Will the Cavaliers make a trade?

[swerb]

That's about right. a lil blunt, but dead on. Another thing I noticed last night, not sure if it was seen on TV but at halftime, LeBron seemed to be going off to Mike Brown til Snow came out and got in between them. And LBJ,Hughes and Brown were at least 5 min behind everyone else coming out of halftime. Then LeBron just walked over to the scorers table and bit his nails instead of warming up with the rest of the team. I havnt been to enough games to know if this is typical or he was just pouting, or maybe just dont give a shit.

I saw that. And that's two nights in a row LBJ has publicly shown up Roker on the sideline in that fashion. It definitely caught my attention.

I've been to 6-7 games this year and never saw LBJ show up the coach like he has 3-4 times since Bron came out and bitched about the tempo.

IMHO, anything less than East Finals and LBJ goes to Gilbert and asks for Rokers head on a platter.

[Dozen]

Its definitly going to be an interesting offseason. I dont even think the ECF's will save this FO. While it's not really public I dont think Ferry and Roker get along. But who's side will Gilbert take? The coach he hired before Ferry? Or the other way around. Was Brown really the coach Ferry wanted behind closed doors while the spurs were in the finals? I seem to remember Gilbert saying it was his decision, but that could have been what he had to say. I guess this offseason will tell all so to speak.

[furls]

I have not been a fan of Mike Brown since he was hired and this is no surprise to me. I don't think he is that good of a coach. There are obvious roster problems, but there has been obvious mismanagement of the roster that he does have.

My gripes with him remain the same:

viewtopic.php?t=345

Funny how many of those problems are still issues today.

[consigliere]

CLEVELAND: Z-infinity-minus
That's the lowest grade we can give a team, right? The Cavs haven't made a good move in two years and it's legitimately inconceivable that Danny Ferry watched the first 50 games of this Cavs season, then decided, "You know what? We're good." Part of me doesn't blame the Global Icon for putting a 39-cent stamp on the season.

That is Simmons grade of the Cavs deadline work.

Rack Simmons.

Look, the Cavaliers made a helluva run in the playoffs last year. After that great run, what do they do? NOTHING. They signed no one in FA. They made no trades last offseason. They made no trades during the season. We have essentially the same team as last year. What are we waiting for? Everyone that saw what happened to Wade should understand you don't wait until next year, especially in the NBA where it is a star's league. Go for it this year. It is ripe for the freaking taking.

[leadpipe]

So, Drew Gooden, Z, and Andy is a Good NBA front court. Maybe I just don't know what the hell is going on then. Christ.

And, I don't care if Lebron is a hot button topic. I don't care if he's regressed a bit this year. He is the reason that team wins games. Maybe if he steps up they win more, but who the hell is going to step up without him.

We'll get to see in three years how good the Cavs and their front court are when Lebron is gone. The rest of the team will essentially be the same thanks to Cavs management signing guys to horrible contracts.

Enjoy watching Z and his 11 million dollar contract in 2009-2010.

[papacass]

I don't get a lot of the comments in this thread. I really don't. You'd think the Cavs were the worst team in the NBA by reading some of this. It makes no sense.

You'd think the Cavs have absolutely no redeeming quailities as a team whatsoever. Heck, you might think the Browns were in better shape than the Cavs.

Are some of you actually rooting against the Cavs so you can be the ones to say "I told you so" when/if it all goes horribly wrong?

Has it gotten this bad in Cleveland? Are we this messed up emotionally as a fan base? Sure seems like it.

I mean, geez, if you hate Cleveland sports this much, if it causes you this much misery that all you can do is badmouth a team even when they are pretty decent, then why even be a fan? Why put yourself through this?

I get frustrated when the teams lose, too. But I'd like to think I'm the type of fan that doesn't need a syringeful of Prozac injected directly into my brain in order to feel non-suicidal.

Maybe that's what it has come to in Cleveland. Maybe we are this messed-up as a fan base. The negativity is just out of control.

