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Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby twdelaney34 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:08 pm

Gradysmanldy wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:We sure that is legitimate? I'm shocked an NBA player can't spell, "Average" ....wtf.


Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

Please.

Have you ever looked at a pro athlete's twitter feed?

I refuse to follow all of them because I lose brain cells by the second.

And yeah, it is a verified account:

http://twitter.com/amareisreal


Yes, i'm being sarcastic. The rest of the fead is no better....nor do I really give a shet if he gets 20/10.



I am shocked a message board poster (who expressed his shock at an NBA player misspelling "average") misspelled "feed."
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JoJo White » Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:45 pm

JA Adande comes around.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... ck-up-stat

Can Amare + Shaq Work? The Stats back up STAT

By J.A. Adande

The tweet of the day goes to Amare Stoudemire, who got so frustrated at the misconceptions he felt compelled to write “I play very well with Shaq…You guys can stop saying we don’t play well together.”

Bad info flows like an avalanche before the trade deadline, and somehow the gathering stream of snow scooped up the notion that Amare Stoudemire and Shaquille O’Neal couldn’t co-exist in Phoenix, so they wouldn’t work together if Stoudemire gets traded to Cleveland.

A little revision is in order. It’s not that Stoudemire couldn’t play well next to O’Neal; he didn’t play as well next to O’Neal under Terry Porter’s system.

Stoudemire did just fine with Shaq in the house while the Suns were running Mike D’Antoni’s offense. Since Shaq didn’t start playing for the Suns until the first game after the All-Star break in 2008 it’s very easy to look at life with and without the Diesel. Before the break Stoudemire averaged 23.2 points on 59% shooting. After the break, playing alongside O’Neal, Stoudemire upped his scoring average to 28 points per game while maintaining that 59% field goal percentage.

It’s not as if there was a long adjustment period. In his first game with Shaq, Stoudemire was so out of whack, so befuddled by the big man’s presence that he scored 37 points and grabbed 15 rebounds in a 130-124 loss to the Lakers. In the next game, against the Celtics, Stoudemire had 28 points while attempting 23 field goals to O’Neal’s five, while Shaq did the heavy lifting on the boards, with 14 rebounds to Stoudemire’s six.

The next season Porter took over and made establishing O’Neal in the low post a priority. It altered Steve Nash’s game, altered Stoudemire’s scoring, and knocked the franchise so far off-kilter that they abandoned the experiment, ditched Porter at the All-Star break, moved Alvin Gentry down the bench and reinstated Seven Seconds or Less. Stoudemire’s scoring had dropped to 21 points per game before the coaching change. But once Gentry took off the restrictor plates on the Suns’ offense Stoudemire zoomed back to top speed. He scored 23 points in 20 minutes as the Suns demolished the Clippers 140-100. Then he went for 42 points as the Suns scored 142 against the Clippers the very next night.

That was also the game in which he injured his eye, which shut him down for the rest of the season. The Suns traded O’Neal over the summer, so for now that’s the last evidence we have of their ability to co-exist. I’d say they get along nicely.

There’s risk involved for the Cavs in acquiring Stoudemire. They would be altering the chemistry of a team that produced the best record in the league so far, a group that’s riding a 13-game winning streak. Stoudemire is not a strong individual defender or defensive rebounder. But the notion that O’Neal's mere presence on the court hinders Stoudemire is erroneous. If anything, it would be even less of an issue in Cleveland since O’Neal isn’t a focal point of the offense there.

Stoudemire tweet was dead right … it just takes a little more than 140 characters to explain why.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby dmiles » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:19 pm

In an effort to reduce online addiction, I have made a personal commitment that I will not go to RCF for trade updates. Hopefully this thread stays fairly on-track.

As I imagine the initial reports about Amare saying no, and Windy saying it's BS I can't imagine how many pages that took up. In fairness I only made this commitment 5 minutes ago, as I found myself wasting too much time this afternoon. Hopefully I can kill the addiction.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JoJo White » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:33 pm

http://twitter.com/chrismannixsi

# I'm learning how bad Cavs fans want Amare tonight. I agree with it. STAT doesn't have the range of Jamison, but he has a nice 15-footer. 20 minutes ago from web

# Troy Murphy is on the bottom of the Cavs option list. RT @boss2356 are the pacers going to be able to dump any salary? 31 minutes ago from web

# To answer all STAT/Cavs: my read is that it's more likely than not. Most execs bracing for the deal to go down well before the deadline. 37 minutes ago from web

# I agree with @PDcavsinsider, STAT deal to Cavs, if it gets done, will likely happen before Tuesday's games. 43 minutes ago from web
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:34 pm

dmiles wrote:In an effort to reduce online addiction, I have made a personal commitment that I will not go to RCF for trade updates. Hopefully this thread stays fairly on-track.

As I imagine the initial reports about Amare saying no, and Windy saying it's BS I can't imagine how many pages that took up. In fairness I only made this commitment 5 minutes ago, as I found myself wasting too much time this afternoon. Hopefully I can kill the addiction.


