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Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

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Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby swerb » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:26 am

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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Toxicadam » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:49 am

Just like the Shaq trade last year, this deal won't get done because of our reluctance to trade Hickson.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:15 am

Toxicadam wrote:Just like the Shaq trade last year, this deal won't get done because of our reluctance to trade Hickson.



Hickson has lost his luster with an inconsistant year. If the price of a Jamison or Stoudemire is Hickson and Ilgauskus, Cleveland would be crazy not to take it.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:47 am

If this can get done and I'm not sure it will, then Brown should be fired if we fail to take that title to Cleveland
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby StewieG » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:06 am

Unless Phoenix decides that JJ and the money they'd save is worth it - and I don't think they will - we have no shot at Amare. Amare's gonna be a free agent anyways, so the expiring contract isn't that big of a deal to them.

I just don't see this being done. I still think our best option is Jamison.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:31 am

StewieG wrote:I still think our best option is Jamison.

concur
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby scott » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:24 pm

Someone other than the Cavs will be able to offer a better deal, but TMLP might be the only one with the balls to trade for him without a contract extension in place. Long shot but I guess it has a chance.

Is Amare a max contract guy? That is what he will expect. I don't think he is worth it.
Last edited by scott on Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Ea$t $ide » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:28 pm

He and Shaq didn't mesh well last year....I agree with the posters who want Jamison instead. More of a threat from outside, can play his game away from Oneal which will not clog up the middle of the offense.


Love Amare though. He's an awesome player IMO....
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:07 pm

Amare is, hands down, a better long term option than Jamo.

Jamo is, hands down, a better 1 year player as long as Shaq is your starting center.

Getting LBJ a guy he considers a long term running mate >>> than getting a guy who is ideal to play next to Shaq.

Big Picture and stuff.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby mrburns » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:15 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Hickson has lost his luster with an inconsistant year. If the price of a Jamison or Stoudemire is Hickson and Ilgauskus, Cleveland would be crazy not to take it.


Gotta disagree. He's playing 20 minutes a game on the best team in the East, shooting 55%, and he should be a junior in college. Not saying he's the second coming, but there's definitely progress there.

Jamison is a better fit for making a run this year, no doubt.

But Stoudemire's intriguing because he fits what this team should've been in the first place - fast and athletic. Assuming Shaq departs next year, he could be a nice piece. Any team with LeBron should be itching to fast break whenever possible. You'd have to be at least a little wary of the money you'd have to pay him given his injury history, but there are far worse moves you could make, especially considering that the Cavs in all likelihood won't have the cap room for a max contract like Bosh.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby SDM » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:19 pm

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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:22 pm

Mr. Burns wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Hickson has lost his luster with an inconsistant year. If the price of a Jamison or Stoudemire is Hickson and Ilgauskus, Cleveland would be crazy not to take it.


Gotta disagree. He's playing 20 minutes a game on the best team in the East, shooting 55%, and he should be a junior in college. Not saying he's the second coming, but there's definitely progress there.


Yeah, that awesome progress is called "Okay, LBJ is going to get me wide open, hopefully I am close enough to dunk it because that is my entire game."

Guy can jump and is quick. Has shown NOTHING more.

I could put a Pet Rock at PF for that Cavs that would demonstrate a deeper natural inclination to understand the game.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby mrburns » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:37 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
Mr. Burns wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Hickson has lost his luster with an inconsistant year. If the price of a Jamison or Stoudemire is Hickson and Ilgauskus, Cleveland would be crazy not to take it.


Gotta disagree. He's playing 20 minutes a game on the best team in the East, shooting 55%, and he should be a junior in college. Not saying he's the second coming, but there's definitely progress there.


Yeah, that awesome progress is called "Okay, LBJ is going to get me wide open, hopefully I am close enough to dunk it because that is my entire game."

Guy can jump and is quick. Has shown NOTHING more.

