Did the Cavs make a mistake signing Shaq?

[Prosecutor]

It's looking more and more like last year's 66 wins were the aberration.

No. Those other years when the Cavs averaged 50 wins they were playing with guys like Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden in the starting lineup. Last year they upgraded the guards with Mo Williams and Delonte West, with Joe Smith coming off the bench. Last year's team was simply much better from a personnel standpoint than those teams from previous years. The 66 wins was legit.

This year the team is even better on paper with Shaq, Anthony Parker, and Moon replacing Joe Smith, Szerbiak, and Sasha. Plus, Boobie is finally healthy and hitting his shots and JJ Hickson has returned from his back injury. On paper this team is very much improved from last year.

So why can't they beat anybody with a winning record so far?

Last night against the Knicks we didn't see Shaq and Z on the court together. Maybe we're done with that unfortunate experiment. Brown also went back to bringing Andy off the bench like last year, with Hickson taking Ben Wallace's role as the starting power forward whose job is mainly defense and rebounding. Hopefully that will work out.

[CP]

It's looking more and more like last year's 66 wins were the aberration.

There are 66 of those, for the record.

Melt take influenced only by the last 45 years of Cleveland sports and has nothing to do with this team. The only common denominator between LeBron's rookie team and this one is he and Z. And if we can find some way to send Z out somewhere where his deal can be bought out and he can return to Cleveland in 30 days, we should do it.

If the Cavs show no improvement whatsoever from their current pace, they finish with 47 wins. That is NO IMPROVEMENT WHATSOEVER. They will reel off a crazy stretch where they win 20 of 22 or something and then it will be nearly a lock that they win 60 games or more.

[Guest]

They will reel off a crazy stretch where they win 20 of 22 or something and then it will be nearly a lock that they win 60 games or more.

Complete speculation. Nothing short of a wild guess.

[aoxo1]

It's looking more and more like last year's 66 wins were the aberration.

How many extra wins do you think they would get this year if they had Ben "Unstoppable" Wallace's 10 rpg?

[FUDU]

I said it a month ago, taking too much stock in last season's 66 wins is foolish. Yeah on paper we got better, but on paper so did a good portion of the league, especially a few teams we beat up on and one or two teams we didn't.

Everything went right for us last season, I mean our biggest headache was what a 16 game stretch without West and a 10 game stretch without Z (which overlapped for only 4 games?). LeBron, Mo and Andy didn't miss any time and our D was in place for a full season prior.

[Prosecutor]

Better to win 50 games and go to the Finals than win 66 and get knocked off by the Magic or Celtics. Or Raptors or Bulls, perhaps.

It will all come down to the playoffs next spring. My concern is that if we end up with the 3rd or 4th seed we won't have home court advantage against the Magic and Celtics. Beating both those teams in the playoffs without the home court will be very, very tough.

[fundamentals]

Ummmmmm, not as of this morning.

[Prosecutor]

Mike Brown just announced he won't be playing Z and Shaq together any more except in rare circumstances when the opposition puts two centers on the court at the same time.

Maybe that was part of Shaq'a problem, or maybe they just needed some time to figure out how to best use him. He's playing better lately. His shooting percentage has increased and he's even making more foul shots. He's still solid on the defensive boards and he gave Dwight Howard a hard time against Orlando.

I agree they did not made a mistake trading for him, but they needed some time to figure out how best to utilize him.

[pup]

Why not start Z and bring Shaq off the bench?

Z gets into the flow of a game a lot better as a starter, and I don't think flow matters as much to the Big Banger.

[googleeph2]

Why not start Z and bring Shaq off the bench?

Z gets into the flow of a game a lot better as a starter, and I don't think flow matters as much to the Big Banger.

Yeah, unless they need the matchup eg. vs. D Howard, I guess.

I like them being physical inside at the start of the game though.
And if they're even or behind at the end of games, Z will get a lot of those minutes to prevent the hack-a-Shaq.

[Orenthal]

http://www.stationcaster.com/player.php ... 76&f=37911

Check in on that Windy interview. Makes mention of the Shaq clogging the lane idea. Check LeBron's stats and get back to me...

[Hi Oktane]

bumpity bump bump

[papacass]

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/02/cleveland_cavaliers_vs_memphis.html

The Shaq snow job was like Watergate. It went all the way to the top. NBA executive-types were e-mailing Windy earlier this season declaring the death of Shaq's career. Even LBJ had his doubts.

