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Cavs @ Raptors

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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby Andrew » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:18 pm

What I don't get is this inconsistency, it seems the entire offense is watching LeBron and when they realize they are down big, they turn it on but make stupid mistakes.

LeBron is doing everything he can, I mean he had a triple double for crying out loud.

But this team is finding itself and its going to take time. Tickering with the lineup with LeBron at the 4 or both Z and Shaq in...Mike is trying to determine his lineups.

I just wish they would find themselves quicker.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby papacass » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:21 pm

When the Cavs finally win a game, it will involve a muffed kick return and Billy Cundiff.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby consigliere » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:37 pm

You guys can joke all you want about it being 1-2 games in, but these first two games are measuring sticks.

Not the next 3-4 chump opponents that they likely beat the shit out of.

I could care less if this team loses to Milwaukee. Or loses to some other schmuck. I know they can beat these teams, and I know this team is making the playoffs.

But, after last season's disappointing finish, I want to see that things have changed. So far, nothing has. And I picked this team to win 58 games, but there part of me is thinking there is the distinct possibility that this team seriously overachieved last season in the regular season. Beat no one, and feasted on the shit teams or contender wannabes....and then got schooled in the playoffs by the first legit contender they faced.

It's not even about the Ws and Ls, is is about trends. People said the same crap about the Browns preseason games in 2008 when they served up turd sandwiches and the mantra was "it's only preseason" or when the Indians started 0-5 this year and people said that there were 157 games to go.....it's never to early to have some concern. And no one is saying this team is garbage....just openly expressing the concern. And some are not convinced this team is as good as some think and that while anything can happen that they need one more big piece to push them over the top.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby CTownYaga » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:59 pm

Consigliere wrote:You guys can joke all you want about it being 1-2 games in, but these first two games are measuring sticks.

Not the next 3-4 chump opponents that they likely beat the shit out of.

I could care less if this team loses to Milwaukee. Or loses to some other schmuck. I know they can beat these teams, and I know this team is making the playoffs.

But, after last season's disappointing finish, I want to see that things have changed. So far, nothing has. And I picked this team to win 58 games, but there part of me is thinking there is the distinct possibility that this team seriously overachieved last season in the regular season. Beat no one, and feasted on the shit teams or contender wannabes....and then got schooled in the playoffs by the first legit contender they faced.

It's not even about the Ws and Ls, is is about trends. People said the same crap about the Browns preseason games in 2008 when they served up turd sandwiches and the mantra was "it's only preseason" or when the Indians started 0-5 this year and people said that there were 157 games to go.....it's never to early to have some concern. And no one is saying this team is garbage....just openly expressing the concern. And some are not convinced this team is as good as some think and that while anything can happen that they need one more big piece to push them over the top.


Overachieved might even be the wrong word. "Fluke" could be more accurate. In that, guys like Mo Williams seemed to hit everything last year. This year so far? Garbage. Maybe this is closer to what we should expect, resulting in 45-50 wins.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby papacass » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:05 pm

I think there is a fundamental difference between the people who are up on the Cavs, and those who are down on the Cavs.

The people who are up on the Cavs aren't necessarily Pollyannas, Kool-Aid drinkers or seduced by Mrs. Robinson. They're simply willing to let this thing play out.

The people who rush to judgment need to have a defense mechanism in place so that they don't get wounded if their championship hopes are dashed once again. So they tear the team down and hope to be pleasantly surprised later on.

I'll admit it: The Cavs roster pales in comparison to the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs. As Pup said on the Celtics thread, take Boston's 2-10 and Orlando's 2-10, and put it up against the Cavs minus LeBron, the Cavs are found lacking in some big ways. So if those teams are playing their best ball and the Cavs are playing their best ball, Cavs lose. Whiffing on draft picks and not having draft picks for the past decade is a bitch. The Cavs' roster is basically a gigantic spackle-job for years of failed drafts and non-drafts. The fact that Danny Ferry has a conference title and a 66-win season to his credit is pretty amazing, considering the raw materials he's been forced to work with. Through several roster turnovers and Dan Gilbert's money, he turned straw in to some semblance of a precious metal.

With that in mind, the only chance the Cavs have to win a title is if A) they land another superstar, as Tony said, or B) the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs are injured or slumping. The Cavs are not the best team in the NBA from a roster standpoint, maybe not even in the top five.

But I don't need to use that fact as a springboard for shredding the team and slamming the door on any shot at a title. There are a lot of variables in play for the Cavs and everyone else, and just like Andy Dufresne breaking out of Shawshank, the final verdict will be revealed through pressure and time. That, and a big damn poster.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby CTownYaga » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:10 pm

Papa Cass wrote:I think there is a fundamental difference between the people who are up on the Cavs, and those who are down on the Cavs.

The people who are up on the Cavs aren't necessarily Pollyannas, Kool-Aid drinkers or seduced by Mrs. Robinson. They're simply willing to let this thing play out.

The people who rush to judgment need to have a defense mechanism in place so that they don't get wounded if their championship hopes are dashed once again. So they tear the team down and hope to be pleasantly surprised later on.