I could put a Pet Rock at PF for that Cavs that would demonstrate a deeper natural inclination to understand the game.


You're right. Hickson has no value to the Cavs or any other club.

Thanks for setting me straight. Carry on.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:44 pm

Hickson has value to a club that is rebuilding where he can play the entire game and they can deal w/ his general retardedness.

Same way Drew Gooden has had value for years.

Drew Gooden and JJ Hickson should never stand in the way of putting a deal down for a real player.

Thanks for completely ignoring my point and going all Broadway w/ your response though.

Do you have any counter to the fact that JJ Hickson is a basketball imbecile that scores 95% of his points because LBJ gets him 30 dunk chances a game?

Have you seen him box anyone out yet?

Have you seen him try to rotate on D?
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby RickNashEquilibrium » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:46 pm

Mr. Burns wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Hickson has lost his luster with an inconsistant year. If the price of a Jamison or Stoudemire is Hickson and Ilgauskus, Cleveland would be crazy not to take it.


Gotta disagree. He's playing 20 minutes a game on the best team in the East, shooting 55%, and he should be a junior in college. Not saying he's the second coming, but there's definitely progress there.

Jamison is a better fit for making a run this year, no doubt.

But Stoudemire's intriguing because he fits what this team should've been in the first place - fast and athletic. Assuming Shaq departs next year, he could be a nice piece. Any team with LeBron should be itching to fast break whenever possible. You'd have to be at least a little wary of the money you'd have to pay him given his injury history, but there are far worse moves you could make, especially considering that the Cavs in all likelihood won't have the cap room for a max contract like Bosh.


Specifically regarding Hickson, isn't this an issue that hasn't put us over the top in years past, including the reluctance to get Shaq last year? Why on Earth should TMLP consider saving for the future? This teams M.O. should be WIN NOW. If there is an opportunity to get a piece like Amare or Jamison, for christ fucking sake you have to take it. I don't see how anyone can view this any other way. 1 championship almost guaranteed with 1 of these 2 guys >>>>>>>>>> not sacrificing anyone on the current roster because they might develop in the future. Lebron isn't going to be LeBron forever and even a skeptic like me can admit there are a number of teams in the league narrowing the talent gap from top to bottom. Z isn't untouchable. A young project like Hickson isn't untouchable. No way, no how, especially if those pieces can be flipped for a player who almost guarantees the Cavs a path through the finals.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby mrburns » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:00 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Hickson has value to a club that is rebuilding where he can play the entire game and they can deal w/ his general retardedness.

Same way Drew Gooden has had value for years.

Drew Gooden and JJ Hickson should never stand in the way of putting a deal down for a real player.

Thanks for completely ignoring my point and going all Broadway w/ your response though.

Do you have any counter to the fact that JJ Hickson is a basketball imbecile that scores 95% of his points because LBJ gets him 30 dunk chances a game?

Have you seen him box anyone out yet?

Have you seen him try to rotate on D?


All valid points. Next time, just say that.

We've seen Roker coach guys up who were supposedly lousy to play better team defense (read: Williams, Maurice), and to say that Hickson sucks and can do nothing but dunk just isn't true. His jumper's improving. He has an opportunity to develop with very little pressure kind of like Kendrick Perkins has with KG playing next to him.

I don't entirely buy the Gooden argument because Drew was a few years older when he came to Clevleand, and he kind of was who he was at that point.

You have to give NBA bigs time to grow and develop because they rarely enter the league as finished products. Hickson is young, athletic, and cost-controlled. If you can use him to get Jamison, then by all means do it yesterday.

There are other things to consider in a Stoudemire trade like signability and team fit, so you probably think about that one a little longer. But JJ is improving and has value, which is why he keeps coming up in these trades.

Not trying to start some kind of personal beef, just pointing out that this isn't black and white. There's at least a little grey, at least if we're talking Amare.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:03 pm

Next time just say that?

The entire point of my first post is that he is a basketball retard.

You countered w/ garble.

