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Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

Cavs @ Pacers

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Re: Cavs @ Pacers

Unread postby Doc » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:16 am

Well, you sold me on Murphy. Love the fact that he's a big expiring next year, which keeps our roster flexibility open if he doesn't fit as expected. But, would Indy deal him for Z? Would they do it just to move 1 remaining year and maybe a Z buyout this year?

Anyways, think of the matchups. We could bang with Powe/Shaq, stretch the floor with Murphy/Z (if Z is brought back), and AV can effectively play with all 4 of those guys. That doesn't even include Hickson. It would still give us Hickson (maybe) and Wally's rights to bring in a PG/SG if needed. I'm glad that Jamison and Murphy seem to be the 2 most available options. That puts us in a great position, IMO.
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Re: Cavs @ Pacers

Unread postby Frank Duffy » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:36 am

Ok, now that's funny. It's going on midnight your time on Sat night so I can see where this is coming from.

You like stats. Relax, I never said they weren't valid, maybe they are. I'm sure you win a lot of bets. I go at things differently. I like to see one on one matchups, and I like to pay close attention to situations, like the 1st quarter vs. last, and motivated opposition vs. not. And yeah, stats are devalued when the guy is on a team no one cares about. Plenty of "best guy on a bad team" types who turn out mediocre on good teams.

All I can tell you is what I've seen, and Murphy isn't first rate. You think he's second rate and that's ok. I think he's third rate and worth a try, but not at the expense of Z.

What motivation does Bird have to buy Z out. What if Murphy is a hit - you really think he wants to be open to being called the guy that helped put Cle over the top w/ Murphy for money? Ferry needs to be sure, and I don't think he can be (although all the rumors are he's made the offer.)

Bottom line: coming into this season, the Cavs looked like the 5th best team. Right now, Shaq has stepped up. 3 of the other 4 are injured, or, hopefully, just plain old and Orl is screwed up. So, we look pretty good. If all you can get is Murphy, ok, but not at the expense of Z. That's the real question here.

I don't really believe in Jamo either, but I'm going to bed.
:cheers:
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Re: Cavs @ Pacers

Unread postby papacass » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:17 am

davemanddd wrote:ignorance. sorry but i just don't get into all the geeky stats. i just go by what i see and what little i have seen of murphy, i'm just not impressed. i've not seen a lot of david west, jamo, amare or iggy either, but every time i do see them, i really can see their superior athleticism to that of murphy. so would it be fair to call murphy a white tyrone hill then???


And you're impressed by what "lot" you've seen of J.J. Hickson?

No one is saying Murphy would be a superior pickup to any of the guys you mentioned, but the "If it isn't West/Jamo/Iguodala/Amare, I don't want to make a trade" take is really, really bad. That's basically saying "Murphy is so bad, I think we're better off sticking with starting Hickson." That's just head-smacking.

I'm not saying Ferry should settle for Murphy up front, but there is a good chance Murphy will be the best player available for the Cavs' situation. As I've mentioned on a number of occasions, Murphy is an expendable player to Indiana. He's not a franchise-caliber player, so Indiana doesn't really need to hold out for a king's ransom in young talent and/or draft picks in return. When you're talking about any of the players better than Murphy who might be available, the deal might become exponentially more complicated because you're talking about franchise-type players in the case of Jamo and Amare, and a near-franchise player in Iggy. Those teams are well within their rights to hold onto their stars until the last second, and pull them off the table if they find no offer suitable.

Murphy is in an entirely different situation. He's a veteran on a last-place team trying to build around a younger core. He's in a crowded frontcourt with Granger and Hibbert. He's owed $12 million next year. The Pacers would almost certainly take Z's expiring contract just to get Murphy's final year off their books, and would probably have no problem arranging a subsequent buyout for Z. Getting rid of Murphy would be a pure salary dump for a team like the Pacers. That might not be the case for any of the golden-goose type players further up the ladder.

It just comes down to the fact that a Murphy deal is the most plausible trade scenario out there. Even Brian Windhorst has said in the past that he thinks a Murphy deal is perhaps the most likely trade the Cavs could make. Murphy is a player who is purely dead salary weight to his current team, and a player who would bring a stretch-four skill set and some rebounding to the Cavs. Fans want sexy names, and Murphy isn't a sexy name. But if it happens, it would be a common sense pickup, given the Cavs' needs.

And did I mention that the Cavs could turn around and use Murphy's $12 million expiring in a deal this summer or next season?
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Re: Cavs @ Pacers

Unread postby papacass » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:42 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Oh and by the way, only way I can see Indy not buying out Z is if they can move Jeff Foster. Foster is a solid vet and Hibbert is a key future piece. Z is very useless to them w/ both of those players on the roster.

Unless they decide to try some twin tower silliness.


Z is of no value to the Pacers in really any situation, other than having his contract come off their books. I can't see a lottery-bound team with no vested interest in who wins the NBA title this year saying "Sorry, Cleveland, but we're keeping this 34-year-old center who will play seven weeks for us and won't be on our team next season."

Z has a card to play in this, too. If we remember back to the Dice/Chauncey/AI trade of early last season, the Nugs didn't want to buy Dice out, but Dice refused to report to Denver and forced the Nugs' hand. So even if the Pacers refused to buy Z out, Z can still pressure the Pacers by going AWOL.

