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Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Frank Duffy » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:25 am

Amazing stuff. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=a ... &type=lgns

Makes it sound like we're in the driver's seat. Either Tawn w/o giving up JJ, - or - Amare if we want him. Windy says he wants Tawn, and I can't say I disagree.

Who's bluffing who - are we playing up Tawn to get Pho to jump.

Or are we using Amare to beat down Grunfeld. Sounds like the latter. And what does LB really want?

Could Ferry really pull it off, and maybe a bonus we aren't hearing about (Magette, Rip?)
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby dmiles » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:16 am

Yow, I can't decide, I need to sleep on it. Antwan while keeping JJ, or Amare.

If all these reports or true it would seem we keep another trade chip at least by going with Twan, but on the other hand his salary is locked up until he is eating poy. Amare, you have no guarantee after this year, does he want to play with Bron and win?

Good problems to have. Another crazy day coming tomorrow. Christ our office is announcing a major relocation of a whole bunch of positions in our division from SD to Orlando and there are meetings literally all day, I hope there are dial-ins, so I don't have to show in person. Nothing like that awkward con-call moment where someone is saying "right dmiles" and you have to have them repeat what they just said.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:51 am

It would be better to get Jamison without JJ involved. Especially if they release Z.

Z, Shaq, Jamison, V, JJ and LBJ - that's some bigs right there. Backcourt is open all day for 3's at will.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:53 am

bookelly wrote:It would be better to get Jamison without JJ involved. Especially if they release Z.

Z, Shaq, Jamison, V, JJ and LBJ - that's some bigs right there. Backcourt is open all day for 3's at will.


Jamison would be the guy shooting the threes. The stretch four aspect of Jamison's game is the most valuable to the Cavs, to the point that I think he would start the majority of plays camped out on the sideline. When he does go inside, he's highly skilled and fairly wide, so he can play the post. But the one caveat with Jamo is that he's only about 6'-8" so he's not going to help a whole lot with matchups against 7-footers or near 7-footers. He's a SF/PF combo.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:08 am

Mac, I'm just not going to get into this debate now.

Not at all.

You railing about this is one of the more annoying aspects of your personality though. LBJ + Wade + filler is better then LBJ + anything we have (I mean a 38 year old is our second option right now) and LBJ + Bosh + Rose + Noah + Deng is insane. BTW: Chicago is done w/ Thomas he will be traded or not offered a QO, he will be off the books.

Two max players changes the game and will be looked into by LBJ. I don't know if he leaves or not, but claiming he won't test the FA markets is just being ignorant. Every single sign he has given over the years is that he is going to see what is out there.

Last on this. Not going to derail the trade rumors thread so you can write a novel on why LBJ is going to sign an extension that he would have signed already had that been his intent. I mean, his refusal to sign an extension is why Ariza isn't here.

It's not about a few million and LBJ will explore every avenue.

Those be facts.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:13 am

Latest from Broussard falls in line w/ Windy saying Amare is still target #1:

Chris Broussard: Sources with direct knowledge of negotiations between the Cavaliers and Wizards deny a report that the Cavs have made an offer (Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Jamario Moon, first-round pick) for Antawn Jamison.

The clubs have had discussions, but no offer is on the table, according to the sources.

Cleveland is still waiting for Phoenix to give a verdict on its offer of Ilgauskas, J.J. Hickson and a first-round pick for Amare Stoudemire. But the Cavs' interest in Jamison is real. Cleveland is very excited about Hickson's development and if the Cavs could obtain Jamison without giving up Hickson, they might consider taking that deal over the Stoudemire deal.

The Cavs have also had talks with Indiana about Troy Murphy, as well as with Golden State about Corey Maggette.

Phoenix has been shopping Cleveland's offer around the league, basically asking clubs whether they can top it.

Miami is trying, and Charlotte also tried to get in the discussions. But the Bobcats don't have any expiring contracts, so they have nothing of interest to the Suns. Sources say Stoudemire would not be interested in re-signing with Charlotte anyway.

There has been speculation that the Cavs are not truly interested in Stoudemire because they have yet to contact his agent, Happy Walters, about whether Stoudemire would sign a long-term deal with Cleveland.

But sources close to the situation say Stoudemire would be of value to the Cavaliers regardless of his feelings about a long-term contract. If things go well and Cleveland wins a title, he likely will want to re-sign, and if he doesn't want to re-sign, the Cavs will be able to use him in a sign-and-trade deal.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:20 am

e0y2e3 wrote:LBJ + Wade + filler is better then LBJ + anything we have


Sincerely,
How Lebron Became Kobe, Kevin, and Dwight's Bitch

There'd be nothing on that roster beyond LBJ and Wade. Nobody who'd stay long enough to matter. (See: James Posey and the Boston Celtics) And you absolutely need those third and fourth guys like Odom/Ariza or Shuttlesworth/Rondo as well as a solid bench. It'd be back to 2004 for Lebron, only with a Ricky Davis that can actually ball. 50, 55 wins tops

LBJ + Bosh + Rose + Noah + Deng is insane.


