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Stoudemire to the Cavs?

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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby CharacterIV » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:01 pm

I've bought in to JJ Hickson from day one. I think he's got a helluva future in the NBA. It seems to me that a perfectly reasonable expectation of his ceiling, however, is Amare Stoudemire: Athletic, powerful PF, guy who's always in the running for an All-Star spot.

So why would we not trade somebody who might become Amare Stoudemire in 3 or 4 years for someone who is Amare Stoudemire right now?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:20 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
Consigliere wrote:Get it done. You add him, and I firmly believe we are on par with the Lakers and are even money to win it all. Without him, I am unsure still we get past Boston in the EC Finals and even if we do we are toast against the Lakers in 5 or 6 games in the Finals. Someone like Stoudamire or Bosh is what is missing from making this team a Bulls-like dynasty.

Sincerely,
Vince Carter and Allen Iverson

Its a gamble. If Amare buys into the Cavs' philosophy, if Amare finds a defensive game, and if we can roll with Ben in a diminished role, then we're all getting ponies for Christmas. For Wally and draft picks, I'd do it in a heartbeat. That's chump change. For a package including JJ? I'm less sold on that. JJ has a future in the Association, and risking that future on the chance that Amare finds his inner 'Sheed is something I'd like to have a lot more confidence in than I do right now.


It's a gamble you HAVE to take. This is why the Cavaliers have positioned themselves the way they have salary-wise. This is why they've kept their draft picks. To make moves like these.

We've been all about waiting on the future here in Cleveland. With this team, the future is right... freaking... now. If the deal is there, make it, make it in a heartbeat, don't look back.

One other thing to mention- wherever Amare goes, he's going to get there in a pissed-off mood. He's heard the talk about how selfish he is, how he doesn't want to play defense, how he's me-first. He has a lot to prove. Best believe he's going to be intent on taking every bad thing every one has said about him during this process, and making them eat it.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby GreatGoo » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:25 pm

CharacterIV wrote:So why would we not trade somebody who might become Amare Stoudemire in 3 or 4 years for someone who is Amare Stoudemire right now?

I agree character and i know you are drinking the JJ koolaid. The time is now boys. JJ might be an all-star in 3 to 4 years. Or you could get a 26 year old all-star right now to add to the best cavs team ever. On top of that you are giving them Wally who right now is playing well but once west get back will be off the bench for 10 to 15 mins come playoff time.

I'm telling you boys. If we get this done all the teams in the NBA will be extremely pissed just like in the Gasol trade. And you can book a trip to the finals for the cavs.

I also agree to stop with the "I'd prefer bosh". Bosh is going no where until 2010. Heck, getting Amare is enough in the clouds. In reality i would give the cavs a 30% chance on getting Amare.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby BooyaCS » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:26 pm

Basically Amare is going to do everything in his power to make it look like Phoenix was the problem and not himself. Not to mention if he can come to a team that is winning and has enough leadership he shouldn't have the attitude problem.

It was like Corey Dillion going to the Patriots, heck even Randy Moss going to the Pats as well. The culture should be able to keep him in check and make sure he knows what is going on.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Exit_Stage_Left » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:38 pm

I think wine and gold posts of on cav fanatic's forums but don't quote me.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:41 pm

CharacterIV wrote:I've bought in to JJ Hickson from day one. I think he's got a helluva future in the NBA. It seems to me that a perfectly reasonable expectation of his ceiling, however, is Amare Stoudemire: Athletic, powerful PF, guy who's always in the running for an All-Star spot.

So why would we not trade somebody who might become Amare Stoudemire in 3 or 4 years for someone who is Amare Stoudemire right now?


I would say that Amare Stoudemire is a pretty UNREASONABLE expectation of his ceiling.

He can be a poor man's Amare. To think it is reasonable that his ceiling is one of the most explosive PFs to ever live is nuts.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:51 pm

Also, just to post, we can expect another W&G post at 3 PM EST. He is currently flying to Phoenix.

