Orlando Magic

[aoxo1]

I'll be the first to admit I am shocked by what is going on in Orlando right now. They looked completely unstoppable at the beginning of the season, and I only expected them to get better when Rashard came back, as Jameer returned to full health physically mentally and emotionally, and they figured out to work Vince and the rest of the acquisitions in.

They are a complete mess right now, though. I am most familiar with Jameer, as I see him taking a big shit on my fantasy team every game, and Dwight's inconsistency. Howard is an animal, when teams have no physical presence to speak of. Put him against even a mediocre big man who at least does some squats once in a while and he is invisible. He should be amongst the 5 best players in the game, along with LeBron, Kobe, Paul, and... well, I'm not exactly sure who the 4th guy is. Maybe Melo, soon to be Durant, but that's another topic. No, wait, it's still Tim Duncan.

We've seen, as e0 has pointed out several times, that Howard and SVG have been losing their shit all season about how the officials are out to get Dewey. But it's nonsense, dude is not called like Shaq used to be. Add that he got, or at least should have gotten, a reputation as a dirty elbow thrower in the playoffs last year and I can't blame the refs for calling him closely. It's maybe too close, but it's not to the point where they should be hysterical about it after every foul out.

Now Lewis is making a little noise. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/o ... 1728.story

The addition of Carter — who leads the team in scoring (17.4) and shots attempted (487), by far — has affected Lewis as has a team-wide offensive malaise.

"You look at the stat sheet, it kind of speaks for itself every night. I think in order for me to have a good game I have to make every shot, every last one of them. Because I'm not getting very many of them," said Lewis, an edge to his voice. "Guys coming off the bench are getting more shots. There's nothing I can do about it. …

"I don't think were just playing with a good rhythm on the offensive end as a team."

Rashard, you are averaging the second most shots on the team behind Vince. No one off the bench is within 3 FGA's per game of you.

Lots of people here questioned whether Vince could fit in, even as 90% of the media was fellating Orlando for the deal. But he is taking 15.0 shots per game, while shooting only 38.9%. That's the lowest percentage on the entire roster. And it's not close. Jameer and Rashard are both at 42.2%, and everyone else is higher. Worse, Carter is taking 4.7 (!) 3's per game and is only at 30.3 (!). He has an abhorrent adjFG% of 43.6% (this stat adjusts FG% for 3s). Jameer is the only other guy on the roster below 50%. Yikes.

I would suggest that SVG take a page from Rick Adelman on how to deal with that family of losers and staple Vince's ass to the bench. Hell, they at least went 2-1 in the 3 games he recently missed. They are 0-5 in the last 5 with him.

[peeker643]

Dewey got it going last night with 11 big points in a blowout loss to the Blazers. That's the Blazers without Brandon Roye, Greg Oden and Joel Pryzbilla too.

Probably the officials letting Juwann Howard get away with murder against Superman.

Or maybe it was his missing 7 of his 10 free throws.

They looked disjointed and completely disinterested defensively.

[FUDU]

Howard is still very raw in the post, IMO he regressed with his technical footwork and such from two years ago.

As for Vince, simply he sucks, just totally overrated in terms of a basketball player on a team that is gunning for something meaningful. Lewis was a big part of what made that team hit last season and while he gets his shots it sounds as if he only gets them if he pretty much shoots with 90% of the touches he gets. I haven't watched a ton of the Magic this season so correct me if that is not the case with Lewis. He'll hurt you for a game and can probably still go for 35 but when ti counts most? I don't know about that.

[StewieG]

Haven't really watched Orlando much lately, but it seems like it's a case of too many cooks in the kitchen. Maybe try bringing in Lewis off the bench to be instant offense?

Other than that, it doesn't sound like they're doing much defensively. Probably not creating many points for themselves off of turnovers and fastbreaks.

[e0y2e3]

As I have said repeatedly on here there are three huge issues:

1) Injuries (especially after the major roster changes)

2) Dewey and his emotions (biggest issues)

3) Being "too" deep. The issues extend beyond Vince having a terrible year, you also have Gortat who does not want to be there and thinks he should be starting in Dallas, Bass who is playing far less of a role than he wanted and isn't happy, White Chocolate playing at least as good at PG as Meer, etc.

Team needs to get everyone together for a long stretch and work out the kinks and needs Dewey to get a grip (which starts up top w/ Ron Jeremy and his emotions). Someone said the other day that Ron Jeremy is both the Magic's biggest strength and weakness and it is very evident. Especially w/ how Dewey has adopted his emotions.

BTW: Dewey's down a half block per 36 min this year and is averaging an astounding 3.9 fouls per 36. That is insane.

Interestingly, in Gortat they have a very real trade piece. Will be interesting to see if they make a move to shed a bit of the excess depth.

[e0y2e3]

And now this from Stein:

For all the above unknowns in circulation, here’s something definitive I’ve heard from three separate folks close to the situation: Arenas would love to land with the Orlando Magic when this ordeal is over.

I’ve also been led to believe that Orlando will give the matter strong consideration whenever Arenas becomes available, whether or not that happens before next season.