Turns out, maybe Roker wasn't asking enough of Shaq. His offensive options listed LBJ and Mo ahead of Shaq, when really Shaq should be Option 1A with LBJ when he's on the floor.

Or maybe Shaq was coasting through the early part of the season, and when Mo went down, he knew it was time to step up.

Whatever happened, he fooled everyone into thinking he was Ben Wallace plus 50 pounds on a good day. And I'm very glad the joke was on us.

[leadpipe]

The fact that he's played himself into a bit of shape has helped.

[papacass]

The fact that he's played himself into a bit of shape has helped.

I'm asking an honest question: How does one gauge whether Shaq is in shape or not?

All throughout Shaq's career, I've heard the snarking from fans and media about how fat he is and how he looks so out of shape at times. How can you tell? He's conservatively 325 pounds and 7'-1". I mean, he's supposed to be that big. If he was six inches shorter, he'd be finishing up a hall-of-fame career as a left tackle, because some football coach would have forcibly dragged him to the gridiron as a teenager and made him stay there. His height is what kept him in basketball.

He's not supposed to be rock-hard chiseled with six-pack abs. He's supposed to be very tall and very wide with enough touch around the basket to score. Any residual huffing and puffing is the result of having to lug all that mass around. He's Roger "Kareem" Murdock dragging Walton and Lanier up and down the floor, except Walton and Lanier are physically attached to his body.

Only once, later in his stay with the Heat, did I ever look at Shaq and think to myself "He looks thinner." Other than that, I've never been able to look at Shaq and say "man, he's too fat" or "man, he looks really slow." Because fat and slow is what he is. And he's turned fat and slow into one of the greatest careers in NBA history.

Just my thoughts.

[Ea$t $ide]

The fact that he's played himself into a bit of shape has helped.

I'm asking an honest question: How does one gauge whether Shaq is in shape or not?

All throughout Shaq's career, I've heard the snarking from fans and media about how fat he is and how he looks so out of shape at times. How can you tell? He's conservatively 325 pounds and 7'-1". I mean, he's supposed to be that big. If he was six inches shorter, he'd be finishing up a hall-of-fame career as a left tackle, because some football coach would have forcibly dragged him to the gridiron as a teenager and made him stay there. His height is what kept him in basketball.

He's not supposed to be rock-hard chiseled with six-pack abs. He's supposed to be very tall and very wide with enough touch around the basket to score. Any residual huffing and puffing is the result of having to lug all that mass around. He's Roger "Kareem" Murdock dragging Walton and Lanier up and down the floor, except Walton and Lanier are physically attached to his body.

Only once, later in his stay with the Heat, did I ever look at Shaq and think to myself "He looks thinner." Other than that, I've never been able to look at Shaq and say "man, he's too fat" or "man, he looks really slow." Because fat and slow is what he is. And he's turned fat and slow into one of the greatest careers in NBA history.

Just my thoughts.

cass the only way i can judge it is by his energy on the court...he looked slow and unable to finish earlier in the season, going for lay-ins when he shud have been crushing the ball...now, he's dunking the close range shots and his footwork is a thing to behold for a guy his size...other than that, you're right...he's PHAT...all the time..

[Orenthal]

I'll stick to my original take. The only thing I think has changed is we are actually feeding Shaq in proper post position more often, and early in the season he did have problems finishing on his close range looks. 25 minutes and less a game, and teamates that have never played with a true post player may take time to gel. I hear what Windy is saying, not sure how much I buy into it...

The LeBron quote doesn't mean that much to me... "He had a different mindset than we all thought. We all thought he was playing slow and he was just saving it," James said. "He tricked all of us, I guess."

Due to injury the guy is now getting more looks, he is playing more minutes, and is showing he can still be a force. The early posts in this thread from those not ledgin' pointed all those things out. When Mo comes back I would naturally assume he will get somewhat fewer looks. When playoff time comes around his contributions will be even greater then what we are seeing now...

[peeker643]

Don't underestimate the fact he's 38 and has a handful of rings (or so). The guy knows when to dial it up and he also knows better than any of us what he's physically capable of doing. He's not 28 anymore. He's got only so much to give and he realizes giving that from here on out as opposed to in some November game against the 76ers is more important than going balls to the wall to pacify a bunch of internet posters.

[papacass]

Don't underestimate the fact he's 38 and has a handful of rings (or so). The guy knows when to dial it up and he also knows better than any of us what he's physically capable of doing. He's not 28 anymore. He's got only so much to give and he realizes giving that from here on out as opposed to in some November game against the 76ers is more important than going balls to the wall to pacify a bunch of internet posters.