Here's a link to all posts by him: http://www.realcavsfans.com/search.php?searchid=296946
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Exit_Stage_Left » Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:53 pm

Thanks aoxo I was wrong about cavfanatic, he is one hell of a source for fans such as us during times such as these!

He is like our Tony for the Cavs!
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:24 pm

This is why the cavs offers much better

1) Get Wally huge expiring contract! (with a buyout will save them even more money)
2) Get JJ Hickson who would drafted in the top 5 this year!
3) They'll have snow to a third team to get another young player
3) Get 1 or 2 first round draft picks to rebuild
4) Kerr and Ferry are very good Friend remember...
5) And Sarver need Real Estate help from Gilbert...
6) Amare has a say in where he goes, and he wants a contender!

Bulls offer

1) Two medium expirings, Drew Gooden and Cedric Simmons
2) one good role player who reached his peek, Tyrus Thomas
3) a low bench player Thabo Sefolosha (a scrub is what we call them)
4) one draft pick around 11
5) Can trade larry hughes for a young player (only problem no one wants a two year contract!)


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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby GreatGoo » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:37 pm


Someone educate me on this W&G character. He works in the cavs organization and throws out hints to fans?

Most important question. What has he truly predicted before? If i wanted to waste time, i could pretend to be in the cavs organization and make vague claims. Then once the trade doesn't work out i claim something about Ferry not being able to finalize the deal.

Where does W&G post?


Can someone answer this question. What has W&G said that really became a reality? Or is he just a false forum god?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:43 pm

Here are W&G main posts over there

Today, 04:08 AM

I'm flying out in six hours. Tomorrow should bring some more news for sure. I'll be touching base again around 3pm est I'm thinking.


Yesterday, 11:44 PM

OK ....Got back earlier than I thought, but, I'm crashing early and getting an earlier flight tomorrow and heading out to Phoenix for the weekend. Had some late plans change, and I'll have to handle a few things there.

What a day this is turning out to be ...what a weekend should I say.

I have to be careful here guys ... we have no "handshake deal" right now. ok.

We've obviously been in alot of talks with alot of teams. We have a clear priority established as to how we would like things to go for us, with standing pat always an option that we can ultimately go with, and still be happy moving forward.

Being a big part in JJ's early pro career here, going through this is especially tough for me right now. But, when you get into pro ball, this is the reality of the game. Careers can change on a moments notice, and you have to be prepared for anything, at anytime.

Like I say, no handshake deal has been made, and only Phoenix and Amare know precisely where they stand. But, something looks to be happening out in Phoenix. I've found out that Amare and Lebron have been talking, and I think that when I connect the dots, we may have a real deal want and desire for these two to join forces in Cleveland. This could mean for the foreseeable future.

Amare wouldn't want to come here for another short term stint, and if he didn't get the impression from Lebron that he was going to commit longterm, then you wouldn't have them looking to pair up here.

I've always been looking to find that player that would ultimately have circumstances for them coincide with ours , at the right time, in order to finally find the missing piece that would ultimately pair with Lebron James and provide him with the team needed to bring him the multiple championships.

This could be the prelude to just that..

If Amare would make his wishes known, he would eliminate all the competition basically. No team is going to give up the farm for a one year rental player, that would be unhappy to boot during that tenure.

In a way, if Amare's wishes are what they appear to be, he is going to basically name his destination here. But, the reality is ...if Lebron wants it, it happens, if he doesn't it doesn't.

Lebron wants it. Amare could be on board with that same view of the future potential of their pairing as well.

To make it short and sweet ... it's not a done deal. I don't know for a fact that Lebron and Amare are of like minds ... I don't know that Phoenix might not get another offer that's better ...like say from a team like the Knicks for instance ...and Amare at the last second might have a chance to rejoin D'Antoni in NY and thoughts change at that moment ... those possiblities exist here ...

But, the way I'm reading things right now ...I think we might have a real deal shot at landing him right now. Certain things that I can't really get into specifics about now ..I read as very positive signs that this could ultimately end up getting done.

