Sixers pitching Iggy to Ferry

[e0y2e3]

Per Wojo and will be a hard sale to Ferry as Woj says. Iggy is Lbj junior and would be redundant. Intriguing though. All on Twitter, on phone so someone else can grab quotes.

[peeker643]

Per Wojo and will be a hard sale to Ferry as Woj says. Iggy is Lbj junior and would be redundant. Intriguing though. All on Twitter, on phone so someone else can grab quotes.

WojYahooNBA The Cavs have been listening intently to Sixers pitch of Andre Iguodala for several days, sources say. Unclear what Philly wants back.
21 minutes ago from web

WojYahooNBA The Cavs still prefer PF's such as Antawn Jamison and Troy Murphy, but Ferry always listens and thinks hard. Iggy is a tough sell for Cavs.

WojYahooNBA The Sixers are in a tough spot, cause it's very unlikely they can move Brand contract. To get much cap flexibiity, Iggy probably has to go.
10 minutes ago from web

WojYahooNBA In the end, most league execs still believe Cavs ultimately do a deal for a 'stretch 4-man,' who can shoot -- not another SF like Iggy.

[diminishingskills]

Hey, is that a fork you have there? Mind if I borrow it for a second?

[poking my own eyes out]

Thanks.

[Doc]

I love Iggy. I would love to have him. I'm not sure he fits. I was talking about this Saturday...I prefer him to SJ, and I think Iggy could fit in the 2 here. Probably not the shooter we'd hope for, but plenty of D and another guy who can get to the rim.

Between Iggy and Amare (and Jamison, of course), we have at least 3 big names that should be attainable with picks/Z's expiring/Hickson (or else why would these teams be coming to Cleveland to talk...that's all we have to work with). Iggy would be a nice fall back at the SF if LeBron books at the end of the season. I guess there's the possibility of Iggy in a 3 way, but I'm not sure whom else might want to take on his deal.

[Gradysmanldy]

Iguodala is completely redundant on this team. Would be a SERIOUS waste of any trade chips we have to take him. Pass.

[e0y2e3]

Iguodala is completely redundant on this team. Would be a SERIOUS waste of any trade chips we have to take him. Pass.

This is potentially the biggest overreaction posted on these boards ever. This borders on the "We traded ____ for Jamey Carroll" take from dnosco.

Serious waste of trade ammo? A guy who is guaranteed to average 16 5 5 1 and 1 at the bare minimum here? A guy who is a bona-fide perimeter defending stud? A guy w/ no attitude issues? A guy whose biggest knock is that he is paid like "The Man" and he was made to play 2nd fiddle? A guy who, while not a great shooter, would finally give us a bona-fide 2nd threat to take the ball to the hoop? Iggy is LBJ light, having LBJ and LBJ light is never in the history of the association going to be a bad thing.

Don't get me wrong, Iggy is not my #1 target nor even my #2 (though an argument can be made in favor of Iggy verses a 32 year old Jamo in regards to the long term) and even though I watch him play a bit (fantasy) I cannot definitively say if he could or could not play the 2 next to LBJ. I don't think Ferry came to the a conclusion on that matter yet either, thus the ongoing discussions and attention he is paying. So unless you have definitive proof Iggy cannot play the 2, well you're missing the boat here.

That said, if Ferry decides Iggy can't and moves on, so be it, I won't cry over spilt milk if we bring in Amare, Jamo or maybe Troy (who gets way too little appreciation on these boards) instead.

SERIOUS WASTE OF ASSETS!!!! though, child please.

I get a little bit of a chubby just thinking about the lineups we could run w/ these two together.

[JJN]

LeBron can play PF, and Iggy can play SG. Don't see the problem here. Plus, no more Parker missing easy layups. Makes me giddy. He is the wing defender that Mike Brown has wet dreams about. Anyways, Iggy shoots 33% from deep, and that is without people setting him up for wide open shots like he would get here. Think about a lineup of Delonte, Parker/Moon, Iggy, Bron, and Varejao. Not only would Bill Simmons have an reactionary bowel movement, but it would be the best defense to fast break squad in the league bar none, and would give us the best depth and flexibility in our lineups ever (plus someone who can spell LeBron for extended periods of time).

I don't see Jamo having the effect on keeping LeBron here that Iggy would. Legit Pippin/Robin potential. Now if you would all excuse me, I have some chloroform and a Dan Ferry mask to purchase.

[e0y2e3]

LeBron can play PF, and Iggy can play SG. Don't see the problem here. Plus, no more Parker missing easy layups. Makes me giddy. He is the wing defender that Mike Brown has wet dreams about. Anyways, Iggy shoots 33% from deep, and that is without people setting him up for wide open shots like he would get here. Think about a lineup of Delonte, Parker/Moon, Iggy, Bron, and Varejao. Not only would Bill Simmons have an reactionary bowel movement, but it would be the best defense to fast break squad in the league bar none, and would give us the best depth and flexibility in our lineups ever (plus someone who can spell LeBron for extended periods of time).

I don't see Jamo having the effect on keeping LeBron here that Iggy would. Legit Pippin/Robin potential. Now if you would all excuse me, I have some chloroform and a Dan Ferry mask to purchase.