That's on you for overreacting. I openly admitted guy can jump and is quick.

And no, some players understand the game and can fit w/ in an offense and defense from day one. Hickson has a very very low IQ for the game at hand. Maybe the stars will align and he'll figure it out, but odds are he ends up Drew Gooden, w/ a worse jumper but a better finisher.

And Perk has always been a very good defender and rebounder that at least understood how to box out.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:05 pm

If they could somehow get him and Mike Brown got out of their way on offense, the team would look something like this,
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:05 pm

Amare is one of the top five finishers at the rim in the entire game. Even with some of the serious injuries he's had to his knee and eye, he still has an explosive first step to the basket. He doesn't possess a true post game, but he has quicks around the hoop. He can get his shot off in a variety of ways.

Amare cutting back door, taking a feed from LBJ and throwing it down? Yes, please. If Steve Nash can develop a PB&J relationship with Amare, imagine what could happen if Amare were teamed with a 6'-8", 265-pound elite passer who also happens to be a freight train and great finisher in his own right.

As for Amare's documented defensive deficiencies? Screw that. That's why you have a versatile roster. Need some more defensive help? Put Shaq in. Put Andy in. Put Powe in when he comes back. You would trade for Amare to give this team a much-needed offensive shot in the arm, particularly close to the basket, where you could turn games against the Lakers, C's and Magic into a war of attrition.

I don't think Hix is a piece of crap. I think he's ill-suited for his current role, but that's another story. But there is no way on eight planets or Pluto that I'd hesitate to give up Hix for Amare. If I'm Ferry, I'd make the Z-Hix offer and if Steve Kerr accepts, I'd be doing the "Thriller" zombie dance on my desk before the word "Yes" was completely out of Kerr's mouth.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:06 pm

There are other things to consider in a Stoudemire trade like signability and team fit, so you probably think about that one a little longer. But JJ is improving and has value, which is why he keeps coming up in these trades.



No one is saying that JJ doesn't have value. He does. What we're saying is that last year, he was more of a mystery. A supreme athlete that a GM can project (their favorite pasttime) as a monster down the line. This year... he's the exact same player he was last year. Almost zero improvement, and for being so young, it's a big red flag. I can't remember the last time I saw him make a jumper and his defense leaves a lot to be desired, both 1-on-1 and rotation. He still drops 2 passes for automatic layups a game and he's a turnover machine. But as long as he can jump out of the gym and throw down hellacious dunks, GM's will still be popping boners.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby pup » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:08 pm

Papa Cass wrote:Amare is one of the top five finishers at the rim in the entire game. Even with some of the serious injuries he's had to his knee and eye, he still has an explosive first step to the basket. He doesn't possess a true post game, but he has quicks around the hoop. He can get his shot off in a variety of ways.

Amare cutting back door, taking a feed from LBJ and throwing it down? Yes, please. If Steve Nash can develop a PB&J relationship with Amare, imagine what could happen if Amare were teamed with a 6'-8", 265-pound elite passer who also happens to be a freight train and great finisher in his own right.

As for Amare's documented defensive deficiencies? Screw that. That's why you have a versatile roster. Need some more defensive help? Put Shaq in. Put Andy in. Put Powe in when he comes back. You would trade for Amare to give this team a much-needed offensive shot in the arm, particularly close to the basket, where you could turn games against the Lakers, C's and Magic into a war of attrition.

I don't think Hix is a piece of crap. I think he's ill-suited for his current role, but that's another story. But there is no way on eight planets or Pluto that I'd hesitate to give up Hix for Amare. If I'm Ferry, I'd make the Z-Hix offer and if Steve Kerr accepts, I'd be doing the "Thriller" zombie dance on my desk before the word "Yes" was completely out of Kerr's mouth.


Biggest piece of this puzzle, IMO. That is the reason, after being Anti-Amare at last year's deadline, I would make this move for sure.