I'll admit it: The Cavs roster pales in comparison to the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs. As Pup said on the Celtics thread, take Boston's 2-10 and Orlando's 2-10, and put it up against the Cavs minus LeBron, the Cavs are found lacking in some big ways. So if those teams are playing their best ball and the Cavs are playing their best ball, Cavs lose. Whiffing on draft picks and not having draft picks for the past decade is a bitch. The Cavs' roster is basically a gigantic spackle-job for years of failed drafts and non-drafts. The fact that Danny Ferry has a conference title and a 66-win season to his credit is pretty amazing, considering the raw materials he's been forced to work with. Through several roster turnovers and Dan Gilbert's money, he turned straw in to some semblance of a precious metal.

With that in mind, the only chance the Cavs have to win a title is if A) they land another superstar, as Tony said, or B) the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs are injured or slumping. The Cavs are not the best team in the NBA from a roster standpoint, maybe not even in the top five.

But I don't need to use that fact as a springboard for shredding the team and slamming the door on any shot at a title. There are a lot of variables in play for the Cavs and everyone else, and just like Andy Dufresne breaking out of Shawshank, the final verdict will be revealed through pressure and time. That, and a big damn poster.


Incredible, spot on post.

Unfortunately, it paints a relatively grim picture in my opinion.

This team may actually be pretty good and turn this into another 60 win season. In fact, chances are they will. But they'll lose in the playoffs again. Orlando, Boston, LAL, San Antonio...they're all just much better teams.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby Triple-S » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:17 pm

Papa Cass wrote:I think there is a fundamental difference between the people who are up on the Cavs, and those who are down on the Cavs.

The people who are up on the Cavs aren't necessarily Pollyannas, Kool-Aid drinkers or seduced by Mrs. Robinson. They're simply willing to let this thing play out.

The people who rush to judgment need to have a defense mechanism in place so that they don't get wounded if their championship hopes are dashed once again. So they tear the team down and hope to be pleasantly surprised later on.

I'll admit it: The Cavs roster pales in comparison to the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs. As Pup said on the Celtics thread, take Boston's 2-10 and Orlando's 2-10, and put it up against the Cavs minus LeBron, the Cavs are found lacking in some big ways. So if those teams are playing their best ball and the Cavs are playing their best ball, Cavs lose. Whiffing on draft picks and not having draft picks for the past decade is a bitch. The Cavs' roster is basically a gigantic spackle-job for years of failed drafts and non-drafts. The fact that Danny Ferry has a conference title and a 66-win season to his credit is pretty amazing, considering the raw materials he's been forced to work with. Through several roster turnovers and Dan Gilbert's money, he turned straw in to some semblance of a precious metal.

With that in mind, the only chance the Cavs have to win a title is if A) they land another superstar, as Tony said, or B) the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs are injured or slumping. The Cavs are not the best team in the NBA from a roster standpoint, maybe not even in the top five.

But I don't need to use that fact as a springboard for shredding the team and slamming the door on any shot at a title. There are a lot of variables in play for the Cavs and everyone else, and just like Andy Dufresne breaking out of Shawshank, the final verdict will be revealed through pressure and time. That, and a big damn poster.


awesome post. Couldn't disagree with a single thing on it.

My question is to Gilbert, Ferry, etc, see this and could they be able to make a move at the deadline to help this team at the dealine and if so, who would be available and what position would be needed?
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:21 pm

Consigliere wrote:You guys can joke all you want about it being 1-2 games in



Thank you. Very magnanimous of you. Will do.

Til game #3 when I joke about that too.

Or, more likely, that's when I'll joke about planning where we'll all meet on the parade route when they get that win.

I just find it odd T. I look at the articles you do on the minor league stuff, read most of them, and every single headline or article is cheerful and optimistic.

X and Y show promise....
Hagadone armed and dangerous
Marson catching on
Even more talent imported from Latin America.
Etc., etc., etc...

All that positive pub for an organization that's flat out sucked and supplied the major league team with little to nothing in terms of impact players and for an organization that had to sell off their most valuable assets to get more crap.

And two games in you're suddenly concerned about one of the best teams in the league after you predicted that very team would win 58 games and be 'elite'.

There's a disconnect there. Not sure exactly where or why, but there is a disconnect.

It puzzles me.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby papacass » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:22 pm

CTownYaga wrote:Overachieved might even be the wrong word. "Fluke" could be more accurate. In that, guys like Mo Williams seemed to hit everything last year. This year so far? Garbage. Maybe this is closer to what we should expect, resulting in 45-50 wins.


Mo is a very good shooter, going back to his days in Milwaukee, when he was among the league leaders in two-point FGs. The key term there is "two-point." Last year, Mo jacked up a ton of threes. He shot 420 three-balls last year and made 43.6 percent of them, both by far career highs. But that's not his game. He's a penetrator, a stop-and-popper from 15-18 feet, a guy who can hit runners off the glass.

If he insists on staying outside and hoisting shots from 20 feet and beyond, he's going to look a lot worse than last year. The three-point shooting was a fluke for him.

If he gets back to playing his real game, I think he'll be fine in the long run. If he fancies himself a new-era Mark Price, there are going to be ongoing problems.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby daddywags » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:23 pm

I don't know. Through 2 games, Williams is shooting below his career average - and so are Shaq and Anthony Parker. Shaq is below 50% from the field. He has NEVER shot below 50% from the field in his career. And Parker isn't a 33% FG shooter, either. I didn't watch every minute of the first two games, but I saw Shaq miss way too many easy lay-ups. That won't happen all year long. And I don't think Parker will be forcing shots up off balance like he has when we get things together on this team. Bottom line: They have two of five new starters, Z trying to learn a new role, Gibson being asked to step up, and the major problem, so far, IMhO, is that the defense isn't up to par. I think Mike Brown will get that straightened out pretty quickly.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby consigliere » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:29 pm

Papa Cass wrote:I think there is a fundamental difference between the people who are up on the Cavs, and those who are down on the Cavs.