That, as much as anything, is what Ferry was buying into when he made the trade. Or at least what he hoped he was buying into.

Shaq at 37/38 can't go for 26 and 12 per game like he did in his Laker days, but with a world of experience that includes four rings and playoff appearances in all but one season of his career, he's going to know when to turn it up.

Shaq can coast for stretches of the regular season, but he's also a very good self-starter. That's an underrated quality, when you consider that there are a number of uber-talented NBA players who never figure out how to flip the mental switch at crunch time.

[leadpipe]

The fact that he's played himself into a bit of shape has helped.

I'm asking an honest question: How does one gauge whether Shaq is in shape or not?

All throughout Shaq's career, I've heard the snarking from fans and media about how fat he is and how he looks so out of shape at times. How can you tell? He's conservatively 325 pounds and 7'-1". I mean, he's supposed to be that big. If he was six inches shorter, he'd be finishing up a hall-of-fame career as a left tackle, because some football coach would have forcibly dragged him to the gridiron as a teenager and made him stay there. His height is what kept him in basketball.

He's not supposed to be rock-hard chiseled with six-pack abs. He's supposed to be very tall and very wide with enough touch around the basket to score. Any residual huffing and puffing is the result of having to lug all that mass around. He's Roger "Kareem" Murdock dragging Walton and Lanier up and down the floor, except Walton and Lanier are physically attached to his body.

Only once, later in his stay with the Heat, did I ever look at Shaq and think to myself "He looks thinner." Other than that, I've never been able to look at Shaq and say "man, he's too fat" or "man, he looks really slow." Because fat and slow is what he is. And he's turned fat and slow into one of the greatest careers in NBA history.

Just my thoughts.

There's another half to the in shape equation besides physical/size, and that is cardio.

Look, I understand you're point. I'm not the guy's trainer. I think that when you look at the guy's past, and the fact he's never been accused of overtraining in the off-season, (to put it mildly) the fact that he's at an age now where one needs to work HARDER in the off-season, and add what Peeker mentions above - combined with what you saw the first 6 weeks of the season till now....and I think I'm entitled to assume he's playing himself into shape.

One thing is clear - he's certainly using his lower body more than he did in the opening weeks - and that's apretty good indicator as well. Not saying this is the sole reason, saying it's a significant factor.

[Gradysmanldy]

I don't buy the "proper post position" take completely. Earlier in the year, when he had his man singled up, he would rush the shot or just plain miss a LOT more. On the double teams, he wasn't sure where to kick it out to, so the open looks weren't materializing. His footwork seemed off, and his shot was a little flat (even for Shaq)

Since that Dallas game (and especially recently) he's punished the single teams by making >50% of his shots, showing quickness around the basket, and is now more comortable knowing where the other players on the court are for looks when he gets doubled.

Those reasons ^, plus the gradual conditioning over the last few months, has him playing like we hoped. If he stays healthy (fingers double crossed) he will be a seriously powerful force in the playoffs for 25 mins a night.

As much as I bitched about Z's deteriorating game, it's going to be GREAT to have all 7 feet of him in the playoffs coming off the bench.

I'm so horny for the playoffs right now it's ridiculous. Adding the potential energy, rebounding, and defense that Powe brings is just going to be gravy.

[Orenthal]

Yeah I conceded that he was missing too many of those close looks he is making now, but I stand by the take that he was not being fed the ball in proper position. How many times did Mo throw the ball off target causing Shaq to retreat to get the ball. IMO Mo is horible at the post pass, and it was only when West started playing regular second quarter minutes did I really see the difference in the passes. Also many times early in the season they would not pass the ball back to Shaq as he was re-establishing position.

I think it was more a function of minutes, the adjustment of the team to Shaq, and the fact he was the 3rd option playing mid-20 minutes. Six games in he had 21 points, but only recently has he been getting a consistent 30ish minutes a game. Plus his impact in getting us in the penalty and fouls on big men more then offsets his misses at the FT line.

EDIT
Totally agree about the playoffs. This team is built for the playoffs. Gonna be sick...

[papacass]

There's another half to the in shape equation besides physical/size, and that is cardio.