The Biggest problem w/ all of this is relying on LBJ being willing to log minutes at the four extensively (has he ever commented on this?) and hoping Brown can put all of those tools to use.

Jamo is an addition that is risk free short term and an obvious upgrade. Amare is a huge roll of the dice for one year but has very good long term potential (though I doubt it happens) and Iggy is a major risk but is absolutely a potential Pippen.

[JJN]

Addendum: I wouldn't be opposed to having to take Dalembert in the trade to get Iggy either. He is grabbing over 9 boards a game, is second in blocks per game, and can give you the occasional big game in points (in 25 minutes a game). He might not be a starter on a championship team, but I would consider it, especially because his contract is up after next season (which is important if he reverts to being a bum) but you get Iggy locked in until 2013.\

As far as Bron at the four, just remind him that he isn't the traditional 4 that has to go and post up to score. How many fours can he not blow by or shoot the three over? LeBron is essentially positionless to begin with due to his versatility, why would that change?

[aoxo1]

Don't take this to mean they are equivalent, but everyone always says LeBron needs to find his Pippen.

Well, if I recall Pippen was a lot of things. He could handle, defend, drive, distribute etc. But he was NOT a shooter. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that last point; it's my perception a decade removed bolstered by looking at his career shooting numbers. These things sound a LOT like Iggy's strengths.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with having a second big, strong, fast player who can contribute all over the court on both ends and is a box score stuffer.

Plus that gives us 2 of the Hyperizers.

edit: excuse me for making the Pippen reference when it had already been made, as I didn't read the last couple posts.

[JJN]

Plus that gives us 2 of the Hyperizers.

I didn't even realize this.

[aoxo1]

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910PHI2.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809PHI2.HTM

Iggy gets plenty of time at the 2.

[mrburns]

I'd rather have Jamison or Amare, but if this is option number three, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

With the financial state of the league, the Cavs are in a position to add a really talented player for pennies on the dollar. You can't be sure that opportunity will exist in the future, so I wouldn't shut the door on it just because Iguodala's game is similar to LeBron's. It will be interesting to see if they're looking for anything beyond cap relief.

[OldDawg]

I'd rather have Jamison or Amare, but if this is option number three, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

With the financial state of the league, the Cavs are in a position to add a really talented player for pennies on the dollar. You can't be sure that opportunity will exist in the future, so I wouldn't shut the door on it just because Iguodala's game is similar to LeBron's. It will be interesting to see if they're looking for anything beyond cap relief.

Sacrilege!

[diminishingskills]

Think about a lineup of Delonte, Parker/Moon, Iggy, Bron, and Varejao. Not only would Bill Simmons have an reactionary bowel movement, but it would be the best defense to fast break squad in the league bar none, and would give us the best depth and flexibility in our lineups ever (plus someone who can spell LeBron for extended periods of time).

Okay, I'm thinking about it here ... really thinking about it ...

... yep, the Cavs just went home in the ECF against the Celtics. And if not there, then the Lakers would do the job in the Finals.

That lineup would be KILLED in the paint by the league's elite teams. Basically, you'd be building the EC version of the mid-2000s Suns. You'll win 60+ games in the regular season ... and you'll run the lower half of the league out of the gym ... and then you'll get deep into the playoffs, and won't be able to score baskets when it really counts.

All this Iguodala love makes no sense to me. None. He is a decent player, but not a star. The typical good player on a bad team, who gets confused with being great because there's nobody better than him on his current squad. And his skill set is largely redundant to the Cavs' best player. As an added bonus, you get to overpay for that skill set for the next four seasons.

But I forgot. On this board, if you are:

(a) athletic (extra points for jump-out-of-the-building ESPN highlights),
(b) perceived as young (even if you are 26 years old and have been in the league six years), and
(c) not a Cavalier,

then you are The Shit. (BTW, Simmons has the same blind spots in his love for players -- at least the first two -- so the fact that he would be excited about such a potential trade is not a good thing.) Put a team of five athletic young-to-mid-20-something players on the floor, and fans here would have a collective orgasm. Never mind that none of them could score from within ten feet in a half-court set, or that their outside shooting wouldn't be that great. No, if they can run up and down the court all day, and turn a few rebounds into fast breaks, then championship here we come!

It may sound good, and it may be fun to dream about. But it's a style of ball that has won exactly zero titles. So don't mind me while I say pass.

[e0y2e3]

DS, plugging him in at the two means nothing about dropping our current roster flexibility (meaning Shaq, Powe, etc).

Not sure why you are acting like they are mutually exclusive.

And Iggy is a good player on a bad team, sure, that is why him being paid #1 money is the worst thing about his game.

Do you not agree that having a real starting 2 and Delonte as your sixth/seventh man makes this team noticeably better?

I mean the Pippen comparison from aoxo is pretty spot on. For years now Iggy has been drawing the same comp.

But I guess having two wing guys that can pass and crash the boards is a bad thing? I mean if you were on board w/ S-Jax it is silly to not be on board here.

But I forgot, you only win titles by trading for 34 year olds and trying to out old the Celtics.

Asking for one more player that is an elite athlete and a good basketball player is sacrilege to you though, I forgot.

EDIT: and let's not pretend like the Cavs are going to be under the Cap at any point in the next few years. Overpaying is irrelevant to this team.