The people who are up on the Cavs aren't necessarily Pollyannas, Kool-Aid drinkers or seduced by Mrs. Robinson. They're simply willing to let this thing play out.

The people who rush to judgment need to have a defense mechanism in place so that they don't get wounded if their championship hopes are dashed once again. So they tear the team down and hope to be pleasantly surprised later on.

I'll admit it: The Cavs roster pales in comparison to the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs. As Pup said on the Celtics thread, take Boston's 2-10 and Orlando's 2-10, and put it up against the Cavs minus LeBron, the Cavs are found lacking in some big ways. So if those teams are playing their best ball and the Cavs are playing their best ball, Cavs lose. Whiffing on draft picks and not having draft picks for the past decade is a bitch. The Cavs' roster is basically a gigantic spackle-job for years of failed drafts and non-drafts. The fact that Danny Ferry has a conference title and a 66-win season to his credit is pretty amazing, considering the raw materials he's been forced to work with. Through several roster turnovers and Dan Gilbert's money, he turned straw in to some semblance of a precious metal.

With that in mind, the only chance the Cavs have to win a title is if A) they land another superstar, as Tony said, or B) the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs are injured or slumping. The Cavs are not the best team in the NBA from a roster standpoint, maybe not even in the top five.

But I don't need to use that fact as a springboard for shredding the team and slamming the door on any shot at a title. There are a lot of variables in play for the Cavs and everyone else, and just like Andy Dufresne breaking out of Shawshank, the final verdict will be revealed through pressure and time. That, and a big damn poster.


Papa Cass, I believe we have found common ground. Excellent post, and I agree with pretty much all you say.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby papacass » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:36 pm

Triple-S wrote:My question is to Gilbert, Ferry, etc, see this and could they be able to make a move at the deadline to help this team at the dealine and if so, who would be available and what position would be needed?


Stephen Jackson. That's about it.

The problem is, Z is their biggest bargaining chip, and his value is as an expiring contract worth about $11 million. But with about 80 percent of the established stars in the league headed for free agency next summer, it negates the bargaining power of an expiring contract.

This assumes a lot, but if J.J. develops well enough, maybe he could sweeten the pot in a deal for someone like Amare. It really looks like Amare is done in Phoenix after this year, so if the Suns aren't in the thick of the playoff hunt by February, they might unload him for younger players and draft picks.

Again, though, you're talking about a transformational trade, and that's exactly what the Cavs are struggling with right now.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby papacass » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:38 pm

Consigliere wrote:
Papa Cass wrote:I think there is a fundamental difference between the people who are up on the Cavs, and those who are down on the Cavs.

The people who are up on the Cavs aren't necessarily Pollyannas, Kool-Aid drinkers or seduced by Mrs. Robinson. They're simply willing to let this thing play out.

The people who rush to judgment need to have a defense mechanism in place so that they don't get wounded if their championship hopes are dashed once again. So they tear the team down and hope to be pleasantly surprised later on.

I'll admit it: The Cavs roster pales in comparison to the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs. As Pup said on the Celtics thread, take Boston's 2-10 and Orlando's 2-10, and put it up against the Cavs minus LeBron, the Cavs are found lacking in some big ways. So if those teams are playing their best ball and the Cavs are playing their best ball, Cavs lose. Whiffing on draft picks and not having draft picks for the past decade is a bitch. The Cavs' roster is basically a gigantic spackle-job for years of failed drafts and non-drafts. The fact that Danny Ferry has a conference title and a 66-win season to his credit is pretty amazing, considering the raw materials he's been forced to work with. Through several roster turnovers and Dan Gilbert's money, he turned straw in to some semblance of a precious metal.

With that in mind, the only chance the Cavs have to win a title is if A) they land another superstar, as Tony said, or B) the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs are injured or slumping. The Cavs are not the best team in the NBA from a roster standpoint, maybe not even in the top five.

But I don't need to use that fact as a springboard for shredding the team and slamming the door on any shot at a title. There are a lot of variables in play for the Cavs and everyone else, and just like Andy Dufresne breaking out of Shawshank, the final verdict will be revealed through pressure and time. That, and a big damn poster.


Papa Cass, I believe we have found common ground. Excellent post, and I agree with pretty much all you say.


Cool. I love reaching across the aisle for these bipartisan initiatives. :salute:
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:45 pm

One thing I don't get is all this talk about lacking depth. Last year throughout the regular season the thing was we were 8-9 deep. We got rid of some of those players (since, we now say they all sucked) and we have added other players that we say will be better....yet we are worse off depth wise by 3 players or more?

:wha?:
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby consigliere » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:45 pm

Peeker643 wrote:I just find it odd T. I look at the articles you do on the minor league stuff, read most of them, and every single headline or article is cheerful and optimistic.

X and Y show promise....
Hagadone armed and dangerous
Marson catching on
Even more talent imported from Latin America.
Etc., etc., etc...

