Celtics vs Magic

[fabs227]

I don’t know if anyone else is watching or watched this game. It seems to me the Celtics look slow. I realize KG and Pierce are not healthy at all, but something seems to be missing from this team. I have never been a big fan of Rondo, but it looks like he disappeared defensively in this game. As for the Magic, I said from the day the acquired Vince Carter they went backwards. TNT showed him in a TO earlier and he was off in his own world. This team looks like a shell of what they were a year ago. I think this team was a flash in the pan and hit on all cylinders last year. Bottom line is a team like Atlanta and maybe a healthy Boston scare me more than Orlando.
As for the Cavs, I agree I think they need an upgrade at the 4 spot, but not without the ability to get Z back after his release. In an earlier link about AP being a starter, I agree he may be better suited coming off the bench. Although, this year with Lebron , Shaq, and Mo you need a player like him that does not command the ball and can shoot from the outside. I do not think this team would be better with Andre Iquodala this season. Call me ridiculous, but he is a player that commands the ball too much. I still think a stretch 4 is the way to go. Any thoughts?

[swerb]

Agree with every word. Good post. Contribute more often.

[Ziner]

KG looked slooooow, with absolutely no hops. I cant imagine him getting back to 100% for the rest of his career. His 80% is still good, its just not scary.

[daddywags]

Watched a good bit of the game and I agree on Boston. Their defense was surprisingly bad. Rondo's an improving offensive threat, but you can't let Rashard Lewis waltz to the hole with 1 second left if you're going to be a serious championship contender. They'll have to clean that stuff up somehow.

Orlando is an enigma. Maybe Turkey-glue meant more than everyone thought for that team or maybe it's just growing pains. Young teams don't always go from after-thoughts to perennial champsionship contenders without a few hiccups. Atlanta doesn't worry me. Maybe it's just me, but when I look at NBA teams I focus on the bigs first. If they don't have serious bigs they won't be serious contenders. Atlanta doesn't have the bigs.

As for the Cavs, I agree on Iggy. Nice player. Not a good fit here. I'm pretty much the same on Amare. I think the best fit far and away is Jamison, but I doubt we can get him. If all it takes is Z, JJ and a pick I'm all over that but somehow I think they keep him. The other option is Troy Murphy, and I'm fine with that, but it'll be interesting to see whether Ferry and Bird can get together on that. Both, reportedly, are looking to "win" any trade they make. Not a good recipe for a deal, IMhO.

[papacass]

Stretch four is the only way to go, and it's the only way the Cavs are looking. The rumor about Iggy was that the Sixers had pitched the Cavs, and even that rumor said it would be a hard sell to Ferry. If the rumor itself says that, it probably means it's dang near an impossibility.

The only thing I'd caution about the Celtics is that they're really good at playing the bend-but-don't-break game. They're definitely starting to look like a team losing tread on its tires (part of the package deal Danny Ainge knew he was getting when he built the team around vets two and a half year ago) but they're also a gritty bunch that somehow put the Magic in a 3-2 series hole last spring despite being down KG and Powe. They're going to be a tough out for whoever plays them.

Orlando .... I'm starting to think that last season for them was the product of just having a bunch of guys all playing well at the right time. Losing Hedo hurt them, but beyond that, there are so many guys flat-out having mediocre-to-crappy years in Orlando. They're starting to look like a team of role players as opposed to a team brimming with borderline-all star talent. Not a fair assessment in the case of Dewey, I realize, but for everyone else, the shoe seems to fit.

Atlanta doesn't scare me all that much, either, because the Cavs have consistently handled them, they don't match up all that well against Cleveland, and while they're a solid defensive team, they really don't play D at an elite level.

Ultimately, Boston still concerns me the most of any team in the East. But the way things are going among the understood East contenders, that five-game conference lead for the Cavs might not be a mirage. Time will tell.

[e0y2e3]

Watched a good bit of the game and I agree on Boston. Their defense was surprisingly bad. Rondo's an improving offensive threat, but you can't let Rashard Lewis waltz to the hole with 1 second left if you're going to be a serious championship contender. They'll have to clean that stuff up somehow.

That means keeping Rasheed off the court to be honest.

I admit to thinking he would turn it on if a contender signed him.

Wrong on my part, by a lot.

Guy is a disaster. It's amazing.