To be honest you are wasting time searching RCF for updates. Sifting through all of that crap is just so time consuming, we typically have everything as quickly if not quicker than them.

All they have is W&G and he hasn't said anything informative since talking about Brown and the Orlando game.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:58 pm

FWIW saw this linked from Mannix' twitter.
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?nam ... Stoudemire
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?nam ... %20Jamison

Check out the percentages. Amare better than Jamison everywhere except 3s (and he is over 45% for all 4 years shown from 16-23 ft).
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JoJo White » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:01 am

Reading between the lines, is Amare desitined to South Beach this summer? Not saying that's a reason not to do the deal and rent him for 4 months, but it just seems that's where he eventually wants to be and the Heat certainly have the cap space to accomodate his demands.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:31 am

JoJo White wrote:Reading between the lines, is Amare desitined to South Beach this summer? Not saying that's a reason not to do the deal and rent him for 4 months, but it just seems that's where he eventually wants to be and the Heat certainly have the cap space to accomodate his demands.


Cavs would still hold Amare's Bird rights, so they could still offer him the most money and highest annual raises. As long as Dan Gilbert is willing to fork it over and stay tens of millions into the luxury tax, the Cavs would be where the money is for Amare, no matter how much cap space Miami clears.

That's the major advantage of trading for Amare now -- getting his Bird rights in advance of free agency.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:41 am

Chris_Broussard: Cavs' second-choices if don't get Stoudemire - Jamison, Maggette, Troy Murphy

WojYahooNBA: GM's and agents expect flurry of activity Tuesday. Everyone was holding deck close today, including PHX and Cavs. Best offers are on way.

Windy and Mannix from SI also predicted that Amare moves before the Suns game tomorrow.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:45 am

STEIN_LINE_HQ: Just filed to ESPN.com: Miami working H-A-R-D to recruit third team to trump Cleveland in Amare Sweepstakes. Link forthcoming. Also ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4917483

The Miami Heat have intensified their efforts to trump Cleveland in the chase for Phoenix Suns forward Amare Stoudemire, sources close to the situation said Monday.

The Heat emerged from the All-Star break even more determined than they were before to find a third team to help them broker an Amare deal before Thursday's 3 p.m. deadline.

Miami is "coming hard" after Stoudemire, one source said.

Although the Heat have first-round picks available to sweeten any Stoudemire deal -- with the Suns hoping to come away with at least one first-rounder if they decide to trade Stoudemire this week -- sources say Phoenix has no interest in taking back Jermaine O'Neal's hefty expiring contract because, at $23 million, it requires more players to be worked into the deal than the Suns are comfortable with.

Yet one source insisted Monday night that the Suns have not ruled out taking back forward Michael Beasley as part of a Stoudemire deal. The Heat -- after carefully preserving their salary-cap space for months -- are suddenly pushing hard to make a big trade splash now if possible instead of waiting for free agency in July and gambling on the idea that they can lure a marquee name such as LeBron James or Chris Bosh to South Beach to flank Dwyane Wade.

The Cavaliers are prepared to send Zydrunas Ilgauskas' expiring contract, young power forward J.J. Hickson and perhaps draft considerations to the Suns for Stoudemire, who appeared to give Cleveland further motivation to make that bold move when he used his Twitter feed Monday night to scoff at speculation that he and Cavs center Shaquille O'Neal can't co-exist.

"You guys can stop saying we don't play well together," Stoudemire tweeted.

A pick from the perennially contending Cavs obviously wouldn't be as enticing as a Miami draft pick, but sources say that Cleveland also continues to chase longtime target Antawn Jamison in case Miami assembles a better deal for Stoudemire. It likewise remains to be seen whether Philadelphia decides to make Andre Iguodala available after making it clear before the All-Star break that they are not prepared to surrender Iguodala in a Stoudemire deal.

"They're the wild card," one source said of the Sixers.

The Cavs resume play Thursday at home against Denver riding a 13-game win streak, but they still hope to come away with a big player by week's end. While Stoudemire leads their list, the Cavs have also been mentioned in relation to Washington's Jamison and Indiana's Troy Murphy. Sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard on Monday that the Cavs are also in talks with the Warriors about Corey Maggette.

The Suns, meanwhile, appear intent on finally finding a workable trade for Stoudemire before the deadline -- even though the sides did briefly discuss a contract extension during All-Star Weekend in Dallas -- after shopping him heavily at last season's trading deadline as well. Stoudemire is averaging 21.2 points and 8.6 rebounds this season and started at center for the West in Sunday's All-Star Game.


STEIN_LINE_HQ: @chris_broussard just filed an extensive piece on Cleveland adding Corey Maggette to its Amare fallback list. Another link forthcoming

Broussard link has not posted yet.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:51 am

twdelaney34 wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
Gradysmanldy wrote:We sure that is legitimate? I'm shocked an NBA player can't spell, "Average" ....wtf.


Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

Please.

Have you ever looked at a pro athlete's twitter feed?

I refuse to follow all of them because I lose brain cells by the second.

And yeah, it is a verified account:

http://twitter.com/amareisreal


Yes, i'm being sarcastic. The rest of the fead is no better....nor do I really give a shet if he gets 20/10.



I am shocked a message board poster (who expressed his shock at an NBA player misspelling "average") misspelled "feed."


And to make the joke clear, I spelled "shit" wrong to eliminate confusion about being sarcastic. Oiy.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JoJo White » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:58 am

Wade must be putting a ton of pressure on the Miami FO to get something done or else he's outta there.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:13 am

JoJo White wrote:Wade must be putting a ton of pressure on the Miami FO to get something done or else he's outta there.


Wade was pissed this past off-season.

Miami has been *hoping* to lure a big name FA next year to settle him down, but if we get Amare it appears they are afraid he won't hit the market. Leaving them staring at a bunch of superstars that are only 50% likely to even leave their teams.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby TouchEmAllTime » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:21 am

Maybe more smoke behind the Maggette fire:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4917507
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Ziner » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:43 am

Miami's desperateness is really starting to make me nervous. Just get it done Danny, I need to do work tomorrow
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby metalhead9x9 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:05 am

TouchEmAllTime wrote:Maybe more smoke behind the Maggette fire:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4917507


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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby dmiles » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:27 am

If Miami beats us to the punch, the only silver lining is that they would be out of the Lebron sweepstakes. I assume even with Bird rights there isn't anything left to get Lebron, especially with the specter of a salary contraction coming.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:02 am

This is 2007-2008 redux....no way i'm getting anything done at work until deadline passes.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:42 am

Ziner wrote:Miami's desperateness is really starting to make me nervous. Just get it done Danny, I need to do work tomorrow


If Miami or Philly puts together a better offer, they put together a better offer. There's not much Ferry can do, unless he wants to try and get a third team involved, which is Miami's problem right now. That certainly won't get a deal done sooner.

I still think the Cavs' offer is what gets the Suns to bite. It's cut-and-dried. With Philly and Miami, there are all these variables and moving parts and ideal situations that may or may not be realized.

But the Suns will hold out as long as they can to stoke the bidding fire.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:53 am

Papa Cass wrote:
Ziner wrote:Miami's desperateness is really starting to make me nervous. Just get it done Danny, I need to do work tomorrow


If Miami or Philly puts together a better offer, they put together a better offer .


See I'm good with this, the only thing I am really worried about is "backup plan"...I mean, the team knows his condition best, but we should be getting Powe here soon, no?

For me it would be Amare or stand pat. No reason at all to fuck ourselves by taking on Murphy, Maggett, or Antione. JMO.

Please no backup deal. If the heat or philly get amare, fuck it, we press on with the addition of Powe.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby fundamentals » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:11 am

I heard Delonte West is going to be singing about the possible acquistion of Stoudemire:
"When the Moon hits the sky like a big pizza pie, that's Amare"
"When LeBron goes to the rack, he ain't passing to Shaq, that's Amare" :hide:

If the Cavaliers acquire Stoudemire and J Rich, it's over, get the riot gear ready. :woot:
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"We had a great time together."
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:42 am

JCoz wrote:
See I'm good with this, the only thing I am really worried about is "backup plan"...I mean, the team knows his condition best, but we should be getting Powe here soon, no?

For me it would be Amare or stand pat. No reason at all to fuck ourselves by taking on Murphy, Maggett, or Antione. JMO.

Please no backup deal. If the heat or philly get amare, fuck it, we press on with the addition of Powe.


As has been said in some other threads and by Windy himself, don't expect Powe to make an impact this year. Next year, yes, but people hoping to see the Leon Powe of the past few years will be dissappointed. Guy may see 5, maybe 10 minutes a night, max. He may surprise us all but I wouldn't hold your breath. Which makes a back up plan of a Jamison trade more likely than not.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:47 am

Larvell Blanks wrote:
JCoz wrote:
See I'm good with this, the only thing I am really worried about is "backup plan"...I mean, the team knows his condition best, but we should be getting Powe here soon, no?

For me it would be Amare or stand pat. No reason at all to fuck ourselves by taking on Murphy, Maggett, or Antione. JMO.

Please no backup deal. If the heat or philly get amare, fuck it, we press on with the addition of Powe.


As has been said in some other threads and by Windy himself, don't expect Powe to make an impact this year. Next year, yes, but people hoping to see the Leon Powe of the past few years will be dissappointed. Guy may see 5, maybe 10 minutes a night, max. He may surprise us all but I wouldn't hold your breath. Which makes a back up plan of a Jamison trade more likely than not.


Guess I missed that...been pretty busy at work lately.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:47 am

Larvell Blanks wrote:
JCoz wrote:
See I'm good with this, the only thing I am really worried about is "backup plan"...I mean, the team knows his condition best, but we should be getting Powe here soon, no?

