To Pup, with love

[fundamentals]

The saga of T Mac continues. Can/would any team take him on for the remainder of this season?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... &type=lgns

[papacass]

I think Cameron Heyward would have a better chance of playing an entire football game in a helmet constructed of Waterford crystal, and finishing the game with the helmet completely intact, than any NBA team would have of getting Tracy McGrady through one month of basketball without injury.

Ralphie's dad would call T-Mac "fra-GEE-lay"

[RC]

McGrady has the same basic problem that AI has: Unreliability

You can't rely on AI because of his personality, pride and age and you can't rely on McGrady because of his personality, pride and injury history.

Unless I'm a rebuilding team that is just trying to get butts in the seats I wouldn't touch him.

[pup]

The difference is a team has never asked Allen Iverson to not sit on the bench, during the playoffs because he is such a disease.

T-Flake - Coach, can I sit with the team?
Addelman - Would hate to have someone roll into you chasing a loose ball, why don't you stay in the locker room?
T-Flake - Come on, I will be fine. Nobody is diving into our bench.
Addelman - Really T, maybe the club lounge would be good for you.
T-Flake - I can be a benefit. Help you out on some play calls and stuff.
Addelman - Christ, Tracy. Can't you take a freaking hint. I don't want you or your cancerous attitude anywhere close to this team. This is the playoffs. You know. If we play well, there is a second round to these things, and I don't think it is fair for you to ruin it for the rest of the guys.

Flash Forward to present time:

Flake - Coach I am ready to go!!!!
Addelman -

[fundamentals]

In case you missed it Pup,

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=291215010

[pup]

Sweet. Just when the Rockets were playing good ball, they will have to try to incorporate this slug into the rotation, taking them out of the mix.

[fundamentals]

Sweet. Just when the Rockets were playing good ball, they will have to try to incorporate this slug into the rotation, taking them out of the mix.

Ariza was suspended so had they go slumming

I am hopeful that "slug" ends up in Cleveland.

[swerb]

I thought this would be a thread about Varejao's +/- ... higher than LeBron's right now.

[FUDU]

BTW The Heat Miser is one of the top 3 all time avatars in Internet history.

[OldDawg]

BTW The Heat Miser is one of the top 3 all time avatars in Internet history.

OK, you got me. What are the other two?

[Shadow Scars]

Ralphie's dad would call T-Mac "fra-GEE-lay"

I didn't know T-Mac was French..

[papacass]

Ralphie's dad would call T-Mac "fra-GEE-lay"

I didn't know T-Mac was French..

Italian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJSmmbmJCLw

[mattvan1]

Here's our chance

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4777423

The Houston Rockets have granted Tracy McGrady an indefinite leave from the team and will work with his representatives to find a new home for the seven-time All-Star via trade, according to sources close to the process. ...............

[pup]

Here's our chance

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4777423

The Houston Rockets have granted Tracy McGrady an indefinite leave from the team and will work with his representatives to find a new home for the seven-time All-Star via trade, according to sources close to the process. ...............

[rebelwithoutaclue]

Here's our chance

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4777423

The Houston Rockets have granted Tracy McGrady an indefinite leave from the team and will work with his representatives to find a new home for the seven-time All-Star via trade, according to sources close to the process. ...............

Don't want anything to do with him.

[swerb]

Varejao still leading the Cavs in plus/minus at +257. LeBron is +241. Varejao was +447 last year.

It's time to forgive him for the ill advised baby hook with 10 seconds left in game 3 of the 2006 NBA Finals Pup. He was young, he needed the money. We were toast even if he makes that shot and we win game three.

[Hi Oktane]

Varejao still leading the Cavs in plus/minus at +257. LeBron is +241. Varejao was +447 last year.

It's time to forgive him for the ill advised baby hook with 10 seconds left in game 3 of the 2006 NBA Finals Pup. He was young, he needed the money. We were toast even if he makes that shot and we win game three.

For real, Pup. Whether or not you subscribe to the + / - stat (FTR, I believe he's 4th in the Assoc.), you watch the games, right? What Swerb said; time to assign credit where it's due. Come over to the Wild Side, sir.

[Orenthal]

Someone should dig up that pre/early season thread where the whole Anderson question was hashed out. I want to point and laugh at those who need... corrrrrrected...

Course outside of that thread I never really liked his game, but over the past couple years I am slowly beginning to appreciate what he brings to the team.

[pup]

1. He is still overpaid.
2. He is also playing well in the role I have begged for him to be in and remain. He isn't a starter. He is a 30 minute a night hustle guy. Chris Jent without the cool hair.