[RickNashEquilibrium]

DS, plugging him in at the two means nothing about dropping our current roster flexibility (meaning Shaq, Powe, etc).

Not sure why you are acting like they are mutually exclusive.

And Iggy is a good player on a bad team, sure, that is why him being paid #1 money is the worst thing about his game.

Do you not agree that having a real starting 2 and Delonte as your sixth/seventh man makes this team noticeably better?

I mean the Pippen comparison from aoxo is pretty spot on. For years now Iggy has been drawing the same comp.

But I guess having two wing guys that can pass and crash the boards is a bad thing? I mean if you were on board w/ S-Jax it is silly to not be on board here.

But I forgot, you only win titles by trading for 34 year olds and trying to out old the Celtics.

Asking for one more player that is an elite athlete and a good basketball player is sacrilege to you though, I forgot.

EDIT: and let's not pretend like the Cavs are going to be under the Cap at any point in the next few years. Overpaying is irrelevant to this team.

Not to pile on DS, but comparing the 2000s Suns to what we could hypothetically run out there with Iggy is comparing apples to salsbury steak. The only guy on those Suns teams that ever played a lick of defense was Raja Bell. Not to mention the fact that Brown, despite his gutwrenching shortcomings in offensive creativity and sound decision making, is an expert at being able to plug guys into his defensive system and make it work. Also, if we were facing a team with some size, swap AV with Shaq and keep LeBron on the 4.

[diminishingskills]

DS, plugging him in at the two means nothing about dropping our current roster flexibility (meaning Shaq, Powe, etc).

You sure about that? You really think Philly is going to give up its lone good/marketable player for cap relief?

Not sure why you are acting like they are mutually exclusive ... Do you not agree that having a real starting 2 and Delonte as your sixth/seventh man makes this team noticeably better?

Because to a large degree they are. Iggy has logged some minutes at SG, but he is a SF. Bron has logged some minutes at PF, but he too is a SF. Playing guys out of position in order to cram more raw talent onto the team almost never works.

You know that I am not an AP fan. And yes, I'm on board with upgrading the team whenever possible. I was actually pretty pissed when Philly took Iggy just before the Cavs' pick in 2004. (Would have been even more pissed had I known that five minutes later, they were going to blow that selection on LuJack.) But if you want a shooting guard, then get a fucking shooting guard. Not a slashing SF masquerading as a SG. And don't blow your limited trading chips on a guy who is just not a good fit on your roster.

But I guess having two wing guys that can pass and crash the boards is a bad thing? I mean if you were on board w/ S-Jax it is silly to not be on board here.

I wasn't.

But I forgot, you only win titles by trading for 34 year olds and trying to out old the Celtics. Asking for one more player that is an elite athlete and a good basketball player is sacrilege to you though, I forgot.

Eye, you're a bright guy, and you know your hoops. I'm not gonna take your bait on getting into a pissing match. But you have the blind spots of a bright kid who plays too much fantasy sports, and who confuses a player's fantasy performance with what he really brings in real life. As well as thinking that having multiple players with the same skill set is better than having players who complement each other. (In case you haven't watched the last week, it's been a 38 year old Shaq who has saved the Cavs' bacon. Take away his interior scoring, and the Cavs lose at least two of the last three games, maybe all three.)

I say these things descriptively rather than confrontationally. I know where you're coming from, because I used to have the same blind spots myself, when I was around your age. Your view will mature in time as well, I expect. Not today necessarily, but a few years will pass, and you'll notice that the teams with a good blend of skills -- and yes, a good amount of experience -- are always the ones spraying champagne on each other in June. Always. (It kind of reminds me of an old business saying: when a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with the experience ends up with the money, and the man with the money ends up with the experience.)

Your method wins regular season games. Mine wins rings. I know which approach I prefer.

EDIT: and let's not pretend like the Cavs are going to be under the Cap at any point in the next few years. Overpaying is irrelevant to this team.

From a cap perspective, yes. From a luxury tax perspective, no. If Iggy is overpaid at $12-13 million a season, then what is he at an effective $24-26 million per year? The luxury tax line is much, much more significant than the salary cap.

Gotta get to work now, and probably won't have time to reply the rest of the day, and I'm sure the discussion will have passed by then. So if I don't reply further, don't give it any more significance than that.

[ajunior148]

The biggest concern I'd have is Andre's ability to hit a spot up jumper. I have barely watched this guy play, can he do that consistently?

If he can then I say bring him on. He is an elite defender from what I've read, and will take a HUGE burden off of LBJ on both ends of the floor.

If he can't then I'd worry about teams sagging off of him to clog the lane/paint, which would really hurt us with LBJ and Shaq.

What will it take to get him?

[ajunior148]

Eye, you're a bright guy, and you know your hoops. I'm not gonna take your bait on getting into a pissing match. But you have the blind spots of a bright kid who plays too much fantasy sports, and who confuses a player's fantasy performance with what he really brings in real life. As well as thinking that having multiple players with the same skill set is better than having players who complement each other.

Eye doesn't need anyone to defend him, but I'm not certain that he said this, DS. I believe he mentioned Troy Murphy upthread, who most would agree is a little less talented than Iggy, but probably fits a little better.

