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Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:00 am

Peeks, problem is even w/ Amare's loafing on D he is markedly better than Murphy on that end.

Troy has 0, none, zilch, nadda lateral ability.

I like Troy Murphy as a third or fourth option, not a bona-fide 2. That is what he would be here, but you don't give up someone who has a ceiling of JJ for a guy like him when you have the best record.

Troy Murphy will not be the deciding factor in LBJ staying.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:01 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Also interestingly he reported that the Cavs had not yet contacted Amare's agent. Which is odd unless LBJ is doing the Amare feel out on his own.


Is that even legal? Can one team contact the agent of another team's player while he's under contract?

It would seem to me that could open up the door for tampering through an intermediary. Suitor tells agent they really want to trade for his client, client gets news from agent, agent and client both pressure the client's team into making a deal. Seems like it could influence the negotiating process.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:03 am

Papa Cass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Also interestingly he reported that the Cavs had not yet contacted Amare's agent. Which is odd unless LBJ is doing the Amare feel out on his own.


Is that even legal? Can one team contact the agent of another team's player while he's under contract?

It would seem to me that could open up the door for tampering through an intermediary. Suitor tells agent they really want to trade for his client, client gets news from agent, agent and client both pressure the client's team into making a deal. Seems like it could influence the negotiating process.


Then how have extensions been worked out in the past pre trade?

I would assume instances like this would occur w/ the permission of the trading team and I would assume Kerr would have absolutely no objections to the Cavs contacting Amare's agents to gain insight into resignability, desire to play in C-town, etc.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:05 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Troy Murphy will not be the deciding factor in LBJ staying.


Winning and annually being put in position to win will be what keeps LBJ here e0. Nothing else.

This team does not need much more to give them the best shot in the league. They may already have that.

Again, Murphy > JJ today in terms of best chance to win now.

I already said I don't want to see JJ go for Murphy and I'm not convinced he will regardless of the LA Times report.

But if he does, I'm fine with it.

Because if he does, LBJ was fine with it.

Clearly.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:11 am

Peeks, Troy Murphy putting us in a position to win in the future is no sure thing. Third/Fourth option PF's are nice, but JJ has 2nd option raw talent. Troy Murphy is only going to get slower as he ages as well and become a bigger hole on D.

I like Murphy if nothing else is out there, no problems at all. And I won't rail on him being soft like others here have done.

But he's a good to very good complimentary piece. JJ has much more potential than that, as has "reportedly" been identified by both LBJ and Shaq (as well as every GM in the league apparently).
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:17 am

L.A. Times is full of it.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:20 am

Guy is not even quoting sources there reb. Is saying "reportedly."


I don't see much difference between citing the word "reportedly" vs. "unnamed sources". Both are tools to be able to print whatever you want. Regardless it was an LA Times article on an Indiana-Clev trade so that should have been the first tip-off to not being very reliable.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:20 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Peeks, Troy Murphy putting us in a position to win in the future is no sure thing. Third/Fourth option PF's are nice, but JJ has 2nd option raw talent. Troy Murphy is only going to get slower as he ages as well and become a bigger hole on D.

I like Murphy if nothing else is out there, no problems at all. And I won't rail on him being soft like others here have done.

But he's a good to very good complimentary piece. JJ has much more potential than that, as has "reportedly" been identified by both LBJ and Shaq (as well as every GM in the league apparently).



E0- No doubt. That's not news at all. Clearly long term JJ is a higher end possibility than Murphy. The issue is today and this season. Because that's all that matters right now.

That's all that matters.

You do what you have to do to win this season and retain 23. There will be a day down the road when that's no longer the case. But it ain't this week.

And I love the fact that JJ has been ID'd by Shaq and Bron as having potential. Guarantee me both those guys will be here next season to ensure it's developed and I'll stand pat today.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:27 am

Peeks I am talking about providing LBJ a core to keep him here.