[e0y2e3]

Stretch four is the only way to go, and it's the only way the Cavs are looking. The rumor about Iggy was that the Sixers had pitched the Cavs, and even that rumor said it would be a hard sell to Ferry. If the rumor itself says that, it probably means it's dang near an impossibility.

Yes and no, we know Ferry made several offers for S-Jax.

IMO, it depends on if he thinks Iggy can morph into a 2 here like S-Jax did in Charlotte.

Looks like he doesn't think that, but saying "stretch four is only way to go" after we already tried 3 times to get a real two here is disingenuous.

[Gradysmanldy]

The fact that the Boston honks here thought that KG would return to some semblance of his ruthless self with a knee that is STAPLED TOGETHER and holding on by PRAYERS AND MAGIC is absolutely ridicu.....shit, wait. It's NE fans/media. Same folks who suggested trading Papelbon/Brady after the seasons were over because they were washed up. Mer.

[OldDawg]

Orlando .... I'm starting to think that last season for them was the product of just having a bunch of guys all playing well at the right time. Losing Hedo hurt them, but beyond that, there are so many guys flat-out having mediocre-to-crappy years in Orlando. They're starting to look like a team of role players as opposed to a team brimming with borderline-all star talent. Not a fair assessment in the case of Dewey, I realize, but for everyone else, the shoe seems to fit.

From what I could tell last spring, I thought that the only series Orlando really looked good in was against us. I don't think they looked all that great in any of their other series. So maybe our series with the Magic "was the product of just having a bunch of guys all playing well at the right time."

[papacass]

Stretch four is the only way to go, and it's the only way the Cavs are looking. The rumor about Iggy was that the Sixers had pitched the Cavs, and even that rumor said it would be a hard sell to Ferry. If the rumor itself says that, it probably means it's dang near an impossibility.

Yes and no, we know Ferry made several offers for S-Jax.

IMO, it depends on if he thinks Iggy can morph into a 2 here like S-Jax did in Charlotte.

Looks like he doesn't think that, but saying "stretch four is only way to go" after we already tried 3 times to get a real two here is disingenuous.

Yes, but that might have been specific to S-Jax. Specifically targeting one player doesn't necessarily correlate to looking for a position upgrade any which way you can. I think of the S-Jax pursuit more as repeated attempts at a crime of opportunity. In terms of needing a specific player to fit a mold to help this team, stretch four is the only way to go.

[OldDawg]

Oh, and this is a Celtics vs Magic thread and no one has mentioned a score yet. I guess I gotta go look it up.

[e0y2e3]

Stretch four is the only way to go, and it's the only way the Cavs are looking. The rumor about Iggy was that the Sixers had pitched the Cavs, and even that rumor said it would be a hard sell to Ferry. If the rumor itself says that, it probably means it's dang near an impossibility.

Yes and no, we know Ferry made several offers for S-Jax.

IMO, it depends on if he thinks Iggy can morph into a 2 here like S-Jax did in Charlotte.

Looks like he doesn't think that, but saying "stretch four is only way to go" after we already tried 3 times to get a real two here is disingenuous.

Yes, but that might have been specific to S-Jax. Specifically targeting one player doesn't necessarily correlate to looking for a position upgrade any which way you can. I think of the S-Jax pursuit more as repeated attempts at a crime of opportunity. In terms of needing a specific player to fit a mold to help this team, stretch four is the only way to go.

So Ron Ron, Ariza, the corpse of Anthony Parker, et al do not count?

Sure, it was just specific to S-Jax.

[Gradysmanldy]

I'm not dead yet!

Yes you are. *thump*

[papacass]

Orlando .... I'm starting to think that last season for them was the product of just having a bunch of guys all playing well at the right time. Losing Hedo hurt them, but beyond that, there are so many guys flat-out having mediocre-to-crappy years in Orlando. They're starting to look like a team of role players as opposed to a team brimming with borderline-all star talent. Not a fair assessment in the case of Dewey, I realize, but for everyone else, the shoe seems to fit.

From what I could tell last spring, I thought that the only series Orlando really looked good in was against us. I don't think they looked all that great in any of their other series. So maybe our series with the Magic "was the product of just having a bunch of guys all playing well at the right time."

Also the product of horrific matchup advantages that started with having no one to guard Dewey in the post and no one to guard Hedo running the point. Neutralize those matchups (i.e. Magic lose Hedo, Cavs gain Shaq) and factor in Orlando's overall regression in play, and they just kind of look pedestrial so far this year.