[papacass]

He is a 30 minute a night hustle guy. Chris Jent without the cool hair.

When is Andy finally going to get credit for having skills? Not just from you, Pup, but from the public at large.

He's a bench guy, but he's a damn good bench guy. He creates his own shots now. He has developed something of a post game. He can face up and drive to the basket. His shot selection has gotten much, much better over the past two years. The number of ill-advised jumpers he takes is way down. In fact, now that he's capable of making moves around the hoop and getting those little hooks and kissers to fall, he seldom takes face-up jumpers anymore.

He'll never be a great FT shooter, but even this year, he's shooting a career high 64 percent. I no longer cringe when he steps to the line. Maybe watching Ben Wallace and Shaq for the past two years has something to do with that.

And that's all before we even get to defense and rebounding, which is his bread and butter. Andy is an excellent help defender now. Windy has stated that in the past. He defends the P&R well. He is a heady charge-drawer who knows exactly where to put his feet to get the call. And he makes a hundred other little plays that help recycle possessions and win games -- deflections, tipouts, saves, floor burn plays and so forth. Case in point: the deep heave against Milwaukee a couple of weeks ago. With the clock about to hit zeroes and the Cavs up by three, Andy saved the ball along the baseline and flung it into the backcourt, eliminating any chance of a last-second tipback by the Bucks. That was a very smart play.

You might think that's all energy and just being in the right place at the right time. Certainly, Andy is an energy guy. But he also understands how to play the game, and he keeps learning more every year. The Sideshow Bob hairdo covers a pretty good brain.

[swerb]

Papa, that's just Pup's way of saying he was wrong.

[Hi Oktane]

What Cass said + Andy's uncanny ability to get in opposing players' heads. Not at all a subscriber to the 'underpaid' argument as I assign value to more than points and athleticism, but WTFDIK.

[FUDU]

Varejao is officially a basketball player.

[diminishingskills]

Not at all a subscriber to the 'underpaid' argument as I assign value to more than points and athleticism, but WTFDIK.

I think you meant "overpaid".

But I agree with the point you are making, which is what matters.

Andy is making $6.3 million this season, in the first year of a long-term deal. For a serviceable NBA big man, that is actually pretty cheap. Just from a quick scan of league salaries, here's a list of guys who are making at least $10 million this season:

Eddy Curry
Sam Dalembert
Brad Miller
Tyson Chandler
Erick Dampier
Kenyon Martin
Nene
Ben Wallace

I'm not even including the guys who were really good but then were killed by injuries (thinking particularly of Elton Brand here).

This past offseason, Marcin Gortat also received a long-term deal, and for just a little less money than Andy (Gortat is making $5.85 million this season). Paul Millsap is making $10.3 million this year, the first year of a new four-year deal.

Point is, if you are a big man, somebody in the NBA will pay you. If you are a big man with some skill, at least a dozen NBA teams will fall all over themselves to give you wheelbarrows of money. So the idea of Andy being overpaid ... I'm just not seeing it, especially when you compare his salary to what other big men are making.

One other point. Does Andy's salary really matter? I'm not paying it, so I personally don't care how much he makes. As for the Cavs' salary cap situation, they were way over the cap before they re-signed Andy. Even if Andy agreed to the league minimum, the Cavs still would not have been able to make other roster moves. The idea that the salary cap is a big pie, and that a bigger slice for player X means less for player Y, only matters as long as you're under the cap. Get above that line, and you're constrained in what moves you can make regardless. (I suppose we could debate about the luxury tax consequences.) Point being, even if they would have been able to get Andy for less $$$ (and I'm 99.99999999% sure they couldn't have), that savings would not have allowed them to make other moves this season.

[pup]

193 players score more points per game than he does.
37 people grab more rebounds.
55 people block more shots.
73 people have more steals.

But he gets us an extra possession a game with his hustle.

Others are more overpaid, so him being overpaid is no big deal.

Everybody in the league pays for big men. Except him. Who has twice been sitting out there waiting for an offer from ANY OTHER team. He got one. That the Cavs could easily match.

I am kosher with Andy as a backup 4/5. If he is starting, you need help. It is so obvious, they are willing to play a lost 2nd year player with the first unit, just to have him play his role. The only role he should ever play.

He leads the team in +/-. Awesome. Why are worried about LeBron leaving, we got Andy!!!

[Orenthal]

He leads the team in +/-. Awesome. Why are worried about LeBron leaving, we got Andy!!!

Agree... He is more valuable then LeBron, that is the arguement we have been making the whole time when we mention Andy and serviceable in the same sentence.

[aoxo1]

193 players score more points per game than he does.
37 people grab more rebounds.
55 people block more shots.
73 people have more steals.

