Cavs @ Golden State

[Frank Duffy]

Mrs. Duffy and I are just back from the game, a really fun time. Scanned the thread and you guys caught all the major points. Monta is almost unstoppable one on one. Delonte and LB both tried and did well, but M. still scored. Only way to stop him was to steer him toward a big and double, and he didn't pass much, just squawked about not getting calls. Curry isn't quite as smooth yet, but showed flashes. Magette played well, so long as he didn't try to shoot from outside. Morrow can shoot, but good one on one D negated him.

Jawad made a lot of open shots - can he really do that consistently? - but his D was uninspired. Brown and LB were constantly coaching him. Anyone who doesn't think AV is valuable is nuts. Delonte was inconsistent, sometimes looking sharp and deadly, sometimes not. Once, he committed a foul and the sub buzzer sounded, and he glared at Brown until he realized he wasn't coming out. He was into it, hopping off the bench when he was out of the game and greeting the players coming off the floor. He really should never shoot 3s. He's deadly from 12 to 16', and 3s just stretch him out.

Mrs. Duffy remarked that tv adds 10 pounds and Shaq looks much better in person. She's always right about stuff like that.

All in all, an enjoyable NBA game. Makes me rethink my boycott of Chris Cohan.

The only thing you probably couldn't see on tv was the electricity of this team. The pregame layup line (and ass grabbing) was like a rock concert, or one of those allstar rap things at the VMAs, guys bumping and dancing and totally into it. LB striding calmly through the center of it, standing at the announcers' table at midcourt and underhanding a swish (it took 2 tries), tossing balls up to himself to jam. Only Z stands apart.

[Ea$t $ide]

First team to 30 wins despite playing the most road games in the league

[British_Pharaoh]

Back to even in the loss column with Bawston
and 2 games clear now. Feels good
However Atlanta looking like real Finals contenders. I mean I know we devoured them twice back to back, but they've handled Boston twice and Orlando.

Wish I could have watched last night though.

[JCoz]

Back to even in the loss column with Bawston
and 2 games clear now. Feels good
However Atlanta looking like real Finals contenders. I mean I know we devoured them twice back to back, but they've handled Boston twice and Orlando.

Wish I could have watched last night though.

I would caution you not to mistake a team matching up well with another for being a title contender.

Atlanta has matched up well with boston for several years now and they are a better team than they were three years ago overall, but they are no where near a title contender IMO.

[papacass]

Atlanta has matched up well with boston for several years now and they are a better team than they were three years ago overall, but they are no where near a title contender IMO.

If the Hawks run into the Cavs again in the playoffs, they probably won't look like a title contender. The Cavs are too big and too LeBronned for the Hawks to handle over seven games.

But if they want to keep beating the C's and Magic, fantastic. Maybe the Cavs can get a furlong between themselves and the chase pack.

[Hi Oktane]

I would caution you not to mistake a team matching up well with another for being a title contender.

Atlanta has matched up well with boston for several years now and they are a better team than they were three years ago overall, but they are no where near a title contender IMO.

ALL about match ups. TBO learned as much last year. Hence the incredibly versatile (even if far from most "talented") roster we have today.

[papacass]

One more thing: Don Nelson really screwed his team last night.

The Warriors outplayed the Cavs for most of the fourth quarter and made the game a lot closer than it should have been. A few Cleveland brain farts helped matters for GS. LBJ bricks an ill-advised three with the Cavs clinging to a three-point lead inside of 10 seconds. The Warriors, a team loaded with shooters, gets the rebound, and I believe it was Monta Ellis that wanted to call a timeout.

But Nelson waves the timeout off, and Ellis had to go from signaling for a timeout to hustling the ball up the floor with the clock winding down. The Cavs closed on him and he had to chuck it behind him to Stephen Curry, who promptly hoisted a 40-foot airball at the buzzer.

Unless the Warriors were out of timeouts and Ellis was channeling his inner C-Webb, that was a train wreck of a final possession. The player had the right idea. The coach was so obsessed with beating the defense back down the floor that he herded his lemmings right off the cliff.

At the very least, Ellis and Nellie should have been on the same page. They obviously weren't. It really sucks to see a coach veto a player who is trying to make the right basketball move.

