Cavs @ Pacers

[hugerobot]

another relatively easy game that the cavs should win.

7:00 fso

[Ziner]

You are on a game thread roll, keep it going

[davemanddd]

another relatively easy game that the cavs should win.

7:00 fso

key word there is "should". every time somebody says something like that though, i shudder. i just hope joey crawford isn't one of the refs. we all know what happened the last time he reffed a game between the cavs & pacers, right??? ugh!!!

[peeker643]

Agree with davemanddd (yuck/shiver). They should win it it comfortably but Granger thinks it Game 7 of the GD Finals every time they play. Guess we'll see what happens shortly.

[e0y2e3]

BTW: anyone else notice huge here padding his game thread record by "stepping up" every time an easier than normal W comes across?

[hugerobot]

BTW: anyone else notice huge here padding his game thread record by "stepping up" every time an easier than normal W comes across?

[e0y2e3]

Damn, I like that.

Well played.

[peeker643]

Damn, I like that.

Well played.

Another smilie for the collection. Where's TribeZone Mike when you truly need him?

[e0y2e3]

Ha.

I do expect a lot of use out of the blah blah blah guy here by my in particular.

Not on the Facepalm level, but a high usage rate nonetheless.

[peeker643]

Ha.

I do expect a lot of use out of the blah blah blah guy here by my in particular.

Not on the Facepalm level, but a high usage rate nonetheless.

You put those in a file and pull 'em out when needed?

These are the tips that are truly important and valuable on this site. I can get a lot of run on the face palm, blah-blah-blah and the jerk off in the Tribe forums.

A lot of run.

Edit: Maybe I should add one of each to my sig line and have them at the ready.

[e0y2e3]

I had mike put my thumbup, thumbdown, tinfoil hat and facepalm in the view more smilies area.

Blah Blah Blah guy is on the other board I regularly use so I just use the image link here.

Once you save the link to it you are golden. Bookmark it.

[peeker643]

I had mike put my thumbup, thumbdown, tinfoil hat and facepalm in the view more smilies area.

Blah Blah Blah guy is on the other board I regularly use so I just use the image link here.

Once you save the link to it you are golden. Bookmark it.

Save it where though? Here somewhere or in a separate file?

[e0y2e3]

Right click on it and hit open image in new tab. Add the page it opens to bookmarks. Then just use the standard image posting and input that link whenever you want it. Hell, make a menu in your bookmarks called emoticons and add any that pop up you want, just grab the link and post as you want.

Or make Mike upload them like I did already.

Good to see you gearing up for the season in February. You're going to be ready to go, so that is a plus.

[hugerobot]

lebron with 9 assists in the first quarter

good lord

[swerb]

Offensive clinic. 9 1Q assists for LeBron. Wow.

[papacass]

AC/Freddie Mac noting about 800 times in the first quarter how dead the Pacers look. Actually, they're right. They're playing virtually no defense.

But Troy Murphy looks like he's going to put together a fairly good audition tape.

[swerb]

Can't wait for the Simmons mea culpa column on Shaq. Haven't been hearing as many fat jokes as of late.

[swerb]

AC/Freddie Mac noting about 800 times in the first quarter how dead the Pacers look. Actually, they're right. They're playing virtually no defense.

But Troy Murphy looks like he's going to put together a fairly good audition tape.

One of just three games they'll sell out this year, you'd think they'd play hard.

Cavs are sleepwalking through this game, that's the funniest part. Going at about 70%. And on pace to score 70 1H points.

[peeker643]

Right click on it and hit open image in new tab. Add the page it opens to bookmarks. Then just use the standard image posting and input that link whenever you want it. Hell, make a menu in your bookmarks called emoticons and add any that pop up you want, just grab the link and post as you want.

Or make Mike upload them like I did already.

Good to see you gearing up for the season in February. You're going to be ready to go, so that is a plus.

You're an evil smilie genius. Never considered any of it. Now I have the appropriate folder set up with 'jerk' and 'blah' in there and ready to go.

What a productive GD evening this has been. Sure, it set my immaturity level to 8-years old again, but that just keeps me young.

You ever revert from evil to benevolent and I'm afraid we're through sir.

TitoFrancona and the Tribe board has no idea what's coming.