[consigliere]

Papa, it boils down to this for me with the Cavs:

I think they are a good team. It's a helluva lot better than what they were when they sucked ass before Lebron came.

But, I liken it to the Indians situation back in the 90s. From 1994-1996, it was a honeymoon for the Indians. Fans just loved having a winning team after all that crapola that was on the diamond for decaded before. No one appeared to be pressuring the org, everyone was in la-la land. When we lose the WS in 1995, a lot of us were pissed, but there was this sense like "hey, we got there, we'll be here again." I was one of them.

The wake up call came in the 1996 playoffs. It isn't that easy to get through the playoffs, so when you have your chances you better take advantage of them.

That brings me back to the Cavs. I feel we are in 94-96 Indians mode with them....that many feel it is a guarantee we get to the 2nd round and that the EC Finals should be attainable. I don't disagree with that, but I think a wakeup call is in store for this franchise and fans. Part of me hopes (a very small part mind you) that this team fails miserably in the playoffs so the pressure cooker gets turned up several hundred notches on Ferry and Brown and even Lebron.

I still think the worst thing that ever happened was that we took the Pistons seven games last year. It provided a false sense that we are closer than we really are with them (we are not). Looking back, considering we were destroyed in the first two games, I wish we'd have gotten destroyed in games 3 and 4 and been swept right out of the building. Maybe that would have lit a fire behind Ferry's ass.

Instead, while it was an amazing run, all the series did was make Ferry and co believe we should just continue the course and make small changes. So, we did NOTHING in the off-season. No trades or FA signings except David freaking Wesley and Scott Pollard. And, we have done NOTHING during the season. We have the SAME TEAM as last year. Sure, some players have emerged, but the SAME PROBLEMS EXIST. Poor PG play among other things. We were bitching about these things last year....and they have yet to be addressed.

That's what pisses me off, and if it takes the team being humiliated in the playoffs, so be it. I think a ton more good will come out of that than them getting to the EC FInals and again there is a belief we have to make very little changes.

[furls]

It isn't that there is no redeeming aspect to this team, and I do not get that impression from any of the posts.

There is no redeeming aspect in the PROGRESS this team has made. If you are O.K. with having one of the best players in the league and getting bounced out of the playoffs in the first or second round than I guess all is well.

For me, I understand that team building is a process that often takes several years. Unfortunately, this team is not really engaged in any type of team building process. They have a team and they seem content with riding it out. Given last season, not acquiring a PG at any point this season is simply inexcusable. It is a statement about the mismanagement of the FO that has left us in a NY Knicks quagmire of unmoveable (bad) contracts and the inability of Mike Brown to look to his bench and find anything.

Make no mistake about it, this is the worst team in the NBA from the FO to the HC. The only thing that saves it from being a total disaster is a couple of players on the floor.

[Dozen]

Maybe that's what it has come to in Cleveland. Maybe we are this messed-up as a fan base. The negativity is just out of control.

Negativity or Reality? Christ, if you are happy with a team who seriously has almost no room for improvement then hats off. Keep living in your mediocre world. Bottom line is this, Theve handicapped themselves by signing average players to unatractive contracts. The young players we do have we have really no clue how good they are. They should have dumped Gooden for Banks and 2 #1's.

I still think the worst thing that ever happened was that we took the Pistons seven games last year. It provided a false sense that we are closer than we really are with them (we are not).

I cant argue with this, except the playoff exp is a +

That's what pisses me off, and if it takes the team being humiliated in the playoffs, so be it. I think a ton more good will come out of that than them getting to the EC FInals and again there is a belief we have to make very little changes.

I really dont see how they can make anything but little changes, they pretty much handcuffed themselves.

Make no mistake about it, this is the worst team in the NBA from the FO to the HC. The only thing that saves it from being a total disaster is a couple of players on the floor.

If not, they are on the verge of it.