If it doesn't, then we seem to have some other options available to us as well. I've spelled some of the basics of some of the other type deals that we might be looking for out in some past threads ...everyone if they have been reading what I've been posting knows what type options we are looking at and exploring.

We've had the dream scenarios, all the way down to the smaller ones in the Joe Smith mold, we have the swingman options, and even the status quo.

Just last night at this time I was of the belief that nothing of this caliber looked to be on the horizon, and whaddaya know now I'm heading west and we might be actually in the hunt on this thing.

I still keep falling back on the belief that someone should be able to offer up more than us that has a strong future as well ...but, as I look at the options being mentioned, it clearly looks like we are the most likely option that exists as I type.

Keep your fingers crossed ...don't know if I'll get much sleep tonight, but , the next time you hear from me I will likely be checked in , in Phoenix.


Yesterday, 05:52 PM

OK, finally caught up with somebody within the team. Just everyone cool down a bit here ...everybody's minds are rolling at time warp speed here.. First, I talked to JJ, and basically told him that this is the nature of trade deadlines this time of year. That young, talented rookies are always a commodity that gets speculated about in trade scenarios, and he just so happens to be on a team that has potential targets, and needs. More often than not what it comes down to is reporters trying to fill in blanks, and they ultimately end up being wrong 99.9% of the time.

That said, I told him to turn off his phone, and stay away from the television and radio. Told him not to grant ANY interviews at all with anyone in the media as well.

He's listening. He's having someone monitor calls for him ...

Now, onto what I got from the team. He's been in talks with numerous teams all day long. He'll be doing the same for the next few days as well. Yes, he's had conversations with the Suns and we've expressed some interest in AS, and we've even been talking to them in regards to some multi-team action that doesn't even involve AS, or Shaq ...so alot more than just that trade are being talked about. Even with the Suns, themselves.

To say we are zeroing in on anything at this point would be wrong, I was told. This was 10 minutes ago or so ... that we're evaluating a number of different options, and that alot of interest is being shown for the Snow part of the equation as well, which could bring in an asset in another price range than the high side stuff most people are talking about.

But, I was able to get out of them that we have had talks regarding AS, and we are exploring going down that road which to me is new news ...I had never heard that before today.

Now, I also asked if they had heard anything from the player's camp, and they said they hadn't heard anything in that regard. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, just that the person I talked to within the team hadn't heard what I had been told by a family member today on the phone.... that being that AS's agent had expressed to the Suns and Cavs that he would like to join the Cavs and would be open to an extension with us.

I'll keep digging to see if I can find some other confirmation of that, though ... that's all for now.


Yesterday, 04:41 PM

Just returned from lunch, and when I got back to my hotel room, I have had my cell charging while I was out, I got three calls from JJ and his agent. Apparently, they are getting wind of some things, and are calling to see if I've heard anything regarding him, and potential moves being discussed.

Obviously, being on the road, I'm out of the loop to an extent, but, obviously somethings been whirling around in the NBA circles regarding JJ ...

Really a tough situation for him to go through so early on in his 1st season, he's apparently very anxious over all that must be going on right now, as far as the rumor mill.

Did something break on ESPN as far as speculation ?

I can't go into too much detail as to who else called, but a close relative who also has a job in the NBA but not with the Cavs, called and has heard we're one of the top destinations for Amare, in that he's signaled that he would sign longterm with us if the opportunity presented itself.

Which leaves me mystified to say the least ... I didn't see this one on my radar at all ... I've just never really taken any of those rumors seriously at all. Didn't see us with the assets, or much desire due to certain issues that I'll go into if need be ...

But, obviously for a team that's been saying they are content to stay put, we certainly have a GM that is working alot of tradelines with multiple teams at the moment.

I feel like maybe I should change my travel itinerary, and instead of heading back to Cleveland, make a quick jaunt out to Phoenix ...lol.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:04 pm

HermanFontenot wrote:It's a gamble you HAVE to take. This is why the Cavaliers have positioned themselves the way they have salary-wise. This is why they've kept their draft picks. To make moves like these.