That on the other hand I can't argue with.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:33 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:LBJ + Wade + filler is better then LBJ + anything we have


Sincerely,
How Lebron Became Kobe, Kevin, and Dwight's Bitch

There'd be nothing on that roster beyond LBJ and Wade. Nobody who'd stay long enough to matter. (See: James Posey and the Boston Celtics) And you absolutely need those third and fourth guys like Odom/Ariza or Shuttlesworth/Rondo as well as a solid bench. It'd be back to 2004 for Lebron, only with a Ricky Davis that can actually ball. 50, 55 wins tops

LBJ + Bosh + Rose + Noah + Deng is insane.


That on the other hand I can't argue with.


Yeah, it'd be back to 2004 with Lebron, except for the fact D. Wade would be with him.

Christ, you talk about filler - what the hell was the 2004 Cavs?

Good Christ, Eric Snow, a dumbass Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes.... Any 7 rummies they get to run out there with Lebron and D. Wade would have a better title shot.

Clearly.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:57 am

e0y2e3 wrote:LBJ + Wade + filler is better then LBJ + anything we have (I mean a 38 year old is our second option right now)


[Reagan voice]There you go again.[/Reagan voice]

You need more than just two players if you want to get anywhere in the Association. LBJ + Wade + Seven Guys Named Moe will win 50 games and be a second-round playoff exit team.

LBJ + Bosh + Rose + Noah + Deng is insane.


Put together that team on NBA Live 2010 and let us know how it turns out, because that's the only place you'll see those guys playing together. Not to mention that their bench of Devin Brown + Flip Murray + Josh Boone + Mikki Moore + Coby Karl (or whatever other minimum-salary players they find) will be equally insane, but for different reasons.

Two max players changes the game and will be looked into by LBJ.


Not for very long. LBJ knows what I said a few paragraphs ago: that he + another max player + Seven Guys Named Moe will not get him the titles that he craves. If he goes anywhere else, that team must have the cap room to sign him, and that means that team will not be in a position to take advantage of the MLE, or otherwise go over the cap to add the complementary talent. Bron already has done his time on shitty teams; he is not going to want to be part of another building process.

But rather than posturing back and forth, can you back up your claim that a team with two superstars + little else can win a title? What's your precedent for being so sure that this is a blueprint for success? What other title winner has used that formula?

I mean, his refusal to sign an extension is why Ariza isn't here.


1. 100% speculation.

2. If it's true, then we should all be thankful that LBJ has dragged his feet on signing an extension, because Ariza's been pretty awful. Classic case of a guy who had a good playoff run and parlayed it into a long-term deal that he really didn't deserve. But because he was signed by Exalted High GM Daryl Morey, a lot of people get fooled into thinking it was a brilliant move by the Rockets.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:57 am

The only thing I'll add to the "LBJ+Wade+YMCA pickup team" argument is that one of those seven guys named Moe had better be a damn good post defender.

Regardless of where Amare ends up between now and tomorrow afternoon, chances are his future is in the Eastern Conference. For poops and giggles, let's say Amare ends up with the Knicks along with Joe Johnson next season, and the Heat get LBJ and Wade. That means the LBJ-Wade Wonder Twins will have to contend with Dewey and Amare and possibly a rebuilt C's team that still has K-Perk. If Michael Beasley is Miami's best post player, they are still going to be at a woeful disadvantage within 10 feet of the basket.

Now, you can say that LBJ and Wade are the two best slasher-drivers in the game, and an LBJ-Wade tandem would probably live at the free-throw line. That is probably true. But LBJ and Wade also hoist from outside a lot because there is only so much of a beating they can take driving inside. They're going to give up the paint at some point, and that's when the mismatches against teams that have dominant post players will become evident.

If you don't win the game in the paint, you probably don't win the playoff series. Maybe Shaq follows Bron to Miami and signs for peanuts, but even so, he'd be a short-term fix like he is here, and a Bron-Wade tandem wouldn't be about short-term fixes. They'd be about teaming up to rattle off six titles in eight years. Not even two titles in eight years. If they didn't clean up the way Jordan cleaned up in the '90s, the experiment would be a failure.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:07 am

Well, if you want to get the homer brigade out all you have to do is suggest LBJ is going to at least consider playing w/ Wade or Bosh since teams now can afford them both. I mean, dare infer that two 40 year old centers, one Andy and a bunch of three point shooters may not be the greatest long term team out there and they come running. "CHEMISTRY!" "BUT THE SEVENTH MAN!" "WHO CARES IF THE CELTICS PULLED IT OFF!" "CHEMISTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" "OLD PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!"

Seriously, we have the entire fucking off-season to beat this up. We all know where everyone stands. I am the antichrist for suggesting LBJ is going to weigh his options and this team is perfect because of CHEMISTRY!!!!! (alright, I'll stop, seriously). Can we just not talk about this. My only point was Mac's 5K word essay on why LBJ will sign an extension was bull shit, LBJ is not going to reup anywhere before at least looking at what's out there. If for not other reason then his inner drama queen (an olive branch for the homers).

As for Ariza, get off it Hnat. Guy is a #3 and a damn good one. He is a classic example of a team have no go to guy and trying to be a #1 when he has no business doing so. That would never happen w/ LBJ, never ever. His skill set is still perfect to play off of LBJ. This chucking he is demonstrating is what happens when you play on a team where Carl Landry comes off the bench to be your crunch time scorer.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:11 am

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... &type=lgns

Amar’e Stoudemire(notes) and the Phoenix Suns are no longer discussing a contract extension, and the All-Star forward was privately telling friends that he believes he’s playing his last game in a Suns uniform on Wednesday night in Dallas, sources said.