Sources told ESPN.com that Magic general manager Otis Smith, who was part of Golden State’s brain trust when the Warriors drafted Arenas as a second-rounder in 2001, continues to be one of Arenas’ closest confidantes in the league.

Sources thus say it’s a virtual certainty, given the depth of their friendship, that Arenas will lobby Smith to be the GM who looks past the damage this incident has done to Gil's reputation and grants his comeback chance.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... on-orlando

Christ, I LOVE Gil when he is healthy. Guy is a special talent and his no fear ego is second to none when he is on. That said, the last thing that team needs is GIl when you consider all of the griping going on already about Vince. If Lewis could keep his mouth shut and play a Jamo roll it could work, but I doubt that and no way you can have Vince and Gil on a roster together. That said, odds are real high that next season Gil gets his shot back and if he (or Vince) is making all of those shots at a high clip you may not here the bitching you are hearing now in Orlando.

[papacass]

3) Being "too" deep. The issues extend beyond Vince having a terrible year, you also have Gortat who does not want to be there and thinks he should be starting in Dallas, Bass who is playing far less of a role than he wanted and isn't happy, White Chocolate playing at least as good at PG as Meer, etc.

I wonder if the Magic fell victim to "runner-up syndrome" this past summer. They shocked everyone in knocking off Boston and Cleveland in the playoffs, and in the span of two months of playoff basketball went from this up-and-coming undercard team that was building momentum at a nice, steady pace to a team that suddenly found itself in the Finals, on the doorstep of a championship.

It's almost like if you come out of nowhere like that, you need to win it all, otherwise the urge to tinker will be unberable if you come up short so close to a title.

Maybe it was a little too much success all at once and maybe Otis Smith freaked a bit. Suddenly, he was GM-ing a team that Orlando fans and ownership expected to win a title in '09-'10. So he just started vacuuming up any decent role player that he could find. Thing of it is, if you're going to have great depth, you need to have a rank-and-file system, where you know who your starters are, who your top 3-4 bench guys are, what lineup you can use to play small, play big, play with the game on the line, etc. Otherwise you're going to have a huge traffic jam on your hands.

Smith handed SVG a well-stocked kitchen, but he has like three mixers, two coffee makers and a restaurant-grade oven, even when he just wants to pop in a DiGiorno. It's almost like overkill and too much redundancy.

Couple that with the fact that they let their "special sauce" player in Hedo walk because they didn't want to give a 30-year-old a 5-year deal, and replaced him with Vinsanity, who is a 32-year-old freelance scorer with a growing history of injuries and playoff disappointments, and it's hard to see any rhyme or reason to what they did this past summer.

They could yet get it all together and be very formidable come playoff time, but right now it looks like Smith's best course of action would have been to bite the bullet and re-sign Hedo last summer, maybe trade off Skip with Jameer coming back, and just let everything else be.

[Frank Duffy]

Don't mean to sound like Drew D., and I know all the team culture arguments, but...

if you're Ferry and you really believe Jamison is the answer, do you consider offering to take Arenas off their hands for him. Wouldn't the Wiz have to do it? We could offer Z, on condition we get him back, and Wally. If Wally isn't willing or healthy, it probably wouldn't work.

It would add nearly $30M next year, doubled for tax, but - consider Shaq and Z will make maybe $11M next year instead of $33, so that takes most of it back off. I'm not even counting on Arenas playing this year, but what a bonus that would be if if only gets probation. Next year, he would be an exciting addition, or would be tradeable. If he pans out, you could trade Boobie for an expiring and save another chunk.

Granted, Stern's head would explode at the prospect of Arenas and Delonte on the same team, but, once again, if you think Jamison gets us a title, don't you have to consider it?'

[scott]

if you're Ferry and you really believe Jamison is the answer, do you consider offering to take Arenas off their hands for him.

Hibachi's deal runs through 2014. Not too long ago I heard someone calling Elton Brand's contract as toxic. After his antics last week Gil's deal is a superfund site.

[e0y2e3]

Until Gil is playing at more than 70% that contract is the worst in tAssociation.

And no one knows if he will ever be better than 70% again.

PS: no way Gilbert takes on $30MM in contracts for next year. Guy is willing to spend, but that would put us into Knicks status. Not to mention that no one in the league is going to trade for Gil and him and LBJ are both too ball dominant to coexist.

[Frank Duffy]

Yeah, very sensible. Take a good look at the MRIs. But it wouldn't really be $30M added. Some who hate Z think he could be replaced for a couple million. And I have no idea what Shaq's market value is but it can't be more than around $7M. That means about $24M comes off the books, which is not that far off what Jamison and A. would cost. Even with a raise for LB, our payroll would be less than LA, and not much more than Boston.

The point is to get Jamison. Do you think we're good enough without him? With him? If he's the difference, this gets him. Arenas is secondary, although his upside is a possible big bonus, and he's never had anyone like Shaq and LB to teach him his place. At 70% he could be a dream come true for this team. If we look at the MRI and see hope, others will too, and he's tradeable. Worry about the contract in due time.

Not saying do it, just hope it's being considered.