See, that's where you lose me. They've positioned themselves perfectly, but this is not a position where you start gambling the franchise's future - and I seriously consider JJ a significant part of the franchise's future - on 'Well, he might like a change of climate.'

Cash him in for Chris Bosh? I'd do that in a heartbeat. Amare? I'm less sold on that.

We've been all about waiting on the future here in Cleveland. With this team, the future is right... freaking... now. If the deal is there, make it, make it in a heartbeat, don't look back.

But what deal? Its opportunity cost. Trading JJ now means you don't have him later if/when he develops or the 'For Sale' sign goes up on someone else who you have a better assurance of being a better fit.

One other thing to mention- wherever Amare goes, he's going to get there in a pissed-off mood. He's heard the talk about how selfish he is, how he doesn't want to play defense, how he's me-first. He has a lot to prove. Best believe he's going to be intent on taking every bad thing every one has said about him during this process, and making them eat it.

You mean how he's been showing that pissed-off attitude ever since Marion was traded and D'Antoni left? He was spotted J-Rich, Steve Nash, Grampa Shaq, and Grampa Grant, and he's still the next one voted off the island because the Suns are looking at golf in April. I don't care if Terry Porter can't find his ass with both hands and a map. If KG can make the WCF with Wally, Sam the Martian, and Flip "John Cooper" Saunders, Amare could man up and do it too. That's what worries me.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby buckeye319 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:10 pm

greatgoo wrote:

Someone educate me on this W&G character. He works in the cavs organization and throws out hints to fans?

Most important question. What has he truly predicted before? If i wanted to waste time, i could pretend to be in the cavs organization and make vague claims. Then once the trade doesn't work out i claim something about Ferry not being able to finalize the deal.

Where does W&G post?


Can someone answer this question. What has W&G said that really became a reality? Or is he just a false forum god?


He posts on RealCavsFans.com. He's supposedly a Cavs insider, basically an exec of some sort. I haven't seen anything that would verify that, however I only started going over there a few months ago. Mac and some other people here have said he's legit and everyone on that site says the same.

As far JJ as for Amare goes - what is Hickson's upside? I would think the Cavs organization would be thrilled beyond belief if he ended up as good as Stoudemire.

I definitely have qualms about Amare but more because I worry about a guy who's 26 years old with a microfracture surgery under his belt than about giving up JJ Hickson.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:18 pm

How about this deal??? and give both teams a first round pick...

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachi ... eId=cfbgh5

Mo, Boobie
West, Sasha
LBJ, Kinsey
Amare, Darnell
Z, Camby
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:19 pm

drewd, have you gotten smoke to come out of the trade machine working this Amare deal yet?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Guest » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:20 pm

JJ will never be close to what Amare is/will be.
Never.

He's ONLY 26 years old.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:23 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:drewd, have you gotten smoke to come out of the trade machine working this Amare deal yet?


this would work though... lol

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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:28 pm

See, that's where you lose me. They've positioned themselves perfectly, but this is not a position where you start gambling the franchise's future - and I seriously consider JJ a significant part of the franchise's future - on 'Well, he might like a change of climate.'

Cash him in for Chris Bosh? I'd do that in a heartbeat. Amare? I'm less sold on that.


Banking on JJ turning into the kind of player we need him to be seems like a bigger gamble to me than landing a guy who was an MVP candidate a few years ago and is still only 26.

But what deal? Its opportunity cost. Trading JJ now means you don't have him later if/when he develops or the 'For Sale' sign goes up on someone else who you have a better assurance of being a better fit.


What if neither happens? Then what? You seem to be putting a lot on Chris Bosh. What if we don't get Chris Bosh?

We're 40-11, and the only thing we really need is more offense from our frontcourt. We have a chance to land a whale. We'd have no more excuses. We'd be the most loaded team in the Association, right now. And we could win a championship, right now. No guarantees, but we'd be in as good a position to win a chip this year as anyone. How often have we been able to say this in 45 years? Once, in 1995?