Again, lots of time for Orlando to improve. But if the Cavs play this Orlando team, playing at this level, in the playoffs, they're dropping the Magic in five or six.

[papacass]

So Ron Ron, Ariza, the corpse of Anthony Parker, et al do not count?

Sure, it was just specific to S-Jax.

I thought we were talking about after the summer. Obviously the Cavs needed wing help following the Orlando series, which led them to sign AP and Moon after Artest and Ariza balked at the the Cavs' MLE money.

When you're talking about at least the most recent play for S-Jax and any supposed interest in Iguodala, versus the signings of AP and Moon, you're talking about two different sets of potential moves. AP and Moon filled a need that was ostensibly filled. S-Jax, you're talking about something that happened in the aftermath of Delonte's arrest and emotional problems, and at a time when Nellie really wanted to move Jax. Hence, the crime of opportunity.

Did the Cavs absolutely need Jax? Probably not. Was Ferry attempting to take advantage of the situation? Certainly.

I guess I'll have to chow down on some crow if Iggy is a Cav on Feb. 19, but I find it extremely hard to believe that Ferry is going to upgrade SG with a converted SF, but leave the PF situation unresolved.

[e0y2e3]

but I find it extremely hard to believe that Ferry is going to upgrade SG with a converted SF, but leave the PF situation unresolved.

I have no problem w/ this line of thinking. None at all. But ignoring the fact that Moon is as much as 4 as he is a 2 and that Parker is old and not very good anymore is impossible. As I have said repeatedly, 2 is only a notch or two behind 4 on the need spectrum. If Iggy is the only potential 2 that comes available and Ferry decides he isn't going to solve our huge hole at the start 2 I am fine w/ that. But "stretch four or die" is a terrible mentality. We have two positions that are lacking. And that includes Delonte off the bench.

We settled in the summer and Due to the Magic falling apart at the seems it appears on the surface that we accomplished what we wanted there. But lets be real. Parker is as legit a starting 2 in this league as D-Fisch is a starting 1 and Moon is a role player off the bench.

Again, since no one seems to be reading me saying this "I HAVE NO ISSUES W/ NOT TRADING FOR IGGY" but we have to look at the 2 as hard as we do the 4. And I agree that should a 4 and a 2 come available of equal talent you bring in the 4.

[neoleo]

I guess I'll have to chow down on some crow if Iggy is a Cav on Feb. 19, but I find it extremely hard to believe that Ferry is going to upgrade SG with a converted SF, but leave the PF situation unresolved.

Or is this the trade that resolves the PF situation? Is there any chance Ferry makes this trade and Brown keeps AP in the lineup at the 2, inserts Iggy at the 3 and moves LBJ to the 4. You'd still have Anderson, Powe and Z (eventually) on the bench to go big when needed.

[fundamentals]

Orlando wins the game by two after being down 16 in second half. Rashard Lewis made a driving layup with 1.3 seconds left to secure the win. Rasheeeeeeeed missed a three to win it at buzzer. I didn't really care who won and maybe it's just me, but is Dwight Howard targeted every night by the referees? Seems as if every "big" game the guy is in immediate foul trouble, not saying he doesn't foul, but with all the physicality going on, weird.

[British_Pharaoh]

Quite the 4th Quarter by the Magic, and it got us the result we wanted.

[CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07!]

Not sure which play was sadder for NBA fans - Rashard Lewis blowing by KG like he wasnt even there; KG's inability to complete a perfect alley-oop from Rondo because it was an inch too high; or Elton Brand's inability to dunk a game winner from directly under the hoop with no one near him (on Wednesday night).

Some stars dont decline - they plummet.

[papacass]

Some stars dont decline - they plummet.

It's all in the knees. If your knees crap out, you crap out. Guys can plod along for years with bad backs and arthritic shoulders and screws holding together various body parts. But when those knees start to go, bye bye speed, leaping and cutting ability.

That is the one huge caveat with making a long term commitment to Amare. He had double knee microfracture at a young enough age where the prospects for recovery are still pretty good. He's still an elite scorer, and could be for the next 7-10 years. But if he encounters any additional knee problems, he could turn into Elton Brand in a finger snap.

[rebelwithoutaclue]

Not sure which play was sadder for NBA fans - Rashard Lewis blowing by KG like he wasnt even there; KG's inability to complete a perfect alley-oop from Rondo because it was an inch too high; or Elton Brand's inability to dunk a game winner from directly under the hoop with no one near him (on Wednesday night).