I'm not saying I disagree with your opinion, either. I'd like for someone who has seen this guy play 10+ times to be able to chime in on his ability to be #2. FWIW, ESPN has this on his profile page:

Player News (last updated: January 24, 2010)
News: Iguodala has seen his role in the Philly offense reduced significantly since the New Year.
Spin: The addition of Allen Iverson to the team, coupled with Elton Brand's re-emergence, has demanded that the ball be put in the hands of other players more often. As a result, Iguodala is averaging four fewer shot attempts per game in January (10.9) than he did in December (14.9) and more than five fewer than he averaged in November (16.2). He still has elite assist numbers (6.3 per game in January), but at least one reporter (Kate Fagan of the Philadelphia Inquirer) believes his reduced role in the offense has upset Iguodala.

[Gradysmanldy]

Iguodala is completely redundant on this team. Would be a SERIOUS waste of any trade chips we have to take him. Pass.

This is potentially the biggest overreaction posted on these boards ever. This borders on the "We traded ____ for Jamey Carroll" take from dnosco.

Serious waste of trade ammo? A guy who is guaranteed to average 16 5 5 1 and 1 at the bare minimum here? A guy who is a bona-fide perimeter defending stud? A guy w/ no attitude issues? A guy whose biggest knock is that he is paid like "The Man" and he was made to play 2nd fiddle? A guy who, while not a great shooter, would finally give us a bona-fide 2nd threat to take the ball to the hoop? Iggy is LBJ light, having LBJ and LBJ light is never in the history of the association going to be a bad thing.

I'll give you that he is LBJ light. A large part of what makes AI the special player for Philly that he has been is that he HAS the same skillset as LBJ. Large, athletic, passes well, finishes well. And since he wouldn't be handling the ball frequently, at the 2, a lot of those skills go to waste. I don't think he's a guarunteed 16/5/5/1/1 guy here. Points, yes....assists, no. And if you take away his assists, I don't see a large difference in what he provides with Delonte West, who is also a premier perimeter defender, CAN shoot the 3-ball (unlike AI and his .324 career avg) rebounds well, plays in the post, and can run the offense. Also, Delonte is familiar with the Cavs system. He's coming off the bench, but we know he'll be taking the bulk of the minutes in the playoffs.

The difference between the dynasty bulls and this years Cavs is Shaq and Mo. The touches that would go to a "pippen" style second option, on this team, are taken by those two. There are only so many to go around.

Don't get me wrong, Iggy is not my #1 target nor even my #2 (though an argument can be made in favor of Iggy verses a 32 year old Jamo in regards to the long term) and even though I watch him play a bit (fantasy) I cannot definitively say if he could or could not play the 2 next to LBJ. I don't think Ferry came to the a conclusion on that matter yet either, thus the ongoing discussions and attention he is paying. So unless you have definitive proof Iggy cannot play the 2, well you're missing the boat here.

If we were just adding him, sure. I'm sure he would provide a quality dynamic to the squad we have; NOT upgrading the power forward position AND sacrificing our backup center and depth at PF would be suicide.

I'm not under the assumption that bringing in a skill set like AI2 WOULDN'T improve the team; I just think that with that price tag, with the cost of the trade assets it would require, and the fact that the Cavs play a game where LBJ/Shaq dominate the ball and require shooters to punish double teams....I just don't think it's the best play. Maybe a little too strong to say it would be the biggest waste of assets ever, just not a play im sure Cleveland is able to make.

Last question....if he is LBJ lite....is there no other option for keeping him? Why not dump Dalembert? I understand Brand's contract is killing the team and he is immovable.....but jesus.

All these comparisons of him to Pippen are interesting, though....makes me wonder what exactly the Cavs would need from a two guard to consider him the "Pippen"

[rebelwithoutaclue]

Last question....if he is LBJ lite....is there no other option for keeping him? Why not dump Dalembert? I understand Brand's contract is killing the team and he is immovable.....but jesus.

The Sixers have been trying to trade Dalembert since about 15 minutes after he signed the contract. One of the worst contracts in the history of the league rivaled by such headscratchers as the Jerome James, DeSagna Diop, and Marko Jaric deals. So to answer your question, they can't move Dalembert till he becomes expiring or unless he's a throw-in if they give AI2 away just to get rid of Sammy's contract.

[aoxo1]

I'll give you that he is LBJ light. A large part of what makes AI the special player for Philly that he has been is that he HAS the same skillset as LBJ. Large, athletic, passes well, finishes well. And since he wouldn't be handling the ball frequently, at the 2, a lot of those skills go to waste. I don't think he's a guarunteed 16/5/5/1/1 guy here. Points, yes....assists, no. And if you take away his assists, I don't see a large difference in what he provides with Delonte West, who is also a premier perimeter defender, CAN shoot the 3-ball (unlike AI and his .324 career avg) rebounds well, plays in the post, and can run the offense. Also, Delonte is familiar with the Cavs system. He's coming off the bench, but we know he'll be taking the bulk of the minutes in the playoffs.

Right. Except Delonte is 6'3, skinny, a pseudo PG, and a headcase. Iggy is 6'6, built like a mack truck, and not a headcase. Oh, and Iggy is better than Delonte. That too.