Do you watch games or just look at box scores?

But he gets us an extra possession a game with his hustle.

Do you really think it is just one?

Others are more overpaid, so him being overpaid is no big deal.

It's called "the market" and it determines what players get. If you are never willing to pay it, you'll never get anything except the Alan Hendersons of the world.

Everybody in the league pays for big men. Except him. Who has twice been sitting out there waiting for an offer from ANY OTHER team. He got one. That the Cavs could easily match.

Yes, that the Cavs could match. Hence why no one offered him a contract. Because all it would result in is tied up cap space until the Cavs matched it. And this last time he wasn't sitting out there waiting for an offer, the Cavs came in right away with theirs.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4315370
"The quick agreement between the Cavs and Varejao is a stark contrast from the long, protracted negotiations the two sides went through in 2007."

I am kosher with Andy as a backup 4/5. If he is starting, you need help. It is so obvious, they are willing to play a lost 2nd year player with the first unit, just to have him play his role. The only role he should ever play.

I am kosher with Manu as a backup 2/3. If he is starting, you need help. It is so obvious, they are willing to play a guy averaging under 5 ppg with the first unit, just to have him play his role. The only role he should ever play.

Or: we can just ignore who gets more minutes in favor of the increasingly outdated concept that you start your best 5. And we should especially ignore who gets the minutes against top teams, or in crunch time.

He leads the team in +/-. Awesome. Why are worried about LeBron leaving, we got Andy!!!

Deserves zero response.

[FUDU]

193 players score more points per game than he does.
37 people grab more rebounds.
55 people block more shots.
73 people have more steals.

But he gets us an extra possession a game with his hustle.

Others are more overpaid, so him being overpaid is no big deal.

Everybody in the league pays for big men. Except him. Who has twice been sitting out there waiting for an offer from ANY OTHER team. He got one. That the Cavs could easily match.

I am kosher with Andy as a backup 4/5. If he is starting, you need help. It is so obvious, they are willing to play a lost 2nd year player with the first unit, just to have him play his role. The only role he should ever play.

He leads the team in +/-. Awesome. Why are worried about LeBron leaving, we got Andy!!!

Pup I am totally in your TMac sucks camp, but your logic is seriously flawed on Varejao. IMO you cannot get yourself passed the fact that he is unorthodox and having success and making a positive impact on this roster.

If this was football you would probably be singing his praises saying look how much heart he has and what incredible effort this man puts forth.

My 2 cents.

[aoxo1]

The bizarre thing is his hatred of Andy coupled with his reasons for hating a potential Amare trade last season.


And sorry I came off a bit harsh in the "do you watch or just read box scores", but get past the dick and you get what I'm saying I'm sure.

[pup]

The bizarre thing is his hatred of Andy coupled with his reasons for hating a potential Amare trade last season.

Because I have little use for one dimensional players? What is so bizarre about that? Don't want Amare because he defends nobody. Don't want Andy because he is zero threat on the offensive end.

And sorry I came off a bit harsh in the "do you watch or just read box scores", but get past the dick and you get what I'm saying I'm sure.

Pretty sure I can handle it.

[papacass]

Don't want Andy because he is zero threat on the offensive end.

You want to believe that, you go on believing that. But for anyone who has watched the Cavs play with any frequency over the past two seasons, that is a ridiculously bad take.

No amount of vigorously defending your position will make that a better take.

You want to go on drinking the Andy haterade, if that's your shtick and gimmick on the Cavs board, fine. But I'm telling you, Swerb is telling you, Oktane is telling you, Aoxo is telling you, FUDU is telling you, that is becoming a harder and harder stand to take without looking completely foolish.

Maybe you don't care about that. Maybe you primarily care about rankling people and trying to create some hot spots for debate. But your Andy hate is reaching facepalm territory. Might be time to find something else to become fixated on.

[Orenthal]

It is not like we are describing Andy as some All World talent... The pendulum swinging so far the other way to pure hate is totally unecessary. He is a role player that fills a role on this team pretty damn good. He does make plays on O and D, and at times changes the flow of the game when he is inserted, hence the +/-. That is good enough for me on a team with LeBron and Shaq and a handful of very solid players.

This hate reeks of a QB debate from the Browns board...

OJ is telling you... (Cass I need more references...)

[mattvan1]

You want to go on drinking the Andy haterade, if that's your shtick and gimmick on the Cavs board, fine.

But I'm telling you
Swerb is telling you
Oktane is telling you
Aoxo is telling you
FUDU is telling you

Wait a minute. One of the above endorsements is completely meaningless. In the spirit of the holidays, I'll refrain from unmasking the culprit.

