem." You think there is a cure (another creator LBJ trusts). I am not sure there is. LBJ has to be the cure to LeISO.

And yes, this is ALL about the post season. This thread was about the current offense, in which I am pleased. LBJ does certainly seem to "trust" Shaq more now than before, and Shaq is making good on that trust.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:09 am

... and am I EOD? If so, what is the E???
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Ea$t $ide » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:44 am

all of you guys have made awesome points about lebron and the isolation play the cavs run with james at the top and the other 4 guys flattening out and letting him go 1 on 1. i too hate it when they do that too much, but i do see miami and la go to this set with kobe and flash. it IS a play albeit imo not a good one.

as for getting someone lebron trusts i think there may be about 3 other guys in the league james trusts as much as himself in crunch time and their names are bryant, wade and anthony and we aint getting any of those cats. but i have to ask, who does james trust on this CURRENT cavs team? it may sound crazy but i would have to say he trusts ANDY more than any of them. the play i wish they would run more is the pick and roll with andy. that play has proven to be almost unstoppable. verajao is one helluva finisher when he gets the ball on that play. after andy i would say mo or Z. it's not delonte imo. and mo really let us down in the playoffs last year. i heard him say it was something he needed to experience (frankly i didn't need to experience it at all) so hopefully mo becomes our mr big shot this year.

i also agree that if we brought in an iggy from philly, james would stifle his game and he wud become another cat standing around in awe of lebron. i thot parker had some skill getting to the hole and that playing with lebron wud get him a lot of open driving lanes but he isn't a strong enough player and has become another statue outside the 3 point line watching lebron.

MAYBE if we get into a crunch situation in the playoffs Shaq will be strong enough and respected enough by lebron to tell him to stop leiso and run a dam play when we need a bucket? but think about it, the best game james has ever won, he did it all by himself running that same iso play over and over in detroits faces...
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Hi Oktane » Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:57 am

OldDawg wrote:... and am I EOD? If so, what is the E???


EOD = end of discussion
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:23 pm

OldDawg wrote:As far as your criteria of "someone LBJ can trust" to fit this bill, short of Michael Jordan in his prime, I am not sure anyone can get the ball out of LBJs hands once he makes his mind up. So another guy who can create will never have a chance to, and will just turn into another role player playing off LBJ (wasting that ability). I think you refer to that when you mention LBJ eating up Mo's game.

+1. Unless Kobe or D-Wade are walking through that door, and maybe not even them, LeBron will stick to the one guy he truly trusts: Himself.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:51 pm

EOD = End of Day.

Man you guys suck at acronyms.

You guys also suck at addressing what I tried to outline as the impact another player that can create will have on the LeISO offense.

You guys also suck at coming up w/ names LBJ would trust. Guys like J-Kidd are at the top of the list, not Kobe or Wade. Old ass bad asses are the way a student of the game like LBJ would lean.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby aoxo1 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:59 pm

He obviously means guys LBJ trusts initiating the offense, not recreating what LeBron does.

I would make the following list:
Kidd
Paul
Deron
Billups
Rondo (probably)
Parker (maybe)
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:05 pm

You Forgot Nash and Joe J's Hybrid ass.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:07 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
OldDawg wrote:As far as your criteria of "someone LBJ can trust" to fit this bill, short of Michael Jordan in his prime, I am not sure anyone can get the ball out of LBJs hands once he makes his mind up. So another guy who can create will never have a chance to, and will just turn into another role player playing off LBJ (wasting that ability). I think you refer to that when you mention LBJ eating up Mo's game.

+1. Unless Kobe or D-Wade are walking through that door, and maybe not even them, LeBron will stick to the one guy he truly trusts: Himself.

I am holding out hope on this. We have seen LBJ be the best player in the universe, and still find ways to improve. He vastly improved his jump shot. He vastly improved his defense to the point where he is taking great pride in it and has won games with it. I am holding out hope that the reduction of LeISO and the development of trust in his teammates when it matters most will be just one more step in the growth of the player who may be the best player of all time.