All that positive pub for an organization that's flat out sucked and supplied the major league team with little to nothing in terms of impact players and for an organization that had to sell off their most valuable assets to get more crap.

And two games in you're suddenly concerned about one of the best teams in the league after you predicted that very team would win 58 games and be 'elite'.

There's a disconnect there. Not sure exactly where or why, but there is a disconnect.

It puzzles me.


Not sure what those minor league pieces have to do with anything, but I will answer your question.

The player features on the minor leaguers are ALWAYS geared in a positive nature. Shit, it's what you do dude when you write a player feature. Just simple positive pieces on kids giving them some pub. What shall I do, write about how a guy sucks? And get all sorts of quotes from that player explaining why he sucks? Go read anything Castro or any of the stuff in Indians Ink, ABJ, Columbus Dispatch, etc when they do feature stories on players.....they are all generally positive in nature or even when negative in a way it is spun to try and bring a positive out of it. It's why it is a player feature and not a player ripping. So because the big league team is a failure, one should tear apart a minor leaguer in a piece? The farm system may be about the only thing postive about the Indians thhe last two years.

But I don't see anything puzzling about writing about it at all, and it has zero correlation to an opinion how the Cavaliers team is maybe not as good as thought and how in my opinion this team likely will not win unless another star player is added.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:58 pm

From Windy and my biggest problem w/ Brown. When something works once (see the Free Safety D against Boston 2 years ago being used against Orlando last year) he keeps using it no matter how different the situation:

Then in the fourth things changed, substutions had to be made, and the Cavs played big with O'Neal and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. I was taken aback by this, I didn't think the Cavs could stay small and James needed to rest some, but I didn't think they'd go back so big. After all, Chris Bosh and Bargnani ripped that setup in the first half. I asked Brown why he did it and he said because it worked in the fourth quarter last night against Boston. It did work then but Boston doesn't have two guys like the Raptors do. The Cavs didn't look comfortable with it, after all it was the second game trying this out and virtually no one on the floor has played with two 7-foot plodding centers before. Within seconds, Bargnani had shaken loose and nailed a 3-pointer and the Raptors were up 10 and good to go. Comfort vs. discomfort, easy to see in the results. That includes James, by the way, when he's in the game with those two he doesn't know what to do either.


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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby mack07 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:07 am

Papa Cass wrote:I think there is a fundamental difference between the people who are up on the Cavs, and those who are down on the Cavs.

The people who are up on the Cavs aren't necessarily Pollyannas, Kool-Aid drinkers or seduced by Mrs. Robinson. They're simply willing to let this thing play out.

The people who rush to judgment need to have a defense mechanism in place so that they don't get wounded if their championship hopes are dashed once again. So they tear the team down and hope to be pleasantly surprised later on.

I'll admit it: The Cavs roster pales in comparison to the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs. As Pup said on the Celtics thread, take Boston's 2-10 and Orlando's 2-10, and put it up against the Cavs minus LeBron, the Cavs are found lacking in some big ways. So if those teams are playing their best ball and the Cavs are playing their best ball, Cavs lose. Whiffing on draft picks and not having draft picks for the past decade is a bitch. The Cavs' roster is basically a gigantic spackle-job for years of failed drafts and non-drafts. The fact that Danny Ferry has a conference title and a 66-win season to his credit is pretty amazing, considering the raw materials he's been forced to work with. Through several roster turnovers and Dan Gilbert's money, he turned straw in to some semblance of a precious metal.

With that in mind, the only chance the Cavs have to win a title is if A) they land another superstar, as Tony said, or B) the C's, Magic, Lakers and Spurs are injured or slumping. The Cavs are not the best team in the NBA from a roster standpoint, maybe not even in the top five.

But I don't need to use that fact as a springboard for shredding the team and slamming the door on any shot at a title. There are a lot of variables in play for the Cavs and everyone else, and just like Andy Dufresne breaking out of Shawshank, the final verdict will be revealed through pressure and time. That, and a big damn poster.
and the boozer situation...the spackle job began immediately after that farce and never recovered...the team should have been built around those two guys and a top-notch point guard
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby papacass » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:38 am

Papa Cass wrote:Don't see a win coming tonight. Sorry. Maybe if it was a home game. But it's a road game, on the second night of back-to-backs, with AP and LBJ likely both gassed from logging huge minutes last night ... Cavs might keep it close, but I don't think the Raps are ever going to truly be in danger of losing this one. Raps pull away late and win by 10 or so.


From yesterday. Just sayin'.

I'm glad on some level that they lost last night, and had the same problems they had against Boston in doing so. It helps drive home the point that the Cavs just aren't playing well right now, as opposed to the idea that they specifically cannot hang with the best teams in the league.

The Cavs will have a hard time beating anybody playing the way they've played the first two games. They might be able to play ugly and beat Minny on Friday, but if that is the case, the game is going to be a sweat-it-out contest, in doubt until the final minute or so.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:54 am

Consigliere wrote:So because the big league team is a failure, one should tear apart a minor leaguer in a piece? The farm system may be about the only thing postive about the Indians thhe last two years.




:lmfao: :lmfao:

Really??

Hmm... must be all the impact talent they've provided that has put the club back toward the top of the division. And all the talent they've developed so that they didn't have to get their young, major league talent from elsewhere.

At least they haven't had to deal any solid, major league players to get more young talent in the org.