For me it would be Amare or stand pat. No reason at all to fuck ourselves by taking on Murphy, Maggett, or Antione. JMO.

Please no backup deal. If the heat or philly get amare, fuck it, we press on with the addition of Powe.


As has been said in some other threads and by Windy himself, don't expect Powe to make an impact this year. Next year, yes, but people hoping to see the Leon Powe of the past few years will be dissappointed. Guy may see 5, maybe 10 minutes a night, max. He may surprise us all but I wouldn't hold your breath. Which makes a back up plan of a Jamison trade more likely than not.


This is the concern: that we're so collectively hyped on the idea of an Amare trade, if that doesn't happen, everything else will be a disappointment. People will actually be complaining about a Jamo or Murphy deal, whereas last week at this time, those guys were one and two on just about everyone's list.

Under no circumstances is this an Amare-or-bust proposal. There is absolutely no need to make a kamikaze run at Amare when there are other, viable options out there that can definitely improve this team for the stretch run and postseason.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:52 am

Papa Cass wrote:
Larvell Blanks wrote:
JCoz wrote:
See I'm good with this, the only thing I am really worried about is "backup plan"...I mean, the team knows his condition best, but we should be getting Powe here soon, no?

For me it would be Amare or stand pat. No reason at all to fuck ourselves by taking on Murphy, Maggett, or Antione. JMO.

Please no backup deal. If the heat or philly get amare, fuck it, we press on with the addition of Powe.


As has been said in some other threads and by Windy himself, don't expect Powe to make an impact this year. Next year, yes, but people hoping to see the Leon Powe of the past few years will be dissappointed. Guy may see 5, maybe 10 minutes a night, max. He may surprise us all but I wouldn't hold your breath. Which makes a back up plan of a Jamison trade more likely than not.


This is the concern: that we're so collectively hyped on the idea of an Amare trade, if that doesn't happen, everything else will be a disappointment. People will actually be complaining about a Jamo or Murphy deal, whereas last week at this time, those guys were one and two on just about everyone's list.

Under no circumstances is this an Amare-or-bust proposal. There is absolutely no need to make a kamikaze run at Amare when there are other, viable options out there that can definitely improve this team for the stretch run and postseason.


I'm not saying make a kamikaze run at him, I just feel like Amare is the only one where the risk/reward/price ratio is in the right area for the Cavs.

I mean, I wouldn't be all that dissapointed with standing pat.

I don't see any other talked about addition being a great deal for the Cavs.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:59 am

Literally dunno what to think at this point. Too much subtrefuge.

But unlike trade deadlines of seasons' past, here is my personal pledge: no meltdowns unless we sell the farm for Troy Drop Kick.

To get Amar'e, they hav eto have resonable assurrances that he and Bron will re-up together and be the bedrock of the future. It is time for both to stop being coy and commit. They don't have to do it in public, but they do have to do it to Ferry and not pull a CiCi Boozer.

Amar'e as a rental doesn't work for me. That is not where this franchise is, unless Bron has indicated that he is 100% out of here. Move onto Jamo in that case or stand pat and keep JJ .

If they don't get the deal done for Amar'e, and I asume that throwing in our 1st rounder isn't a deal breaker and Ferry would do that if needed, then I have to believe it is because they don't see an extension forthcoming. If Amar'e will come and is open to an extension, it is time for Bron and the Horsemen to stop the kabuki dance. He will have everything he ever asked for; huge worldwide endirsements, we'll pay him more than anyone else can or will, and a championship contender in place for years alongside another one of the top 10 players in the Association. It's "call" time. If Amar'e is on the table, and Bron balks without indicating he's staying and working Amar'e hard to do the same, he's essentailly Jim Thome in my book.

It ain't on Dan if this deal isn't done. It is either on Bron or Amar'e AFAIC, unless Miami just whips out a deal of all deals that obviously trumps ours.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:05 am

I don't see any other talked about addition being a great deal for the Cavs.



Really? A deal for any player besides Amare would probably only require Z's expiring contract. At which point he'd be bought out and return after 30 days. So gaining another player, for absolutely nothing except 30 Z-less days, is not a great deal for the Cavs?
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:19 am

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
I don't see any other talked about addition being a great deal for the Cavs.



Really? A deal for any player besides Amare would probably only require Z's expiring contract. At which point he'd be bought out and return after 30 days. So gaining another player, for absolutely nothing except 30 Z-less days, is not a great deal for the Cavs?


Depends on the terms of the other players contract. Sure lots of things might sound great if you dont have to think about next year or beyond.....

Jameson would be the one closest IMO, but he's also got the worst contract..

Like I said, its not that I think no one could help us be a better team, its the risk/reward/price both long and short term that concerns me.