As Yahoo! Sports reported, agent Happy Walters and Suns general manager Steve Kerr exchanged contract offers over the weekend but were far apart in talks, sources said. Those privy to the conversations among Suns ownership, management and Walters say they no longer include scenarios where Stoudemire isn’t traded prior to Thursday’s deadline.


Stoudemire can opt out of the $17.7 million on his 2010-11 contract; unless the Suns trade him, they could end up getting nothing for him.

Meanwhile, the Miami Heat are still working to put together a package for Stoudemire, although a source familiar with Pat Riley’s most recent offer says it doesn’t include Michael Beasley(notes). Miami failed in its attempt to enlist the Charlotte Bobcats as a partner to take on Udonis Haslem(notes) in a three-team trade.

The Heat could be willing to take on Jason Richardson’s(notes) contract, which has one year worth $14.4 million left after this season, for the chance to land Stoudemire to play alongside Dwyane Wade(notes).
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:18 am

Ariza sucks. Missing on him was even more fortuitous in hindsight than missing on Rasheed Wallace. He's a healthier Larry Hughes. (Slasher that finishes poorly at the rim and doesn't fit the team concept)

Shit, I think i'd rather have Parker than deal with that mess all over again.

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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:25 am

Gradysmanldy wrote:Ariza sucks. Missing on him was even more fortuitous in hindsight than missing on Rasheed Wallace. He's a healthier Larry Hughes. (Slasher that finishes poorly at the rim and doesn't fit the team concept)

Shit, I think i'd rather have Parker than deal with that mess all over again.

http://www.red94.net/?p=617


Possibly the dumbest thing ever written here.

No it is.

Comparing Ariza to Sheed? What is so hard to grasp about Ariza being a complimentary player that would excel in a role being occupied by Parker that is trying to be "The Man" right now and looking like crap because of it. Ever heard of players trying to do too much? Well he is trying to do infinitely too much.

He is not "The Man" and would be 100x better served on a team that let him be that defensive stopper spot up 3 point shooter he should be. He should be playing the role of a 100x more athletic Parker, not the first option on offense.

Christ, I need to take the rest of the afternoon off and hope you guys finish your homer orgy up so things can actually be discussed w/ a level head.

Next up: Why Anthony Parker will keep LBJ in Cleveland. That's pretty much the only evolution left here.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby pod2dawg » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:30 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Well, if you want to get the homer brigade out all you have to do is suggest LBJ is going to at least consider playing w/ Wade or Bosh since teams now can afford them both. I mean, dare infer that two 40 year old centers, one Andy and a bunch of three point shooters may not be the greatest long term team out there and they come running.


Bingo!!! The 1000 lb. Gorilla in the "room." LBJ, Wade, & Bosh ain't dumb. Neither are their agents, handlers, & sponsors. Thus it is more "complicated" than we air-breathers can fathom..well unless you are knocking down 15-25 million a year.

Uh, no state income tax, homestead exemption, warm weather ( see FLA)..does matter.

Cross reference this with, well rings, rings for more than one year. So this isn't about us ?

Get me a f@##$%cking scoring threat at #4 with some length to defend against R. Lewis and bang with Odom. Get us a ring this century.

:guns:
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:48 am

Don't know if it was posted earlier but the Heat's offer for Amare is Daequan, Q-Richardson, Dorrell Wright, and Chalmers (+ picks). If that's not just a pile of shit I don't know what is. I wouldn't even trade Hickson for that crap. I don't think there's any way the Heat can get Stoudemire without adding Beasley to the pot.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:49 am

problem is reb, reports are Phoenix wants nothing to do w/ Beasley, hence the entire third team angle.

And Windy said this rumor makes no sense, as taking on four players would make Phoenix cut one. Which would not help them get under the tax.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:52 am

e0y2e3 wrote:problem is reb, reports are Phoenix wants nothing to do w/ Beasley, hence the entire third team angle.

And Windy said this rumor makes no sense, as taking on four players would make Phoenix cut one. Which would not help them get under the tax.


Not to count our chickens, but Miami has been trying to find a third team for days now. I dont see how they find one in the next 24 hours. I think it comes down to whether PHX pulls the trigger to us or puss out
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:55 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Well, if you want to get the homer brigade out all you have to do is suggest LBJ is going to at least consider playing w/ Wade or Bosh since teams now can afford them both. I mean, dare infer that two 40 year old centers, one Andy and a bunch of three point shooters may not be the greatest long term team out there and they come running. "CHEMISTRY!" "BUT THE SEVENTH MAN!" "WHO CARES IF THE CELTICS PULLED IT OFF!" "CHEMISTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" "OLD PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!"


No homer brigade here. I asked you to put up some proof for your take that two superstars + seven scrubs can win a title. You responded with the tired old contrarian "if you disagree with me, then you're wearing wine and gold colored glasses!!!111!!!!!" shit. I call bullshit on it, as it has nothing to do with the discussion. What else ya got?

BTW, the Celtics didn't pull off anything close to what you're suggesting. Bad comp.


I am the antichrist for suggesting LBJ is going to weigh his options and this team is perfect because of CHEMISTRY!!!!! (alright, I'll stop, seriously).