You're talking gus like Ben Francisco and Trevor Crowe type talent, right? The real finds of the terrific drafts of the last however many years?

I know, maybe it's the guys you have a soft spot for like Toregas and Gimenez.

Yes, definitely a huge positive for the organization. Fucking outstanding.

You do what you do bro. Features can be honest and two-sided. Based on those reports on the minor leagues this team should be playing the Phillies right now and the organization should be dripping with amazing talent.

And I mean dripping.

But you go ahead and find your objectivity when basketball starts.

I get it. I have for a couple years.

That's what it has to do with anything T.

Just that. Just objectivity and opinions based in legitemacy.

Find someone else to dance around it and pay reverence. Fuck that.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby consigliere » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:14 am

Wow Peeker, what a piece of work you are. Real class and respectful guy. You have now resulting to mocking the work of others here on the site.

Congrats to you. Hope you are proud of yourself.

Go fuck yourself. Asshole.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:48 am

Consigliere wrote:Wow Peeker, what a piece of work you are. Real class and respectful guy. You have now resulting to mocking the work of others here on the site.

Congrats to you. Hope you are proud of yourself.

Go fuck yourself. Asshole.




I'm not mocking the work. I respect the hell out of the fact you're passionate about it and it's what you do.

That's great.

So easy with the martyr trip. No time for it.

I'm mocking the fact that you don't call it both ways when looking at orgs other than the Indians. You save any and all criticisms for the Browns and Cavs despite many of the same issues plaguing the Indians and their minor league organization.

Whatever Tony. I take shit and take fire here all day, every day. From 'made guys' and guys in between. You kidding me? I still have scabs and scars. ;-) ;) :wink:

If I've offended you I'm sorry you're offended. But I stand by what I said. I think your criticism of the Cavs is out of line based on your defense of the Indians and it's feeeder system. Pretty basic statement. And yeah, it's easier to be objective with teams and players you don't deal with everyday.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby JCoz » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:24 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
Consigliere wrote:So because the big league team is a failure, one should tear apart a minor leaguer in a piece? The farm system may be about the only thing postive about the Indians thhe last two years.




:lmfao: :lmfao:

Really??

Hmm... must be all the impact talent they've provided that has put the club back toward the top of the division. And all the talent they've developed so that they didn't have to get their young, major league talent from elsewhere.

At least they haven't had to deal any solid, major league players to get more young talent in the org.

You're talking gus like Ben Francisco and Trevor Crowe type talent, right? The real finds of the terrific drafts of the last however many years?

I know, maybe it's the guys you have a soft spot for like Toregas and Gimenez.

Yes, definitely a huge positive for the organization. Fucking outstanding.

You do what you do bro. Features can be honest and two-sided. Based on those reports on the minor leagues this team should be playing the Phillies right now and the organization should be dripping with amazing talent.

And I mean dripping.

But you go ahead and find your objectivity when basketball starts.

I get it. I have for a couple years.

That's what it has to do with anything T.

Just that. Just objectivity and opinions based in legitemacy.

Find someone else to dance around it and pay reverence. Fuck that.


Damn. Both barrels with that one.

I re-read it after tony's comments and then looked up at the time and definitley expected that to a 1am post.

That it wasn't is the biggest surprise of my morning.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:04 pm

It's not about barrels or taking personal shots for me. I'm asking for the same level of criticism and objectivity for one team as the other.

That's it.

From everyone, especially writers. It increases credibility for the whole group.

And yes, even if an article is a feature I'd like to know a prospect's weaknesses and areas of opportunity. I think the last 5 or 6 years of Indians baseball would indicate that there are issues and areas of opportunity for the majority of guys who pass through. Just like the Cavaliers weaknesses, needs and issues are self evident.

That's it.

Tony's stuff speaks for itself. He's an authority on the minor league Tribe and he's worked hard to be that.

Cavs-Raptors is over.

On to the next Bataan Death March.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby consigliere » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:35 pm

Peeker643 wrote:
Consigliere wrote:Wow Peeker, what a piece of work you are. Real class and respectful guy. You have now resulting to mocking the work of others here on the site.

Congrats to you. Hope you are proud of yourself.

Go fuck yourself. Asshole.




I'm not mocking the work. I respect the hell out of the fact you're passionate about it and it's what you do.

That's great.

So easy with the martyr trip. No time for it.

I'm mocking the fact that you don't call it both ways when looking at orgs other than the Indians. You save any and all criticisms for the Browns and Cavs despite many of the same issues plaguing the Indians and their minor league organization.

Whatever Tony. I take shit and take fire here all day, every day. From 'made guys' and guys in between. You kidding me? I still have scabs and scars. ;-) ;) :wink:

If I've offended you I'm sorry you're offended. But I stand by what I said. I think your criticism of the Cavs is out of line based on your defense of the Indians and it's feeeder system. Pretty basic statement. And yeah, it's easier to be objective with teams and players you don't deal with everyday.


Bullshit. You have been taking indirect pot shots here and there about the minor league stuff for ahile now. Shit, you just did it yesterday. I could care less if that came from a forum member, as I get that all the time in private emails and even from time to time on the boards. Can live with that. But a colleague openly and often mocking the work of others? Classless.

It is certainly fair game to discuss and disagree what others write....but if it is fair game to mock The Weekend Wrap, Browns Insider, Good Back & Summary and the work those guys put into it then we got problems.