EDIT: BTW, I do understand the "don't let contracts expire" strategy, however I'm not sure how much longer that will be a viable option with the NBA labor talks looming....
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:27 am

JCoz wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
I don't see any other talked about addition being a great deal for the Cavs.



Really? A deal for any player besides Amare would probably only require Z's expiring contract. At which point he'd be bought out and return after 30 days. So gaining another player, for absolutely nothing except 30 Z-less days, is not a great deal for the Cavs?


Depends on the terms of the other players contract. Sure lots of things might sound great if you dont have to think about next year or beyond.....

Jameson would be the one closest IMO, but he's also got the worst contract..

Like I said, its not that I think no one could help us be a better team, its the risk/reward/price both long and short term that concerns me.



Why? You're not paying the contracts. Gilbert's got deep pockets and they're only gonna get deeper the next few years once the casinos come to fruition. Cavs already have the highest payroll in the league and have added guys each of the past 3 years through trades and FA so the high payroll isn't hamstringing them.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:36 am

JB wrote:Literally dunno what to think at this point. Too much subtrefuge.

But unlike trade deadlines of seasons' past, here is my personal pledge: no meltdowns unless we sell the farm for Troy Drop Kick.

To get Amar'e, they hav eto have resonable assurrances that he and Bron will re-up together and be the bedrock of the future. It is time for both to stop being coy and commit. They don't have to do it in public, but they do have to do it to Ferry and not pull a CiCi Boozer.

Amar'e as a rental doesn't work for me. That is not where this franchise is, unless Bron has indicated that he is 100% out of here. Move onto Jamo in that case or stand pat and keep JJ .

If they don't get the deal done for Amar'e, and I asume that throwing in our 1st rounder isn't a deal breaker and Ferry would do that if needed, then I have to believe it is because they don't see an extension forthcoming. If Amar'e will come and is open to an extension, it is time for Bron and the Horsemen to stop the kabuki dance. He will have everything he ever asked for; huge worldwide endirsements, we'll pay him more than anyone else can or will, and a championship contender in place for years alongside another one of the top 10 players in the Association. It's "call" time. If Amar'e is on the table, and Bron balks without indicating he's staying and working Amar'e hard to do the same, he's essentailly Jim Thome in my book.

It ain't on Dan if this deal isn't done. It is either on Bron or Amar'e AFAIC, unless Miami just whips out a deal of all deals that obviously trumps ours.


I might need a media blackout until Friday. This whole thing is making me bi-polar.

I agree with all of this if 'the farm' is Hickson where you're referring to Murphy.

Love to have Amare if he's down for three years or so. But not if he's using Cleveland as a layover for Miami or elsewhere.

This team is strong enough as it is. Do you attempt to get better? Yes. But not just for the next three months.

I see LBJ staying as about 85%-90%. If Amare 'commits' to 3 years or so I see that percentage going up.
If they deal Hickson and Stoudemire bolts in July and Hickson is in Phoenix (with Shaq's status in doubt) I can see that percentage going down.

And I don't want it going down.

If they trade Z for Murphy (and even if they include a pick) for Murphy I see the percentage chance of LBJ staying remianing where it is or increasing slightly.

Just my opinion. It could change in ten minutes as I get crazier.

All said, what's exciting and scary at the same time is the next 48 hours or so can have a profound effect on the future of this franchise.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:38 am

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
JCoz wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
I don't see any other talked about addition being a great deal for the Cavs.



Really? A deal for any player besides Amare would probably only require Z's expiring contract. At which point he'd be bought out and return after 30 days. So gaining another player, for absolutely nothing except 30 Z-less days, is not a great deal for the Cavs?


Depends on the terms of the other players contract. Sure lots of things might sound great if you dont have to think about next year or beyond.....

Jameson would be the one closest IMO, but he's also got the worst contract..

Like I said, its not that I think no one could help us be a better team, its the risk/reward/price both long and short term that concerns me.



Why? You're not paying the contracts. Gilbert's got deep pockets and they're only gonna get deeper the next few years once the casinos come to fruition. Cavs already have the highest payroll in the league and have added guys each of the past 3 years through trades and FA so the high payroll isn't hamstringing them.


Again, its one thing if its for Amare, another if its for Meggett or Murphy or even Jamo to a certain extent....

How would these moves look under a hard cap scenario?

Look, I'm not saying that They should play thier hand fearfully, just thoughtfully.

BTW, NONE of those other moves involve ONLY Z, so that needs to be the understanding here. You can start with Z, but no reports have it stopping there.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:48 am

BTW, NONE of those other moves involve ONLY Z, so that needs to be the understanding here. You can start with Z, but no reports have it stopping there.



By Z only I meant Z without JJ Hickson. It's apparent that the Cavs will only trade Hickson for Amare. If they'd included him in any other trade, the deal would have been done long ago. Of course there might have to be some cash/picks/players other than JJ to make a trade work (Darnell Jackson or Danny Green). All those others things have minimal value that will have no bearing on the present or future of the Cavs.