The difference between the dynasty bulls and this years Cavs is Shaq and Mo. The touches that would go to a "pippen" style second option, on this team, are taken by those two. There are only so many to go around.

I guess acquiring Jameson or Amare would be a huge mistake, since we couldn't give them any touches because we have a 400 pound center at the end of the line and a borderline all star player (assuming injuries force 2 or 3 other PGs to drop out).

Don't get me wrong, Iggy is not my #1 target nor even my #2 (though an argument can be made in favor of Iggy verses a 32 year old Jamo in regards to the long term) and even though I watch him play a bit (fantasy) I cannot definitively say if he could or could not play the 2 next to LBJ. I don't think Ferry came to the a conclusion on that matter yet either, thus the ongoing discussions and attention he is paying. So unless you have definitive proof Iggy cannot play the 2, well you're missing the boat here.

If we were just adding him, sure. I'm sure he would provide a quality dynamic to the squad we have; NOT upgrading the power forward position AND sacrificing our backup center and depth at PF would be suicide.

Remains to be seen what we would have to give up.

I'm not under the assumption that bringing in a skill set like AI2 WOULDN'T improve the team; I just think that with that price tag, with the cost of the trade assets it would require, and the fact that the Cavs play a game where LBJ/Shaq dominate the ball and require shooters to punish double teams....I just don't think it's the best play. Maybe a little too strong to say it would be the biggest waste of assets ever, just not a play im sure Cleveland is able to make.

Again, cannot understand this line of argument. I guess we can't acquire anything besides a spot up shooter?

I guess we need to ignore the defensive half of the game?

Last question....if he is LBJ lite....is there no other option for keeping him? Why not dump Dalembert? I understand Brand's contract is killing the team and he is immovable.....but jesus.

Brand and Dalembert are both unmovable by themselves, and Brand probably altogether.

The Sixers are a mess, they need to start getting out from some of these contracts. Iggy is one they can get out from under, the others they likely can't.

[Gradysmanldy]

Thanks for the clarification on Dalemberts contract. I was aware that Brand was an albatross, didn't know he was too.

Just to make the salaries work, you HAVE to give up Z in this deal. Could likely orchestrate a buyout, but its clear he would be involved in the trade just for the numbers issue. And that's assuming that it's just a salary dump and Philly doesn't want young talent in return.

I'm not arguing that Iggy is better than Delonte. He's just not 12M dollars better, when you have a mouthbreather with stone hands starting at PF. I don't want to ignore the defensive half of the game; just prefer the Cavs address the most glaring weakness instead of accentuating that weakness to add another guard/forward. (Which we're already overloaded with)

[e0y2e3]

We are overloaded at guard?

Damn! Where I have been?

Parker is not good and can only score from one of two spots on the floor (not to mention that his career has started declining and will only increase at said rate). Delonte is a combo guard best suited to play off the bench at both guard spots and could go postal at any time. Boobie is nothing more than a specialist and Mo is Mo.

We are far from overloaded. We have bodies, sure. But bodies mean little.

[Gradysmanldy]

Parker is average, across the board. Maybe average+ on defense. Boobie "specialized" his way to 18 points last night on 50% shooting. Moon is back. Mo is above average and fits the offense. Hot wad is getting 15-18 mins a night. Despite how you evaluate them, there's a glut of bodies that are getting paid and have gotten this team to where it is right now.

You're missing my point. Guard is not the problem on this team. Until/unless Powe gets active and Delonte actually GOES postal, the biggest need on the team is a PF, not a 14M$ per SF that sometimes plays SG.

I'm done beating this horse. If Ferry traded for AI, i'd be ecstatic that the Cavs brought in a marquee player and hope he turns out to be the next Pippen, and hope that we didn't lose too much flexibility and front court depth in the process. My personal preference is that he grab one of the (hopefully) available PF's and works it from there.

[e0y2e3]

Parker is average, across the board. Maybe average+ on defense. Boobie "specialized" his way to 18 points last night on 50% shooting. Moon is back. Mo is above average and fits the offense. Hot wad is getting 15-18 mins a night. Despite how you evaluate them, there's a glut of bodies that are getting paid and have gotten this team to where it is right now.

You're missing my point. Guard is not the problem on this team. Until/unless Powe gets active and Delonte actually GOES postal, the biggest need on the team is a PF, not a 14M$ per SF that sometimes plays SG.

I'm done beating this horse. If Ferry traded for AI, i'd be ecstatic that the Cavs brought in a marquee player and hope he turns out to be the next Pippen, and hope that we didn't lose too much flexibility and front court depth in the process. My personal preference is that he grab one of the (hopefully) available PF's and works it from there.

No you are missing the point.

Parker is not average. He is on the decline and already below average. He's a slow footed SQ that is average to slightly better than that on D and is slipping in the athleticism department, cannot get to the rim, has a bad mid-range jumper, etc. Not going to be long until he can only guard big 2's and 3's. Jawad and Moon can play the 2 sometimes but not often, the 3 and the 4. Factually Jawad should start eating into Hickson's minutes at the 4 and Powe is coming back. You have two + guards on this team and right now you have 2+ players in the front court. Plus you have LBJ that has started logging more minutes at the four this year, Powe coming on, Andy, etc.