It turns out that Al Davis isn't the only irrelevant old coot running a sports team in Oakland. The Warriors need to part ways with Nellie. He had his moments with Run TMC, resurrecting the Mavs and the '07 run with Baron Davis. But it's time for him to hang up his whistle.

[CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07!]

The Warriors had a full timeout remaining. It was actually Curry who tried to call it, and upon Nelson waving him down, he pushed the ball up to Monta, who then gave it back to him.

Brent Barry criticized the move after the game, saying "I've never been a coach, Don Nelson has coached thousands of games, how is it possible he makes such a call?" (paraphrased).

With 5 seconds remaining, he definitely should have taken the time to draw up a play. He may very well have cost his team a huge win.

[e0y2e3]

Nellie doesn't care.

He was already thinking about his post game scotch and cigar.

He's mentally checked out right now. Could care less what happens. Retirement comes at the end of this meaningless season and he is already there, sitting on the beach sipping a Mai Thai.

[papacass]

He'd better retire after this season. Ellis, Curry and Randolph are all talented basketball players. They're going to be ruined for the rest of their careers if Nelson has control of them for much longer.

Already, I wonder if Ellis is conditioned to do much more besides sprint to the offensive end and chuck up shots. If a real coach ever shows up in GS, a coach who understands that it's not 1980 and Doug Moe isn't on the other bench, he's going to have one heluva knot to untangle with some of these guys.

[e0y2e3]

Already, I wonder if Ellis is conditioned to do much more besides sprint to the offensive end and chuck up shots. If a real coach ever shows up in GS, a coach who understands that it's not 1980 and Doug Moe isn't on the other bench, he's going to have one heluva knot to untangle with some of these guys.

Yeup.

And Imagine being a Warriors fan and having to read stuff like this (Nelson has one year remaining on his contract after this year, but much of the national press thinks he is gone, if not it could be rinse lather and repeat next year)

Don Nelson Tells Warriors He'll Work for Free in 2011-12

9/25/2009 5:40 PM ET By Matt Steinmetz


Matt Steinmetz
Matt Steinmetz is a Senior NBA Writer for FanHouse

OAKLAND, Calif. -- Warriors coach Don Nelson's got two more years remaining on his contract, and there are some skeptics who don't think he'll make it that long.

But Nelson, apparently, wants to be with the Warriors longer than that. And he says he's willing to do it for free.

Nelson said on Friday afternoon that he's made an offer to Warriors president Robert Rowell that he will work for free for the Warriors in 2011-12, in whatever capacity the Warriors decide, as a way of giving back to the organization he's worked for two different times during the course of his career.

"I told Bobby a week ago that after this contract is up, I would like to give the Warriors one more year," Nelson said. "It will cost the team nothing. Whatever they want me to do, for one more year, and not take a salary. Whatever it is. If it's coaching, I'd do that. Carrying bags, whatever. But I would give them one year at the end of this to say 'Thanks.' I appreciate that extension they gave me. They didn't have to do that."

Nelson and the Warriors were at odds last season over a contract extension, but Nelson eventually secured a two-year deal worth $12 million -- for this year and 2010-11.

Nelson, who needs 24 more wins to surpass Lenny Wilkens as the all-time winningest NBA coach, said he had been thinking this summer of making this kind of gesture.

"This is something I've wanted to do," Nelson said. "The league's been good to me. It's made me a wealthy man. As it turns out, I'm going to be here (Golden State) longer than any place else (either Milwaukee or Dallas)."

Nelson acknowledged that Rowell didn't respond whether or not he'd take the coach up on his offer.

"I think he was in shock," Nelson said. "He didn't speak. I don't think he's heard that one before."

[e0y2e3]

PS: Durant is the anti-Monte

KDonhoops: RT @dailythunder: This needs mentioning. Because it's INSANE. RT @dylanmgoforth Durant has 153 points on 85 shots in January. Unreal.

[diminishingskills]

And Imagine being a Warriors fan and having to read stuff like this (Nelson has one year remaining on his contract after this year, but much of the national press thinks he is gone, if not it could be rinse lather and repeat next year)

Don Nelson Tells Warriors He'll Work for Free in 2011-12

They'd still be paying too much for him.