[Ea$t $ide]

Orlando screwed up with all of the offseason moves they made. They got rid of everything that made them good. And brought in a piece of poop like Carter...I'm glad because with the addition of Shaq and the subtraction of Hedo, Skip and the rookie the Magic had last year (can't remember his name) the Cavs are better than the Magic and will not lose a playoff series to them. Shoot the addition of Carter alone has doomed them...

[papacass]

Howard is still very raw in the post, IMO he regressed with his technical footwork and such from two years ago.

When does "raw" become "just not very good at it"?

This is Dewey's sixth year in the league. Maybe he is what he is: a dominant defensive presence and superior athlete who lacks a real offensive post game. Maybe scoring off the block just isn't what he does.

[Ea$t $ide]

Howard is still very raw in the post, IMO he regressed with his technical footwork and such from two years ago.

When does "raw" become "just not very good at it"?

This is Dewey's sixth year in the league. Maybe he is what he is: a dominant defensive presence and superior athlete who lacks a real offensive post game. Maybe scoring off the block just isn't what he does.

6 years in but still a very young man...you're right in that right now he still lacks a real offensive post game other than getting so far under the hoop he power dunks in your face...he can still develop. players can and normally do improve over time.

[mattvan1]

3) Being "too" deep. The issues extend beyond Vince having a terrible year, you also have Gortat who does not want to be there and thinks he should be starting in Dallas, Bass who is playing far less of a role than he wanted and isn't happy, White Chocolate playing at least as good at PG as Meer, etc.

I wonder if the Magic fell victim to "runner-up syndrome" this past summer. They shocked everyone except noted TCF poster Herm Fontenot, in knocking off Boston and Cleveland in the playoffs.........

Edited for historical accuracy.

[Orenthal]

As I have said repeatedly on here there are three huge issues:

1) Injuries (especially after the major roster changes)

2) Dewey and his emotions (biggest issues)

3) Being "too" deep. The issues extend beyond Vince having a terrible year, you also have Gortat who does not want to be there and thinks he should be starting in Dallas, Bass who is playing far less of a role than he wanted and isn't happy, White Chocolate playing at least as good at PG as Meer, etc.

Team needs to get everyone together for a long stretch and work out the kinks and needs Dewey to get a grip (which starts up top w/ Ron Jeremy and his emotions). Someone said the other day that Ron Jeremy is both the Magic's biggest strength and weakness and it is very evident. Especially w/ how Dewey has adopted his emotions.

BTW: Dewey's down a half block per 36 min this year and is averaging an astounding 3.9 fouls per 36. That is insane.

Interestingly, in Gortat they have a very real trade piece. Will be interesting to see if they make a move to shed a bit of the excess depth.

Nice list of their tangible problems, but the loss of Turkey-gloo could top that list. The name fits as he was their glue/cog player. The guy they would go to salvage a possession, and a guy with enough ego to provide the team a lightning rod. Don't think I need to describe his game here, we all know that. He was the D-West and Varejao type player for Orlando. Perfect fit for his skill set. Cannot say the same in Toronto where he is only shooting for a slightly higher percentage, but is down in most other key stats...

[papacass]

Howard is still very raw in the post, IMO he regressed with his technical footwork and such from two years ago.

When does "raw" become "just not very good at it"?

This is Dewey's sixth year in the league. Maybe he is what he is: a dominant defensive presence and superior athlete who lacks a real offensive post game. Maybe scoring off the block just isn't what he does.

6 years in but still a very young man...you're right in that right now he still lacks a real offensive post game other than getting so far under the hoop he power dunks in your face...he can still develop. players can and normally do improve over time.

He can get better at it, but probably never enough that he can become a safety-valve kind of scorer the way Shaq was in his prime.

Incidentally, the "he still lacks a real offensive post game other than getting so far under the hoop he power dunks in your face" reference is exactly why I think Old Superman is Young Superman's kryptonite. No question that Dewey is miles more athletic than Shaq, and could probably have dunked over even Lakers-era Aristotle. But Shaq is so big and wide, not only is he next to impossible to post up, he's difficult to get any space against, period.

Space is the only ally that Howard has. If he gets operating space, a chance to to face up his man and explode to the hoop, he's big trouble. But against Shaqtus, if you turn around, your face is already buried in his ample man boobs.

If any player in the league is custom-built to gum up Dewey's offensive game, it's Shaq. And that's before we even get into Dewey's tendency to rack up fouls at an alarming rate on defense. Shaq doesn't even need to put the ball in the hoop. He just needs to get Howard his first two fouls within the first six minutes of the game. That starts a bad chain reaction for Dewey, as we saw in the November game.

[e0y2e3]

Thing is OJ, they have so much talent and are so deep they should be able to make up for Hedo.

I mean they didn't replace him w/ one guy, they replaced him w/ four guys and having those four guys should allow them to match-up against anyone.

Plus, It's hard to say a 32 year old having a career year is going to be replicated down the line. D-West is just now entering the prime of his career, Hedo is on the backside of his.

Yeah, they would probably be better off w/ him this year, but that is mainly because there personalities are clashing, as noted in #3.