Not a bunch of role players, a core.

If Chicago dumps Heinrich they can float a core of Rose, Bosh, Noah and Deng.

Our #2 is going to be Troy Murphy?

At least Hickson has stud potential.

You don't give him up for a 3/4.

Long term is what LBJ is going to be thinking after this year. Number of rings, not singular.

And I have no desire to stand pat. I just don't want JJ in a deal for Murphy or Jamo and the market does not bare either of them being worth a prospect like him.
Last edited by e0y2e3 on Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:28 am

e0y2e3 wrote:I would assume instances like this would occur w/ the permission of the trading team and I would assume Kerr would have absolutely no objections to the Cavs contacting Amare's agents to gain insight into resignability, desire to play in C-town, etc.


That has to be the key. Permission from the team holding the contract.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:32 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Long term is what LBJ is going to be thinking after this year. Number of rings, not singular.


That's truth. LBJ sees what has happened to D-Wade in Miami since '06. And he's probably heard a fair amount of bitching from the man himself.

LBJ doesn't want to find himself in the situation Wade is in. Win one title, and then don't sniff another title for the rest of your 20s. So as much as it's about winning this first ring and ending the Great Cleveland Drought, it's every bit as much about the next 3-5-7 years at Camp LeBron.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:35 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Peeks I am talking about providing LBJ a core to keep him here.

Not a bunch of role players, a core.

If Chicago dumps Heinrich they can float a core of Rose, Bosh, Noah and Deng.

Our #2 is going to be Troy Murphy?

At least Hickson has stud potential.

You don't give him up for a 3/4.

Long term is what LBJ is going to be thinking after this year. Number or rings, not singular.


Yeah, in an ideal world you're right. And it's a no-brainer.

Now again, guarantee me Amare resigns and I'm there with ya.

This isn't polar opposite stuff. I don't want to trade JJ for Murphy. Never have. Z and the 30-whatever pick is enough. But if they have to include JJ in a Murphy deal I'm going to be okay with it. Because it will have come down that's the best that they could do and for the next three months (which are critical) the actuality of Murphy trumps the potential of JJ.

For a title and what that means it just does.

For me. YMMV and that's fine.
It'd be a bitter pill for me too but I'd swallow the pill. Little easier knowing that whomever they bring in to play with LBJ, as long as they have a brain, is going to be a better player for it.

People suddenly seem to see JJ as can't let go material. There's only one can't let go guy on that roster IMO.

Gonna be a fun four days though. ;-) ;) :wink:

This shit is real. Unlike the baseball trade deadline fiasco every year.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:41 am

Papa Cass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Long term is what LBJ is going to be thinking after this year. Number of rings, not singular.


That's truth. LBJ sees what has happened to D-Wade in Miami since '06. And he's probably heard a fair amount of bitching from the man himself.

LBJ doesn't want to find himself in the situation Wade is in. Win one title, and then don't sniff another title for the rest of your 20s. So as much as it's about winning this first ring and ending the Great Cleveland Drought, it's every bit as much about the next 3-5-7 years at Camp LeBron.


I'm not disputing that.

I'm disputing the sudden notion that JJ ain't Forest Gump and that he might be Elgin Baylor all of a sudden instead of a physically gifted player who can't yet shoot and is marginal defensively himself but who looks really solid running to the rim while four guys are hanging on your two HoFers.

You guys can make JJ your 2010 version of Albie Lopez. I'm not doing it.

I am thinking of the future gentlemen.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:44 am

But if they have to include JJ in a Murphy deal I'm going to be okay with it. Because it will have come down that's the best that they could do and for the next three months (which are critical) the actuality of Murphy trumps the potential of JJ.


Peek, I can't concur with this at all. I just don't think Troy Murphy is THAT much of a difference maker. I'd go so far as to say we have just as much chance of winning a sausage this year w/J.J. as with Troy Murphy.