Last year, he would have had to defend, because a large portion of the time he would be on the floor with Z. Now, you can always team him with a defender, including using him at center and playing LBJ or Moon at the 4.

How "athletic" is this:

Mo, West, LBJ, Moon, Amare
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:12 pm

Pup wrote:
Papa Cass wrote:Amare is one of the top five finishers at the rim in the entire game. Even with some of the serious injuries he's had to his knee and eye, he still has an explosive first step to the basket. He doesn't possess a true post game, but he has quicks around the hoop. He can get his shot off in a variety of ways.

Amare cutting back door, taking a feed from LBJ and throwing it down? Yes, please. If Steve Nash can develop a PB&J relationship with Amare, imagine what could happen if Amare were teamed with a 6'-8", 265-pound elite passer who also happens to be a freight train and great finisher in his own right.

As for Amare's documented defensive deficiencies? Screw that. That's why you have a versatile roster. Need some more defensive help? Put Shaq in. Put Andy in. Put Powe in when he comes back. You would trade for Amare to give this team a much-needed offensive shot in the arm, particularly close to the basket, where you could turn games against the Lakers, C's and Magic into a war of attrition.

I don't think Hix is a piece of crap. I think he's ill-suited for his current role, but that's another story. But there is no way on eight planets or Pluto that I'd hesitate to give up Hix for Amare. If I'm Ferry, I'd make the Z-Hix offer and if Steve Kerr accepts, I'd be doing the "Thriller" zombie dance on my desk before the word "Yes" was completely out of Kerr's mouth.


Biggest piece of this puzzle, IMO. That is the reason, after being Anti-Amare at last year's deadline, I would make this move for sure.

Last year, he would have had to defend, because a large portion of the time he would be on the floor with Z. Now, you can always team him with a defender, including using him at center and playing LBJ or Moon at the 4.

How "athletic" is this:

Mo, West, LBJ, Moon, Amare

Right. Because LBJ was too small to play 4 last year, Andy wasn't on the roster, Jamario Moon isn't a string bean who gets pushed around by bigger 3s, and Shaq is a 'defender'. If anything, last year this should have been your take as everyone expected Ben to recover in time for the playoffs.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:14 pm

He gets an addition 4% of his easy dunks on looks from Shaq. This doesn't count the 10% of the time he fumbles the ball away, or the fact his swinging arms and general lack of coordination piss me off all game.

He is young and there may be potential, but any deal that includes him, will include much more...
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby pup » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:18 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
Pup wrote:
Papa Cass wrote:Amare is one of the top five finishers at the rim in the entire game. Even with some of the serious injuries he's had to his knee and eye, he still has an explosive first step to the basket. He doesn't possess a true post game, but he has quicks around the hoop. He can get his shot off in a variety of ways.

Amare cutting back door, taking a feed from LBJ and throwing it down? Yes, please. If Steve Nash can develop a PB&J relationship with Amare, imagine what could happen if Amare were teamed with a 6'-8", 265-pound elite passer who also happens to be a freight train and great finisher in his own right.

As for Amare's documented defensive deficiencies? Screw that. That's why you have a versatile roster. Need some more defensive help? Put Shaq in. Put Andy in. Put Powe in when he comes back. You would trade for Amare to give this team a much-needed offensive shot in the arm, particularly close to the basket, where you could turn games against the Lakers, C's and Magic into a war of attrition.

I don't think Hix is a piece of crap. I think he's ill-suited for his current role, but that's another story. But there is no way on eight planets or Pluto that I'd hesitate to give up Hix for Amare. If I'm Ferry, I'd make the Z-Hix offer and if Steve Kerr accepts, I'd be doing the "Thriller" zombie dance on my desk before the word "Yes" was completely out of Kerr's mouth.


Biggest piece of this puzzle, IMO. That is the reason, after being Anti-Amare at last year's deadline, I would make this move for sure.