Still can't get over how stupid the non-time out was last night. The Cavs were already back on D -- it wasn't like they were going to be eat in a footrace to the other end of the floor. Even if so ... congratulations, Golden State! You just lost by one point!

They burned most of the five seconds just getting the ball up the court, leaving Curry to heave the ball from somewhere on Nob Hill.

I think you may be onto something, Eye. Nellie was probably thinking "fuck this, I'm not going to risk an overtime here, that'll mean another 20 minutes before I can drink". Had Curry actually made his shot, he probably would have gotten fined.

[British_Pharaoh]

Back to even in the loss column with Bawston
and 2 games clear now. Feels good
However Atlanta looking like real Finals contenders. I mean I know we devoured them twice back to back, but they've handled Boston twice and Orlando.

Wish I could have watched last night though.

I would caution you not to mistake a team matching up well with another for being a title contender.

Atlanta has matched up well with boston for several years now and they are a better team than they were three years ago overall, but they are no where near a title contender IMO.

I clearly said Finals contender

[peeker643]

And Imagine being a Warriors fan and having to read stuff like this (Nelson has one year remaining on his contract after this year, but much of the national press thinks he is gone, if not it could be rinse lather and repeat next year)

Don Nelson Tells Warriors He'll Work for Free in 2011-12

They'd still be paying too much for him.

Still can't get over how stupid the non-time out was last night. The Cavs were already back on D -- it wasn't like they were going to be eat in a footrace to the other end of the floor. Even if so ... congratulations, Golden State! You just lost by one point!

They burned most of the five seconds just getting the ball up the court, leaving Curry to heave the ball from somewhere on Nob Hill.

I think you may be onto something, Eye. Nellie was probably thinking "fuck this, I'm not going to risk an overtime here, that'll mean another 20 minutes before I can drink". Had Curry actually made his shot, he probably would have gotten fined.

Nob Hill

I bet they call it that because "The Cleveland Fan Tribe Forum Posters Hill" is just too flipping long for a street sign.



Sorry.

Back to Oliver Reed's disinterested coaching technique.

Any type of play call there may have been a shock to the system of those guys on the floor. I swear timeouts are just for them to get a couple sucks of oxygen and some electrolytes for their next heat.

[diminishingskills]

Any type of play call there may have been a shock to the system of those guys on the floor. I swear timeouts are just for them to get a couple sucks of oxygen and some electrolytes for their next heat.

Wouldn't doubt it. But much of the value of the timeout was in being able to advance the ball 40 feet without using up any clock, which is kind of important when you have only five seconds to work with. Even if Nellie's play were nothing more than "Monta, if you get it, jack it up. If he's covered, then Curry, you do the same thing," they at least would have had more time to get that shot.

I know that it is easier to coach a game from your living room than it is from the sidelines, but this one seems like a truly boneheaded move.

[peeker643]

Any type of play call there may have been a shock to the system of those guys on the floor. I swear timeouts are just for them to get a couple sucks of oxygen and some electrolytes for their next heat.

Wouldn't doubt it. But much of the value of the timeout was in being able to advance the ball 40 feet without using up any clock, which is kind of important when you have only five seconds to work with. Even if Nellie's play were nothing more than "Monta, if you get it, jack it up. If he's covered, then Curry, you do the same thing," they at least would have had more time to get that shot.

I know that it is easier to coach a game from your living room than it is from the sidelines, but this one seems like a truly boneheaded move.

I agree with that. I was really more interested in the Nob Hill thing.

I'm saying that for the entire game I wondered why Nellie was paired with this team. The last few seconds left me scratching my head but not really stunned.

[papacass]

I told Bobby a week ago that after this contract is up, I would like to give the Warriors one more year," Nelson said. "It will cost the team nothing. Whatever they want me to do, for one more year, and not take a salary. Whatever it is. If it's coaching, I'd do that. Carrying bags, whatever. But I would give them one year at the end of this to say 'Thanks.' I appreciate that extension they gave me. They didn't have to do that."

What NBA coach says that? "Carrying bags, whatever"? Seriously?