[leadpipe]

It boils down simply as being sick of the organization being horribly run for 35 years. For every ggod thing they've done you could name 3 things that were done horribly. And it would be easy.

So, yes, I'm a bit pessimistic that they will make the correct choices to right the ship.

After all this time the onus is on them.

[papacass]

I need to say this in defense of Danny Ferry, whom some of you apparently believe is actually a worse GM (or at least as bad) as Jim Paxson:

You know why the Cavs have a bunch of overpaid veterans? Because, save for LeBron, this team has whiffed on first-round draft picks nonstop since 2000. And if you are to believe Bill Simmons, which some of you apparently do, they whiffed on LeBron and should have taken Dwyane Wade. So time might tell that the Cavs are 0-for the decade in first-round draft picks.

If you constantly botch draft picks, the only alternative is to clear cap space and sign free agents to fill the holes. You get free agents to move teams by either A) having enough winning street cred to get them to take a pay cut for a chance at a title or B) overpaying them. Obviously, B is the only option the Cavs had.

So maybe Ferry overpaid to land what is now widely held among the fans as a disastrous free agent class in 2005. I wouldn't go that far, but mine is an unpopular opinion as far as that goes.

Anyway .... what were Ferry's alternatives? If you say to put his foot down and sign Hughes for $7 million a year instead of $13 million, or that he didn't do enough to land Michael Redd (not saying any one person here does, but some people have), I'd say that would be a pretty unrealistic viewpoint because NBA free agency is always a seller's market when it comes to teams looking to lure players away from other teams. Redd had every reason ($$) to stay in Milwaukee, as did Hughes in Washington. But Hughes and the Wizards reached an impasse, and that paved his way to Cleveland.

Ferry was between a rock and a hard place. He had $28 million in cap space to spend, he had a superstar player watching to see the moves he would make, he had a budding reputation as a GM on the line, he inherited a team that had collapsed its way out of playoff spot that previous spring. He had to do something.

And he had a team that had a dearth of talent because of a horrid recent draft history.

I think some fans believe Ferry was handed $28 million on a silver platter and screwed it all up. That is wrong in my view. He had $28 million to plug some huge holes in the roster, holes that could have been filled with better drafting. He wasn't exactly operating from a position of strength, other than using LeBron's presence as a bargaining chip.

Personally, I think we can quibble all we want about what signings didn't work and what trades need to be made. In the end, the Cavs will finally arrive as a long-term contender in this league when they start hitting home runs with their draft picks. That's how a team is able to add talent without breaking the bank.

(But you still won't get me to believe that the frontcourt isn't the main reason they are nine games over .500)

[Dozen]

Anyway .... what were Ferry's alternatives? If you say to put his foot down and sign Hughes for $7 million a year instead of $13 million, or that he didn't do enough to land Michael Redd (not saying any one person here does, but some people have), I'd say that would be a pretty unrealistic viewpoint because NBA free agency is always a seller's market when it comes to teams looking to lure players away from other teams. Redd had every reason ($$) to stay in Milwaukee, as did Hughes in Washington. But Hughes and the Wizards reached an impasse, and that paved his way to Cleveland.

Ferry was between a rock and a hard place. He had $28 million in cap space to spend, he had a superstar player watching to see the moves he would make, he had a budding reputation as a GM on the line, he inherited a team that had collapsed its way out of playoff spot that previous spring. He had to do something.

Becoming a General Manager with a team who had 28 million and LBJ on the roster is hardly between a rock and a hard place. Lets face it, we had a chance and blew it. We got a rookie GM and are paying dearly for doing so. Everyone (including myself) was all for the signings of '05 and overlooked the shortcomings of the players. We all thought this was soon to be championship roster and so on. But, at the end of the day, Mr. Ferry was hired to make those decisions. Maybe if they had hired a more experienced GM he would have done things differently. There is serious inner problems with this club. I do know Ferry had LeBron calling Damon Jones daily in efforts to recruit him to Cleveland back in '05 and look at DJ's situation here now. Hell, the most playing time he's had was during the 3pt contest All-Star weekend. I mention this because of a couple of comments I read from thursdays trading deadline. Damon Jones said something like"he wouldnt mind getting traded to a contender that needed a shooter" and LBJ saying "He wasnt playing GM, just waiting to see if anything happened" Hmm.. I wonder if privatly LBJ is ticked for using him to get a guy and then bench him. Now Im not saying Jones shouldnt be benched or not, just saying I'm sure Damon has been in LBJ's ear about it.