4 is a slightly bigger need, no doubt, but trotting the 2 around like everything is fine and dandy is foolish.

And you keep missing the point that our offense would be scary w/ a second player that is a good enough shooter he has to be guarded, can get to the rim (lord knows we lack this) and is an exceptional passer.

I'd bet you've watched less than 2 Iggy games in the last 2 years. If Ferry decides he can play the 2 I trust that. If not I can live w/ it. That is what the problem here is. Not our exceptional play the 2 being noticeably better than our play the 4.

[e0y2e3]

DS, plugging him in at the two means nothing about dropping our current roster flexibility (meaning Shaq, Powe, etc).

You sure about that? You really think Philly is going to give up its lone good/marketable player for cap relief?

See the discussion below. Philly has paid so much money to Sam, Brand and Iggy they have put themselves in the same roster quagmire the Cavs did in the late 90's. The only player they really can move right now is the above average one. Not to mention that their attendance may be negative this year. Philly and ATL are just bad bad fanbases right now.

Not sure why you are acting like they are mutually exclusive ... Do you not agree that having a real starting 2 and Delonte as your sixth/seventh man makes this team noticeably better?

Because to a large degree they are. Iggy has logged some minutes at SG, but he is a SF. Bron has logged some minutes at PF, but he too is a SF. Playing guys out of position in order to cram more raw talent onto the team almost never works.

You know that I am not an AP fan. And yes, I'm on board with upgrading the team whenever possible. I was actually pretty pissed when Philly took Iggy just before the Cavs' pick in 2004. (Would have been even more pissed had I known that five minutes later, they were going to blow that selection on LuJack.) But if you want a shooting guard, then get a fucking shooting guard. Not a slashing SF masquerading as a SG. And don't blow your limited trading chips on a guy who is just not a good fit on your roster.

Ferry has thus far looked into Ron Ron, Ariza and S-Jax. All are traditional threes that can play the 2 (Ron Ron is probably a stretch at this point). Also I recall reading over the years that MB loves BIG guards. Something tells me that this is why Ferry is going to figure out if Iggy fits said Big guard mold or not. I cannot be sure if he will it not, nor can you nor gradywhatever. Gotta trust in the Bald One in this instance, IMO.

But I forgot, you only win titles by trading for 34 year olds and trying to out old the Celtics. Asking for one more player that is an elite athlete and a good basketball player is sacrilege to you though, I forgot.

Eye, you're a bright guy, and you know your hoops. I'm not gonna take your bait on getting into a pissing match. But you have the blind spots of a bright kid who plays too much fantasy sports, and who confuses a player's fantasy performance with what he really brings in real life. As well as thinking that having multiple players with the same skill set is better than having players who complement each other. (In case you haven't watched the last week, it's been a 38 year old Shaq who has saved the Cavs' bacon. Take away his interior scoring, and the Cavs lose at least two of the last three games, maybe all three.)

I say these things descriptively rather than confrontationally. I know where you're coming from, because I used to have the same blind spots myself, when I was around your age. Your view will mature in time as well, I expect. Not today necessarily, but a few years will pass, and you'll notice that the teams with a good blend of skills -- and yes, a good amount of experience -- are always the ones spraying champagne on each other in June. Always. (It kind of reminds me of an old business saying: when a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with the experience ends up with the money, and the man with the money ends up with the experience.)

Your method wins regular season games. Mine wins rings. I know which approach I prefer.

Point is, 2 guard is just a wee bit better off than the 4 right now. Iggy would open things up and finally give us the player we all thought Laura could hopefully be. That said, I agree that there are problems w/ bringing him in, mainly our front court right now features two ancient guys who are not going to be around much longer.

Although I don't see how bringing in a 34 year old whose game could drop off the face of the earth at any time now is much safer than bringing in a young well rounded two who is playing a little bit out of his traditional position. Nor do I see how bringing in a PF this year whose entire game centers around dunking is going to be a great addition w/ Shaq when they already failed together. Not to mention the reports out of Phoenix (for like the 8th time) are the Amare is causing locker room problems and that is one of the core reasons he may hit the market>

Each of these players have built in risks and the cost/benefit analysis is going to be very complicated. I mean, if we don't bring in a four we have to resign Shaq next year to play center because Andy is going to have to stay at the four, etc...

The biggest issue at hand to me is prepping for the long term, because our roster is a joke going forward toward the future. We have to do this while ensuring that we have a better shot at the title this year than we had before the deadline. I think Iggy would hit on both of those marks. Jamo or Amare or even Murphy may fit in better and that is up to Ferry, but I could certainly live w/ any of the four.

You've developed a bit of a stereotype about me because I do like young and exciting players in regards to chemistry and building a roster. I have a tighter grasp on this than you, IMO. Mainly due to age of course..

You just want the ring.

I want the ring and a real roster after this year. And this biannual trading of an expiring contract and hoping things keep on meshing is not the proper path to that. Jamo, if we get him, is going to quickly become just another expiring we are looking to deal, BTW.

EDIT: and let's not pretend like the Cavs are going to be under the Cap at any point in the next few years. Overpaying is irrelevant to this team.