[e0y2e3]

AC/Freddie Mac noting about 800 times in the first quarter how dead the Pacers look. Actually, they're right. They're playing virtually no defense.

Not watching the game w/ the Celtics Hawks on, but the Pacers have not played defense once this year.

Not even for a minute.

[e0y2e3]

Can't wait for the Simmons mea culpa column on Shaq. Haven't been hearing as many fat jokes as of late.

Latest BS report he allegedly hit on Shaq w/ Adande.

That said I consider Adande to be pretty worthless, so who knows.

[neoleo]

Shaq's really getting on a roll with Mo out. Good to see.

And congrats to Ced Jackson for his first NBA point.

[khetti]

Why oh why was LeBron still in the game with 2 minutes left up over 20?

I hope it wasn't just to have a shot at the triple-double...

[RedDawg53]

Shaq's really getting on a roll with Mo out. Good to see.

And congrats to Ced Jackson for his first NBA point.

I hope that isn't his ONLY point in the NBA. Idk when his 10 Day contract expires, or if the Cavs will resign him.

[Frank Duffy]

Ladies and gentlemen, Troy Murphy. 27 minutes and 4 rebounds. The other day Barkley and Smith were joking, Smith asking what you call a Power forward who gets 2 rebounds, and Barkley snickering, a small forward.

[e0y2e3]

Ladies and gentlemen, Troy Murphy. 27 minutes and 4 rebounds. The other day Barkley and Smith were joking, Smith asking what you call a Power forward who gets 2 rebounds, and Barkley snickering, a small forward.

Yeah. Good thing he isn't averaging 9.7 boards a game and stuff.....

[Ea$t $ide]

that is one pathetic indiana team...

[papacass]

that is one pathetic indiana team...

Sure is. Looks like they'll have to console themselves with the Colts.

[papacass]

AC/Freddie Mac noting about 800 times in the first quarter how dead the Pacers look. Actually, they're right. They're playing virtually no defense.

Not watching the game w/ the Celtics Hawks on, but the Pacers have not played defense once this year.

Not even for a minute.

Considering that the man on their sideline is Jim O'Brien, who is generally regarded as a defense-minded coach, I'd say that's a sign that the wheels have come off.

Also Danny Granger has turned into Sam Perkins. No one is coaching that guy up anymore.

Larry Legend won't trade Granger, Hibbert or Price. Everyone else on that roster is probably up for grabs. Which is why a Murphy deal is the fail-safe move for the Cavs.

[davemanddd]

Agree with davemanddd (yuck/shiver). They should win it it comfortably but Granger thinks it Game 7 of the GD Finals every time they play. Guess we'll see what happens shortly.

geez, peeker, you would really be surprised at how much we actually do agree. i hardly ever comment on your columns but your weekend wraps are usually spot-on with my thoughts too. that being said, it looks like we were both wrong about the pacers game. our fears ended up being totally unfounded. in this case, i am very glad to be wrong. that's the beauty of being a pessimist. even when you're wrong, it's a good thing. hee-hee!!!

[davemanddd]

AC/Freddie Mac noting about 800 times in the first quarter how dead the Pacers look. Actually, they're right. They're playing virtually no defense.

Not watching the game w/ the Celtics Hawks on, but the Pacers have not played defense once this year.

Not even for a minute.

Considering that the man on their sideline is Jim O'Brien, who is generally regarded as a defense-minded coach, I'd say that's a sign that the wheels have come off.

Also Danny Granger has turned into Sam Perkins. No one is coaching that guy up anymore.

Larry Legend won't trade Granger, Hibbert or Price. Everyone else on that roster is probably up for grabs. Which is why a Murphy deal is the fail-safe move for the Cavs.

do we really want a slow 6-11 white guy with a concave chest and no muscle tone in his biceps and who doesn't play any defense on this team??? we already had that guy 15-20 years ago. does the name "danny ferry" ring a bell???

if it's not someone like amare, jamison, david west or iggy, i don't want anybody else, unless of course there's a lakers-getting-pau-gasol-from-memphis-type-steal-of-a-deal out there to be had.

[davemanddd]

Why oh why was LeBron still in the game with 2 minutes left up over 20?

I hope it wasn't just to have a shot at the triple-double...

that's exactly what i was thinking at the time. at least he didn't pull a ricky davis trick.