I give up J.J. for STAT only. Maybe, MAYBE Jamison too. Maybe. But for Troy Murphy? No way.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Ziner » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:46 am

Peeker643 wrote:
Papa Cass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Long term is what LBJ is going to be thinking after this year. Number of rings, not singular.


That's truth. LBJ sees what has happened to D-Wade in Miami since '06. And he's probably heard a fair amount of bitching from the man himself.

LBJ doesn't want to find himself in the situation Wade is in. Win one title, and then don't sniff another title for the rest of your 20s. So as much as it's about winning this first ring and ending the Great Cleveland Drought, it's every bit as much about the next 3-5-7 years at Camp LeBron.


I'm not disputing that.

I'm disputing the sudden notion that JJ ain't Forest Gump and that he might be Elgin Baylor all of a sudden instead of a physically gifted player who can't yet shoot and is marginal defensively himself but who looks really solid running to the rim while four guys are hanging on your two HoFers.

You guys can make JJ your 2010 version of Albie Lopez. I'm not doing it.

I am thinking of the future gentlemen.


I see your line of reasoning... but no one here is calling JJ Elgin Baylor. You look at it as LBJ would be happy to know that the Cavs will do what it takes to get him players, even if it is Troy Murphy, and that will help him make his decision to stay here next year. I think what the rest of us are saying is that JJ could be a part of a young core we have here for LBJ to look at and say hey, I can win with those guys. JJ might just end up being Drew Gooden 2.0 when all the dust settles, but the great part in all of this is it seems as if LBJ is going to make that decision. Troy Murphy or JJ Hickson, who does he want. What does he want.

I think we would all rather just have Amar'e and end this discussion though :thumb up:
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby papacass » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:48 am

Peeker643 wrote:I'm disputing the sudden notion that JJ ain't Forest Gump and that he might be Elgin Baylor all of a sudden instead of a physically gifted player who can't yet shoot and is marginal defensively himself but who looks really solid running to the rim while four guys are hanging on your two HoFers.

You guys can make JJ your 2010 version of Albie Lopez. I'm not doing it.

I am thinking of the future gentlemen.


I'm not suddenly reluctant to give up Hickson for a piece that can help win a title this year. My only point was that no matter what the Cavs do -- stand pat, trade for Amare, Jamo, Murphy, dig up Wilt and re-enact scenes from "Weekend at Bernie's" -- they have to be able to reap benefits after this season. Because that's the lens through which LBJ is viewing things.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:53 am

After a decade of drafts that produced... Boobie.... you have to keep your first real prospect unless dealing him for an in his prime guy. LBJ is not going to sign up for this annual game of "what can we do w/ our old guys expiring contract this year!" and to keep on hoping the trade market breaks for us and we can land a role player that can help for a year or two annually is silly.

You have to develop young talent at some point Peeks.

This is especially true w/ the new CBA looming.

Ziner hit on it pretty good. JJ is showing flashes. Flashes that in the long term, IMO, outweigh and old ass Jamo and a slow as Murphy (and I like both of them as players).

There comes a point where this annual trade deadline crap is just going to stop working. And face it, both Jamo and Murphy would just be new contracts in another year to deal and *maybe* land that in his prime complimentary player.

And yeah, over the course of this season I have changed my stance on JJ a lot.

He's developing, a ton. Still has holes and still may end up Drew Gooden as Ziner said, but he is, again our first legit prospect since the late 90's.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:55 am

HermanFontenot wrote:
But if they have to include JJ in a Murphy deal I'm going to be okay with it. Because it will have come down that's the best that they could do and for the next three months (which are critical) the actuality of Murphy trumps the potential of JJ.


Peek, I can't concur with this at all. I just don't think Troy Murphy is THAT much of a difference maker. I'd go so far as to say we have just as much chance of winning a sausage this year w/J.J. as with Troy Murphy.

I give up J.J. for STAT only. Maybe, MAYBE Jamison too. Maybe. But for Troy Murphy? No way.