Nobody called you the Antichrist, and nobody said that the Cavs are a perfect team. If you can back up your take that Bron/Wade/seven popcorn vendors is a title-contending team, do it. If you can't, admit it and then we can all move on.

Straw men are for the weak. You're a lot better than this.


Can we just not talk about this.


If you really don't want to talk about it, then don't. It's not like there's a law requiring you to hit the Reply link. I mean, you act bothered when somebody responds to something you wrote on a PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD. It's like going to the desert and being shocked to find sand there.


As for Ariza, get off it Hnat. Guy is a #3 and a damn good one.


Why? Cause you say so? Where has he been a #3 before? Sure as hell wasn't LA. He was maybe a #5 there, behind Kobe, the Geico Caveman, Bynum, and Odom. Fuck, Derek Fisher had more plays run for him than Ariza did.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:58 am

e0y2e3 wrote:problem is reb, reports are Phoenix wants nothing to do w/ Beasley, hence the entire third team angle.

And Windy said this rumor makes no sense, as taking on four players would make Phoenix cut one. Which would not help them get under the tax.



There've been reports refuting those reports at least saying they're not entirely against taking on Beasley. If they don't want Beasley then the only way they can get Amare is by taking Richardson, which as Ziner said, would require a 3rd team.


Based on everything the Suns have asked for (expirings + young talent) I think it's 50% that Amare is a Cav, 40% the Suns hang onto him (because you know... they're the Suns and don't know how to run an organization) and 10% he's a member of the Heat.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:00 pm

RE: Eye and DS, just gonna throw this out there as I don't remember. I'm guessing the Bulls were thought of as Jordan and Pippen plus a bunch of scrubs before they won a title; then those scrubs instantly turned into viable role players.


Edit: Also, a tandem of Bron-Wade could possibly turn into a Shaq-Kobe situation where veterans are all taking the minimum for a shot at the ring.
Last edited by rebelwithoutaclue on Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:00 pm

Glad to see my obvious sarcasm and desire to not completely hijack the trade dead-line flew right over your head Hnat.

Again, we have six plus months to argue over this. I was being sarcastic in my response intentionally, to avoid conversing over this and spending 10K words between all of us on it when we can do it just as easily, you know, not <48 hours before the dead-line.

You didn't get a serious response from me on this and you won't.

And yeah, #3 was typed in a rush and w/ out thinking. Maybe I should have just written a much better version of Anthony Parker re Ariza.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:02 pm

It's starting to look like all Miami paths to Amare are going to involve taking J-Rich with him. I think that's the crux of the matter for the Suns. The Cavs don't have the ammo or interest to take on J-Rich and the $20-odd million he's owed this year and next. So if the Suns want to dump J-Rich, they have to wait and see if Miami cracks or finds a third-team taker.

That's why the Cavs are kind of the fail-safe in the Amare discussions for PHX. The Z/JJ offer is on the table, the Suns don't think it's the worst proposal ever, but they want to see if Miami can do better. And Riley is working his ass off to try.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:03 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:40% the Suns hang onto him (because you know... they're the Suns and don't know how to run an organization)


Good lord would that be a cluster fuck. W/ him currently telling fans he thinks he is done there, w/ all of the press and drama, w/ all of the distractions. My lord would that create an awkward second half of the season.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:05 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:40% the Suns hang onto him (because you know... they're the Suns and don't know how to run an organization)


Good lord would that be a cluster fuck. W/ him currently telling fans he thinks he is done there, w/ all of the press and drama, w/ all of the distractions. My lord would that create an awkward second half of the season.



True, but they did the exact same thing last year so I won't put anything past them.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:06 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Ariza sucks. Missing on him was even more fortuitous in hindsight than missing on Rasheed Wallace. He's a healthier Larry Hughes. (Slasher that finishes poorly at the rim and doesn't fit the team concept)

Shit, I think i'd rather have Parker than deal with that mess all over again.

http://www.red94.net/?p=617


Possibly the dumbest thing ever written here.

No it is.

Comparing Ariza to Sheed? What is so hard to grasp about Ariza being a complimentary player that would excel in a role being occupied by Parker that is trying to be "The Man" right now and looking like crap because of it. Ever heard of players trying to do too much? Well he is trying to do infinitely too much.

He is not "The Man" and would be 100x better served on a team that let him be that defensive stopper spot up 3 point shooter he should be. He should be playing the role of a 100x more athletic Parker, not the first option on offense.

Christ, I need to take the rest of the afternoon off and hope you guys finish your homer orgy up so things can actually be discussed w/ a level head.

Next up: Why Anthony Parker will keep LBJ in Cleveland. That's pretty much the only evolution left here.


You lose cred when you say any take that disagrees with yours is "The stupidest thing you've ever heard"

And really, our LBJ homer orgy is less annoying than watching you stomp around the board like someone took your lollipop.

The only comparison I made to Sheed is that we're better served without either of them. Ariza is a solid role player, much like Moon and Boobie. He has one offensive skill; slashing to the basket w/o the ball or bursting past his defender to the hoop. He's not clever with the dribble or possessing the footwork to get around them. Zero post game. Poor passer. Mediocre rebounder for a 6'7" guard.

Good defender though, which is why I liked him here; for upwards of 6-7M a year, I'm glad the Cavs passed. Moon fulfills 75-90% of the role Ariza would for 50% of the price and much more flexibility. Shit, I think most people can say that THIS cavs team is better with Moon+boobie than Ariza, at the price.