Last year, he would have had to defend, because a large portion of the time he would be on the floor with Z. Now, you can always team him with a defender, including using him at center and playing LBJ or Moon at the 4.

How "athletic" is this:

Mo, West, LBJ, Moon, Amare

Right. Because LBJ was too small to play 4 last year, Andy wasn't on the roster, Jamario Moon isn't a string bean who gets pushed around by bigger 3s, and Shaq is a 'defender'. If anything, last year this should have been your take as everyone expected Ben to recover in time for the playoffs.


Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:20 pm

Pup wrote:Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.

Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.

edit: the problem with Z and Amare playing together is Z is too slow on P&R's and Amare is lacking in either a clue or interest. Not sure how Shaq changes that equation.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby neoleo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:22 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
Pup wrote:Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.

Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.


Not my argument, but come on man. If they were going to play LBJ at the 4, wouldn't they have done it against Orlando??? LBJ wasn't a 4 last year, period.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:24 pm

NEOLeo wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:
Pup wrote:Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.

Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.


Not my argument, but come on man. If they were going to play LBJ at the 4, wouldn't they have done it against Orlando??? LBJ wasn't a 4 last year, period.



Just because Mike Brown wasn't as smart as most of the people here who said to put Lebron on either Rashard/Turkoglu, doesn't mean he couldn't have handled it.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:24 pm

NEOLeo wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:
Pup wrote:Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.

Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.


Not my argument, but come on man. If they were going to play LBJ at the 4, wouldn't they have done it against Orlando??? LBJ wasn't a 4 last year, period.

You'll have to ask Mike Brown that question, but it's become quite clear that he nearly was fired for this, amongst other things.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby mrburns » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:26 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
Pup wrote:Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.

Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.


You'd have a pretty versatile roster. If Brown could get it through his skull, you could play different teams with different personnel assortments.

And everything that's done at this point has to be done as much to keep LeBron as to win this year, although those two things generally go hand in hand. You'd have Mo, Andy, Amare, and Delonte signed up. That's a pretty good core. It'd be tough for LeBron to heart NY if he was walking away from that.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby RickNashEquilibrium » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:27 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Just because Mike Brown wasn't as smart as most of the people here who said to put Lebron on either Rashard/Turkoglu, doesn't mean he couldn't have handled it.


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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Ea$t $ide » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:28 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Amare is, hands down, a better long term option than Jamo.

Jamo is, hands down, a better 1 year player as long as Shaq is your starting center.

Getting LBJ a guy he considers a long term running mate >>> than getting a guy who is ideal to play next to Shaq.

Big Picture and stuff.



eye do you agree that winning a championship may be TIED with getting LBJ a long term running mate when it comes to keeping James in Cleveland? I agree with your take that Amare is better long term than Jamison. But the Cavs hand may be forced by desperation to win it all this year.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:35 pm

Mr. Burns wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:
Pup wrote:Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.

Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.


You'd have a pretty versatile roster. If Brown could get it through his skull, you could play different teams with different personnel assortments.

And everything that's done at this point has to be done as much to keep LeBron as to win this year, although those two things generally go hand in hand. You'd have Mo, Andy, Amare, and Delonte signed up. That's a pretty good core. It'd be tough for LeBron to heart NY if he was walking away from that.


I think they have a pretty versatile and that Brown actually has played different groups against different styles. Saturday night being the most recent example.

The Cavs can and do play multiple styles depending what's called for on a given evening. I think it's the biggest development from last year to this.

Not a Brown pollyanna but I think it's sinking in and he has a roster that makes it easier for him to go that route.

YMMV
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby pup » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:36 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
Pup wrote:Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.

Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.


Come on dude. You being real?

You don't see the difference in teaming Amare up with Z for at least 20 minutes a night and teaming him up with Shaq for those same minutes? The time with Andy would be the same. Wallace, if healthy was probably going to give Amare bench time and be teamed up with Z.