Some stars dont decline - they plummet.

You forgot Wince Carter's entire game. 2-13 and benched almost the entire 4th quarter. I think we're getting to the point with some of these guys that they're gonna be DNP (Old) or DNP (Washed-up). Still can't believe how some pundits keep touting the Celtics. They're old. Really old. KG will never be the same. Sheed couldn't care less as long as he can play the perimeter and jack up 3's all game. Only a matter of time with Ray Ray and PP.

[Kingpin74]

The Magic had a weird strategy over the offseason. Carter obviously hasn't worked out but I understood it at the time because he wouldn't have to be a leader, he's off the books in 2011, and Turk wanted big money for five years at age 31. But then they gave Brandon Bass 4 years for 16 mill(glued to the bench now) and matched Gortat for something like 5 years 30 mill. Matt Barnes and White Chocolate have saved them and they signed both for close to the minimum. Their bench doesn't make sense to me, it's very good but it has 7 players of basically equal talent. It's a waste. If you're watching your costs fine, but be consistent. They essentially gave away their biggest matchup advantage over the Cavs for a wash money wise. I'd be very surprised if they could beat them a 7 game series again.

As for the Celtics, KG looks like Chris Webber dragging that leg around. They have the division under control, they'd be best to shut him down until he's at least close to full strength. Their bench stinks too, they need a trade a lot worse than the Cavs do.

[papacass]

As for the Celtics, KG looks like Chris Webber dragging that leg around. They have the division under control, they'd be best to shut him down until he's at least close to full strength.

The Raptors are playing good ball over the past month, and they've crept back to within six games of Boston. Boston is only one more game up on the Raps than the Cavs are on the Celtics.

I don't seriously think Toronto will catch Boston for the division title. But the C's really aren't in a position anymore where they can take the division title for granted and go into power-save mode.

[scott]

Ultimately, Boston still concerns me the most of any team in the East.

Only team that concerns me in the East, even with a brokedown KG. We don't have a good answer for Rondo and Pierce always picks up his game against the Cavs because he thinks he is at the same level as Bron.

[Gradysmanldy]

Both these teams are disasters, right now. I can't wait for the Feb 23rd game against the C's, so I can watch Cleveland pound their faces on NESN and hear the announcers make excuses.

KG, save mode or not, is not going to be half the PF he was last year. It's why they brought in Rasheed, so that the two of them could split time and save the wear on KG while providing solid interior defense with Perkins on the bench. Sheed has only shown flashes of his former self and KG will not ever be the same.

Sad but true.

Is the team still dangerous? Sure. Rondo is a monster at PG, the bench is passable when Shelden, Daniels, and Davis are healthy and playing to level, and Pierce is still a force when he isn't being double teamed.

Am I scared of them? Nah. Wait till the next few games. Going to be fun.

[Cease]

Ultimately, Boston still concerns me the most of any team in the East.

Only team that concerns me in the East, even with a brokedown KG. We don't have a good answer for Rondo and Pierce always picks up his game against the Cavs because he thinks he is at the same level as Bron.

I've got to agree I'm concerned with the C's until we've got 4 wins in a series. I know they are looking old and washed up, but these cats have been/are gamers - Pierce, KG, Allen, Sheed, Rondo. Even a mite like House can get off one quarter per game.

The only way I could see them beating us is if they get nuts from beyond the arc. You know if Allen, House, and Sheed get open and start to stroke, they are only 3-4 game minutes behind at any point vs. a sloppy team. It's a confidence and pride issue with the C's come April/May.

What I'll want the Cavs to do is make them pay for every single missed three with A) Shaq in the lane B) LeBron on the post C) other high percentage shots. And please no "coming of age" efforts out of Perkins vs. Shaq.

[rebelwithoutaclue]

Is the team still dangerous? Sure. Rondo is a monster at PG, the bench is passable when Shelden, Daniels, and Davis are healthy and playing to level, and Pierce is still a force when he isn't being double teamed.

Shelden Williams has never been, and will never be, a viable NBA player. His wife aka Anthony Parker's sister is a better basketball player than him. Daniels can be halfway decent on a shitty team but he's no game changer either.

[Gradysmanldy]

Actually, you're right, I meant to say House. Williams sucks.