Spot up three point shooter? with a .302 career clip? Please. He hit a few open looks in the playoffs last year and suddenly he's found the range he's been missing his whole career ? Pffbbbbt.

I agree that he's a great defender, and that he's being poorly utilized on a rockets team that is hamstrung by the contracts of Yao and Mcgrady and stuck without a primary playmaker. Brooks is nice and Landry is a good role player, but they're just too short to make a push with what they have.

He'd be a #3 in Houston if they acquired or signed a focal point for the offense.....right now he's essentially #2....but I think he's best served as a 4-5th type option like he was in LA. Wide open looks from range or a defender trying to help off on another player and providing him a path to the basket to cut.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:07 pm

Okay, after 5 days of this stuff I have it all figured out.

According to the internet experts the Cavs will receive Amar'e, Jamison, Murphy, Maggette amd Mike James. Gone will be JJ, Moon, Z, Danny Green, Wally's ghost and Shaq.

Is that about right?

Settle down fellas. Enjoy the show. This one, the run to the Finals show and then the LBJ soap opera. Yes, he will consider those options. His ego demands it and it's fun to think about in all honesty.

Then he will let it go and realize this is home, this is where his owner takes care of him, this is where he's best set to win for years to come.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:09 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Ariza sucks. Missing on him was even more fortuitous in hindsight than missing on Rasheed Wallace. He's a healthier Larry Hughes. (Slasher that finishes poorly at the rim and doesn't fit the team concept)

Shit, I think i'd rather have Parker than deal with that mess all over again.

http://www.red94.net/?p=617


Possibly the dumbest thing ever written here.

No it is.

Comparing Ariza to Sheed? What is so hard to grasp about Ariza being a complimentary player that would excel in a role being occupied by Parker that is trying to be "The Man" right now and looking like crap because of it. Ever heard of players trying to do too much? Well he is trying to do infinitely too much.

He is not "The Man" and would be 100x better served on a team that let him be that defensive stopper spot up 3 point shooter he should be. He should be playing the role of a 100x more athletic Parker, not the first option on offense.

Christ, I need to take the rest of the afternoon off and hope you guys finish your homer orgy up so things can actually be discussed w/ a level head.

Next up: Why Anthony Parker will keep LBJ in Cleveland. That's pretty much the only evolution left here.


You lose cred when you say any take that disagrees with yours is "The stupidest thing you've ever heard"

And really, our LBJ homer orgy is less annoying than watching you stomp around the board like someone took your lollipop.

The only comparison I made to Sheed is that we're better served without either of them. Ariza is a solid role player, much like Moon and Boobie. He has one offensive skill; slashing to the basket w/o the ball or bursting past his defender to the hoop. He's not clever with the dribble or possessing the footwork to get around them. Zero post game. Poor passer. Mediocre rebounder for a 6'7" guard.

Good defender though, which is why I liked him here; for upwards of 6-7M a year, I'm glad the Cavs passed. Moon fulfills 75-90% of the role Ariza would for 50% of the price and much more flexibility. Shit, I think most people can say that THIS cavs team is better with Moon+boobie than Ariza, at the price.

Spot up three point shooter? with a .302 career clip? Please. He hit a few open looks in the playoffs last year and suddenly he's found the range he's been missing his whole career ? Pffbbbbt.

I agree that he's a great defender, and that he's being poorly utilized on a rockets team that is hamstrung by the contracts of Yao and Mcgrady and stuck without a primary playmaker. Brooks is nice and Landry is a good role player, but they're just too short to make a push with what they have.

He'd be a #3 in Houston if they acquired or signed a focal point for the offense.....right now he's essentially #2....but I think he's best served as a 4-5th type option like he was in LA. Wide open looks from range or a defender trying to help off on another player and providing him a path to the basket to cut.



No, what you originally wrote in no way reflects what you wrote here. I am not going to call this stupid either. I strongly disagree as Moon cannot move laterly on defense and Ariza can drain open 3's, as shared by well, most GMs in the league, the Zen master, etc.

If you didn't want to blow the money on him so be it. W/ his age and potential to get better at his role I would have no problem blowing Dan Gilbert's money.

Other then that, you make absurd metaphors constantly then come back w/ the "but I meant this"

Just stop doing it if you want to stop being called stupid.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:12 pm

Amar'e was being interviewed on NBA tv last night after the game, and they grilled him pretty heavily about the trade rumors. He said all the Bull Durham esque right things.....loves phoenix, just wants to help the team gel and make noise in the playoffs, giving his 100%, etc.

They asked him where he'd MOST like to be, this year and next, and he hedged for a moment before answering, "Wherever I have a chance to win the most championships" or something to that effect.

I think Phoenix would get over the chatter about him being 100% gone in a hurry....he's been rumored in trades for 2.5 years.

I'd up the % of him staying to 25%....Phoenix is an absolute fucking disaster of a front office. The way they handled the Joe Johnson situation, coaching situation, etc.....horrific. It's amazing they've stayed competitive with the mistakes they've made.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rk » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:12 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Good lord would that be a cluster fuck. W/ him currently telling fans he thinks he is done there, w/ all of the press and drama, w/ all of the distractions. My lord would that create an awkward second half of the season.