[Doc]

Pup:Anderson Varejao :: SoulDawg74:Brady Quinn

If I wasn't late for returning to my lunch break hours ago, I would have brought up Diminishing Skills's money take...the salary figure AV gets is almost irrelevant. It doesn't hinder our cap in any way...so why would it matter to average joe fan? Secondly, he is a basketball player. May not be the typical guy you expect, but he's obviously a guy you want in your rotation. Watching the games will prove that most nights. And having AV run with the 2nd team doesn't mean that JJ>AV, it actually means that AV>JJ in that AV doesn't need Bron, Mo and Shaq to be successful. AV is out there 30+ a night and does his thing. Salary take means nothing...admit that dude has some game and is a decent player. May be overpaid, but does it really matter when his contract isn't really affecting what we do with the rest of our cap?

[Orenthal]

You want to go on drinking the Andy haterade, if that's your shtick and gimmick on the Cavs board, fine.

But I'm telling you
Swerb is telling you
Oktane is telling you
Aoxo is telling you
FUDU is telling you

Wait a minute. One of the above endorsements is completely meaningless. In the spirit of the holidays, I'll refrain from unmasking the culprit.

[peeker643]

The guy averages 8 points, 8 boards, a block and a steal every night. Those are tangible contributions.

That's a solid NBA player.

Add in his intangibles and you have a key contributor to that team.

Across the board those numbers are better than what everybody's favorite psychotic brings to the table at this point and DWest (deservedly) gets much love here.

[Orenthal]

Pup:Anderson Varejao :: SoulDawg74:Brady Quinn

If I wasn't late for returning to my lunch break hours ago, I would have brought up Diminishing Skills's money take...the salary figure AV gets is almost irrelevant. It doesn't hinder our cap in any way...so why would it matter to average joe fan? Secondly, he is a basketball player. May not be the typical guy you expect, but he's obviously a guy you want in your rotation. Watching the games will prove that most nights. And having AV run with the 2nd team doesn't mean that JJ>AV, it actually means that AV>JJ in that AV doesn't need Bron, Mo and Shaq to be successful. AV is out there 30+ a night and does his thing. Salary take means nothing...admit that dude has some game and is a decent player. May be overpaid, but does it really matter when his contract isn't really affecting what we do with the rest of our cap?

With the way the NBA gives out contracts to big men, Foyle, Cardinal, countless others, he really isn't even overpaid. Guys like Kevin Ollie make over 3 million a year and Eric Snow made about the same money. He is not overpaid. I can find as many paid more that are worth less, as anyone will find making less and doing more. The fact we were already were over the cap, making his figure irelevant, only ices the cake....

[diminishingskills]

Others are more overpaid, so him being overpaid is no big deal.

Everybody in the league pays for big men. Except him. Who has twice been sitting out there waiting for an offer from ANY OTHER team. He got one. That the Cavs could easily match.

Pup, who in the NBA do you see as a comparable talent to Andy? Can you name some names?

[hermanfontenot]

Every good team needs a guy like Varejao- a guy who defends, pesters, extends possessions, gets tough rebounds, does the dirty work. The Showtime Lake Show had Clark Kent Rambis; the Bad Boy Pistons had the Rodmonian; we have Andy.

[Zé Apelido]

adjust + / -

the goal is to win the games, scoring more points than you give up. defense is as important as offense, but overlooked by most because it really isn't easily quantifiable. + / - is a good start at really seeing what overall effect a player has on the game. much better is adjusted plus / minus, which accounts for the strength of players on the court.

Varejao still stacks up pretty well in adjusted plus minus over 1 and 2 year spans against other players in the league, and is 2nd on the team by far.

he's 23rd in the league over 2 years (8th in the last year). um, that's pretty good. based on that statistic, i'd say he's underpaid.

there are of course errors and variance in these sort of measures, but I think it gives a good idea that Varejao is not overvpaid.

[FUDU]

Um bump, after the incredible Varejao jump shot with 1 second on the shot clock.....maybe a three for the lead?

[peeker643]

Um bump, after the incredible Varejao jump shot with 1 second on the shot clock.....maybe a three for the lead?

So pure it barely hit cord on its perfect arc through the hoop.

[aoxo1]

Damn, beat me to it. Unbelievable shot.

[swerb]

Ten years of talking sports online ... don't know if there is anything better than seeing a respected board stalwart locked into a bad take that keeps getting bumped.

At this pace, Varejao is going to cure cancer and kill Bin Laden by the middle of January.