[e0y2e3]

Yeah dave, because Danny Ferry (he of maxing out at 3.8 boards per game once) is very comprable to a guy that has averaged over ten boards per game five times in his career and is at 9.7 boards per game right now.

Because Danny Ferry (he who managed to average double figures in scoring per game three times in his career) is very comparable to a guy that has done it eight times now.

And as for defense Murphy is big and "passably athletic" enough he could fit into our system adequately. I love the defense argument though, as we went out and grabbed Mo. And even though Mo's refusal to fight through screens drives me nuts he is an adequate defender in this league playing on a team that can back that up w/ incredible help defense, and he has Mike Brown to thank for developing that aspect of his game and Ferry for developing the talent that surrounds him defensively. Hell even Boobie has turned into an above average perimeter defender. And I promise you Murphy's grasp on help defense and rotations would be 1,000x more advanced than J.J's. Hard to judge anyone by playing for that mess in Indy and in GS before that.

Troy Murphy is a very good player in this league, guys who can average 15 and 10 while shooting 40+% from three don't exactly grow on trees.

As for him only being able to score from three, that is also a misnomer. Over the last two years playing in the run and gun system the Pacers are employing his shot totals have been 691 and 767, before that he was only over 500 shots once in his career. Last year an astounding 45% of his shot attempts were from three, which is ridiculous (unless you are shooting at a 45% clip like he was) but prior to last year he averages around 20% of his shot attempts being threes.

I highly recommend looking at his hot spots chart if you actually think he cannot score from anywhere but three.

http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

Christ, the man crush and Jamo or die mentality here is silly.

Guy who is damn near seven feet tall, averages a double double and shoots 4% from three gets called Danny Ferry.

[e0y2e3]

AC/Freddie Mac noting about 800 times in the first quarter how dead the Pacers look. Actually, they're right. They're playing virtually no defense.

Not watching the game w/ the Celtics Hawks on, but the Pacers have not played defense once this year.

Not even for a minute.

Considering that the man on their sideline is Jim O'Brien, who is generally regarded as a defense-minded coach, I'd say that's a sign that the wheels have come off.

Jim O'Brien has had to evolve his style to fit the crew Bird put around him. He has been playing the run and gun w/ no d for a couple years now (or since the trade for Dunleavy and Murphy.

[Frank Duffy]

As Charlie Manuel (probably) once said to Shapiro, statistics don't mean crap till you see the guy play. Hughes somehow averaged 22 points a game the year before we fell for him. Donyell shot 41% on 3s the year before we got him, then, playing on a real team with pressure every game he went down to 32%.

Murphy has had a few decent games this year vs decent teams, 18 reb. vs. Bos.; 10 and 6 vs. Orl.; but 5 and 4 the last two vs. LAL and us. We don't need someone who can get 16 vs. Philly or Tor, we're in the big time now and need someone who can get a couple key boards in the crunch vs LAL or Bos. Murphy has always looked soft to me, and he got chewed up and spit out last night. Saying he he's a career 15 and 10 guy, is pushing it, especially since he's done it on poor teams. Haven't you noticed how much harder teams play against us every night? Even rounding his numbers up, they don't tell you what you can expect from him here.

It's time for Ferry to step up and get some quality for this team.

Nice work on the Worficon, though. Sorry I was its first target.

[e0y2e3]

As Charlie Manuel (probably) once said to Shapiro, statistics don't mean crap till you see the guy play. Hughes somehow averaged 22 points a game the year before we fell for him. Donyell shot 41% on 3s the year before we got him, then, playing on a real team with pressure every game he went down to 32%.

Murphy has had a few decent games this year vs decent teams, 18 reb. vs. Bos.; 10 and 6 vs. Orl.; but 5 and 4 the last two vs. LAL and us. We don't need someone who can get 16 vs. Philly or Tor, we're in the big time now and need someone who can get a couple key boards in the crunch vs LAL or Bos. Murphy has always looked soft to me, and he got chewed up and spit out last night. Saying he he's a career 15 and 10 guy, is pushing it, especially since he's done it on poor teams. Haven't you noticed how much harder teams play against us every night? Even rounding his numbers up, they don't tell you what you can expect from him here.

It's time for Ferry to step up and get some quality for this team.