That's not going to happen but for the record if the Suns goal was to win in the future rather than be cheap and hope to win it's not a bad option. Amare is primed for a S&T in the offseason where the Suns should be able to get more than a Hickson level developmental player. That's why Ferry would rather get Amare than Twan right now w/o negotiating an extension but he isn't living under the same constraints that Phoenix is regarding dollars and sense.

As for Ariza he'd be better in Cleveland, LA, or a Yao-filled Houston than he is in his current situation. Still think that Houston spent their money more wisely on him than if they'd brought back Artest.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:18 pm

Ariza sucks. Missing on him was even more fortuitous in hindsight than missing on Rasheed Wallace. He's a healthier Larry Hughes. (Slasher that finishes poorly at the rim and doesn't fit the team concept)


met⋅a⋅phor  [met-uh-fawr, -fer] Show IPA
–noun
1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.” Compare mixed metaphor, simile (def. 1).
2. something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol.

I shouldn't have to tell you what that is, considering you're an east coast elite and all.....

I'm pretty sure i'm not speaking metaphorically. They were both players the Cavs were hot and bothered over. They are both currently overpaid and underperforming. (For different reasons) I was stating (clearly enough) that both of them are better served where they are (performance to $$) than here.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:21 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:
Ariza sucks. Missing on him was even more fortuitous in hindsight than missing on Rasheed Wallace. He's a healthier Larry Hughes. (Slasher that finishes poorly at the rim and doesn't fit the team concept)



Seriously, just stop.

Read the words "sucks" and "even more fortuitous"

You wrote absurdity. You covered it by writing a solid take afterward.

You got called and fixed your error.

Deal w/ it.

"Ariza SUCKS!!!!!!!!!"

Wait, I just meant he is way overpaid.

And this doesn't even broach your team concept take, which is, well absurd.

I mean what are you basing that on? Him being an ideal Role player last year and his team loving him or his team being w/ out order this year?
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:24 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:40% the Suns hang onto him (because you know... they're the Suns and don't know how to run an organization)


Good lord would that be a cluster fuck. W/ him currently telling fans he thinks he is done there, w/ all of the press and drama, w/ all of the distractions. My lord would that create an awkward second half of the season.


That's what has me perplexed in all of this. The Suns are negotiating Amare's trade in public, and have been in earnest since Friday. Maybe Woj and the Laptop Media Brigade are good at cultivating sources and anonymous moles in NBA front offices. But still, the Suns' dirty laundry has been swinging in the wind for almost a week. WTF are their media relations guys doing besides shooing beat reporters out of the locker room after games? Who's keeping the information gate out there? Maybe they can't stop everything from leaking, but they can stop the rumor-monsoon that has been raging for the past week.

The Suns are completely FUBAR-ing their reputation within NBA player circles by handling Amare like this. If you're an NBA star, how likely is it that you'd want to play for the Suns after this, warm weather in February aside? They don't protect their players from prying eyes very well. They don't keep in-house things in-house as a policy. As a result, everything ends up in the newspaper or on ESPN.

Apparently, there are leaks all over that organization, which is a sign of weak leadership or infighting in the rank and file of the FO. The Phoenix Suns have taken a massive dump since Robert Sarver bought them. It isn't totally evident in the standings yet, but it might be sometime soon.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:26 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Glad to see my obvious sarcasm and desire to not completely hijack the trade dead-line flew right over your head Hnat. You didn't get a serious response from me on this and you won't.


Translation: it was a stupid take, but I can't man up and own it, so I'll pretend I never meant it. Right from page 2 of the Eye Playbook.

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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:29 pm

DiminishingSkills wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Glad to see my obvious sarcasm and desire to not completely hijack the trade dead-line flew right over your head Hnat. You didn't get a serious response from me on this and you won't.


Translation: it was a stupid take, but I can't man up and own it, so I'll pretend I never meant it. Right from page 2 of the Eye Playbook.

Nothing more to see here, folks. As you were.


Hnat do you seriously want to argue about this right now?

Call me Friday, I'm down.

Christ.

I mean reb just gave you two possibilities, yet you really want to push this right now?

Just stop man. I know you are foaming at the mouth to hash this out, but, just about any other point in the year would make infinitely more sense.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Hi Oktane » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:30 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Ariza sucks. Missing on him was even more fortuitous in hindsight than missing on Rasheed Wallace. He's a healthier Larry Hughes. (Slasher that finishes poorly at the rim and doesn't fit the team concept)

Shit, I think i'd rather have Parker than deal with that mess all over again.

http://www.red94.net/?p=617


Possibly the dumbest thing ever written here.

No it is.

Comparing Ariza to Sheed? What is so hard to grasp about Ariza being a complimentary player that would excel in a role being occupied by Parker that is trying to be "The Man" right now and looking like crap because of it. Ever heard of players trying to do too much? Well he is trying to do infinitely too much.

He is not "The Man" and would be 100x better served on a team that let him be that defensive stopper spot up 3 point shooter he should be. He should be playing the role of a 100x more athletic Parker, not the first option on offense.

Christ, I need to take the rest of the afternoon off and hope you guys finish your homer orgy up so things can actually be discussed w/ a level head.

Next up: Why Anthony Parker will keep LBJ in Cleveland. That's pretty much the only evolution left here.