But I can't see it coming to that. The Cavs would be doing Indiana a major favor by taking Murphy's contract off their books, so Larry Bird would probably be more than happy to accomodate the buyout request.
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Re: Cavs @ Pacers

Unread postby Ea$t $ide » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:48 am

Papa Cass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Oh and by the way, only way I can see Indy not buying out Z is if they can move Jeff Foster. Foster is a solid vet and Hibbert is a key future piece. Z is very useless to them w/ both of those players on the roster.

Unless they decide to try some twin tower silliness.


Z is of no value to the Pacers in really any situation, other than having his contract come off their books. I can't see a lottery-bound team with no vested interest in who wins the NBA title this year saying "Sorry, Cleveland, but we're keeping this 34-year-old center who will play seven weeks for us and won't be on our team next season."

Z has a card to play in this, too. If we remember back to the Dice/Chauncey/AI trade of early last season, the Nugs didn't want to buy Dice out, but Dice refused to report to Denver and forced the Nugs' hand. So even if the Pacers refused to buy Z out, Z can still pressure the Pacers by going AWOL.

But I can't see it coming to that. The Cavs would be doing Indiana a major favor by taking Murphy's contract off their books, so Larry Bird would probably be more than happy to accomodate the buyout request.



cass wud it be against league rules for the cavs to offer to pay the buyout FOR indiana on z? like...here we're trading you z so you can buy him out but we're going to give you the buyout money?


thanks
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Re: Cavs @ Pacers

Unread postby davemanddd » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:02 am

Ea$t $ide wrote:
Papa Cass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Oh and by the way, only way I can see Indy not buying out Z is if they can move Jeff Foster. Foster is a solid vet and Hibbert is a key future piece. Z is very useless to them w/ both of those players on the roster.

Unless they decide to try some twin tower silliness.


Z is of no value to the Pacers in really any situation, other than having his contract come off their books. I can't see a lottery-bound team with no vested interest in who wins the NBA title this year saying "Sorry, Cleveland, but we're keeping this 34-year-old center who will play seven weeks for us and won't be on our team next season."

Z has a card to play in this, too. If we remember back to the Dice/Chauncey/AI trade of early last season, the Nugs didn't want to buy Dice out, but Dice refused to report to Denver and forced the Nugs' hand. So even if the Pacers refused to buy Z out, Z can still pressure the Pacers by going AWOL.

But I can't see it coming to that. The Cavs would be doing Indiana a major favor by taking Murphy's contract off their books, so Larry Bird would probably be more than happy to accomodate the buyout request.



cass wud it be against league rules for the cavs to offer to pay the buyout FOR indiana on z? like...here we're trading you z so you can buy him out but we're going to give you the buyout money?


thanks


good idea but i think it might violate the nba's collective bargaining agreement.
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Re: Cavs @ Pacers

Unread postby papacass » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:13 am

Ea$t $ide wrote:cass wud it be against league rules for the cavs to offer to pay the buyout FOR indiana on z? like...here we're trading you z so you can buy him out but we're going to give you the buyout money?


thanks


http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/01/cavaliers_havent_given_up_yet.html

Take a look at this article, about seven paragraphs in. FWIW, Windy says Murphy and Jamo are "still very much in play" but "increasingly unlikely." These things change by the day, however.

It boils down to this: the Cavs cannot influence a Z buyout decision in any way. They can't talk to Z about it before a trade, they can't make it a condition of the trade and they can't pressure a team into releasing Z after the trade. Once a deal is made, the buyout decision is strictly between Z and the team that receives him. If the Cavs try to influence the process, the NBA would probably void the deal and David Stern would slap the Cavs with a penalty, maybe even to the point of docking them draft picks -- a favorite Stern method of punishment when a team tries to get away with doing things under the table.

Once a deal is made, all the Cavs can do is sit back, watch and hope. Which makes trading Z more of a gamble and a more difficult decision for Ferry than it might seem on the surface.
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Re: Cavs @ Pacers

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:56 am

Papa Cass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Oh and by the way, only way I can see Indy not buying out Z is if they can move Jeff Foster. Foster is a solid vet and Hibbert is a key future piece. Z is very useless to them w/ both of those players on the roster.

Unless they decide to try some twin tower silliness.


Z is of no value to the Pacers in really any situation, other than having his contract come off their books. I can't see a lottery-bound team with no vested interest in who wins the NBA title this year saying "Sorry, Cleveland, but we're keeping this 34-year-old center who will play seven weeks for us and won't be on our team next season."

Z has a card to play in this, too. If we remember back to the Dice/Chauncey/AI trade of early last season, the Nugs didn't want to buy Dice out, but Dice refused to report to Denver and forced the Nugs' hand. So even if the Pacers refused to buy Z out, Z can still pressure the Pacers by going AWOL.

But I can't see it coming to that. The Cavs would be doing Indiana a major favor by taking Murphy's contract off their books, so Larry Bird would probably be more than happy to accomodate the buyout request.


I mentioned it last week in either the tWW or another column (or maybe it was here on the boards, I can't recall) that Bird has already told the Cavs he'd renounce Z. It's not a concern as to Indiana. Z also advised he'd be good with a 30 day vacation and refresher session for the stretch run.

From a friend of Z's.
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


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