[papacass]

Blew what? What could Ferry have done differently? You're telling me all the things you think he did wrong, but you're not telling me how he should have done them differently. What were the other options?

And yes, he was between a rock and a hard place because six years' worth of failed drafting had to be compressed down to one summer of free agent signings while his superstar player was looking over his shoulder and mulling over the contract extension he would soon be offered.

Sitting on the money was not an option. Redd said no. Ray Allen said no. Ferry knew he had no draft picks in 2005 and 2007. The team had whiffed on first-rounders in 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2004. They had a threadbare roster around LeBron. They needed veteran help if they wanted to expedite the rebuilding process. What else could Ferry have done other than what he did?

Before you argue any other point, that question needs to be answered. Otherwise it's all just a bunch of crying over spilled milk.

[Dozen]

Blew our chance, he should have explored sign and trade deals, waited and seen what was available. That money didnt have to spent all in 05 and a more experienced GM MAY HAVE been a lil wiser with the money. Thats what Im saying.CHRIST........ You cannot seriously sit here and say he had to spend that money then. I realize Redd/Allen werent coming, I understand that. What Im trying to say is maybe a more experienced GM sits down and realizes its a waste to give Hughes that kind of money. Maybe sat down with the King and laid it out for him. You make it seem like they were walking on eggshells in fear if one broke LBJ was gone. His contract didnt have to be renewed last year, it was the 1 st year he was eligible to do so. You are basicly saying a then 20 yr old future star made the FO sign every free agent they could in hopes he wouldnt bolt. Now it would be one thing if the '05 class has reasonable contracts that were tradable, but their not. He overpaid then and were paying for it now....bottm line.

[leadpipe]

Papa, before you continue with the "crying over spilled milk" or the fan just "wanting to say I told you so" or "between a rock in a hard place" I think you need to understand where a knowledgable Cavs fan just might be coming from. Look, we can argue about the effectiveness of the Cavs front court. That is somewhat subjective. But understand a few FACTUAL things that the Cavs have put their fans thru in their history such as;

-Buliding an arena in the middle of nowhere
-Allowing Carlos Boozer to get away
-Trading so many first round draft picks the league changed the rules
-Receiving free picks at the mercy of the NBA
-Signing Kevin Ollie to onbe of the worst point guard contracts ever and dumping it to sign an even worse point guard contract. (Snow will approach 8 million in 08-09)
-Consistently hiring coaches that will NEVER coach again in the league (Silas, Lucas, etc.)
-Drafting Dajuan Wagner, 6TH overall in a deep draft, in partial to help at the point only to find out over the summer he can't and does not want to play the point. Something you might have wanted to find out BEFORE you drafted him.
-Consistently draft guys that not only blow, but could have been drafted later (Diop, Langdon)
-Trade a number one for Juri Welsch who will never be in the league again.
-Draft John Morton based on one collegiate game
-Sign well over half of the current team to ridiculous contracts

I would keep going, and I could but I'm sick of typing. Look, with this history of horrible decisions, A. I think the fans have every right to be pessimistic and B. I think the fans can go ahead and assume that things aren't going to be fixed real easily. This is a special situation. This is basically a team with a history of wire to wire bungling.

Lastly, in your previous couple of posts you blame poor drafting. You are right. But that ain't my fault. Especially 30 years of it. I like no other NBA team, why would I say I told you so if I've been saying it all along. I am a Cavs fan. And I ,along with the rest of us out there deserve so much better than what we've gotten over the years. We as fans don't owe them anything after all these years. They owe us.