Look, I understand you're point. I'm not the guy's trainer. I think that when you look at the guy's past, and the fact he's never been accused of overtraining in the off-season, (to put it mildly) the fact that he's at an age now where one needs to work HARDER in the off-season, and add what Peeker mentions above - combined with what you saw the first 6 weeks of the season till now....and I think I'm entitled to assume he's playing himself into shape.

One thing is clear - he's certainly using his lower body more than he did in the opening weeks - and that's apretty good indicator as well. Not saying this is the sole reason, saying it's a significant factor.

I'm not questioning the legitimacy of your comment, and I tried to phrase my reply as such. He does look like he has noticeably more endurance than he did earlier in the season. I don't doubt that's the result of playing himself more into game shape.

He freely admitted that "Shaq vs." was his offseason training regimen. So he didn't exactly kick ass in the gym on his way from Phoenix to Cleveland. I'm just wondering, other than seeing more of a bounce in his step, how anyone can determine what is "in shape" for Shaq. Because, honestly, the guy has always toted a bit more around the middle, and if he didn't have biceps three times bigger than everyone else's quadriceps, he'd have no muscle definition. It doesn't mean he's not as strong as Godzilla, but he's never going to have an LBJ-level body fat percentage.

[Ea$t $ide]

how anyone can determine what is "in shape" for Shaq.

cut him...if he bleeds mayo...still not in shape...

[Shadow Scars]

Did the Cavs make a mistake signing Shaq?

no.

[CP]

They will reel off a crazy stretch where they win 20 of 22 or something and then it will be nearly a lock that they win 60 games or more.

Complete speculation. Nothing short of a wild guess.

Been lurking more than anything due to work issues but couldn't help myself when I saw this thread get bumped. Cavs now on pace for 65 wins.

[buddycowley]

Is the plan to dig up the "Andy V signs 5 year contract" thread so we can see how terrible people's takes were on that one too?

[rebelwithoutaclue]

Is the plan to dig up the "Andy V signs 5 year contract" thread so we can see how terrible people's takes were on that one too?

That day will come after Andy gets named to an All-Defensive team.

[diminishingskills]

Is the plan to dig up the "Andy V signs 5 year contract" thread so we can see how terrible people's takes were on that one too?

I have a buddy out in CA who insisted, at the time, that the Cavs would blow it if they took LeBron, and that Darko was the smart pick. If that isn't the fucking trump card in this thread, I don't know what is.

(P.S.: Still am hunting for a Pistons Darko jersey, men's large. If anybody has any ideas where one could be obtained, lemme know. Yes, I am serious.)

[e0y2e3]

Is the plan to dig up the "Andy V signs 5 year contract" thread so we can see how terrible people's takes were on that one too?

That day will come after Andy gets named to an All-Defensive team.

I mean there is already a thread dedicated to Pup's horribleness on the matter that gets bumped all the time.

[aoxo1]

Is the plan to dig up the "Andy V signs 5 year contract" thread so we can see how terrible people's takes were on that one too?

I have a buddy out in CA who insisted, at the time, that the Cavs would blow it if they took LeBron, and that Darko was the smart pick. If that isn't the fucking trump card in this thread, I don't know what is.

(P.S.: Still am hunting for a Pistons Darko jersey, men's large. If anybody has any ideas where one could be obtained, lemme know. Yes, I am serious.)

How much are you willing to spend?
http://www.prosportsmemorabilia.com/Dar ... PID=972351

[Ziner]

Is the plan to dig up the "Andy V signs 5 year contract" thread so we can see how terrible people's takes were on that one too?

I have a buddy out in CA who insisted, at the time, that the Cavs would blow it if they took LeBron, and that Darko was the smart pick. If that isn't the fucking trump card in this thread, I don't know what is.

(P.S.: Still am hunting for a Pistons Darko jersey, men's large. If anybody has any ideas where one could be obtained, lemme know. Yes, I am serious.)

How much are you willing to spend?
http://www.prosportsmemorabilia.com/Dar ... PID=972351

HA, who in their right mind would pay more than $20 bucks for that jersey, even for a joke.

DS, ever try posting on a Detroit message board, some guy probably still has one in his closet.

p.s. if anyone has a desire for a Tim Couch jersey it can be had for a very low price!

[Ea$t $ide]

Is the plan to dig up the "Andy V signs 5 year contract" thread so we can see how terrible people's takes were on that one too?

Right after we go back in time and create a "Mike Phipps will be an All-Pro" thread....

[Gradysmanldy]

....Right after we collate all the "JJ Hickson will be in allstar in a few years" posts.