I don't necessarily think so either Herm. But if they do it it's because they felt it was enough of a difference maker. 'They' being the front office of Ferry and James.

I think they have a better chance this season with Murphy than with JJ. It may be nominally better but Murphy is not a guy who's going to get lost in a series or who you have to worry about showing up.

In the playoffs I want a quality player I can count on and not spikes and valleys of a developing guy.

Hey, if they ultimately stand still I still think they are as viable a contender as anyone else. But they're only better off down the road if JJ becomes the stud you guys are projecting him as.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:58 am

Peeker643 wrote:
HermanFontenot wrote:
But if they have to include JJ in a Murphy deal I'm going to be okay with it. Because it will have come down that's the best that they could do and for the next three months (which are critical) the actuality of Murphy trumps the potential of JJ.


Peek, I can't concur with this at all. I just don't think Troy Murphy is THAT much of a difference maker. I'd go so far as to say we have just as much chance of winning a sausage this year w/J.J. as with Troy Murphy.

I give up J.J. for STAT only. Maybe, MAYBE Jamison too. Maybe. But for Troy Murphy? No way.


I don't necessarily think so either Herm. But if they do it it's because they felt it was enough of a difference maker. 'They' being the front office of Ferry and James.

I think they have a better chance this season with Murphy than with JJ. It may be nominally better but Murphy is not a guy who's going to get lost in a series or who you have to worry about showing up.

In the playoffs I want a quality player I can count on and not spikes and valleys of a developing guy.

Hey, if they ultimately stand still I still think they are as viable a contender as anyone else.



To be fair I think both of us are in the "In tBald One I Trust" camp.

I think I know what he is thinking, via his actions at the deadline.

I think there is no reason to even say that one can rationalize dumping JJ for Murphy right now. Probably not Jamo either. Otherwise I suspect one of those deals would have happened already.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:03 pm

I think they have a better chance this season with Murphy than with JJ. It may be nominally better but Murphy is not a guy who's going to get lost in a series or who you have to worry about showing up.



How do we know this? Murphy has been on terrible teams his entire time in the league. He's never been to the playoffs let alone had the chance to show up (or not show up as the case may be) big in them. He's almost as much of a playoff mystery as JJ. Just because a guy can play in December doesn't mean he's going to be money in his very 1st playoffs with a brand new team. Just look at Mo.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:24 pm

Cavs on Thursday night and beyond if they get Amare:



Worth the risk if you ask me. If we can't get him, I say just offer Z/Wally and a First Rounder for Murphy or Jamison and stand pat otherwise. JJ's no worldbeater but we shouldn't be giving him up for an expensive 33 year old.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:27 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
I think they have a better chance this season with Murphy than with JJ. It may be nominally better but Murphy is not a guy who's going to get lost in a series or who you have to worry about showing up.



How do we know this? Murphy has been on terrible teams his entire time in the league. He's never been to the playoffs let alone had the chance to show up (or not show up as the case may be) big in them. He's almost as much of a playoff mystery as JJ. Just because a guy can play in December doesn't mean he's going to be money in his very 1st playoffs with a brand new team. Just look at Mo.


We don't. Just an opinion. Kind of like the opinion that people have that Amare will show up, not be disruptive, give all energy required defensively and not chafe as the 2nd or 3rd option on the floor when both he and Shaq are out there.

Same damn way we know all that. ;-) ;) :wink:

What I do know is I have watched JJ not show up or get lost more games than he hasn't this season. I have seen that with my eyes. And more often than I've seen him show the promise that people have pinned him with.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:30 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:He's developing, a ton. Still has holes and still may end up Drew Gooden as Ziner said, but he is, again our first legit prospect since the late 90's.


Andy was a legit prospect that we have developed. Don't forget about him.