Either senility is creeping in, or Nellie truly has nothing waiting for him after basketball besides the reaper. In which case, I feel sorry for him.

But probably not as sorry as I feel for the players who are being taught a perverted version of basketball by a coach who still treats the three-point line like a newfangled toy.

[Gradysmanldy]

Just a note on the earlier Hawks tawk: (I watched that whole game)

Atlanta is a very talented team. I think that in a normal NBA year, when there aren't HUGE heavyweights like Boston and LA (and healthy Orlando) they would be easily be considered Elite. 4-5 freakishly athletic kids on that team. (Smith, Johnson, Horford, and Crawford are all ballers)

The problem (and they noted it when they played us) is that they tend to play 1-1 ball. When they get motion in their offense and share the ball, they are downright scary. (And that was what they were using to get people open looks earlier in the year when they were crushing people) Lately, they've been more inclined to just take turns.....and the reason it worked last night is because Joe Johnson got absolutely silly into video game mode.

Some teams DO match up well with others, and Atlanta has been a tough out for the Celtics for years. If I was Boston, I would be terrified of a playoff matchup with them. (They took them 7 with a healthy garnett and Atlanta w/o Crawford)

Fun team to watch, though. Very balanced, can hit you from multiple angles. They just dont match up well with the Cavs....for multiple reasons.

[papacass]

Windy had also made the point that the Hawks are terrible at playing P&R defense. The Cavs get burned on high P&Rs a lot, but ATL might be even worse. They don't make switch-offs well at all, so there are tons of mismatches created when you spring the ballhandler with a high screen. Then someone has to come help, which leaves someone else open on the perimeter.

Shades of what the Magic did to the Cavs in the ECF. Small guy guarding tall guy, so another tall guy has to shade over to help out, which means the tall guy's man is wide open for a pass. If the uncovered guy can shoot or penetrate, you have your result. Swish or foul.

The whole notion that the Hawks are a team of good individual players, but not yet a great team unit, is accurate. Let them go mano-a-mano, they might succeed. Force them into a system attack, and their shortcomings are revealed.

[RickNashEquilibrium]

Lucky me. My take on last nights non-finish got run by 'Bawful on today's Worst of the Night: Quick Hits Edition. I tell ya, he might have a ridiculously humorous and abstract take on all things NBA, but him and Dan put together one of the best comprehensive NBA blogs out there.

/shameless plug

[RickNashEquilibrium]

Windy had also made the point that the Hawks are terrible at playing P&R defense. The Cavs get burned on high P&Rs a lot, but ATL might be even worse. They don't make switch-offs well at all, so there are tons of mismatches created when you spring the ballhandler with a high screen. Then someone has to come help, which leaves someone else open on the perimeter.

Shades of what the Magic did to the Cavs in the ECF. Small guy guarding tall guy, so another tall guy has to shade over to help out, which means the tall guy's man is wide open for a pass. If the uncovered guy can shoot or penetrate, you have your result. Swish or foul.

The whole notion that the Hawks are a team of good individual players, but not yet a great team unit, is accurate. Let them go mano-a-mano, they might succeed. Force them into a system attack, and their shortcomings are revealed.

A similar case study could be applied to the Phoenix Suns yearly losses to San Antonio. Lots of individual players who happen to play with an all-time great PG in Nash. They can run average to good teams out of the gym any given night, but put them up against a team like SA who can plug in players to dictate the tempo and Phoenix's style is completely halted. Granted, it takes a good coach to scheme a D around a team like Phoenix, but the fact remains. While Atlanta has a team of ballers, it makes it easy for coaches like Pop, Phil, and Brown to come up with a game plan to stop em.

[aoxo1]

A similar case study could be applied to the Phoenix Suns yearly losses to San Antonio. Lots of individual players who happen to play with an all-time great PG in Nash. They can run average to good teams out of the gym any given night, but put them up against a team like SA who can plug in players to dictate the tempo and Phoenix's style is completely halted. Granted, it takes a good coach to scheme a D around a team like Phoenix, but the fact remains. While Atlanta has a team of ballers, it makes it easy for coaches like Pop, Phil, and Brown to come up with a game plan to stop em.

Nonsense.