[e0y2e3]

Yeah, very sensible. Take a good look at the MRIs. But it wouldn't really be $30M added. Some who hate Z think he could be replaced for a couple million. And I have no idea what Shaq's market value is but it can't be more than around $7M. That means about $24M comes off the books, which is not that far off what Jamison and A. would cost. Even with a raise for LB, our payroll would be less than LA, and not much more than Boston.

The point is to get Jamison. Do you think we're good enough without him? With him? If he's the difference, this gets him. Arenas is secondary, although his upside is a possible big bonus, and he's never had anyone like Shaq and LB to teach him his place. At 70% he could be a dream come true for this team. If we look at the MRI and see hope, others will too, and he's tradeable. Worry about the contract in due time.

Not saying do it, just hope it's being considered.

You are forgetting about this year.

Tax Bill doesn't even get processed until 2/1.

[Orenthal]

Agree in the sense of a business decision with Hedo. Toronto gave him a deal that Orlando, even prior to the Carter deal, would have been silly to make. The fact that the one guy that was a major part of replacing Hedo is the cancer known as Vince Carter, offsets the wise business move.

However, this all smells like those who were ready to jump within the first 10 Cavaliers games. I expect Orlando to figure things out as the season wears on and still be a team I would love to avoid come playoff time. I have no problem skipping out on 2 of the big three on the way to the finals. SVG has his hands full...

[aoxo1]

Agree in the sense of a business decision with Hedo. Toronto gave him a deal that Orlando, even prior to the Carter deal, would have been silly to make. The fact that the one guy that was a major part of replacing Hedo is the cancer known as Vince Carter, offsets the wise business move.

Well, that and the fact they agreed to pay Brandon Bass and Marcin Gortat $52 million.

It seems clear, at least to me, that Otis Smith approaches franchise building the same way a freshly minted 21 year old approaches women at the club. Yeah, random chance dictates it might all come together in a completely unconventional way one season, but it's not a long term strategy and it doesn't result in much more than a chronic infection.

[papacass]

However, this all smells like those who were ready to jump within the first 10 Cavaliers games. I expect Orlando to figure things out as the season wears on and still be a team I would love to avoid come playoff time. I have no problem skipping out on 2 of the big three on the way to the finals. SVG has his hands full...

Thing of it is, Orlando doesn't really have an LBJ to kind of make things fall in order. They have a defensive force in Dewey surrounded by a bevy of shooters. So as talented as Orlando's roster is, there is no one to be "the man" and kind of dictate roles for the rest of the roster. That's how you get Rashard griping about losing touches/shots to Vinsanity.

The Cavs' problems at the outset of the season had to do more with guys getting used to each other. The Magic's problems are on more of a team-DNA level. It's how they're set up.

Every team has their shortcomings. The Cavs don't defend the pick and roll well, and LBJ tends to stall the offense in the fourth quarter. Boston has age and injury issues. Atlanta lacks physicality, and so do the Lakers to a lesser extent. Orlando's problems are being showcased right now.

[e0y2e3]

SVG has to be that guy Cass.

He has that get in players faces intangible Brown so annoyingly lacks. The question is, whether or not he can put it all together in a calculated and balanced way or are his emotions going to backfire and add to the problems at hand.

Well that and Vince has to get healthy. His shots not falling is understandable at this point, every third week he misses games. Guy has crushed my fantasy team w/ his injuries.

[FUDU]

Thing is OJ, they have so much talent and are so deep they should be able to make up for Hedo.

I mean they didn't replace him w/ one guy, they replaced him w/ four guys and having those four guys should allow them to match-up against anyone.

Isn't replacing him with 3-4 guys as opposed to one a bit of the problem though eye? I mean you cannot play all 3-4 of those guys at once to take advantage of all their individual pros that Hedo had. I don't watch enough of them right now to know how all 4 of those guys are fitting in from day to day which is why I ask. Similar to a team having 5 volume scores in a game in which there is one ball to play with, is kind of what I am getting at except in terms of multiple players with different set of skill replacing one guy with most of those skills.

[papacass]

SVG has to be that guy Cass.

He has that get in players faces intangible Brown so annoyingly lacks. The question is, whether or not he can put it all together in a calculated and balanced way or are his emotions going to backfire and add to the problems at hand.

Well that and Vince has to get healthy. His shots not falling is understandable at this point, every third week he misses games. Guy has crushed my fantasy team w/ his injuries.

The double-edged sword that is SVG. At his worst, he's everything Shaq has ever said about him. He can kill a team with his meltdowns. At his best, he can unite and fire up a team like few other coaches who don't splice in Buddhist philosophy. To get a 59-win team last year to believe that nobody was taking them seriously and nobody respected them, that was a masterful coaching job. To say nothing of his tactical grasp of the game, which was on full display when he was embarrassing MB right off the court for six games last spring.

Saying "Vince has to get healthy" is like saying "Shaq needs to lose a few pounds." VC's injuries, Shaq's Santa belly, it's all kind of endemic at this point.

[papacass]

Thing is OJ, they have so much talent and are so deep they should be able to make up for Hedo.

I mean they didn't replace him w/ one guy, they replaced him w/ four guys and having those four guys should allow them to match-up against anyone.