I'm looking at a parade. You're telling me to wait another year or two, hopefully.

You mean how he's been showing that pissed-off attitude ever since Marion was traded and D'Antoni left? He was spotted J-Rich, Steve Nash, Grampa Shaq, and Grampa Grant, and he's still the next one voted off the island because the Suns are looking at golf in April. I don't care if Terry Porter can't find his ass with both hands and a map. If KG can make the WCF with Wally, Sam the Martian, and Flip "John Cooper" Saunders, Amare could man up and do it too. That's what worries me


Amare is a long, long way from being the problem in Phoenix. The problem there is organizational- an owner who doesn't prioritize winning, a GM and a coach turning a team with an identity into a team devoid of one. Other than the weather, it's a shit state of affairs in Arizona. I don't put too much stock in the negative talk. You always hear stories like these when a team starts to fall apart. Hell, Delonte was a "problem" in Seattle. Good organizations take advantage of bad ones in these situations.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby BooyaCS » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:36 pm

To me at best JJ's upside is STAT, Boozer, Or Karl Malone.
At worst he is a rotational big in the mold of Amir Johnson, Leon Powe, Kendrick Perkins

He is very raw at this point but is a fun player to watch. If Phoenix does make the trade and they go back to a more uptempo style of offense then they have a younger version of what they just traded.

So what this would bring would be a young core group of players in

Mo - 25
Delonte - 25
LBJ - 24
Amare - 26

It would also give us 2 huge expiring contracts next season in
Z - 11,541,074
Ben - 14,000,000

That gives us 25+M coming off the books next year. Also PAVS has a partial guarenteed contract as well. Not to mention if Amare and Lebron op out we would still have about 45+ M coming off the books next season. (the summer of 2010)
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Chris » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:37 pm

greatgoo wrote:

Someone educate me on this W&G character. He works in the cavs organization and throws out hints to fans?

Most important question. What has he truly predicted before? If i wanted to waste time, i could pretend to be in the cavs organization and make vague claims. Then once the trade doesn't work out i claim something about Ferry not being able to finalize the deal.

Where does W&G post?


Can someone answer this question. What has W&G said that really became a reality? Or is he just a false forum god?


The trade last year, for starters.

He also regularly posts insight into NBA matters, and was key in getting JJ Hickson in Cleveland.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:48 pm

I keep hearing this is the trade that they had the hand shake on and are finalizing on Monday...

We had to pick up Jason Richardson contract, it goes though 2010 though....

we'll still be hoping Joe Smith gets bought out...

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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Chris » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:15 pm

ESPN and SI, apparently, said that the Bulls are the front runner...or so the Bulls media people think, and are basically "introducing Amare".
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby GreatGoo » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:19 pm

Chris wrote:ESPN and SI, apparently, said that the Bulls are the front runner...or so the Bulls media people think, and are basically "introducing Amare".


SI Agrees,

Other observations from Friday in Phoenix:

• The hot topics were the Heat-Raptors trade, which most players believed to be a step up for Miami, and a rumored Suns-Bulls swap that had Amaré Stoudemire and parts headed to Chicago in exchange for Tyrus Thomas and parts. This was considered enough of a sure thing that Chicago media folks were already making their introductions to Amaré.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ml?eref=sircrc
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:28 pm

Consigliere wrote:
Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Sincerely,
Vince Carter and Allen Iverson

Its a gamble. If Amare buys into the Cavs' philosophy, if Amare finds a defensive game, and if we can roll with Ben in a diminished role, then we're all getting ponies for Christmas. For Wally and draft picks, I'd do it in a heartbeat. That's chump change. For a package including JJ? I'm less sold on that. JJ has a future in the Association, and risking that future on the chance that Amare finds his inner 'Sheed is something I'd like to have a lot more confidence in than I do right now.


Sincerely,

Rasheed Wallace

Yeah, there are pros and cons at play here for sure. And there have been trades like this in the past which have helped/hurt a team. Depends on the color of your glasses at this time I suppose.