[RickNashEquilibrium]

A similar case study could be applied to the Phoenix Suns yearly losses to San Antonio. Lots of individual players who happen to play with an all-time great PG in Nash. They can run average to good teams out of the gym any given night, but put them up against a team like SA who can plug in players to dictate the tempo and Phoenix's style is completely halted. Granted, it takes a good coach to scheme a D around a team like Phoenix, but the fact remains. While Atlanta has a team of ballers, it makes it easy for coaches like Pop, Phil, and Brown to come up with a game plan to stop em.

Nonsense.

You really think Atlanta is part of the class in the East? Yeah they beat the Celtics by 6 without KG and Sheed. Orlando hasn't really clicked 100% yet but has CRUSHED Atlanta both home and away. Although Atlanta has had win streaks of 7 and 6 games against above average compitition, I'm not ready to annoint them as contenders until they step up in the season that matters. What is it about Atlanta that has folks like you thinking they will take it to the next level this year? What matchup problems do they present on paper? They totally lack size and inside presence against teams with big front courts IE Cleveland, Orlando, and Boston. Let's have this discussion in May/June and I'll gladly eat crow if that comes to pass.

[e0y2e3]

I think he is referring to your suns comp.

And the fact that you just talked about Mike Brown scheming on O. That almost made me fall out of my chair.

We've been running the playoff pick and roll/LeISO offense since before time. No match-up scheming involved.

[aoxo1]

I think he is referring to your suns comp.

Yep.

In complete agreement with your assessment of ATL.

[RickNashEquilibrium]

I think he is referring to your suns comp.

Yep.

In complete agreement with your assessment of ATL.

In regards to an offense, I agree but Brown can scheme up a defense as he has in the past - Orlando series notwithstanding. EY, you and I had this discussion way back when regarding the Cavs matchup problems. At this point in time, I have to believe Brown has enough parts to not duplicate the scheme/execution of the Orlando series. We still have some trouble with the P&R, but with more bench depth this year no one will convince me this team isn't overall better than last year.

My point regarding Phoenix was much less about Nash leading that team and more about general styles of basketball that simply do not win championships. Is that unfairly broad-brushing the Hawks? Maybe, but a bunch of athletes who don't function like a well-oiled machine on both sides of the ball very will rarely make a deep playoff run without a perfect alignment of the stars. Orlando played great last year, but benefitted a ton by getting the Cavs in the ECF - A team taylor made for Orlando which is a point I conceded long ago.

[e0y2e3]

On Brown, up until the Magic series I considered him a great playoff D coach.

Now my mind will be made up this year. He fell on his face too hard to ignore.

Jury is out, but up until that moment he was great.

He still has this ridiculous tendency to find something that works in situation A and trot it out in situation B, C and D repeatedly until he gets beat so bad for it he has to change.

And if not for the suspensions the Suns would probably have a ring.

[aoxo1]

Did Phoenix lose to SA in 2005 in the WCF because they weren't capable of winning in the playoffs, or because super key player Joe Johnson missed the first two games with injury before the series shifted to Texas?

Did Phoenix lose to Dallas in 2006 in the WCF because they weren't capable of winning in the playoffs, or because they were missing super key player Amare Stoudemire for the entire season and key player Raja Bell for two games, and because it was Dallas' year before they got jobbed in the Finals?

Did Phoenix lose to SA in 2007 in the second round because they weren't capable of winning in the playoffs, or because Robert Horry broke Nash's nose, resulting in the outrageous suspensions of Amare and Diaw for the crucial game 5 and setting the stage for SA to clinch with a home game 6?

And did either of those losses to SA have more to do with the fact the Spurs were fielding the greatest 4 of all time, and it's not very close, at the peak of his powers?

That was a snake bitten Phoenix team; in a fair world, they win a title in 2005 or 2007.

[RickNashEquilibrium]

On Brown, up until the Magic series I considered him a great playoff D coach.

Now my mind will be made up this year. He fell on his face too hard to ignore.

Jury is out, but up until that moment he was great.

He still has this ridiculous tendency to find something that works in situation A and trot it out in situation B, C and D repeatedly until he gets beat so bad for it he has to change.

And if not for the suspensions the Suns would probably have a ring.