So again, go fuck yourself.

And while I am here, let me tell you something. I've emersed with the Indians shit 24/7. Writing about them 2-3 hours a day for an article here, somewhere else or on my site. Talking about them here on the boards throughout the day as well. Emailing and calling various people inside and outside the organziation daily. So, with that, no shit sherlock that a majority of my time is spent talking about the Indians. Leaves little time to truly watch and follow the Browns, Bucks, and Cavs, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make. And by the same token, I know a shit of a lot more with the Indians and inside stuff where I don't get as all bent out of shape about many things. I call them out when I need to, but often find myself doing what Hnat said in "explaining" rather than giving excuses. I think the perception is that just because I explain something that it means I agree with the explanation. From now on I will be sure to put a disclaimer in every post saying "the information and opinion shared in this post is not necessarily that of the author..." just for you pal.

And enough with this elitist kiddie club and dungeons & dragons bullshit where people have to be invited to the club or be at some "level" to post in these forums. And I am not hardly alone on that thinking. We ALL have varying knowledge and interest in the three Cleveland sports teams. But to belittle someone, mock them, and say they have an agenda...someone who has been here since day one, talking about all the teams and sharing opinions on all the teams, is assinine. Obviously since the site has grown my focus has been more on the Indians side of things, which should be obvious as to fucking why as illustrated above. But just to make you happy, I will now obligate equal time each day on the boards to every forum so I don't show favoritism and an agenda.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:02 pm

Consigliere wrote:Bullshit. You have been taking indirect pot shots here and there about the minor league stuff for ahile now. Shit, you just did it yesterday. I could care less if that came from a forum member, as I get that all the time in private emails and even from time to time on the boards. Can live with that. But a colleague openly and often mocking the work of others? Classless.

It is certainly fair game to discuss and disagree what others write....but if it is fair game to mock The Weekend Wrap, Browns Insider, Good Back & Summary and the work those guys put into it then we got problems.

So again, go fuck yourself.

And while I am here, let me tell you something. I've emersed with the Indians shit 24/7. Writing about them 2-3 hours a day for an article here, somewhere else or on my site. Talking about them here on the boards throughout the day as well. Emailing and calling various people inside and outside the organziation daily. So, with that, no shit sherlock that a majority of my time is spent talking about the Indians. Leaves little time to truly watch and follow the Browns, Bucks, and Cavs, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make. And by the same token, I know a shit of a lot more with the Indians and inside stuff where I don't get as all bent out of shape about many things. I call them out when I need to, but often find myself doing what Hnat said in "explaining" rather than giving excuses. I think the perception is that just because I explain something that it means I agree with the explanation. From now on I will be sure to put a disclaimer in every post saying "the information and opinion shared in this post is not necessarily that of the author..." just for you pal.

And enough with this elitist kiddie club and dungeons & dragons bullshit where people have to be invited to the club or be at some "level" to post in these forums. And I am not hardly alone on that thinking. We ALL have varying knowledge and interest in the three Cleveland sports teams. But to belittle someone, mock them, and say they have an agenda...someone who has been here since day one, talking about all the teams and sharing opinions on all the teams, is assinine. Obviously since the site has grown my focus has been more on the Indians side of things, which should be obvious as to fucking why as illustrated above. But just to make you happy, I will now obligate equal time each day on the boards to every forum so I don't show favoritism and an agenda.


Like I said, whatever T.

You get your balls in a bunch every time your perceived authority or knowledge is questioned. Like you need to cling to every last bit of credibility that it brings lest one opinion, post or dissuading thought tear it all down.

That's fine. But let me say this: If it's that fragile there you have far bigger issues than an amatuer weekly columnist and message board poster questioning why everything in the minor leagues is fine but that the major league team is in disarray.

Capisci?

And enough with this elitist kiddie club and dungeons & dragons bullshit where people have to be invited to the club or be at some "level" to post in these forums.


That's rich. Really. The 'teflon don' telling me there's no stratification or rules while explaining to me the rules, unwritten or otherwise.

Do me a favor too, keep it straight who has the 'agenda' and who has the questions as to the objectivity discrepancy between topics/teams. I'm the second guy.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby consigliere » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:41 pm

Peeker643 wrote:Like I said, whatever T.

You get your balls in a bunch every time your perceived authority or knowledge is questioned. Like you need to cling to every last bit of credibility that it brings lest one opinion, post or dissuading thought tear it all down.

That's fine. But let me say this: If it's that fragile there you have far bigger issues than an amatuer weekly columnist and message board poster questioning why everything in the minor leagues is fine but that the major league team is in disarray.

Capisci?

And enough with this elitist kiddie club and dungeons & dragons bullshit where people have to be invited to the club or be at some "level" to post in these forums.


That's rich. Really. The 'teflon don' telling me there's no stratification or rules while explaining to me the rules, unwritten or otherwise.

Do me a favor too, keep it straight who has the 'agenda' and who has the questions as to the objectivity discrepancy between topics/teams. I'm the second guy.


Again, your perception is obviously jaded here and there is an axe to grind because you have gone way out of your way many times in the past to say you don't care about the minor leagues. Not a thing. So save me the crap where you even know what the hell you are talking about and ever even read those player pieces. If you had a clue, you'd know a lot of times the player is talked about as a future fourth outfielder, reliever, or his future is uncertain. No one has ever said the minor leagues are fine. Strong, yes, but just fine and dandy, no.