[Dozen]

Well said Pipes

[papacass]

Lead Pipe:

If you're insinuating that I'm not a knowledgeable Cavs fan, you are way off base. I've been following this team for more than 15 years, even during the dark ages when Ricky Davis shot at the wrong rim and Mike Fratello had Terrell Brandon walk the ball up the court. I've been writing published columns about this team for over seven years.

I am knowledgeable. I just happen to disagree with you and Dozen on some key points. It is possible to vehemently disagree without one side or the other being stupid or naive. I'm not disrespecting either of you as fans of this team. I just think you're both being way too cynical.

As for all the examples you and Dozen both gave, I see your point to an extent. The Cavs have made a lot of boneheaded decisions over the years (though all but one of the examples you gave are from previous ownership regimes) and if you want to say the Cavs' front office should be guilty of being idiots until proven innocent, it's your right.

But I still don't think either of your answers about what should have been done differently in the summer of 2005 really get to the heart of the matter.

Yes, LeBron's presence made Ferry spend the money that summer. Why sugarcoat it? He was spending to show LeBron he was working to put a winner around him, pure and simple.

And no, I don't think it would have worked to sit down and tell LeBron, "Look, we need talent, but the free agents out there are crap. We want you to continue to be a one-man band as we miss the playoffs for the next couple of years. But we'll continue to look for the right players to spend this money on. Honest. Oh, and by the way, when we put that contract extension in front of you next summer, please sign it."

Again, it comes down to the question, "What could he have done differently?" He had the money to spend, he had to show LeBron he was working toward a winning team, he couldn't lure free agents to sign reduced deals in exchange for a shot at a title. There is just no better way out of it than what he did.

All of that brutal decision-making that makes you both so skeptical of the Cavs' current front office led to the spending spree in 2005. If the Cavs hadn't drafted Dajuan Wagner sixth overall, and Luke Jackson 10th, and DeSagana Diop eighth, and traded this year's first-rounder for Jiri Welsch, maybe they could have saved some of that money. But years and years of poor drafts by Jim Paxson combined with the presence of LeBron forced Ferry to make a major splash that summer.

[Dozen]

If you're insinuating that I'm not a knowledgeable Cavs fan, you are way off base. I've been following this team for more than 15 years, even during the dark ages when Ricky Davis shot at the wrong rim and Mike Fratello had Terrell Brandon walk the ball up the court. I've been writing published columns about this team for over seven years.

I am knowledgeable. I just happen to disagree with you and Dozen on some key points. It is possible to vehemently disagree without one side or the other being stupid or naive. I'm not disrespecting either of you as fans of this team. I just think you're both being way too cynical.

No one is saying you are not knowledgeable, I respect and take in everything you have to say Papa. I have followed the Cavs my entire life as well. I remember when the only thing you hoped you would get by going to a cavs game was getting a chalupa. I was in favor of the '05 singing and overlooked all the downsides to all the players. Looking back, IMO If the organization were to have hired either a more experienced GM or coach things would be different. Lets say for instance the Cavs hired Phil Jackson, or at least someone of his stature. They lay out a game plan of players they can get within the next couple of years and he then presents that to LBJ. I dont see that kid even blinking at that. Basicly you are justifying an organization blowing their whole wad on mediocre talent just to impress a 20yr old to re-up in another year. As Pipes would say.........the cavs.........

[leadpipe]

Didn't say anything about your Cavalier knowledge. Who am I to say what you know or don't know. All I did was take offense to the fact that you seemed somewhat miffed that I would have a problem with the organization.

Also, I don't recall bashing Ferry in my posts. I don't really have an opinion either way. Anyone who followed that moron Paxson was going to have some problems.

Short and sweet, The Cavaliers are a mediocre team within a horrible oraganization. And, the horrible organization really isn't an opinion as much as it is fact.