Sasha was a prospect as well. Remeber the rumors of Gooden and Sasha for Bibby a couple of years back? No one wanted to trade Sasha because of his value. I thought Sasha was being over valued then, and I think that JJ is being over valued now.

The guy has a great first step for a big man and gets up quick. His length is very average, his size is very average. His skill is far below average. His basketball IQ is far below average. It's terrible, honestly.

We are looking at a guy who is destined to be the first big man off an NBA bench to provide a little bit of scoring. He is starting to find a way to play well next to LBJ but let's not confuse that with potential to be the second best option on a good team. He is starting now due to circumstance.

The Albie Lopez comparison was good, all things considered, but Sasha is probably better.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:30 pm

Also, Indy's hemmorhaging money, I'd be very surprised if they wouldn't trade Murphy straight up for an expiring deal when push comes to shove Thursday.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:31 pm

If we give up our only young upside player for Troy Fucking Murphy everyone here should vomit in their shoes.

Unless you think Christian Eyenga is going to ride in and save the future.

It's not just about how good you think JJ can eventually be. It's not just about how much of an upgrade Murphy is this year. It's about leaving the team with zero pieces that can be used to secure a legitimate star type player in a future trade. Everyone should realize by now that expiring contracts aren't enough to get that player by now. JJ is more valuable to us, either as a future player or trade chip, than Troy Fucking Murphy.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:35 pm

The guy has a great first step for a big man and gets up quick. His length is very average, his size is very average. His skill is far below average. His basketball IQ is far below average. It's terrible, honestly.



He's also basically a college junior. That lone can explain why his skill and IQ are below average. His size isn't average. He's got a solid 6'9" frame that can easily put on 20-30 pounds of muscle. He's just doughy-looking this year because he couldn't work out at all during the off-season.


I think we're all in agreement on the value of JJ is all in the projection. Where that projection stops is the true argument.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:36 pm

aoxo1 wrote:If we give up our only young upside player for Troy Fucking Murphy everyone here should vomit in their shoes.

Unless you think Christian Eyenga is going to ride in and save the future.

It's not just about how good you think JJ can eventually be. It's not just about how much of an upgrade Murphy is this year. It's about leaving the team with zero pieces that can be used to secure a legitimate star type player in a future trade. Everyone should realize by now that expiring contracts aren't enough to get that player by now. JJ is more valuable to us, either as a future player or trade chip, than Troy Fucking Murphy.


Question for you (and I agree about JJ for Murphy as I've already stated):

Is Albie Lopez still that valuable to the Tribe as a trading chip?

If not, why is that?
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:39 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:If we give up our only young upside player for Troy Fucking Murphy everyone here should vomit in their shoes.

Unless you think Christian Eyenga is going to ride in and save the future.

It's not just about how good you think JJ can eventually be. It's not just about how much of an upgrade Murphy is this year. It's about leaving the team with zero pieces that can be used to secure a legitimate star type player in a future trade. Everyone should realize by now that expiring contracts aren't enough to get that player by now. JJ is more valuable to us, either as a future player or trade chip, than Troy Fucking Murphy.


Question for you (and I agree about JJ for Murphy as I've already stated):

Is Albie Lopez still that valuable to the Tribe as a trading chip?

If not, why is that?

I'll answer that as soon as you tell me if Brandon Phillips would have been a valuable piece for the Tribe to hold onto.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:46 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
The guy has a great first step for a big man and gets up quick. His length is very average, his size is very average. His skill is far below average. His basketball IQ is far below average. It's terrible, honestly.



He's also basically a college junior. That lone can explain why his skill and IQ are below average. His size isn't average. He's got a solid 6'9" frame that can easily put on 20-30 pounds of muscle. He's just doughy-looking this year because he couldn't work out at all during the off-season.


I think we're all in agreement on the value of JJ is all in the projection. Where that projection stops is the true argument.