The only tradeable assets the Cavs have are Z, Wally, and Hickson. If you can get Jamo or Murphy for only Z (knowing that there's a very good chance Z will be back in 30) I don't see any way you don't do it. It's adding a piece for absolutely nothing except paying more money that the owner is already willing to pay.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:52 am

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
BTW, NONE of those other moves involve ONLY Z, so that needs to be the understanding here. You can start with Z, but no reports have it stopping there.



By Z only I meant Z without JJ Hickson. It's apparent that the Cavs will only trade Hickson for Amare. If they'd included him in any other trade, the deal would have been done long ago. Of course there might have to be some cash/picks/players other than JJ to make a trade work (Darnell Jackson or Danny Green). All those others things have minimal value that will have no bearing on the present or future of the Cavs.


I know that is what you meant.....show me a article/tweet/blog, anything that says we could even get Murphy for Z?

Cause I haven't seen that.

I see articles that say z/jj are not even enough for Indiana, which is ridiculous, but the point is I see no Z for x player deals floating around right now.....

I see Z/JJ + for x player all over.....
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:56 am

JCoz wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
BTW, NONE of those other moves involve ONLY Z, so that needs to be the understanding here. You can start with Z, but no reports have it stopping there.



By Z only I meant Z without JJ Hickson. It's apparent that the Cavs will only trade Hickson for Amare. If they'd included him in any other trade, the deal would have been done long ago. Of course there might have to be some cash/picks/players other than JJ to make a trade work (Darnell Jackson or Danny Green). All those others things have minimal value that will have no bearing on the present or future of the Cavs.


I know that is what you meant.....show me a article/tweet/blog, anything that says we could even get Murphy for Z?

Cause I haven't seen that.

I see articles that say z/jj are not even enough for Indiana, which is ridiculous, but the point is I see no Z for x player deals floating around right now.....

I see Z/JJ + for x player all over.....


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4917507

It is not clear whether the Cavaliers' second-choice is Jamison or Maggette. The discussions with Golden State have centered around Cleveland sending Ilgauskas and his $11.5 million expiring contract to the Warriors for Maggette. Other players, perhaps Cleveland's Danny Green and Golden State's Devean George, would have to be added to make the deal work financially.


Teams right now are wanting salary relief. They're posturing to get as much as possible but in the end, know that taking expiring contracts will help them the most.

For the record: I don't want anything to do with Maggette.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:57 am

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
BTW, NONE of those other moves involve ONLY Z, so that needs to be the understanding here. You can start with Z, but no reports have it stopping there.



The only tradeable assets the Cavs have are Z, Wally, and Hickson.


I would say that West, Green, Picks, and Cash considerations should be added to that list, and I have seen them all be part of the rumors the last couple weeks....
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:58 am

JCoz wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
BTW, NONE of those other moves involve ONLY Z, so that needs to be the understanding here. You can start with Z, but no reports have it stopping there.



The only tradeable assets the Cavs have are Z, Wally, and Hickson.


I would say that West, Green, Picks, and Cash considerations should be added to that list, and I have seen them all be part of the rumors the last couple weeks....



Those aren't assets, those are fillers. Every team has a Danny Green at the end of the bench or picks or cash to throw in a trade. And I don't see West being traded because he's still got 3 years on his contract and he's had off-the-court issues.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:02 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
JCoz wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
BTW, NONE of those other moves involve ONLY Z, so that needs to be the understanding here. You can start with Z, but no reports have it stopping there.



By Z only I meant Z without JJ Hickson. It's apparent that the Cavs will only trade Hickson for Amare. If they'd included him in any other trade, the deal would have been done long ago. Of course there might have to be some cash/picks/players other than JJ to make a trade work (Darnell Jackson or Danny Green). All those others things have minimal value that will have no bearing on the present or future of the Cavs.


I know that is what you meant.....show me a article/tweet/blog, anything that says we could even get Murphy for Z?

Cause I haven't seen that.

I see articles that say z/jj are not even enough for Indiana, which is ridiculous, but the point is I see no Z for x player deals floating around right now.....

I see Z/JJ + for x player all over.....


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4917507

It is not clear whether the Cavaliers' second-choice is Jamison or Maggette. The discussions with Golden State have centered around Cleveland sending Ilgauskas and his $11.5 million expiring contract to the Warriors for Maggette. Other players, perhaps Cleveland's Danny Green and Golden State's Devean George, would have to be added to make the deal work financially.


Teams right now are wanting salary relief. They're posturing to get as much as possible but in the end, know that taking expiring contracts will help them the most.

For the record: I don't want anything to do with Maggette.


That says centered around Z, would probably have to give up green and a draft pick to make it happen.

I agree with a Z for Murphy trade straight up, w/ Z coming back in 30.

I wouldn't add ANYTHING to that deal beside maybe a 2010 2nd rounder.