Nice work on the Worficon, though. Sorry I was its first target.

A few decent games?

Dawg we are talking about 10+ boards per game five times in his NBA career. That is not a small sample size. Christ, shake yourself a bit here.

Guy gets boards. Always has and always will. This isn't Laura Hughes having one career year shooting the rock (which happens often in the NBA) or Yell turning 33 and falling off.

Career 15 and 10 is 15 and 10. J.J. Hickson manages to have how many double digit rebounding games here? W/ the way we spread teams out there are a lot of opportunities to track the ball down.

What you are wrongly accusing me of doing w/ Laura you are doing w/ Murphy. How many times have you watched him play in his career?

Guy is not a A+ stud but, again, is a very good player in this league. And you acting as if he is a proven career choker because he has had two so-so games against good teams recently is also a GINORMOUS violation of the rules of sample size. Not to mention you are ignoring the fact that w/ here he would be the beneficiary of 100x more open looks, being the third option on O, etc. Not the only player in the front court not named Hibbert (whose insane inconsistency is another subject altogether).

Watch the guy play a few times and then try and argue this. Don't watch him once and scream CHOKER!!! because that's a joke.

Now we've gone from comping him to Ferry to Laura having one career year and Yell turning 80. This is awesome. Pure Tribe board material.

I'll admit his board totals are a bit over-inflated due to pace, but that isn't the argument you are making here.

Again, this all comes down to everyone having a woody for Jamo, who could have a Yell like drop across the board at any moment now, guy is 34.

[e0y2e3]

BTW: in the past two years Murphy has upped his adjusted +/- from -10 to -1 to +1, which one would expect to take another jump by moving here.

And here is some WARP analysis of his season last year:

The Inconsistent Troy Murphy and the Consistent Pacers
October 25, 2009 · 8 Comments

Prior to this past season Troy Murphy had played at least 2,000 minutes in four seasons in his NBA career. And in these four seasons his Wins Produced and WP48 [Wins Produced per 48 minutes] were as follows:

2002-03: 9.8 Wins Produced, 0.187 WP48

2004-05: 7.9 Wins Produced, 0.159 WP48

2005-06: 9.6 Wins Produced, 0.183 WP48

2007-08: 6.6 Wins Produced, 0.151 WP48

Murphy’s average WP48 across these four seasons is 0.171, indicating that Murphy has been consistently a good, but not great, NBA player.

Unlike what we see in football and baseball, basketball players tend to be very consistent. Performance can change due to injury and age, but typically, what you have seen in the past is very similar to what you will see in the future. Consequently, given what Murphy had done in the past, we should have expected Murphy to produce about nine wins in the 2,482 minutes he played in 2008-09. Instead, Murphy produced 19.1 wins.

Again, such a leap is unusual. If we look at Basketball-Reference, we can why this leap happened. Last season Murphy – relative to what he did in the past – grabbed more rebounds and hit more of his shots. Of these two, his leap in shooting efficiency is the most dramatic. Murphy’s career adjusted field goal percentage is 0.485. Last year, though, his mark was 0.580. From beyond the arc he converted on 45% of his shots (on a career high number of attempts). Yes, Murphy in 2008-09 was a very rare big man who could both hit shots from beyond the arc and rebound at a very high rate.

Despite Murphy’s performance, though, the Pacers missed the playoffs. And when we look at Table One, we can see the problem. Beyond Murphy, the Pacers only employed one other player who played at least 1,000 minutes and posted a WP48 mark that was above average. That one player was Danny Granger, and his mark of 0.119 was only slightly above average.

Last year both Jameson and Murphy had WARP's (Wins over replacement player) of 9.0. This year Murphy is at 4.1 and Jameson at 3.7.

Now I am not championing the stats as being the end all be all, but they sure as hell back up what I have seen w/ my own eyes.

Combining having a positive adjusted +/- on a TERRIBLE team w/ WARP and you can start to see the quantifiable backdrop. Now watch the guy play more than "HE ONLY TOTALED EIGHT REBOUNDS AGAINST US AND THE LAKERS!!!!"

[e0y2e3]

PS: His eFG% (adjusted for threes) was 58% last year and is 57% this year, which is DAMN good. His per 40 minute numbers this year at 18 and 12.5.