Isn't replacing him with 3-4 guys as opposed to one a bit of the problem though eye? I mean you cannot play all 3-4 of those guys at once to take advantage of all their individual pros that Hedo had. I don't watch enough of them right now to know how all 4 of those guys are fitting in from day to day which is why I ask. Similar to a team having 5 volume scores in a game in which there is one ball to play with, is kind of what I am getting at except in terms of multiple players with different set of skill replacing one guy with most of those skills.

What they're missing from the loss of Hedo is a 6'-10" point forward who can run an offense. When Jameer went down last year, it actually helped them, because Hedo had to take over the point pretty much on a full-time basis. That's why Hedo was their special sauce. A 6'-10" forward who can run a P&R with 6'-11" Dewey. That's just plain unfair.

You just don't find a lot of guys with Hedo's size who have the handle to play point-anything. You can bring in 3-4 guys who have the skills to contribute on a given night, but the net result won't be what Hedo brought to the Magic.

Again, refusing to sign Hedo was a sound financial move for the Magic, but a bad basketball move, IMO.

[e0y2e3]

Thing is FUDU, that Magic team matched up w/ us great, but matched up w/ the C's (+Powe and KG) and Lake Show terribly. We are looking at the Magic through C-Town colored glasses.

Now w/ those four players they have a guy who can actually bring the ball to the hole in Vince (if he decides to start doing so again), which they sorely missed last year. Bass gives them a guy who can get physical at the four, which they sorely lacked last year. J-Will gives them a backup PG who can actually run the show, which they didn't have last year and Ryan Anderson gives them the ability to do some fun lineups w/ him and Rashard on the floor together should they choose to.

That said, until these guys all buy into the fact that they are so flexible as a team it is terrifying and decide to play their roles none of that matters.

Oh and Pietrus and Meer having shitty years doesn't help.

[OldDawg]

Thing is OJ, they have so much talent and are so deep they should be able to make up for Hedo.

I mean they didn't replace him w/ one guy, they replaced him w/ four guys and having those four guys should allow them to match-up against anyone.

Isn't replacing him with 3-4 guys as opposed to one a bit of the problem though eye? I mean you cannot play all 3-4 of those guys at once to take advantage of all their individual pros that Hedo had. I don't watch enough of them right now to know how all 4 of those guys are fitting in from day to day which is why I ask. Similar to a team having 5 volume scores in a game in which there is one ball to play with, is kind of what I am getting at except in terms of multiple players with different set of skill replacing one guy with most of those skills.

What they're missing from the loss of Hedo is a 6'-10" point forward who can run an offense. When Jameer went down last year, it actually helped them, because Hedo had to take over the point pretty much on a full-time basis. That's why Hedo was their special sauce. A 6'-10" forward who can run a P&R with 6'-11" Dewey. That's just plain unfair.

You just don't find a lot of guys with Hedo's size who have the handle to play point-anything. You can bring in 3-4 guys who have the skills to contribute on a given night, but the net result won't be what Hedo brought to the Magic.

Again, refusing to sign Hedo was a sound financial move for the Magic, but a bad basketball move, IMO.

This.
TurkeyGlue was the glue of that team. You don't replace what he did for that team. He had the "synergy" effect --- making the "whole" greater than "the sum of the parts." He made everyone else better. And "everyone else" was pretty good to begin with. He was that team's chemistry. He created all the match-up decisions for opponents. He was perfect for the Magic, and they for him. For me, I wish the Cavs had put LBJ on him instead of making him the designated help defender. I was shocked that the Magic let him get away. Carter, who only makes himself better, is no replacement for TurkeyGlue if you want to win it all.

[OldDawg]

We are looking at the Magic through C-Town colored glasses.

Guilty. But they are the only glasses I own.

However, if you look at the Cavs off-season, the front office was looking at the Cavs through Magic-colored glasses.

[Orenthal]

SVG has to be that guy Cass.

My ... sentence about SVG having his hands full didn't end that way originally. However my laziness and inability to find the right word killed my thought. Basically I agree, SVG has to be the guy to turn it around, and it will probably be due to the players looking at the guy like he has gone completely insane. He has too many passive personalities to not be the guy to make it happen.

[FUDU]

I agree with Cass' reply to my post to eye. I see it as OK fine the Magic have a lot of options and depth there now but you cannot play all four of Hedo's replacements at once, at least not with Howard on the floor....yet you could play Hedo and Hedo could do a lot of that stuff (even though not all of it).

I also agree with the take that this is the Magic's short term hiccup for this season any way, I think they can iron out some of their problems. But ultimately IMO the addition of Vince will not help them against us. If we cannot get by the Magic Vince will have little to do with it.

[e0y2e3]

FUDU, Hedo didn't kill the Lake Show or the Celtics like he did us. He also wasn't guarded by a guy six inches shorter than him by those teams.

Do I think they should have kept him and brought in depth to fix their issues, yeah, but reality prevented that.

Pretending like Hedo made them a match-up nightmare for the other big time contenders is disingenuous. Christ, they took seven games to beat a C's w/ out KG and Powe and w/ Scal getting playoff minutes.

Not to mention that Hedo's slip this year could be as much because of age as team. The Raptors run a Euro offense he should thrive in.