As a guess, last year you would have seen:

20 minutes - Z and Amare
10 minutes - Z and Ben/Andy
18 minutes - Andy and Amare

Now you can go without having having to play Amare with an equally poor at the rim defender. Ever. He will always be matched with Andy or Shaq (who is a much better defender in the post than Z, BTW)
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby neoleo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:38 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
NEOLeo wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:
Pup wrote:Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.

Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.


Not my argument, but come on man. If they were going to play LBJ at the 4, wouldn't they have done it against Orlando??? LBJ wasn't a 4 last year, period.


Just because Mike Brown wasn't as smart as most of the people here who said to put Lebron on either Rashard/Turkoglu, doesn't mean he couldn't have handled it.


I'm not disagreeing with LeBron at the four. Not to put words into Pup's mouth, but I didn't interpret his post as doing that either. The point is, LeBron did not play the four last year. Whether or not he could have or should have is a different discussion. He did not. Talking about hypothetical matchups from last year and using LeBron at the 4 is wrong, because LeBron did not play the four last year.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:40 pm

Pup wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:
Pup wrote:Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.

Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.


Come on dude. You being real?

You don't see the difference in teaming Amare up with Z for at least 20 minutes a night and teaming him up with Shaq for those same minutes? The time with Andy would be the same. Wallace, if healthy was probably going to give Amare bench time and be teamed up with Z.

As a guess, last year you would have seen:

20 minutes - Z and Amare
10 minutes - Z and Ben/Andy
18 minutes - Andy and Amare

Now you can go without having having to play Amare with an equally poor at the rim defender. Ever. He will always be matched with Andy or Shaq (who is a much better defender in the post than Z, BTW)

Go watch some Phoenix tape from last year and tell me how awesome the Amare/Shaq combo was on the defensive end. Tell me that it is clearly better than Z/Amare would have been. Then tell me how you figured that the minutes wouldn't break down more like
33 minutes - Amare and Andy
15 minutes - Z and Ben
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:44 pm

Go watch some Phoenix tape from last year and tell me how awesome the Amare/Shaq combo was on the defensive end.



Little bit of a misnomer considering the lack of emphasis on defense by Phoenix. If Brown has proven anything, it's that he can tailor his defense to minimize individual deficiencies.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby mrburns » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:45 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
Mr. Burns wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:
Pup wrote:Not even close.

LBJ wasn't too small, but they didn't do it.

As long as Z was in town, he was playing. Amare was going to play the 4. That would have made them even worse defensively with the bigs. Z and Amare in the post? Christ. Shaq or Andy in the post with Amare? I can handle that.

It isn't like you are going to play Moon at the 4 to defend Duncan. But Rashard? When need be? For sure.

Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.


You'd have a pretty versatile roster. If Brown could get it through his skull, you could play different teams with different personnel assortments.

And everything that's done at this point has to be done as much to keep LeBron as to win this year, although those two things generally go hand in hand. You'd have Mo, Andy, Amare, and Delonte signed up. That's a pretty good core. It'd be tough for LeBron to heart NY if he was walking away from that.


I think they have a pretty versatile and that Brown actually has played different groups against different styles. Saturday night being the most recent example.

The Cavs can and do play multiple styles depending what's called for on a given evening. I think it's the biggest development from last year to this.

Not a Brown pollyanna but I think it's sinking in and he has a roster that makes it easier for him to go that route.

YMMV


You're right, I just want to see it in the playoffs before I'm totally convinced that Brown's found religion. Still wish they'd go small more often.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rawdawgexpress » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:51 pm

LeBron, Amare, Mo, Parker, Varegao.

Typing that lineup took me five minutes because I had to stop and cleanup the drool.

The optimist:

1)Perhaps Stoudamire can learn to play defense under Brown and Lebron's tutelage, much like Mo Williams really picked up that part of his game.
2)Stoudamire would solve all our matchup problems with long and athletic teams like Charlotte, OKC and Memphis.

The pessimist:

1)He won't resign here. Even if Lebron does, choosing to take the foolish Shawn Marion route.
2)He gets injured.