Honestly, next time you are watching them play pay attention to his size. He blends in with other forwards, and that includes many SF's. A PF like Amare has excellent length, and it is noticable on the court. Hickson has average size for an NBA PF. But his first step and quickness in his leap is why he is in the league.

As far as being doughy looking, he looked like that last season when he was healthy.

His basketball IQ is not going to change, IMO.

I have been wrong before, though. I'll be wrong again. :thumb up:
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:48 pm

aoxo1 wrote:
Peeker643 wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:If we give up our only young upside player for Troy Fucking Murphy everyone here should vomit in their shoes.

Unless you think Christian Eyenga is going to ride in and save the future.

It's not just about how good you think JJ can eventually be. It's not just about how much of an upgrade Murphy is this year. It's about leaving the team with zero pieces that can be used to secure a legitimate star type player in a future trade. Everyone should realize by now that expiring contracts aren't enough to get that player by now. JJ is more valuable to us, either as a future player or trade chip, than Troy Fucking Murphy.


Question for you (and I agree about JJ for Murphy as I've already stated):

Is Albie Lopez still that valuable to the Tribe as a trading chip?

If not, why is that?

I'll answer that as soon as you tell me if Brandon Phillips would have been a valuable piece for the Tribe to hold onto.


They'd have been better off with Philips than with what they got in return, no doubt. But it's not because Philps realized his ungodly potential. Much ado about 'meh' with Phillips. Fer crissakes, Philips is the Troy Murphy of 2nd baseman. He's above average but nothing more and he never will be. ;-) ;) :wink:

But you know what? I'd deal all that potential that was Albie Lopez for a mediocre MLB player like Philips.

You better hope that JJ goes well beyond 'meh' if you're not gonna use him in a deal.

There's your answer.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:50 pm

I worry about losing the potential gem that is JJ for a guy we may only have for 3 months, who doesn't have the best work rate, isn't a fan of defense, and suffered when playing alongside Shaq in Phoenix.

I would be just fine with leaving this team as it is unless we can get a player who can contribute further with this team straight up for Z
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:51 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:
Peeker643 wrote:
aoxo1 wrote:If we give up our only young upside player for Troy Fucking Murphy everyone here should vomit in their shoes.

Unless you think Christian Eyenga is going to ride in and save the future.

It's not just about how good you think JJ can eventually be. It's not just about how much of an upgrade Murphy is this year. It's about leaving the team with zero pieces that can be used to secure a legitimate star type player in a future trade. Everyone should realize by now that expiring contracts aren't enough to get that player by now. JJ is more valuable to us, either as a future player or trade chip, than Troy Fucking Murphy.


Question for you (and I agree about JJ for Murphy as I've already stated):

Is Albie Lopez still that valuable to the Tribe as a trading chip?

If not, why is that?

I'll answer that as soon as you tell me if Brandon Phillips would have been a valuable piece for the Tribe to hold onto.


They'd have been better off with Philips than with what they got in return, no doubt. But it's not because Philps realized his ungodly potential. Much ado about 'meh' with Phillips. Fer crissakes, Philips is the Troy Murphy of 2nd baseman. He's above average but nothing more and he never will be. ;-) ;) :wink:

You better hope that JJ goes well beyond 'meh' if you're not gonna use him in a deal.

There's your answer.

Heh, I haven't actually paid attention to Phillips since that first breakout year in Cincy. Just the first one that came to mind, and was a bonus because I am well aware of his illustrious history over on the Tribe board here.

Feel free to substitute your favorite "they gave up on him too soon and traded him for spare parts!" prospect here. Maybe Richie Sexson or Brian Giles?
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:53 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:I worry about losing the potential gem that is JJ for a guy we may only have for 3 months, who doesn't have the best work rate, isn't a fan of defense, and suffered when playing alongside Shaq in Phoenix.

I would be just fine with leaving this team as it is unless we can get a player who can contribute further with this team straight up for Z

Phoenix had a ridiculously efficient offense last year with Shaq and Amare.