Hedo couldn't play backup PG, couldn't get to the rim, couldn't play physical against a Ron Ron, Ariza, LBJ or Pierce, couldn't play a physical four behind Rashard, etc.

Their roster is better on paper right now. Vince regressing, injuries and the attitudes are the issue.

Chemistry is nice and all, but if you are going to get beat up by two of the big three it is pointless.

And Hedo leaving isn't why Dewey has become one of the biggest headcases in tAssociation.

[rebelwithoutaclue]

Agree in the sense of a business decision with Hedo. Toronto gave him a deal that Orlando, even prior to the Carter deal, would have been silly to make. The fact that the one guy that was a major part of replacing Hedo is the cancer known as Vince Carter, offsets the wise business move.

Well, that and the fact they agreed to pay Brandon Bass and Marcin Gortat $52 million.

Cue Bill Simmons doing his Hubie Brown impersoniation: "Look when you've got a chance to get players like Gortat and Bass for $52 million, you have to do it." Almost as bad a contract combo as Villanueva/Gordon for $90 million.

Magic have too many talented guys that aren't quite talented enough to make it work or smart enough to fit together seamlessly without complaining. Throw in Cancer Carter and Dewey doing the Tim Duncan/Rasheed Wallace face 20 times a game and the train is off the tracks. That's what happens when you get rid of an unselfish facilitator/matchup nightmare for a regular, soft, me-first gunner AND THEN sign a bunch of role players to big contracts (inflating their ego) and then not playing them. Shoulda just paid Hedo and kept Courtney Lee. That would have kept the TEAM together.

[British_Pharaoh]

I am also surprised Orlando are lagging

I thought VC would help offset the loss of Turkoglu and didn't expect a much of a drop off even though Turkey was very instrumental in their season last year.
Injuries have played their part.

[Frank Duffy]

You are forgetting about this year.

Tax Bill doesn't even get processed until 2/1.

Good point. Shaq, D Jackson and Jawad for AJ and GA works according to the trade machine, and only adds about $5M this year. (Of course Shaq comes back - I don't think we can afford to lose either Shaq or Z this year.)

Say Arenas's knee looks ok in the MRIs. Do you think Antawauan is necessary and sufficient? If so, this is out there. Will Shaq stand for it? Can you get GA to knock a few mill off per year in return for agreeing not to try to void? Lots of angles, good and bad, we obviously will never know about.

Will the bald one come up with something better?

[noles1]

Shaq and Agent Zero on the same team... yeah I don't see that playing out.

As for VC, bust him on his ass once and he folds up like a dog that knows he fucked up.

Magic better watch that Round 1 matchup... that team looks like a disaster. It's early but the next month teams should be rounding into some shape (in Shaq's, it's just round) and start to show some flashes. Watching SAS play lately, I have begun to see some positive signs from them.

Cavs and Lakers on Thursday will be really interesting to watch. Are the Lakers going to be at full strength?

[Ea$t $ide]

FUDU, Hedo didn't kill the Lake Show or the Celtics like he did us. He also wasn't guarded by a guy six inches shorter than him by those teams.

Pretending like Hedo made them a match-up nightmare for the other big time contenders is disingenuous. Christ, they took seven games to beat a C's w/ out KG and Powe and w/ Scal getting playoff minutes.

Hedo averaged 17 a game v Cleveland, 16 a game v Boston and 18 a game v the Lakers in last years playoffs and Finals...

He was tough on all 3....

[aoxo1]

FUDU, Hedo didn't kill the Lake Show or the Celtics like he did us. He also wasn't guarded by a guy six inches shorter than him by those teams.

Pretending like Hedo made them a match-up nightmare for the other big time contenders is disingenuous. Christ, they took seven games to beat a C's w/ out KG and Powe and w/ Scal getting playoff minutes.

Hedo averaged 17 a game v Cleveland, 16 a game v Boston and 18 a game v the Lakers in last years playoffs and Finals...

He was tough on all 3....

Because we all know that a player's impact, especially one who handles the ball so much, can be neatly captured in ppg.

[RickNashEquilibrium]

Shaq and Agent Zero on the same team... yeah I don't see that playing out.

As for VC, bust him on his ass once and he folds up like a dog that knows he fucked up.

Magic better watch that Round 1 matchup... that team looks like a disaster. It's early but the next month teams should be rounding into some shape (in Shaq's, it's just round) and start to show some flashes. Watching SAS play lately, I have begun to see some positive signs from them.

Cavs and Lakers on Thursday will be really interesting to watch. Are the Lakers going to be at full strength?

Don't know if SAS has shown that many positive signs lately. They lost back to back games to Charlotte (blowout) and Memphis and have had a very soft, home heavy schedule. They also aren't the road warriors they've been in the past. Granted, they still play the hard nosed defense Popovich preaches, but much like Boston, I want to see what these guys do when their schedule becomes a meat grinder come Feb. They have 12 out of 15 away then circle back for an east coast swing in March. If they play >.500 through that stretch, color me impressed.

[noles1]

16-6 since early November and I think at this point we have seen enough of the Memphis/Ok City/Charlotte's to know they are pretty solid teams at home.