And the Pacers offensive ration w/ Murphy is 104 points per 100 versus 101 on the season and on D it is 103.4 versus 106.8 on the season.

[Frank Duffy]

I've seen him play a lot going back to when he came up with GS - you should know by now I wouldn't muck up the site by giving you my impression of someone else's opinion, at least w/o saying so. What I've always seen is a guy who plays soft, who plays shorter than his listed 6'11", who has a slow release on his shot, though it goes in if he has time (which could be very useful here.) I've never seen him really bang - come to think of it, he's a shorter Z.

If you're telling me you've seen him play 50 times the last 2 years and he's looked like a force in the paint, and a tough defender, well, that would be great to hear. If you're telling me his woofer and tweeter averages are going up, I just don't have interest in disputing it - that's not how I evaluate things. Your stats are very impressive, I guess, but you're sort of saying, who are you going to believe, the stats or my own lying eyes.

There's really no downside to getting him if we get Z back - either he helps or he doesn't. Just I'm tired of missing out on the real talent and settling for these mooks. (And FYI, I'm almost as unexcited about Jamison.)

[papacass]

do we really want a slow 6-11 white guy with a concave chest and no muscle tone in his biceps and who doesn't play any defense on this team??? we already had that guy 15-20 years ago. does the name "danny ferry" ring a bell???

if it's not someone like amare, jamison, david west or iggy, i don't want anybody else, unless of course there's a lakers-getting-pau-gasol-from-memphis-type-steal-of-a-deal out there to be had.

So the Cavs should just move ahead and try to win a championship with J.J. Hickson starting at PF, as opposed to trading for Murphy if he's the best player available. That's one ghastly awful take.

Instead of seeing a tall, white basketball player and filling in the blanks with your preconcieved assumptions about tall, white basketball players (which is what all the Murphy-hate is about, let's be honest), go to the map:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/murphtr01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/ferryda01.html

Even a quick glance at Ferry's and Murphy's career stat lines will show you that Ferry averaged 2.8 rebounds per game for his entire career. He wasn't close to anything that even resembled a rebounder. The only two years in which Ferry averaged double figures in PPG were the two years in which he started more than half of the games he played. Ferry was, for virtually his entire career, a one-dimensional bench player.

Murphy has averaged double digits in rebounds per game four previous times in his career, and if you want to round up this year's 9.7 RPG, make it five. The only year in which he hasn't averaged at least 10 PPG is his rookie season. That has encompassed time in a uptempo Golden State offense, a slower Indiana offense and a more uptempo Indiana offense. He's been rocksteady at or around double-double production for almost a decade. And he's a career 39.6 percent 3PT shooter in a power forward's body (6'-11", 245 -- Ferry was 6'-10" and about 230 in his playing days).

Murphy does have shortcomings. He's not terribly quick afoot and he's not going to overpower anyone inside. But for anyone to say that Murphy is a garbage player that the Cavs should have no interest in is the product of ignorance or blatant attempts at argument-starting.

[davemanddd]

do we really want a slow 6-11 white guy with a concave chest and no muscle tone in his biceps and who doesn't play any defense on this team??? we already had that guy 15-20 years ago. does the name "danny ferry" ring a bell???

if it's not someone like amare, jamison, david west or iggy, i don't want anybody else, unless of course there's a lakers-getting-pau-gasol-from-memphis-type-steal-of-a-deal out there to be had.

So the Cavs should just move ahead and try to win a championship with J.J. Hickson starting at PF, as opposed to trading for Murphy if he's the best player available. That's one ghastly awful take.

Instead of seeing a tall, white basketball player and filling in the blanks with your preconcieved assumptions about tall, white basketball players (which is what all the Murphy-hate is about, let's be honest), go to the map:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/murphtr01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/ferryda01.html

Even a quick glance at Ferry's and Murphy's career stat lines will show you that Ferry averaged 2.8 rebounds per game for his entire career. He wasn't close to anything that even resembled a rebounder. The only two years in which Ferry averaged double figures in PPG were the two years in which he started more than half of the games he played. Ferry was, for virtually his entire career, a one-dimensional bench player.