As much as I want to think Brown has the guys in place to get past Orlando and Boston, I can't get that 3rd point of yours out of my head. For a year I thought it was just young coaching mistakes on Brown's part, but the fact its been going on repeatedly is as you said, too hard to ignore.

As for the Suns winning a ring, I can concede that those teams did have a stroke of bad luck (minor understatement), but it's hard for me to agree that that run and gun style can be successfull over 4 7 games series. Teams that can step up to the next level in terms of TEAM defense just wear down teams that are predicated on a fast-pace, athletically dominated style of play. That being said, Ill agree 2006 was just unjust in hindsight. A healthy Phoenix sqaud would have highly likely got past Dallas on its way to South Beach.

Still I think the parallels are there between the 2 teams in regards to winning a 7 game series. Styles are different, approach is the same. Defenses and size get you deep in the playoffs and this year is no exception. You might have mentioned it on another thread EY, but what's your take on the Cavs current roster? Can we be successful if we stand pat or is a bonafide 4 an absolute must in order to stretch the D and give Bron/Mo space?

[e0y2e3]

Defensively I am more than fine w/ our roster as constructed.

Offensively, Feh, Bah, Humbug, Guh. We have to trade for either a stud 2 that can take the ball to the hole (I am sick of only have two guys on the roster that can do this) or a legit four to put together a real offense. Until then we are still staring down the barrel of LeISO and LePick & Pop all playoffs long. Which leads to my immense concern about running a three series gauntlet against the big three, when LBJ plays LBJ versus the world in the playoffs for just one series he is typically stupidly gassed afterward (think about it). Don't see how he can do it for three in a row. And w/ the way this roster is built we all know he is going to play LBJ versus the world on O.

-

"Hey Mo, remember when you were a dribble and pop combo guard? Well now you are going to be a spot up three point shooter and you are going to like it damnit!"

Sincerely,

His Highness

-

I still maintain it would to take a lightening strike to plow through the big three if they are balling at 100% due to the aforementioned. That said, Orlando is currently far from it w/ Dewey worrying about the officials more than the games at hand and Orlando's rotational players grumbling about shots and minutes (not to mention their injuries). Combining that w/ Boston needing to coast a little bit here due to age and we have a shot at the one seed, which is MFing huge this year.

[dmiles]

-

I still maintain it would to take a lightening strike to plow through the big three if they are balling at 100% due to the aforementioned. That said, Orlando is currently far from it w/ Dewey worrying about the officials more than the games at hand and Orlando's rotational players grumbling about shots and minutes (not to mention their injuries). Combining that w/ Boston needing to coast a little bit here due to age and we have a shot at the one seed, which is MFing huge this year.

+1, as has been mentioned here we are first to 30 wins, and have the most road games in the NBA. A quick glance at the schedule shows some interesting things...

In Feb. Boston has a 5-game west. conf. road trip with consecutive games at NO, Sactown, La Lakers, Portland and Denver. within that, the Lakers/Blazers are a back-to-back Thursday/Friday and the Nuggets are Sunday.

In March they have a mini-trip at Houston, San Antonio and Utah.

Cavs finish up the current trip and the only other west. conf. away games are NO and SA in March. Cavs do play some additional road games against teams +.500, two at Boston, one at Atlanta, and one at Orlando. Barring injuries I think the remaining schedule is in the Cavs favor. In two weeks Boston has a back-to-back at Orlando and at Atlanta. If the Celts are going to continue to have to nurse players, home court will be tough.

I'd much rather get the 8 seed, and the 4 seed and let Orlando/Boston battle it out.

[AK-ROWDY]

and if atlanta gets the 4th seed you can bet on boston not wanting the one seed after the headaches that the hawks give them

[Gradysmanldy]

This, a dozen times. If they can't get the #1 seed, can Boston do anything to avoid Atlanta in the playoffs? Seeding-wise? I tend to think the players still think they could beat the Hawks in a 7 game series, but man.....I don't.

[fundamentals]

The Cavaliers are in excellent position to earn the #1 seed in the Eastern Conference. Health is going to continue to be a issue for an aging Celtics team. I am not so sure Atlanta won't end up winning that division, which in turn might drop the Magic to the four seed.