You lose cred when you say any take that disagrees with yours is "The stupidest thing you've ever heard"

And really, our LBJ homer orgy is less annoying than watching you stomp around the board like someone took your lollipop.

The only comparison I made to Sheed is that we're better served without either of them. Ariza is a solid role player, much like Moon and Boobie. He has one offensive skill; slashing to the basket w/o the ball or bursting past his defender to the hoop. He's not clever with the dribble or possessing the footwork to get around them. Zero post game. Poor passer. Mediocre rebounder for a 6'7" guard.

Good defender though, which is why I liked him here; for upwards of 6-7M a year, I'm glad the Cavs passed. Moon fulfills 75-90% of the role Ariza would for 50% of the price and much more flexibility. Shit, I think most people can say that THIS cavs team is better with Moon+boobie than Ariza, at the price.

Spot up three point shooter? with a .302 career clip? Please. He hit a few open looks in the playoffs last year and suddenly he's found the range he's been missing his whole career ? Pffbbbbt.

I agree that he's a great defender, and that he's being poorly utilized on a rockets team that is hamstrung by the contracts of Yao and Mcgrady and stuck without a primary playmaker. Brooks is nice and Landry is a good role player, but they're just too short to make a push with what they have.

He'd be a #3 in Houston if they acquired or signed a focal point for the offense.....right now he's essentially #2....but I think he's best served as a 4-5th type option like he was in LA. Wide open looks from range or a defender trying to help off on another player and providing him a path to the basket to cut.



No, what you originally wrote in no way reflects what you wrote here. I am not going to call this stupid either. I strongly disagree as Moon cannot move laterly on defense and Ariza can drain open 3's, as shared by well, most GMs in the league, the Zen master, etc.

If you didn't want to blow the money on him so be it. W/ his age and potential to get better at his role I would have no problem blowing Dan Gilbert's money.

Other then that, you make absurd metaphors constantly then come back w/ the "but I meant this"

Just stop doing it if you want to stop being called stupid.


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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:31 pm

Papa Cass wrote:The Suns are completely FUBAR-ing their reputation within NBA player circles by handling Amare like this. If you're an NBA star, how likely is it that you'd want to play for the Suns after this, warm weather in February aside?


The Suns fubared their reputation when they started peddling their players and picks as though it were a yard sale. IIRC, I predicted that the Suns would be a surprise lottery team this year. Nash's fountain of youth looks like it will delay that timeline a bit, but PHX is headed for a long, wandering walk in the desert, and it all starts and ends with Tightwad Sarver.

Someday, maybe some of these idiots will realize that if you're not willing to buy the tank of gas, then maybe you shouldn't get the Ferrari in the first place.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:35 pm

As for Ariza he'd be better in Cleveland, LA, or a Yao-filled Houston than he is in his current situation. Still think that Houston spent their money more wisely on him than if they'd brought back Artest.


Really, Ariza over Artest? are we talking this year or for the next 3-4? If it's the latter, I agree....but Artest was an absolute monster for them in the playoffs last year. He and brooks together had that team performing far over it's head.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:37 pm

DiminishingSkills wrote:
Papa Cass wrote:The Suns are completely FUBAR-ing their reputation within NBA player circles by handling Amare like this. If you're an NBA star, how likely is it that you'd want to play for the Suns after this, warm weather in February aside?


The Suns fubared their reputation when they started peddling their players and picks as though it were a yard sale. IIRC, I predicted that the Suns would be a surprise lottery team this year. Nash's fountain of youth looks like it will delay that timeline a bit, but PHX is headed for a long, wandering walk in the desert, and it all starts and ends with Tightwad Sarver.

Someday, maybe some of these idiots will realize that if you're not willing to buy the tank of gas, then maybe you shouldn't get the Ferrari in the first place.



Nash has to be kicking himself for showing loyalty to an organization that gave us the great Kurt Thomas & two 1st's for a conditional 2nd trade.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:Phoenix is an absolute fucking disaster of a front office. The way they handled the Joe Johnson situation, coaching situation, etc.....horrific. It's amazing they've stayed competitive with the mistakes they've made.

Phoenix's FO is a disaster if you don't know what their MO is. Considering word from their owner is to keep payroll down as much as possible, they do an excellent job. Not every owner is Dan Gilbert.

rk wrote:That's not going to happen but for the record if the Suns goal was to win in the future rather than be cheap and hope to win it's not a bad option. Amare is primed for a S&T in the offseason where the Suns should be able to get more than a Hickson level developmental player.

Right, but like you know that isn't the Suns goal. It is to make money. Do that by keeping costs down and wins up, which they do. Suns aren't interested in an S&T with Amare because that means they are taking back money they have to pay out. They save the most by trading him now.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:44 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:
As for Ariza he'd be better in Cleveland, LA, or a Yao-filled Houston than he is in his current situation. Still think that Houston spent their money more wisely on him than if they'd brought back Artest.


Really, Ariza over Artest? are we talking this year or for the next 3-4? If it's the latter, I agree....but Artest was an absolute monster for them in the playoffs last year. He and brooks together had that team performing far over it's head.

Artest was a monster until he cost them the Lakers series. They should have won, and if he hadn't gone headcase on the offensive end they would have.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:47 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Nash has to be kicking himself for showing loyalty to an organization that gave us the great Kurt Thomas & two 1st's for a conditional 2nd trade.