From a cap perspective, yes. From a luxury tax perspective, no. If Iggy is overpaid at $12-13 million a season, then what is he at an effective $24-26 million per year? The luxury tax line is much, much more significant than the salary cap.

To Gilberts pocket book.

And if Iggy gels w/ LBJ and LBJ stays that is more than worth it. This franchise loses at least 50% of its value the day LBJ darts. Cost benefit of keeping LBJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> luxury tax.

[pup]

We are overloaded at guard?

If the Browns are overloaded at linebacker, I got not problem believing the Cavs are overloaded at guard.

[e0y2e3]

We are overloaded at guard?

If the Browns are overloaded at linebacker, I got not problem believing the Cavs are overloaded at guard.

FEAR!!!

[Gradysmanldy]

Although I don't see how bringing in a 34 year old whose game could drop off the face of the earth at any time now is much safer than bringing in a young well rounded two who is playing a little bit out of his traditional position. Nor do I see how bringing in a PF this year whose entire game centers around dunking is going to be a great addition w/ Shaq when they already failed together. Not to mention the reports out of Phoenix (for like the 8th time) are the Amare is causing locker room problems and that is one of the core reasons he may hit the market.

I know this guy that played for the Cavs once whose whole game centers around dunking......oh wait, he's still there. Starting at PF.

As posted in the Amare thread, he has a nicely developed midrange jumper....and he's not afraid to take it when he's left wide open.

All this talk has made me terrified about what happens with the front court of this team if we add Igoudala's salary after this year when our Salary figure is about 61M......without only AV/Hickson. Z and Shaq off the books, and no money to sign a quality big man. (provided Lebron re-signs and everyone else stays)

[rebelwithoutaclue]

All this talk has made me terrified about what happens with the front court of this team if we add Igoudala's salary after this year when our Salary figure is about 61M......without only AV/Hickson. Z and Shaq off the books, and no money to sign a quality big man. (provided Lebron re-signs and everyone else stays)

Even though the Cavs are over the cap, they can still sign guys using the Mid-Level Exemption every year. Won't get you a star, but can get you a good role player.... or DeSagna Diop for 5 years and $30 million.

[Gradysmanldy]

That would seemingly make us VERY Bulls-like. No front court, point guards who shoot the three well and space the floor, a defense/rebound specialist at PF, and our best players at SG/SF.

[e0y2e3]

FWIW: I think the Sixers would be more interested in dumping Dalembert than taking back Hickson. In Speights and Young they already have young developing bigs. And I have no problem as Dalembert playing one head on a two headed center in the future here (his inconsistencies demand another capable player at the position though).

[Zé Apelido]

adjusted plus / minus (for whatever its worth) has him very highly rated overall b/c of an extremely high defensive rating

[DrPoove]

FWIW

Per Windy today on trading for Iggy:

Doesn't make sense because:
He's a SF, not an SG, because he's not a great shooter.
He at his best when, and needs to, dominate the ball.
He's got 4 years left on his deal and the Cavs don't like that lack of flexibility.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/01/brian_windhorst_talks_cavalier_16.html

[e0y2e3]

FWIW

Per Windy today on trading for Iggy:

Doesn't make sense because:
He's a SF, not an SG, because he's not a great shooter.
He at his best when, and needs to, dominate the ball.
He's got 4 years left on his deal and the Cavs don't like that lack of flexibility.

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/01/brian_windhorst_talks_cavalier_16.html

As I said, I'm not sure he can play the 2. Completely up to Ferry.

My only issue centers around calling acquiring him a "SERIOUS WASTE OF OUR ASSETS"

[e0y2e3]

RicBucher: League source says take Cle out of Iguodala Sweepstakes. Dallas, Portland, Phoenix can all make infinitely better offers.

[SDM]

Maybe a CLE-PHX-PHI 3-way?

[SDM]

we still want him

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf ... p_yet.html

[e0y2e3]

we still want him

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf ... p_yet.html

Wait? You mean we shouldn't just pass on Iggy because he isn't a stretch four and that Ferry is actually seriously looking into this!

That bastard, how dare he contemplate SERIOUSLY WASTING OUR ASSETS like that!

[Orenthal]

Agree with Windy there will be an adjustment period. Iggy is not a player that will just sit on the three point line watching LeBron. He has the game we thought we were getting with Laura. Will the Cavaliers adjust to fit his slashing style, or does his game become a Lite version as he is forced to adjust more to our style.

No doubt the team and individual defense would be off the charts. By far the most interesting of the trade rumors.

[papacass]

Agree with Windy there will be an adjustment period. Iggy is not a player that will just sit on the three point line watching LeBron. He has the game we thought we were getting with Laura. Will the Cavaliers adjust to fit his slashing style, or does his game become a Lite version as he is forced to adjust more to our style.

The latter. LeIso is so thoroughly ingrained into LeBron at this point, I'm pretty well convinced that the only type of player that could kill it is a veteran and/or all-star caliber PG. Jason Kidd could probably take the ball and dictate the offense to LeBron. CP3 could probably do it. But Andre Iguodala is not going to cause LBJ to adjust his approach to offense. And the coaching staff, for all their begging, pleading and cajoling, won't be able to either.