And dude you are obviously so thickheaded that you completely miss the point. It's not about authority and knowledge being questioned....I get questioned on it everyday in email and on the boards and am very, very sure of where I sit with myself in that regard thank you very much. One jackass site writer has no bearing on that. But, when that guy publicly mocks that hard work and a potential career with that work? Then I got problems. And no way in hell am I letting it slide. The fact that another site writer going around and publicly mocking someone's work seems to be okay 'round here has certainly opened up my eyes today. That's for sure.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:02 pm

Consigliere wrote:Again, your perception is obviously jaded here and there is an axe to grind because you have gone way out of your way many times in the past to say you don't care about the minor leagues. Not a thing. So save me the crap where you even know what the hell you are talking about and ever even read those player pieces. If you had a clue, you'd know a lot of times the player is talked about as a future fourth outfielder, reliever, or his future is uncertain. No one has ever said the minor leagues are fine. Strong, yes, but just fine and dandy, no.

And dude you are obviously so thickheaded that you completely miss the point. It's not about authority and knowledge being questioned....I get questioned on it everyday in email and on the boards and am very, very sure of where I sit with myself in that regard thank you very much. One jackass site writer has no bearing on that. But, when that guy publicly mocks that hard work and a potential career with that work? Then I got problems. And no way in hell am I letting it slide. The fact that another site writer going around and publicly mocking someone's work seems to be okay 'round here has certainly opened up my eyes today. That's for sure.


Maybe you are fucking infallible T. Now you know what I read and what I don't.

I've watched Hagadone pitch. A few times. You're damn right I wanted to see what you thought.

I think he's clearly armed and dangerous. Especially if you're sitting down low and just off the screen.

And no, I have no more than a passing interest in the minor leagues when I can watch MLB as easily. 98% of the people on this site are of the exact same opinion FYI.

Please, you can throw out your 'thicks' and your 'fuck yourselfs' all day and then question my class. You keep taking it down a prsonal road. But if you can't see your stuff wasn't being mocked and was instead being used as an example to show that you were more critical of the Cavs than of the guys you cover (and have covered) then the thick argument is over.

I had an issue with your take, I said what I had to say because IT'S TRUE and because I ain't closing my eyes and pretending it ain't there. You get easily gashed and take it like I just kicked the Queen.

One of us is very insecure and I'm not going to say which one. Because then one of us will be offended in a forum. So let's pretend it's me and I'll take that hit.

But, when that guy publicly mocks that hard work and a potential career with that work?


Now we're getting somewhere.

Now we're making progress.

And let me offer up the very distinct possibility that maybe others don't perceive me as having mocked you before you take your ball and go home.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby consigliere » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:33 pm

Peeker643 wrote:And no, I have no more than a passing interest in the minor leagues when I can watch MLB as easily. 98% of the people on this site are of the exact same opinion FYI.

Please, you can throw out your 'thicks' and your 'fuck yourselfs' all day and then question my class. You keep taking it down a prsonal road. But if you can't see your stuff wasn't being mocked and was instead being used as an example to show that you were more critical of the Cavs than of the guys you cover (and have covered) then the thick argument is over.

I had an issue with your take, I said what I had to say because IT'S TRUE and because I ain't closing my eyes and pretending it ain't there. You get easily gashed and take it like I just kicked the Queen.

One of us is very insecure and I'm not going to say which one. Because then one of us will be offended in a forum. So let's pretend it's me and I'll take that hit.


And that 2% is what the minor league stuff is geared to appeal to, along with a few of the 98% who dabble into it from time to time. Nothing more. Nothing less. It's out there to bring some info to light which otherwise was not available a few years ago. Whether 100 people read it and enjoy it, or a million people read it and enjoy it. I don't take offense to that at all.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe I am not as critical of the Indians because I also know a shit load more that gives me a better understanding of the situation that I simply cannot share, and therefore am not as critical about it? I've been more than critical of the drafts in the past, the BP fiasco, Shapiro's inability to build a bullpen, Shapiro's insistence to go with vets over kids, etc. Written about it many times in the past. And I've even got direct replies from front office people about those pieces (they respond to the non-critical stuff too as an FYI). So, I call them out when appropriate.

As an example, you think if Brian Windhorst were a Cavaliers, Browns and Indians fan, that he would be equally as critical on all three teams on a message board? Hell no. He has to remain professional about the team he covers when he talks about the Cavaliers, but can say whatever he wants about the Indians/Browns.

My situation with the Browns and Cavaliers is very much different where I am more a "fan" with them and can say whatever crosses my mind since really I have no other perception to draw off of than that. I look to the Hnat's, Cassano's. Amico's, Lamovsky's, Peeker's, etc of the world to give me more insight and explain where I am fallible in my thinking. I'm looking for insight into whether what I am thinking is wrong or if I am maybe onto something. Contrary to what you think with my outburst on the Cavaliers and Browns of late, I am very much a glass half full guy and always try and focus more on the positive with all the teams. That's damn hard these days and I have had enough of it after a shitty Indians season and the debacle that is the browns right now.