Murphy has averaged double digits in rebounds per game four previous times in his career, and if you want to round up this year's 9.7 RPG, make it five. The only year in which he hasn't averaged at least 10 PPG is his rookie season. That has encompassed time in a uptempo Golden State offense, a slower Indiana offense and a more uptempo Indiana offense. He's been rocksteady at or around double-double production for almost a decade. And he's a career 39.6 percent 3PT shooter in a power forward's body (6'-11", 245 -- Ferry was 6'-10" and about 230 in his playing days).

Murphy does have shortcomings. He's not terribly quick afoot and he's not going to overpower anyone inside. But for anyone to say that Murphy is a garbage player that the Cavs should have no interest in is the product of ignorance or blatant attempts at argument-starting.

ignorance. sorry but i just don't get into all the geeky stats. i just go by what i see and what little i have seen of murphy, i'm just not impressed. i've not seen a lot of david west, jamo, amare or iggy either, but every time i do see them, i really can see their superior athleticism to that of murphy. so would it be fair to call murphy a white tyrone hill then???

[Orenthal]

Guy would be the fourth or fifth option in this offense. You're telling me you would be disappointed with a guy that is basically a double-double stretch 4 as our fourth or fifth option? The guy who is probably the most realistic option to grab in a trade? A guy who expires in 2010/2011 maintaining once again our flexibility. I never look at my income or bills either, fawking stats are so over rated...

[e0y2e3]

I've seen him play a lot going back to when he came up with GS - you should know by now I wouldn't muck up the site by giving you my impression of someone else's opinion, at least w/o saying so. What I've always seen is a guy who plays soft, who plays shorter than his listed 6'11", who has a slow release on his shot, though it goes in if he has time (which could be very useful here.) I've never seen him really bang - come to think of it, he's a shorter Z.

If you're telling me you've seen him play 50 times the last 2 years and he's looked like a force in the paint, and a tough defender, well, that would be great to hear. If you're telling me his woofer and tweeter averages are going up, I just don't have interest in disputing it - that's not how I evaluate things. Your stats are very impressive, I guess, but you're sort of saying, who are you going to believe, the stats or my own lying eyes.

There's really no downside to getting him if we get Z back - either he helps or he doesn't. Just I'm tired of missing out on the real talent and settling for these mooks. (And FYI, I'm almost as unexcited about Jamison.)

Awesome.

The comparisons keep evolving.

We've gone from Ferry to Laura and Yell to Z and Tyrone Hill.

Christ my head may explode.

Glad you watch him when he first came into the league though. Pretty relevant when his biggest leaps forward developmentally have come in the last two years.

[Orenthal]

Hey they both played for Golden State! That beats stats my friend...

[noles1]

I'm with the takes of eye here regarding Murphy. That said, what are we looking at in an offer?

Just curious, what some thoughts are.

Watching the game last night, Cavs really cruised but the TO's and lack of PG is fairly apparent. Shaq has continued to get acclimated but I'm not sure we are seeing defenses and learning much from the likes of these garbage squads. Reading some scouts views on us and others, I'm amazed at how many don't want to give us the favorite position yet. Especially when you take into consideration that Orlando and Boston have looked so lazy and poor over the past 20 games each.

[e0y2e3]

Watching Orlando spank the Hawks right now and they are clicking on all cylinders.

Still have a ways to go, but we shall see.

Also worth noting, teams are starting to get physical w/ the old C's for the first time possibly ever and the Celtics don't know how to react. Punch them in the face a bit and they don't know what to do, been relying on their bark chasing teams off for ages.

And the early rumors for Murphy were we wanted to just give up Z.

[Frank Duffy]

I've seen him play a lot going back to when he came up with GS - you should know by now I wouldn't muck up the site by giving you my impression of someone else's opinion, at least w/o saying so. What I've always seen is a guy who plays soft, who plays shorter than his listed 6'11", who has a slow release on his shot, though it goes in if he has time (which could be very useful here.) I've never seen him really bang - come to think of it, he's a shorter Z.

If you're telling me you've seen him play 50 times the last 2 years and he's looked like a force in the paint, and a tough defender, well, that would be great to hear. If you're telling me his woofer and tweeter averages are going up, I just don't have interest in disputing it - that's not how I evaluate things. Your stats are very impressive, I guess, but you're sort of saying, who are you going to believe, the stats or my own lying eyes.