My brother was an outstanding college player years ago and now lives out of state. I had had a chance to watch LBJ through four years of high school. He came home to visit after the Cavs had drafted him and my brother asked me, "How good is this LeBron James. There is no way he can live up to the hype. I think the Cavs will be lucky if the guy averages 8-10 points a game as a rookie." I told him, "the best way I can describe him is a cross between Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan." As the words came out of my mouth, I stunned myself about the magnitude of that comparison. I followed up with, "He has the size, court vision and playmaking ability of Magic, with the explosiveness, athleticism and attack game of Michael." As I look back and watch him now, I think I was dead on. I feel blessed to have "witnessed" two things in northeast ohio during my life: 1) Possibly the best basketball player of all time, and 2) the best and most exciting double-play combination in the history of the mlb (omar and robbie).
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:10 pm

Oh and D-Rose could be at that point soon.

Same w/ a John Wall (yeah I am getting that far ahead of myself).

EOD I think the best bet to "fix" LBJ is getting an old ass not washed up but not elite PG in the Kidd mold into town at some point.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:12 pm

aoxo1 wrote:He obviously means guys LBJ trusts initiating the offense, not recreating what LeBron does.

I would make the following list:
Kidd
Paul
Deron
Billups
Rondo (probably)
Parker (maybe)

e0y2e3 wrote:You Forgot Nash and Joe J's Hybrid ass.

No offense to anyone, so now we want to add one of the best point guards in the NBA to the best player in the nba and one of the best post players ever in the nba (yes he is on the downside, but you are still paying him as such). Even Gilbert has some restrictions. Lets just assemble an NBA all-star team. George Steinbrenner, anyone?
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:13 pm

I do believe I said up-thread somewhere that I can live w/ Mo and he just isn't ideal, though at some point I think we need to get an old ass mofo to come to town and retire w/ LBJ. Right now Shaq is playing that role, but that ain't gonna last long. I've covered this point as well and Cass has articulated the shit out of it.

I also do believe I broke down why having someone that can create would change the LeISO Offense.

Just sayin OD.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:14 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:EOD = End of Day.

Man you guys suck at acronyms.

Well, I thought you were addressing me. Something like "Empty-headed Old Dawg."

I do suck at TLAs.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:18 pm

OldDawg wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:EOD = End of Day.

Man you guys suck at acronyms.

Well, I thought you were addressing me. Something like "Empty-headed Old Dawg."

I do suck at TLAs.


You need to change your avatar to Blue.

And your custom title should absolutely be "You're My Boy Blue!"

You are like 1MM levels above empty headed brah.



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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:30 pm

OK, now I am really confused...

e0y2e3 wrote:You need to change your avatar to Blue.

And your custom title should absolutely be "You're My Boy Blue!"
OK, I watched the clip, and are you telling me I am a dead guy?? Or I can't sing??

e0y2e3 wrote:You are like 1MM levels above empty headed brah.
OK. Lost again. I am barely not empty headed??? 1 milimeter above empty-headed? Brah??

e0y2e3 wrote:Image
And where did you get my picture?? I am trying stay incognito here. You are not helping me at all!!
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:32 pm

e0y, quit being a pussy and go post what's on your iPod so I can make fun of it.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:33 pm

I'm listening to Kill everyone and Geezes too! by the Columbus Cock Stains at the moment.

And OD you make head hurt.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:37 pm

CCS? They suck, an embarrasment to Columbus Georgia.
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:38 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I'm listening to Kill everyone and Geezes too! by the Columbus Cock Stains at the moment.

And OD you make head hurt.

Oh well. Maybe its what you're listening to and not me. (mooning)
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Re: The Cavs' team offense

Unread postby aoxo1 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:57 pm

Yeah, I forgot Nash and purposely left Rose off. Rose could become that guy, but when I watch him play he just seems like a SG masquerading at the point.
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