That Feburary "Rodeo Road Trip" is when the Spurs usually start putting things together. This year with the Jefferson acquisition it was imperative for them to get it kick-started a bit earlier. I think when all is said and done, they'll be in the discussion along with Denver, Dallas and, obviously, the Lakers.

[Ea$t $ide]

FUDU, Hedo didn't kill the Lake Show or the Celtics like he did us. He also wasn't guarded by a guy six inches shorter than him by those teams.

Pretending like Hedo made them a match-up nightmare for the other big time contenders is disingenuous. Christ, they took seven games to beat a C's w/ out KG and Powe and w/ Scal getting playoff minutes.

Hedo averaged 17 a game v Cleveland, 16 a game v Boston and 18 a game v the Lakers in last years playoffs and Finals...

He was tough on all 3....

Because we all know that a player's impact, especially one who handles the ball so much, can be neatly captured in ppg.

OK,

He averaged 16 ppg 5.3 assists 2.85 reb versus Bos. 47% fg 39% 3pfg. Made 11 - 3 pointers.

17 ppg 6.6 assists 6.3 reb versus Cle. 30% fg 36% 3pfg. Made 9 - 3 pointers

and

18 ppg 3.8 assists 4.6 reb versus LA. 49% fg 50% 3pfg. Made 7 - 3 pointers

Do you think he was an especially bad matchup against Cleveland compared to Boston and LA based on these numbers?

[aoxo1]

FUDU, Hedo didn't kill the Lake Show or the Celtics like he did us. He also wasn't guarded by a guy six inches shorter than him by those teams.

Pretending like Hedo made them a match-up nightmare for the other big time contenders is disingenuous. Christ, they took seven games to beat a C's w/ out KG and Powe and w/ Scal getting playoff minutes.

Hedo averaged 17 a game v Cleveland, 16 a game v Boston and 18 a game v the Lakers in last years playoffs and Finals...

He was tough on all 3....

Because we all know that a player's impact, especially one who handles the ball so much, can be neatly captured in ppg.

OK,

He averaged 16 ppg 5.3 assists 2.85 reb versus Bos. 47% fg 39% 3pfg. Made 11 - 3 pointers.

17 ppg 6.6 assists 6.3 reb versus Cle. 30% fg 36% 3pfg. Made 9 - 3 pointers

and

18 ppg 3.8 assists 4.6 reb versus LA. 49% fg 50% 3pfg. Made 7 - 3 pointers

Do you think he was an especially bad matchup against Cleveland compared to Boston and LA based on these numbers?

No, I think it based on the fact that I watched all three series last year and witnessed the mismatch of a 6'3 Delonte West being forced to defend him over and over again, causing the entire defense to be scrambled nearly every time down the court.

[RickNashEquilibrium]

16-6 since early November and I think at this point we have seen enough of the Memphis/Ok City/Charlotte's to know they are pretty solid teams at home.

That Feburary "Rodeo Road Trip" is when the Spurs usually start putting things together. This year with the Jefferson acquisition it was imperative for them to get it kick-started a bit earlier. I think when all is said and done, they'll be in the discussion along with Denver, Dallas and, obviously, the Lakers.

Just saw on the wire that SAS beat the Hornets in NO. Game was a blowout until the 4th. Interesting line: Hornets kept SAS to <43% from the field which if you're the oppposition, you have a good chance of beating the Spurs. Too bad NO sent them to the line 38 times and made 24 attempts which is still an awful 63%. NO only shot 12. Reverse home cookin'?

[Ea$t $ide]

FUDU, Hedo didn't kill the Lake Show or the Celtics like he did us. He also wasn't guarded by a guy six inches shorter than him by those teams.

Pretending like Hedo made them a match-up nightmare for the other big time contenders is disingenuous. Christ, they took seven games to beat a C's w/ out KG and Powe and w/ Scal getting playoff minutes.

Hedo averaged 17 a game v Cleveland, 16 a game v Boston and 18 a game v the Lakers in last years playoffs and Finals...

He was tough on all 3....

Because we all know that a player's impact, especially one who handles the ball so much, can be neatly captured in ppg.

OK,

He averaged 16 ppg 5.3 assists 2.85 reb versus Bos. 47% fg 39% 3pfg. Made 11 - 3 pointers.

17 ppg 6.6 assists 6.3 reb versus Cle. 30% fg 36% 3pfg. Made 9 - 3 pointers

and

18 ppg 3.8 assists 4.6 reb versus LA. 49% fg 50% 3pfg. Made 7 - 3 pointers

Do you think he was an especially bad matchup against Cleveland compared to Boston and LA based on these numbers?

No, I think it based on the fact that I watched all three series last year and witnessed the mismatch of a 6'3 Delonte West being forced to defend him over and over again, causing the entire defense to be scrambled nearly every time down the court.

I'm not saying he didn't cause big problems for the Cavaliers mind you...Just saying that it's NOT disingenuous to say he caused problems for LA and Boston too. The numbers don't lie...IMO he caused MORE problems for the Cavaliers because of the size mismatch, as you point out. But I think the point of the conversation was that the Magic don't miss Turkoglu which, in my humble opinion, is not true.