And make no mistake: if the Cavs deal for him, they can resign Amare if they want. He wants the most money possible, and the Cavs will be in a position to give it to him. All the moodiness and selfishness is about getting enough touches so he can get enough stats so he can get enough money.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:57 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:I worry about losing the potential gem that is JJ for a guy we may only have for 3 months, who doesn't have the best work rate, isn't a fan of defense, and suffered when playing alongside Shaq in Phoenix.

I would be just fine with leaving this team as it is unless we can get a player who can contribute further with this team straight up for Z



This is a fallacy. The Suns were actually #1 in offensive efficiency with both Shaq and Amare. It was more Shaq not meshing with the Suns run n' gun than anything with Amare.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:00 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:I worry about losing the potential gem that is JJ for a guy we may only have for 3 months, who doesn't have the best work rate, isn't a fan of defense, and suffered when playing alongside Shaq in Phoenix.

I would be just fine with leaving this team as it is unless we can get a player who can contribute further with this team straight up for Z



This is a fallacy. The Suns were actually #1 in offensive efficiency with both Shaq and Amare. It was more Shaq not meshing with the Suns run n' gun than anything with Amare.


Just something else to consider along these lines:

ChrisMannixSI Scout told me today he thinks STAT-Shaq can work because Cleveland O designed for 2 bigs, unlike PHX which puts premium on perimeter players
about 19 hours ago from web
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:02 pm

ILO, it's all about, are you gonna win the title this year, and is that worth it.

Because if JJ and Troy Murphy switched teams, there isn't anyone on God's green earth that would'nt rather have Troy THIS YEAR. I doubt he's going to have a problem with the four chippies a night he'll get courtesy of the king - just might be some lay-ups instead of dunks. Not to mention the open looks from 12 feet that JJ still has no confidence in converting, and to be frank, questionable ability to convert.

Yes there's credence to developing a promising young player, there's credence in the thought he's still very young, and there's credence into how you rate his future.

Right now I see a plus athlete, who seems to be coming on. But I also see a guy who's nights are room service based by the situations at times, and, that being the case RIGHT NOW, he looks like someone that is replaceable enough down the road that you aren't going to be killing yourself over moving.

Again, send Hickson RIGHT NOW to Murphy's supporting cast, and all of the sudden you're taking away how many point blankers a week?

Hickson is coming on, and Andy cuts well and handles the passes - both of these guys do things that an idiot like Drew Gooden could not, but Christ, if this team gets a 4 that REALLY knows how to put it in the bucket - the King and this team will make him an all-star for years to come.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby jb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:12 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Troy Murphy will not be the deciding factor in LBJ staying.



Bingo, and I don't mean Bobby Smiff.

This deal is about the Lebronitization of he cavs for at least the next 3 seasons.

We're winning a title anyway. At least I am 98% sure.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby jb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:13 pm

JoJo White wrote:Chris Mannix weighs in with like 8 tweets in a row:




I dig barneby Jones more.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby jb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:16 pm

davemanddd wrote:geezus, can we please just cut thru all the b.s. rumors and talking head rhetoric and just get this effing amare deal done already??? i'm tired of all the posturing and the blatant attempts at "one-upmanship" by all these reporters trying to out-scoop their competitors. who gives a red rat's ass who breaks the story first??? does it make you more money if you "get it here first???". i don't think so. so what's the point??? i think any reporter who spreads disinformation and is proven to be just a flat-out liar needs to have his press pass revoked!!!



Lots of details, dave.

Broussard is sounding more and more like it is happenin'.

Said > 50 - 50.

God. I am going tocry. Haven't been this excited about a vet aqusition snce Andre Rison.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:16 pm

Lead Pipe wrote:ILO, it's all about, are you gonna win the title this year, and is that worth it.