Like I said, I have been busy up to my ears with baseball stuff the last six months and still am, that I have had little time to comment on the Cavs and Browns. I paid virtually no attention to what the Cavs did all offseason and the Browns as well. Just no time. So I get a chance to check in on the action and watch it in the background the last two nights while working on projects, and I was not impressed with what I saw. Nor after delving into it further the situation the team is in or makeup of the team and how they compare to the other contenders.

But I get called out as being over-critical, having an agenda, and some guy brings my minor league stuff into the conversation and proceeds to mock it. I may be over-reacting to that response, but I am only doing so because I thought it was completely out of line.

So be it though. Just stay away from me at the next TCF get together or we'll have more problems.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby CTownYaga » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:10 pm

I knew it. I fucking knew this season would be like this, friends turning into enemies, people snapping at each other, the stakes so high our eyes pop out of our heads any time there is a bit of tension or adversity, the talking heads inciting online riots with their 2010 bullshit....

Sigh. We're all friends guys!
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:31 pm

Please book one of these: Image


for the next MoaT or the next TCF function. Maybe a summer cookout. We can have cornhole, whiffle ball, and a fight to the death with inflatable gloves.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:05 pm

Skating Tripods wrote: We can have cornhole, whiffle ball, and a fight to the death with inflatable gloves.


Do you know how long it would take to beat someone to death with those gloves?
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:29 pm

Rich- we're gonna need at least two rooms and 3 tables for the next event.
12 writers and 12 cabs.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:36 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Skating Tripods wrote: We can have cornhole, whiffle ball, and a fight to the death with inflatable gloves.


Do you know how long it would take to beat someone to death with those gloves?


No. Do you?

That's why we should find out.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:03 pm

It would never work. We all know that lying, cheating cretin Peeker643 would have nail covered bowling balls put in his gloves beforehand.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby swerb » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:19 pm

Peeker643 wrote:Rich- we're gonna need at least two rooms and 3 tables for the next event.
12 writers and 12 cabs.
:hide:

One room, one table, 12 rare ribeyes, 3-4 bottles of whiskey. Once the testosterone starts raging I'm going to leave, lock the door, and just let you guys beat the shit out of each other for a couple hours and flush it all out in one fell swoop.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby comish » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:56 pm

That might be the funniest thing I've read in a long...long...time. Needed that...thanx, Swerb. :cheers:
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:10 pm

Swerb wrote:One room, one table, 12 rare ribeyes, 3-4 bottles of whiskey. Once the testosterone starts raging I'm going to leave, lock the door, and just let you guys beat the shit out of each other for a couple hours and flush it all out in one fell swoop.



That would be one hell of a slap fight. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby Bill the Butcher » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:11 pm

DAMMIT. I always miss the fights!
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:38 pm

Swerb wrote:
Peeker643 wrote:Rich- we're gonna need at least two rooms and 3 tables for the next event.
12 writers and 12 cabs.
:hide:

One room, one table, 12 rare ribeyes, 3-4 bottles of whiskey. Once the testosterone starts raging I'm going to leave, lock the door, and just let you guys beat the shit out of each other for a couple hours and flush it all out in one fell swoop.


You can PM me the answer if you don't want to discuss it publicly, but who would win a TCF Battle Royal?
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:07 pm

Swerb wrote:
Peeker643 wrote:Rich- we're gonna need at least two rooms and 3 tables for the next event.
12 writers and 12 cabs.
:hide:

One room, one table, 12 rare ribeyes, 3-4 bottles of whiskey. Once the testosterone starts raging I'm going to leave, lock the door, and just let you guys beat the shit out of each other for a couple hours and flush it all out in one fell swoop.



Right.

And leave you alone with the wives and girlfriends?

Nuh uh.

Brawl first, winners of round one get two rare ribeyes. Losers eat the salad.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby pup » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:27 am

Skating Tripods wrote:
Swerb wrote:
Peeker643 wrote:Rich- we're gonna need at least two rooms and 3 tables for the next event.
12 writers and 12 cabs.
:hide:

One room, one table, 12 rare ribeyes, 3-4 bottles of whiskey. Once the testosterone starts raging I'm going to leave, lock the door, and just let you guys beat the shit out of each other for a couple hours and flush it all out in one fell swoop.


You can PM me the answer if you don't want to discuss it publicly, but who would win a TCF Battle Royal?



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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby DrPoove » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:36 pm

.
.
.
.
.
<----- Special Guest Referee


Swerb wrote:
Peeker643 wrote:Rich- we're gonna need at least two rooms and 3 tables for the next event.
12 writers and 12 cabs.
:hide:

One room, one table, 12 rare ribeyes, 3-4 bottles of whiskey. Once the testosterone starts raging I'm going to leave, lock the door, and just let you guys beat the shit out of each other for a couple hours and flush it all out in one fell swoop.
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Re: Cavs @ Raptors

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:25 pm

Pup wrote:
Skating Tripods wrote:
Swerb wrote:
Peeker643 wrote:Rich- we're gonna need at least two rooms and 3 tables for the next event.
12 writers and 12 cabs.
:hide:

One room, one table, 12 rare ribeyes, 3-4 bottles of whiskey. Once the testosterone starts raging I'm going to leave, lock the door, and just let you guys beat the shit out of each other for a couple hours and flush it all out in one fell swoop.


You can PM me the answer if you don't want to discuss it publicly, but who would win a TCF Battle Royal?



You Tube.


No need to call him a Tube for asking a question. We've all been subjected to enough, don't ya think?
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


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