[e0y2e3]

No, it is disingenous, wake up and think for christ sake. You are taking my point and blatantly distorting it. In my post I highlighted the weaknesses that Hedo didn't solve for the Magic and the other two teams have the ability to expose that (which you just decided to not read).

7 games, an easy series win and a loss, which of these is not like the other? Hedo tore apart our team defense and broke down the entire system. Hedo allowed Rashard and Dewey to get wide open and equally as importantly West was focusing so hard on playing him on D he was not himself on offense.

Throwing PPG out there is bullshit, watch the series, he was a different beast against us because of our lack of length and Browns insistence to use that fucking LBJ free safety D.

Seriously.

You come w/ PPG on this topic then you toss out FG % and Dimes?

Plus the Celtics were (yet a-fucking-gain) w/ out there physical inside presences in Powe and KG, both of whom would have crushed Rashard at the four the same way Pau did. Hedo was a nice player and the glue player and he and Rashard together killed us because we didn't have a four that was athletic enough to play Rashard and score and we were guarding Hedo w/ D-West, forcing Mo to try and guard a combo of Pietrus and Alston and letting LBJ run around the court alone. Remember all of those wide open looks Pietrus got? That's what happens when you cannot guard a team player for player and your best back court defender is forced to guard a front court player.

The Lake Show and Celtics had fours that could score, had length to guard Hedo and Rashard and it showed (and didn't run our retarded d). The complete lack of a player that could take the ball to the hoop on the Magic killed them against the Lake Show and if KG and Powe play they lose to the Celtics in five because KG could stick in front of Rashard and could score on him at will in the post.

Think before posting, please.

[e0y2e3]

And I NEVER stated the Magic do not miss Hedo.

I stated point blank they had serious weaknesses last year that were exposed against the other contenders and in an ideal world they would have kept Hedo and fixed those weaknesses, they couldn't due to reality.

That said, the roster is better and far more flexible on paper now. They can go big, small, outside focused, physical, etc. They didn't have any of that roster flexiblity last year and considering that this forum spent most of the off-season masturbating to the possibilities of our roster flexibility ignoring the fact that the Magic were not flexible and now are is retarded.

I've outlined the problems w/ their roster 100x in this very thread.

Next time you respond to one of my points though please try reading my post and understanding what I am writing. Otherwise don't reply to me. We've been over this before.

If you have questions about what I have written, fine, but missing the point by miles because you are picking what you are reading very liberally is a waste of everyone's time.

And this is the second time you have done so.

PS: I got ten bucks you haven't watched more than two Magic games in the last two years that didn't involve the Cavs

[Ea$t $ide]

And I NEVER stated the Magic do not miss Hedo.

I stated point blank they had serious weaknesses last year that were exposed against the other contenders and in an ideal world they would have kept Hedo and fixed those weaknesses, they couldn't due to reality.

That said, the roster is better and far more flexible on paper now. They can go big, small, outside focused, physical, etc. They didn't have any of that roster flexiblity last year and considering that this forum spent most of the off-season masturbating to the possibilities of our roster flexibility ignoring the fact that the Magic were not flexible and now are is retarded.

I've outlined the problems w/ their roster 100x in this very thread.

Next time you respond to one of my points though please try reading my post and understanding what I am writing. Otherwise don't reply to me. We've been over this before.

If you have questions about what I have written, fine, but missing the point by miles because you are picking what you are reading very liberally is a waste of everyone's time.

And this is the second time you have done so.

PS: I got ten bucks you haven't watched more than two Magic games in the last two years that didn't involve the Cavs

Hey, little man...your little man disease is your problem, not mine...i'm a fucking idiot, except i'm right...and you're a fucking genius, except you're wrong...you deal with that little fella....you can swear all you want at me...i doubt YOU could dribble a basketball...let alone watch a game and break one down...you're a turd...and your posts suck little guy....


hope that helps!!

[papacass]

Eye, East Side.... cool it. You guys want to war, war over PM. Doing so here is going to get the thread locked.

[aoxo1]

Do you think he was an especially bad matchup against Cleveland compared to Boston and LA based on these numbers?

I'm not saying he didn't cause big problems for the Cavaliers mind you...Just saying that it's NOT disingenuous to say he caused problems for LA and Boston too. The numbers don't lie...IMO he caused MORE problems for the Cavaliers because of the size mismatch, as you point out. But I think the point of the conversation was that the Magic don't miss Turkoglu which, in my humble opinion, is not true.

OK, I think we're done here.

[e0y2e3]

East Side, just so you know turning to little man arguments and ignoring all of the points one makes (as well as refusing to read said persons posts in there entirety while commenting on them) is a sign of idiocracy.

If you want to contribute, read think and post. Don't snip small points and post pointless replies.

This isn't fucking rocket science.

And FTR Cass, if this forum becomes a cannot be colorful while posting place that is fine, I just won't be taking part. The thing that has always made TCF is it following what CS was and people being able to call people stupid when they are stupid. If you want a change in direction, fine w/ me, but the reason I came here was the old school rules that this place was founded upon.

And if you are going to start taking issue w/ calling stupid posts stupid then I formally request you start deleting one line idiocracies.

This started w/ locking the Gil gun charges thread and seems to be a new theme.