BTW, the Hickson/Gooden comparisons are entirely valid and appropriate
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:52 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
Go watch some Phoenix tape from last year and tell me how awesome the Amare/Shaq combo was on the defensive end.



Little bit of a misnomer considering the lack of emphasis on defense by Phoenix. If Brown has proven anything, it's that he can tailor his defense to minimize individual deficiencies.

Terry Porter was the coach for half the season. They tried to make it work on defense.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:55 pm

NEOLeo wrote:I'm not disagreeing with LeBron at the four. Not to put words into Pup's mouth, but I didn't interpret his post as doing that either. The point is, LeBron did not play the four last year. Whether or not he could have or should have is a different discussion. He did not. Talking about hypothetical matchups from last year and using LeBron at the 4 is wrong, because LeBron did not play the four last year.

We are talking about hypothetical lineups for this year.

Playing LBJ at the 4 last year would not have been some out of the blue, OMG I can't believe they did that development. It would have been, 'it's about time'.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:57 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
Go watch some Phoenix tape from last year and tell me how awesome the Amare/Shaq combo was on the defensive end.



Little bit of a misnomer considering the lack of emphasis on defense by Phoenix. If Brown has proven anything, it's that he can tailor his defense to minimize individual deficiencies.

Terry Porter was the coach for half the season. They tried to make it work on defense.



True, but it's extremely hard to get a team that played zero defense for 5 years to suddenly want to play defense. Coming into a team with a strong defensive identity would seem (to me) easier to adjust to. Course Amare could just say "Fuck it all, I'm getting mine and then I'm outta here to be The Man."
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:58 pm

NEOLeo wrote:I'm not disagreeing with LeBron at the four. Not to put words into Pup's mouth, but I didn't interpret his post as doing that either. The point is, LeBron did not play the four last year. Whether or not he could have or should have is a different discussion. He did not. Talking about hypothetical matchups from last year and using LeBron at the 4 is wrong, because LeBron did not play the four last year.

We are talking about hypothetical lineups for this year. We are also talking about a hypothetical lineup for last year.

Playing LBJ at the 4 last year would not have been some out of the blue, OMG I can't believe they did that development. It would have been, 'it's about time'. You are right, insofar as LBJ got minimal time at the 4 last year, but I'm not sure what your beef is as the only point is that there was no reason they couldn't have increased that had the roster depended on it. Brown's idiocy vs Orlando is a clear demonstration that they SHOULD have.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:58 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
Go watch some Phoenix tape from last year and tell me how awesome the Amare/Shaq combo was on the defensive end.



Little bit of a misnomer considering the lack of emphasis on defense by Phoenix. If Brown has proven anything, it's that he can tailor his defense to minimize individual deficiencies.

Terry Porter was the coach for half the season. They tried to make it work on defense.



True, but it's extremely hard to get a team that played zero defense for 5 years to suddenly want to play defense. Coming into a team with a strong defensive identity would seem (to me) easier to adjust to. Course Amare could just say "Fuck it all, I'm getting mine and then I'm outta here to be The Man."

Yeah, I agree with that.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby neoleo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:03 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
NEOLeo wrote:I'm not disagreeing with LeBron at the four. Not to put words into Pup's mouth, but I didn't interpret his post as doing that either. The point is, LeBron did not play the four last year. Whether or not he could have or should have is a different discussion. He did not. Talking about hypothetical matchups from last year and using LeBron at the 4 is wrong, because LeBron did not play the four last year.


We are talking about hypothetical lineups for this year.


Using Ben Wallace in a hypothetical lineup makes it from 2008-2009.

aoxo1 wrote:Playing LBJ at the 4 last year would not have been some out of the blue, OMG I can't believe they did that development. It would have been, 'it's about time'.


Agreed. Again, what I think doesn't matter because it never happened. Could it have, yes. Should it have, yes. Did it, no.