Because if JJ and Troy Murphy switched teams, there isn't anyone on God's green earth that would'nt rather have Troy THIS YEAR. I doubt he's going to have a problem with the four chippies a night he'll get courtesy of the king - just might be some lay-ups instead of dunks. Not to mention the open looks from 12 feet that JJ still has no confidence in converting, and to be frank, questionable ability to convert.

Yes there's credence to developing a promising young player, there's credence in the thought he's still very young, and there's credence into how you rate his future.

Right now I see a plus athlete, who seems to be coming on. But I also see a guy who's nights are room service based by the situations at times, and, that being the case RIGHT NOW, he looks like someone that is replaceable enough down the road that you aren't going to be killing yourself over moving.

Again, send Hickson RIGHT NOW to Murphy's supporting cast, and all of the sudden you're taking away how many point blankers a week?

Hickson is coming on, and Andy cuts well and handles the passes - both of these guys do things that an idiot like Drew Gooden could not, but Christ, if this team gets a 4 that REALLY knows how to put it in the bucket - the King and this team will make him an all-star for years to come.


You're ignoring D though Lead.

Hickson's basketball IQ has improved this year. I was in the camp that thought he was an idiot for life.

Does Troys fall off on D from even Hickson (again, Hickson manned up on Z-Bo just the other night damn well and he provides weak side blocks Murphy won't) become irrelevant because he can score some more?

Regardless.

We have on legit prospect and this is about the future.

LBJ and Shaq and Ferry have ID'd Hickson as a piece whose value in a trade is equal to that of his ultimate ceiling (Amare).

You don't give that up for a 5% better shot this year at the title.

Again, how long do we have to go through this Expiring Deal Trade Deadline Crap.

Eventually we have to, you know, stop this plug and play crap. Especially w/ a new CBA coming that will end it for good.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby jb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:17 pm

Cleveland Transplant wrote:Am I the only one that really thinks that getting STAT (or not) isn't going to determine whether Lebron James leaves or not?



Yes.

But keep posting anyway.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:17 pm

JB wrote:Haven't been this excited about a vet aqusition snce Andre Rison.


Quote of the dead-line.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby jb » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:22 pm

Peeker643 wrote:That's all that matters.



Epic fail bad take.

Bron staying is all that matters.

If not this year, next. Ne's winning titles.

I would worry, but Angel fan has the inside dope.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:32 pm

JB wrote:
Peeker643 wrote:That's all that matters.



Epic fail bad take.

Bron staying is all that matters.

If not this year, next. Ne's winning titles.

I would worry, but Angel fan has the inside dope.


The whole point I'm making is in regard to 'Bron staying and winning titles. If he leaves there are none. But you already know that and just decided to stir the pot with a snippet. Kinda like me doing this to your post:

JB wrote:
Epic take.


Thank you. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:33 pm

Why Chad Ford is a retard, as written by him:

Given that the Cavs have concerns about well Stoudemire and Shaquille O’Neal would fit together, the team would consider moving Shaq if it acquired Amare. For instance, the Cavs could swap O’Neal and their first-round pick to Washington for Jamison and Mike Miller. They could send the same package to Indiana in a deal for Murphy and Mike Dunleavy.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:33 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Why Chad Ford is a retard, as written by him:

Given that the Cavs have concerns about well Stoudemire and Shaquille O’Neal would fit together, the team would consider moving Shaq if it acquired Amare. For instance, the Cavs could swap O’Neal and their first-round pick to Washington for Jamison and Mike Miller. They could send the same package to Indiana in a deal for Murphy and Mike Dunleavy.


Jesus. That is about as it gets.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:34 pm

“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby Ziner » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:41 pm



Nothing new.

Deal is on the table
PHX wants to see if they get a better deal
Broussard feels as if it gets done
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby OldDawg » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:46 pm


From work??? Man, what your bosses don't know!!! ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Cavs talking with Phoenix about Amare?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:47 pm

OldDawg wrote:

From work??? Man, what your bosses don't know!!! ;-) ;) :wink:


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