[Orenthal]

Which is the only reason why, the stretch four is the perfect fit for the roster. The idea of Iggy is intriguing, and I wouldn't complain if we were able to land him, but the Murphy/Jamo type player is plug and play.

In terms of cost/benefit I think Murphy is looking like the best deal available right now.

[e0y2e3]

Agree with Windy there will be an adjustment period. Iggy is not a player that will just sit on the three point line watching LeBron. He has the game we thought we were getting with Laura. Will the Cavaliers adjust to fit his slashing style, or does his game become a Lite version as he is forced to adjust more to our style.

The latter. LeIso is so thoroughly ingrained into LeBron at this point, I'm pretty well convinced that the only type of player that could kill it is a veteran and/or all-star caliber PG. Jason Kidd could probably take the ball and dictate the offense to LeBron. CP3 could probably do it. But Andre Iguodala is not going to cause LBJ to adjust his approach to offense. And the coaching staff, for all their begging, pleading and cajoling, won't be able to either.

Damn, someone finally buys into my theory!

And yeah, there is a very good chance LBJ would hurt Iggy's game the same way he has hurt Mo's.

[peeker643]

Legitimately I think the options are Murphy or Jamison.

Bottom line is I think Murphy is the right fit for a lot reasons.

He scores 7 less a game but aside from that he shoots a better % from all over the floor, rebounds more and dishes out more assists than Jamison. Not just for this year: for his career.

He's 5 years younger anfd has done a pretty solid job despite the shit teams he's played on.

The salaries fit with Z, you give up only 30 days your back-up center and Bird and Z are down with it from what I've been told.

Throw in the greater flexibility you have with Murphy's contract and look at a floor with James, Shaq, Mo, Murphy and whomever else you put out there and I like the potential.

[Frank Duffy]

Well Peeks, that Bird/Z news is really useful info. I won't ask your source, but I assume coming from you that it's solid. And yeah, if Murphy's numbers really would translate to a good team, he does seem the better fit.

And Eye, good to see you didn't sprain a thumb screeding me last night.

[peeker643]

Well Peeks, that Bird/Z news is really useful info. I won't ask your source, but I assume coming from you that it's solid. And yeah, if Murphy's numbers really would translate to a good team, he does seem the better fit.

And Eye, good to see you didn't sprain a thumb screeding me last night.

We'll see Frank. I trust the guy who gave me the info but it still comes down to them looking at and making the best deal they can. It's just the more I look at it the more I see them going that route. From a value perspective it makes sense anyway.

Hopefully it works out. Not saying the Pacers wouldn't turn up the heat and ask for a young talent and a multi-player scenario down the road, but it looks like at least the Cavs have set the table with Z and with Bird in an informal manner.

[papacass]

Legitimately I think the options are Murphy or Jamison.

Bottom line is I think Murphy is the right fit for a lot reasons.

He scores 7 less a game but aside from that he shoots a better % from all over the floor, rebounds more and dishes out more assists than Jamison. Not just for this year: for his career.

He's 5 years younger anfd has done a pretty solid job despite the shit teams he's played on.

Murphy is also 6'-11". Adding him would essentially be like adding another 7-footer to the roster. And he does possess the ability to play inside a bit. The fact that he does average nearly 10 RPG means that he's not just going to camp out on the perimeter and completely avoid contact, at least at the defensive end.

Jamison is certainly a more skilled player than Murphy, but given how matchup-heavy playoff basketball is, I'm not going to turn my nose up at a 240-pound 7-footer who can at least make himself tall and challenge shots in the lane. Against teams like the Celtics and Lakers, who rely heavily on creating mismatches by throwing multipe 7-footers out there, a playoff rotation of Shaq (7'-1"), Murphy (6'-11"), Andy (6'-10") and Z (7'-3") could do wonders for diluting those mismatches and throwing the opposition for a loop.

I think that's especially true in the case of the Lakers. If they can't mystify the other team with their 7-foot smorgasbord of Gasol, Bynum and Odom, they really don't have a lot of other answers -- at least beyond Kobe going off for 50 points.

[peeker643]

Murphy is also 6'-11". Adding him would essentially be like adding another 7-footer to the roster. And he does possess the ability to play inside a bit. The fact that he does average nearly 10 RPG means that he's not just going to camp out on the perimeter and completely avoid contact, at least at the defensive end.

Jamison is certainly a more skilled player than Murphy, but given how matchup-heavy playoff basketball is, I'm not going to turn my nose up at a 240-pound 7-footer who can at least make himself tall and challenge shots in the lane. Against teams like the Celtics and Lakers, who rely heavily on creating mismatches by throwing multipe 7-footers out there, a playoff rotation of Shaq (7'-1"), Murphy (6'-11"), Andy (6'-10") and Z (7'-3") could do wonders for diluting those mismatches and throwing the opposition for a loop.

I think that's especially true in the case of the Lakers. If they can't mystify the other team with their 7-foot smorgasbord of Gasol, Bynum and Odom, they really don't have a lot of other answers -- at least beyond Kobe going off for 50 points.

http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Troy%20Murphy

Shoots just over 10 shots a game. Almost 40% or so inside 15 feet. Actually a more efficient scorer/shooter from deep but still, he is not immune from taking the ball to the basket as some people may believe.