There's really no downside to getting him if we get Z back - either he helps or he doesn't. Just I'm tired of missing out on the real talent and settling for these mooks. (And FYI, I'm almost as unexcited about Jamison.)

Awesome.

The comparisons keep evolving.

We've gone from Ferry to Laura and Yell to Z and Tyrone Hill.

Christ my head may explode.

Glad you watch him when he first came into the league though. Pretty relevant when his biggest leaps forward developmentally have come in the last two years.

I respect your takes, but not always your style.

Your head is going to explode becase you don't seem to be able to organize input.

I never made a silly comparion to Ferry or Tyrone Hill. I never said I only saw Murphy on GS - read the post before you make sophomoric attacks. And I never said I don't want him, just that I think we have a lot of "4th or 5th options."

You tell me to go on what I've seen, but you say he has improved the last 2 years on the basis of stats. Well, he's on a mediocre team, so his effect on his team's number of victories just doesn't seem very significant. Other teams don't take Indy seriously, so how can you really know? If you want to tell me you've seen him take rebounds away from a serious 4, or that you've seen him play solid D on KG or Odom or Gasol, great. I've seen him play,and I haven't seen him do those thngs.

Windy says we can't guarantee getting Z back if we give him up for Murphy. I'm saying if not (and a serious GM should be able to wangle it) I pass. If we can have both, go ahead, if Ferry really can't get anyone better.

[e0y2e3]

I respect your takes, but not always your style.

Your head is going to explode becase you don't seem to be able to organize input.

I never made a silly comparion to Ferry or Tyrone Hill. I never said I only saw Murphy on GS - read the post before you make sophomoric attacks. And I never said I don't want him, just that I think we have a lot of "4th or 5th options."

You tell me to go on what I've seen, but you say he has improved the last 2 years on the basis of stats. Well, he's on a mediocre team, so his effect on his team's number of victories just doesn't seem very significant. Other teams don't take Indy seriously, so how can you really know? If you want to tell me you've seen him take rebounds away from a serious 4, or that you've seen him play solid D on KG or Odom or Gasol, great. I've seen him play,and I haven't seen him do those thngs.

Windy says we can't guarantee getting Z back if we give him up for Murphy. I'm saying if not (and a serious GM should be able to wangle it) I pass. If we can have both, go ahead, if Ferry really can't get anyone better.

Ah, I get it. He's soft because you watched him in GS, Indy being a much better team w/ him on the floor doesn't matter and the physical/banging monsters at the 4 in the league like Pau, Odom and Rashard will physically beat him up. Stats (like points given up per 100 possessions w/ him on the court also don't matter because you saw him in GS). Nor does it matter that Mike Brown has a proven track record designing a defense that has taken below average defenders and made them very effective by playing great team D. And having Shaq on the block to control the paint also doesn't matter, we need another enforcer. We need an in his prime KG!

And there is also that whole Andy dynamic that doesn't matter.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd love to trade for Chris Bosh as well (oh wait, he plays almost entirely on the perimeter as well, so I guess his 13 boards a game doesn't count for anything), nevermind.

And since Indy isn't good Murphy's production doesn't matter, but Jamo and Bosh's does! Wait, there teams aren't good either, damnit!

Gawd love the physical post presence banger that is 34 year old Jamo! Now that's a guy that makes a living by tossing bows on the block!

Word.

Think man, think.

The only 4 in the East I am really worried about Murphy trying to guard to a huge degree is Josh Smith, unless KG magically gets healthy and decides to play a post game again (something he has done little of since arriving in Boston). And Andy certainly can't guard them. That's a job for Jamo!

TCF: where ten boards a game doesn't count if it's for a bad team.

How many times have you watched Murphy play since he took his game to another level two years ago? Two? One?

EOD: none of this matters, if a PF plays on the perimeter on offense and averages 10 boards per game he should be playing small forward. Take that BOSH! <- this was your original point right, Murphy only landed four boards against us so he is a SF?

[e0y2e3]

Oh and by the way, only way I can see Indy not buying out Z is if they can move Jeff Foster. Foster is a solid vet and Hibbert is a key future piece. Z is very useless to them w/ both of those players on the roster.

Unless they decide to try some twin tower silliness.

[e0y2e3]

And lastly, btw, I do agree w/ Cass that his lateral quickness is the biggest concern.