[hermanfontenot]

Every good team needs a guy like Varejao- a guy who defends, pesters, extends possessions, gets tough rebounds, does the dirty work. The Showtime Lake Show had Clark Kent Rambis; the Bad Boy Pistons had the Rodmonian; we have Andy.

Did I say Kurt Rambis? I meant Michael Cooper.

[JJN]

Don't want Andy because he is zero threat on the offensive end.

That up and under move that he has been showing against the Lakers and Rockets must have been a figment of my imagination.

[FUDU]

At this pace, Varejao is going to cure cancer and kill Bin Laden by the middle of January.

That's freakin hilarious.

[papacass]

At this pace, Varejao is going to cure cancer and kill Bin Laden by the middle of January.

Or maybe he'll just bring Carnival to Cleveland. As slick as the Cavs' marketing department is, they should devote an entire night in February to celebrating Brazilian Carnival in honor of Andy. Wild costumes, wig giveaway, contests, prizes, Brazilian food at the concession stands.

Andy is a marketable player. That should be leveraged more, beyond just giving away his hair once a year.

[neoleo]

1. He is still overpaid.
2. He is also playing well in the role I have begged for him to be in and remain. He isn't a starter. He is a 30 minute a night hustle guy. Chris Jent without the cool hair.

Anderson makes $6.3 this year and is 32nd in the league in rebounding at 7.9 per game. Of the top 31 rebounders ahead of Anderson, 28 are power forwards or centers. The average salary of the 28 players is $9.5 million.

Of those 28 players, 10 are paid less than Anderson. Of those 10 players, seven are under rookie contracts.

The three players that make less than Anderson are:

Ben Wallace
Brendon Haywood
Kendrick Perkins

Perkins has one year remaining on a four year contract he signed after being a disappointment through his rookie contract. He will make much more than Anderson on his next contract. Obviously Ben Wallace has been a highly paid player throughout his career and still had the 10-plus million remaining on his contract this year before being bought out.

My long winded point - To pay less that the Cavs paid for Anderson to get a productive big man (in his third NBA contract no less), you get Brendon Haywood.

And just to point out, the six power forwards and centers directly behind Anderson in the top 40 of NBA rebounders have an average salary of $13.7 million.

Here's the list of the top 40 rebounders with salary (power forwards and centers only):

Dwight Howard , ORL $15,133,800

Joakim Noah , CHI $2,455,680

Marcus Camby , LAC $7,650,000

Zach Randolph , MEM $16,000,000

Chris Bosh , TOR $15,779,912

David Lee , NYK $7,000,000

Carlos Boozer , UTA $12,657,233

Brendan Haywood , WAS $6,000,000

Tim Duncan , SAS $22,183,218

Marc Gasol , MEM $3,240,000

Al Horford , ATL $4,307,640

Emeka Okafor , NOH $10,538,937

Ben Wallace , DET $1,306,455

Brook Lopez , NJN $2,255,880

Jason Thompson , SAC $2,035,920

Chris Kaman , LAC $10,400,000

Luis Scola , HOU $3,375,600

Al Jefferson , MIN $12,000,000

Lamar Odom , LAL $7,500,000

Amar'e Stoudemire , PHX $16,378,325

Nene Hilario , DEN $10,520,000

Samuel Dalembert , PHI $11,360,000

Kenyon Martin , DEN $15,363,636

Andrew Bynum , LAL $12,526,998

Dirk Nowitzki , DAL $19,795,714

LaMarcus Aldridge , POR $5,844,826

Kendrick Perkins , BOS $4,250,000

Joel Przybilla , POR $6,857,725

Anderson Varejao, CLE $6,300,000

Kevin Garnett , BOS $16,400,000

Udonis Haslem , MIA $7,100,000

David West , NOH $9,075,000

Elton Brand , PHI $14,858,471

Jermaine O'Neal , MIA $22,995,000

Tyson Chandler , CHA $11,850,000

[aoxo1]

1. He is still overpaid.
2. He is also playing well in the role I have begged for him to be in and remain. He isn't a starter. He is a 30 minute a night hustle guy. Chris Jent without the cool hair.

Anderson makes $6.3 this year and is 32nd in the league in rebounding at 7.9 per game. Of the top 31 rebounders ahead of Anderson, 28 are power forwards or centers. The average salary of the 28 players is $9.5 million.

Of those 28 players, 10 are paid less than Anderson. Of those 10 players, seven are under rookie contracts.

etc

Was hoping someone would get this info, as I suspected this was almost certainly the case as 6.3 is a pretty low figure nowadays.

Where'd you find this info? If you put it together, kudos for taking the time.

Should also be pointed out that Brendon Haywood makes 6. Essentially the same.