I think Cedric Jackson should start at point guard in order to keep Boobie in his better suited role of coming off the bench and staying off the ball. Could that happen, yes. Will it happen, no. That makes it useless for me to project my hypothetical lineup of Jackson, Parker, LeBron, Hickson and Shaq. Because it's not a real option.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:19 pm

Quick blurb regarding LBJ which may tie in w/ Amare's name coming up in trade discussion.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=15078

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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:31 pm

NEOLeo wrote:Using Ben Wallace in a hypothetical lineup makes it from 2008-2009.

Please go back and reread the posts.
aoxo1 wrote:Right. Because LBJ was too small to play 4 last year, Andy wasn't on the roster, Jamario Moon isn't a string bean who gets pushed around by bigger 3s, and Shaq is a 'defender'. If anything, last year this should have been your take as everyone expected Ben to recover in time for the playoffs.

Pup wrote:Come on dude. You being real?

You don't see the difference in teaming Amare up with Z for at least 20 minutes a night and teaming him up with Shaq for those same minutes? The time with Andy would be the same. Wallace, if healthy was probably going to give Amare bench time and be teamed up with Z.

As a guess, last year you would have seen:

20 minutes - Z and Amare
10 minutes - Z and Ben/Andy
18 minutes - Andy and Amare

Now you can go without having having to play Amare with an equally poor at the rim defender. Ever. He will always be matched with Andy or Shaq (who is a much better defender in the post than Z, BTW)

aoxo1 wrote:Go watch some Phoenix tape from last year and tell me how awesome the Amare/Shaq combo was on the defensive end. Tell me that it is clearly better than Z/Amare would have been. Then tell me how you figured that the minutes wouldn't break down more like
33 minutes - Amare and Andy
15 minutes - Z and Ben


My statement about hypotheticals was in reference to your assertion that discussing them playing LBJ at the 4 is irrelevant because it is hypothetical, and that everything we are discussing is hypothetical because Amare is not a Cav. If you don't want to discuss hypotheticals, please refrain from posting in a thread about a hypothetical trade.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:33 pm

NEOLeo wrote:Agreed. Again, what I think doesn't matter because it never happened. Could it have, yes. Should it have, yes. Did it, no.

sigh
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby neoleo » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:58 pm

aoxo1 wrote:My statement about hypotheticals was in reference to your assertion that discussing them playing LBJ at the 4 is irrelevant because it is hypothetical, and that everything we are discussing is hypothetical because Amare is not a Cav. If you don't want to discuss hypotheticals, please refrain from posting in a thread about a hypothetical trade.


No worries bro, its really not worth getting worked up over.

To be clear, I jumped in after this take:

aoxo1 wrote:Oh, I see. Because they didn't play LBJ at the 4 means they couldn't have. That makes perfect sense.

And, again, Andy was on the roster last year.


I was referencing last year as you were in this post. The posts that you quoted above came after my initial statement. I understand hypotheticals and that's why we're all here and that's what makes this fun.

I agreed at Pup's point that we now had the flexibility to play Amare with somebody other than Z, which last year we didn't (outside of Andy, which you rightfully pointed out).

My one and only point was this: If you're using LeBron at the four from last year as an argument that we did in fact have that flexibility, than (in my opinion) that take is wrong. Because LeBron never played the four last year. That's not hypothetical, that's fact.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:11 pm

NEOLeo wrote: Because LeBron never played the four last year. That's not hypothetical, that's fact.

http://www.82games.com/0809/0809CLE2.HTM

4 Gibson-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 136
8 Gibson-Williams-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 78
15 Williams-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 47
16 West-Szczerbiak-Pavlovic-James-Varejao 44
18 Gibson-Szczerbiak-Pavlovic-James-Varejao 36

And sorry, but last year we had the ability to play Amare with Ben Wallace as well.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:40 pm

FWIW: Wally almost exclusively guarded the other teams four in those lineups.
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