I want little to do with Jamesons contract and nothing to do with magettes.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:04 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
JCoz wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
BTW, NONE of those other moves involve ONLY Z, so that needs to be the understanding here. You can start with Z, but no reports have it stopping there.



The only tradeable assets the Cavs have are Z, Wally, and Hickson.


I would say that West, Green, Picks, and Cash considerations should be added to that list, and I have seen them all be part of the rumors the last couple weeks....



Those aren't assets, those are fillers. Every team has a Danny Green at the end of the bench or picks or cash to throw in a trade. And I don't see West being traded because he's still got 3 years on his contract and he's had off-the-court issues.


West is included because teams may see a way to get a "deal" on him with legal and medical issues there...but fair enough on the rest.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:05 pm

Again it says Green would be a throw-in to make salaries work and that the Cavs would receive Devean George who would take Green's spot at the end of the bench. Wouldn't effect the Cavs at all.


I can understand people ledging on throwing in JJ to acquire someone (this year and last year) but there is no way a 2nd round pick or Danny Green should stop any trade from being made.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:09 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Again it says Green would be a throw-in to make salaries work and that the Cavs would receive Devean George who would take Green's spot at the end of the bench. Wouldn't effect the Cavs at all.


I can understand people ledging on throwing in JJ to acquire someone (this year and last year) but there is no way a 2nd round pick or Danny Green should stop any trade from being made.


Not a 2nd rounder, which can be bought...but for a team in Indiana's position, fuck them. No reason to budge. They need that relief more than we need Murphy, IMO.

And I wouldn't be ledging over it, I'd just think it wasn't a very good deal.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:58 pm

This team cannot trade West unless it is for a bona-fide starting caliber 2.

So far we have not really been linked to one of those beyond Iggy's short time on the market.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:11 pm

I am very anti-any sentiment about trading West. I know there are legitimate concerns about his mental/emotional state, and some people are still clinging to the idea that we need to dump him before David Stern suspends him for 80 games or the Maryland DA succeeds in locking him up until sometime during the Chelsea Clinton administration.

Aside from the what-if freakout, he's been rock solid since late November, and even if he doesn't score like a legit starting two, he can knock down jumpers with range and he's a tough, versatile defender. Exactly what the Cavs need.

I don't care if it sounds cliche, he's one of those glue guys any championship team needs. Much like Andy, no one is going to fully replace his skill set if he goes.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:19 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
To be honest you are wasting time searching RCF for updates. Sifting through all of that crap is just so time consuming, we typically have everything as quickly if not quicker than them.

All they have is W&G and he hasn't said anything informative since talking about Brown and the Orlando game.


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Christ, I went over for a few minutes and there's an Amare Safari thread that's going on 389 (and counting) pages. Sifted through about 10 pages and it was nothing but rehashing old rumors, rehashing what the talking heads are saying on SC, etc. It was nice to see old buddies like Andrew(worthless) and cmstophe (always his optimistic 'self) adding their two cents.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:23 pm

Papa Cass wrote:I am very anti-any sentiment about trading West. I know there are legitimate concerns about his mental/emotional state, and some people are still clinging to the idea that we need to dump him before David Stern suspends him for 80 games or the Maryland DA succeeds in locking him up until sometime during the Chelsea Clinton administration.

Aside from the what-if freakout, he's been rock solid since late November, and even if he doesn't score like a legit starting two, he can knock down jumpers with range and he's a tough, versatile defender. Exactly what the Cavs need.

I don't care if it sounds cliche, he's one of those glue guys any championship team needs. Much like Andy, no one is going to fully replace his skill set if he goes.


I didn't really mean to start a string of Trade/don't trade west posts....

I mostly meant that those were the people/things mentioned during these trade rumors....nothing more, nothing less.

Was assuming that the reason West's name came up were the non-basketball related issues that make his value variable in the eye of the beholder.

I wasn't endorsing a West trade.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:23 pm

Papa Cass wrote:I am very anti-any sentiment about trading West. I know there are legitimate concerns about his mental/emotional state, and some people are still clinging to the idea that we need to dump him before David Stern suspends him for 80 games or the Maryland DA succeeds in locking him up until sometime during the Chelsea Clinton administration.

Aside from the what-if freakout, he's been rock solid since late November, and even if he doesn't score like a legit starting two, he can knock down jumpers with range and he's a tough, versatile defender. Exactly what the Cavs need.

I don't care if it sounds cliche, he's one of those glue guys any championship team needs. Much like Andy, no one is going to fully replace his skill set if he goes.



This.


And what else are you possibly going to get for him given what he's facing?


The only question is whethe this makes obtaining Jamo a higher priority if STAT falls through so you have more swing options
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:29 pm

JB wrote:
Papa Cass wrote:I am very anti-any sentiment about trading West. I know there are legitimate concerns about his mental/emotional state, and some people are still clinging to the idea that we need to dump him before David Stern suspends him for 80 games or the Maryland DA succeeds in locking him up until sometime during the Chelsea Clinton administration.