[papacass]

Fair enough. I've made all the points I want to make.

But if you both are right and I'm wrong ... man, is that depressing as a Cleveland fan. It's basically like, just forget it. Trade LeBron now because this team is doomed. There is no hope.

And if this team is doomed, and the Indians can't overcome their budget constraints, and the Browns can't stop being the Browns, how long could this championship drought last? 50 years? 70? 100? Or does this city just decay into Youngstown by the middle of this century and all three teams relocate?

Michael Rosenberg of the Detroit Free Press said (in a sympathetic column) that in Cleveland, every team is the Cubs. The Cubs are working on their 99th year without winning a World Series. I shudder to think that it could be 2064 and no Cleveland team will have won a championship in a century, in addition to the fact that everyone here and old enough to remember will probably have long since passed on.

That is the definition of depressing to me.

[Dozen]

Papa I pray you are right. If I may, since you cover the cavs Id like to pick your brain. Was Brown Gilberts or Ferry's choice? And have you heard anything that may indicate what Brown must do to keep his job? Thx in advance.

[consigliere]

Pop, as for what Ferry could have done differently in the 2005 off-season....

Well, it is hard to truly pinpoint it because it is hindsight of course....but I know at the time I was not thrilled at all with re-signing Z. I was very lukewarm about signing Hughes.....although I really liked the Marshall signing and I was very excited about the possible Sarunas signing.

All that said, why not explore a trade for Joe Johnson? Or, go after someone like Raja Bell? Just a few names out there that might fit in better with this team than Hughes. And I still think Ferry blew it with Z. He was competing against himself to sign him, and he let his personal ties to Z get in the way if you ask me.

[Dozen]

All that said, why not explore a trade for Joe Johnson? Or, go after someone like Raja Bell? Just a few names out there that might fit in better with this team than Hughes. And I still think Ferry blew it with Z. He was competing against himself to sign him, and he let his personal ties to Z get in the way if you ask me.

Great call on JJ, I do however believe Z took less money then Atlanta was going to offer him. That being said I do see how he just doesnt fit in, but I still got love for the guy. He's been here through everthing. I know he's not worth what he's making but I would love for him to get a ring before he goes out.

[papacass]

Dozen:

Brown was Gilbert's choice. He was hired before Ferry.

I haven't heard anything that any of you guys probably haven't already heard, but I would think that a first-round playoff exit (particularly if the Cavs end up as a 2 or 3 seed) could jeopardize Brown's job. If this team continues to be one-step-foward, two-steps-back on offense, I could see them making a move, particularly if a coach like Rick Carlisle becomes available.

It's just becoming apparent that Brown only coaches offense as it pertains to getting defensive stops. When they get stops and run the floor in transition, they look pretty good. When the game slows to a halfcourt slugfest and they need deliberate offensive execution, they look brutal. Whether it's Brown's coaching or LeBron/Hughes pouting is a chicken or egg question. Regardless, it's unacceptable.

[Dozen]

Brown was Gilbert's choice. He was hired before Ferry.

I didnt know if it was "behind the scenes" while Ferry was with the Spurs. Thanks

[leadpipe]

Papa, in relation to what you are saying about them looking good in transition, the Doctor, Jack Ramsey was on the ESPN radio post game Sunday afternoon practically begging Brown to keep running. Being as tactful as possible he was imploring Brown to let Lebron do his thing. When the co-anchor mentioned that maybe a guy like Z gets left behind, Ramsey (again being as tactful as possible) pretty much said you can't worry who gets left behind you gotta ride your horse, and, what they are doing now isn't working.

Yesterday is a pretty typical scenario whereas Lebron get 29, doing nothing special. Hughes gets 14 (taking 17 shots to do it) and the rest of the team is pretty insignificant. Point being, if they turn the offense loose and a few guys get lost, it's really no different then most nights. I say transition the ball more and see who want to play.