Next year at this time, I expect that "the Suns are looking to deal Steve Nash as they continue their rebuilding effort" will appear in a few hundred trade deadline articles. What has happened to that team is a shame. Didn't have to be that way.

I truly hope that the next CBA gets us closer to having trades that are done purely for basketball reasons, rather than clearing cap room or getting under whatever financial ceiling. As a Cavs fan, I love that they have an owner who is willing to spend, and who is willing to bend teams over backwards to get Mo/Shaq/possibly Amare or Antawn. As a basketball fan, those deals kind of suck. Making trades for financial reasons is not a new phenomenon in sports -- if it were, then Babe Ruth would have played his career in Boston -- but it seems more overt now than ever.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:50 pm

Can someone more astute than I am in regard to the financial side of things tell me what the value of Amar'e is if he has no interest in re-signing here. Sign and trade is still a very viable asset, no?

That'd make me feel a lot better about him coming here.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Hi Oktane » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:51 pm

DiminishingSkills wrote:I truly hope that the next CBA gets us closer to having trades that are done purely for basketball reasons, rather than clearing cap room or getting under whatever financial ceiling. As a Cavs fan, I love that they have an owner who is willing to spend, and who is willing to bend teams over backwards to get Mo/Shaq/possibly Amare or Antawn. As a basketball fan, those deals kind of suck. Making trades for financial reasons is not a new phenomenon in sports -- if it were, then Babe Ruth would have played his career in Boston -- but it seems more overt now than ever.


Teams wouldn't have the cap room to clear if they hadn't made poor investments to begin with.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:54 pm

Peeker643 wrote:Can someone more astute than I am in regard to the financial side of things tell me what the value of Amar'e is if he has no interest in re-signing here. Sign and trade is still a very viable asset, no?

That'd make me feel a lot better about him coming here.



Cavs will own his Bird Rights so they'd be the only team that can give him a (full) max contract, which means an extra year and higher yearly escalators. Similar to the reasons Lebron should stay in Cleveland. In the best interests of Amare it would be to sign the max with the Cavs then get traded (if he didn't want to stay).

Long story short: Amare is still a viable asset even if he doesn't want to stay in Cleveland.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:59 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Phoenix is an absolute fucking disaster of a front office. The way they handled the Joe Johnson situation, coaching situation, etc.....horrific. It's amazing they've stayed competitive with the mistakes they've made.


Phoenix's FO is a disaster if you don't know what their MO is. Considering word from their owner is to keep payroll down as much as possible, they do an excellent job. Not every owner is Dan Gilbert.


If Sarver owned the Timberwolves or Bucks, I could see more sense in the frugal approach. But he owns the Suns. A team in a desirable location with a long history of relative success and some legit star power on the roster. Even in this economy, the revenue streams have to be there. There are reasons to spend money on that team. It has a lot going for it.

All of which makes the financial and competitive erosion of that team absolutely head-smacking. When is the last time the Suns were really, truly awful? They've always been a competitive playoff team, as far back as I can remember and I'm 30.

Now, it looks like the Suns are on the fast track to becoming one of the league's dregs.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:01 pm

Windhorst tweet.

Noon chat at Cleveland.com: http://bit.ly/bRLWz4 I assume we'll be talking about the Cavs rotation & LeBron's shot selection, no?
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:02 pm

Papa Cass wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:Phoenix is an absolute fucking disaster of a front office. The way they handled the Joe Johnson situation, coaching situation, etc.....horrific. It's amazing they've stayed competitive with the mistakes they've made.


Phoenix's FO is a disaster if you don't know what their MO is. Considering word from their owner is to keep payroll down as much as possible, they do an excellent job. Not every owner is Dan Gilbert.


If Sarver owned the Timberwolves or Bucks, I could see more sense in the frugal approach. But he owns the Suns. A team in a desirable location with a long history of relative success and some legit star power on the roster. Even in this economy, the revenue streams have to be there. There are reasons to spend money on that team. It has a lot going for it.

All of which makes the financial and competitive erosion of that team absolutely head-smacking. When is the last time the Suns were really, truly awful? They've always been a competitive playoff team, as far back as I can remember and I'm 30.

Now, it looks like the Suns are on the fast track to becoming one of the league's dregs.

Oh, I don't disagree that I would hate it if Sarver owned the Cavs. But that team has been competitive, and sometimes amongst the elites, during that run. And without a transcendent player (Nash doesn't count).
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:07 pm

Hi Oktane wrote:Teams wouldn't have the cap room to clear if they hadn't made poor investments to begin with.


Agree to a point, in a general "sleep in the bed you made" sense. But it's not good for the game to have, say, Washington in the tank for six years because they stupidly (which was true in real time, and has become only more so as time has progressed) gave Arenas $102 kabillion. The punishment really doesn't fit the crime. I'm not sure the pendulum needs to (or will) swing all the way to NFL-style year-to-year contracts, but there has to be a way for teams to recover when circumstances make a seemingly good deal turn terrible. (And there's some incentive for the players to get on board with that approach, as the money Agent Zero steals from the Wiz is money that can't be paid to other, more deserving players -- particularly true if the league moves towards a hard cap.)
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:17 pm

Windhorst: "I think it's about 90% that we end up with Amar'e or Jamison by tomorrow"
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