Aside from the what-if freakout, he's been rock solid since late November, and even if he doesn't score like a legit starting two, he can knock down jumpers with range and he's a tough, versatile defender. Exactly what the Cavs need.

I don't care if it sounds cliche, he's one of those glue guys any championship team needs. Much like Andy, no one is going to fully replace his skill set if he goes.



This.


And what else are you possibly going to get for him given what he's facing?


The only question is whethe this makes obtaining Jamo a higher priority if STAT falls through so you have more swing options


His name has not come up since the S-Jax packages (and we were demanding GS buy him out) and he has a 500K buyout after this year that makes him and expiring essentially.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:36 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:His name has not come up since the S-Jax packages (and we were demanding GS buy him out) and he has a 500K buyout after this year that makes him and expiring essentially.


Good to know, EO.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:37 pm

I know this has been brought up before, but what if this really is all an extremely convoluted red herring by Ferry, designed to eliminate Miami as a threat to lure LeBron?

Ferry sells his team's interest in Amare hard, and uses "leaks" to the media to start a buzz that the Cavs are closing in on Amare, to the point that a deal looks highly likely, if not imminent. That causes Pat Riley, who is under his own immense pressure to prevent his superstar from leaving, to go balls to the wall in putting together his own trade package.

Ferry just hangs back and continues to dangle Z and JJ at Phoenix, while Riley and his staff are on the phone to 25 other teams desperately trying to make the pieces fit. If Miami doesn't find the right formula, we get Amare. If Miami throws all its time and resources into landing Amare and they are able to trump the Cavs' offer, Ferry won't try to counter. He'll just move on, comfortable with the idea that Miami now has two max-contract players to re-sign this summer. LBJ wouldn't be going to South Beach unless he wants to sign for way below his market value, and do it as a less player-friendly CBA likely looms in the future.

It's actually a brilliant strategy, when you think about it.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:40 pm

Papa Cass wrote:I know this has been brought up before, but what if this really is all an extremely convoluted red herring by Ferry, designed to eliminate Miami as a threat to lure LeBron?

Ferry sells his team's interest in Amare hard, and uses "leaks" to the media to start a buzz that the Cavs are closing in on Amare, to the point that a deal looks highly likely, if not imminent. That causes Pat Riley, who is under his own immense pressure to prevent his superstar from leaving, to go balls to the wall in putting together his own trade package.

Ferry just hangs back and continues to dangle Z and JJ at Phoenix, while Riley and his staff are on the phone to 25 other teams desperately trying to make the pieces fit. If Miami doesn't find the right formula, we get Amare. If Miami throws all its time and resources into landing Amare and they are able to trump the Cavs' offer, Ferry won't try to counter. He'll just move on, comfortable with the idea that Miami now has two max-contract players to re-sign this summer. LBJ wouldn't be going to South Beach unless he wants to sign for way below his market value, and do it as a less player-friendly CBA likely looms in the future.

It's actually a brilliant strategy, when you think about it.



Why?

They could just let Amare walk and get LBJ.

I mean Amare going to Miami changes nothing. If you tell Wade you are going to hold off on reupping Amare (but keep his bird rights) while negotiating w/ LBJ you are in a stronger position if you are Miami, as you can still try to get LBJ and then if he spurns you you still own the bird right to Amare.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:45 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
Papa Cass wrote:I know this has been brought up before, but what if this really is all an extremely convoluted red herring by Ferry, designed to eliminate Miami as a threat to lure LeBron?

Ferry sells his team's interest in Amare hard, and uses "leaks" to the media to start a buzz that the Cavs are closing in on Amare, to the point that a deal looks highly likely, if not imminent. That causes Pat Riley, who is under his own immense pressure to prevent his superstar from leaving, to go balls to the wall in putting together his own trade package.

Ferry just hangs back and continues to dangle Z and JJ at Phoenix, while Riley and his staff are on the phone to 25 other teams desperately trying to make the pieces fit. If Miami doesn't find the right formula, we get Amare. If Miami throws all its time and resources into landing Amare and they are able to trump the Cavs' offer, Ferry won't try to counter. He'll just move on, comfortable with the idea that Miami now has two max-contract players to re-sign this summer. LBJ wouldn't be going to South Beach unless he wants to sign for way below his market value, and do it as a less player-friendly CBA likely looms in the future.

It's actually a brilliant strategy, when you think about it.



Why?

They could just let Amare walk and get LBJ.

I mean Amare going to Miami changes nothing. If you tell Wade you are going to hold off on reupping Amare (but keep his bird rights) while negotiating w/ LBJ you are in a stronger position if you are Miami, as you can still try to get LBJ and then if he spurns you you still own the bird right to Amare.


Amare still under contract until he chooses not to be, I would imagine that isn't exactly the same as both being UFA's.....

I don't think that scenario can play itself out, if Miami wants to dick around with an extension then Amare probably cuts bait long before Miami has time to dual negotiate the situation...
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