To me, without the addition of a player like Stoudamire or another high level front court player, we're going home in a hard fought seven game series with Boston in the EC Finals or getting thumped handily to the Lakers. We can't sit on the team as is....this is the year and the right situation to do it. If that means giving up JJ, then no problems whatsoever. He's not going to be a stud....maybe a solid starter or role player, but nothing to worry about losing considering his replacement (Stoudamire) is an incredible talent and should be on this roster for years to come.


I don't know what, if anything, will happen with this deal, but I really enjoyed the 'Sincerely' battle here.

I guess that's for when 'what about' is too much for writers on the site? :bag: ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby drewd » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:58 pm

greatgoo wrote:
Chris wrote:ESPN and SI, apparently, said that the Bulls are the front runner...or so the Bulls media people think, and are basically "introducing Amare".


SI Agrees,

Other observations from Friday in Phoenix:

• The hot topics were the Heat-Raptors trade, which most players believed to be a step up for Miami, and a rumored Suns-Bulls swap that had Amaré Stoudemire and parts headed to Chicago in exchange for Tyrus Thomas and parts. This was considered enough of a sure thing that Chicago media folks were already making their introductions to Amaré.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ml?eref=sircrc


thats like the first bulls article, there are like 8 cavs ones out there....
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby reppination7 » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:26 pm

Chris wrote:ESPN and SI, apparently, said that the Bulls are the front runner...or so the Bulls media people think, and are basically "introducing Amare".


wasnt it the same thing with kobe 2 offseasons ago?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Chris » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:25 pm

W&G's latest post as of a few minutes ago

OK, First off, my apologies for saying I would think I would be back here around the 3pm time frame today ...never should have even mentioned a given time knowing I had a precarious travel schedule.

I've been able to get some more information that should clarify, to an extent, where the Cavs stand right now. It's been made very clear by the team to try and keep expectations low in regards to potential trade options. No team likes to deal under these circumstances, but, of course when you have a trade deadline that coincides with an All Star weekend, and you happen to have one of the biggest and best player's in the game's name being tossed around in trade talks, it's kind of hard to keep the excitability of the league's fanbase in check.

But, try I will do, to basically give you guys some understanding of where I see the Suns mindset, the Cavs mindset, and Amare's mindset in the here and now.

I know we have lot of people coming out of the woodwork saying handshake deals have been done and so forth. Nothing inregards to the Suns and Cavs has been done as of now. Danny Ferry has made an offer to Steve Kerr, and he's also gone outside just the two teams, and has been working on getting a third team involved as well, to be able to give the Suns and Kerr some more creative options as well.

But, in talking to most all of the higher ups with the team, you get the feeling that they really don't feel that when all is said and done, we will have the strongest offer that the Suns will ultimately get. In a way, I sense the Cavs heirarchy is doing what I and almost all of our fans are doing ....we're trying not to set ourselves up for the ultimate letdown if ...if it doesn't end up materializing and we don't end up landing Amare.

I will say this, though. For the Suns, it's not all about this trade looking good n the surface as far as getting equitable talent back for the given asset. That's why it's hard to gage how we really stack up in the minds of the Suns. You see, the Suns see value, at this point, as salary fexibility. The more flexible they ultimately end up being in the long run, will outweigh fctors such as getting a percieved higher value back in player assets.

As it stands right now, it appears that we have a two horse race with the Cavs and the Bulls. More teams are expected ..anticipated to be looking into some offers as well. The Cavaliers want to keep the trade simple. We don't want to get ito scenarios that include multitudes of players going back and forth from differing teams rosters. We want as minimal a transition of players as possible, so that we don't have to go throug anything close to what we did last year at the deadline.

We want to keep it the nubers down, and keep our team chemistry in tact as much as possible. If, when other offers come in, what we have out there isn't good enough and would require us to begin shaking up our roster to a greater degree, I expect we would then look elsewhere.

What we've been doing more of today is basically handling the issues outside of Phoenix. We;'re looking at alternatives that would work for us if the Phoenix deal doesn't end up materializing for us.

Basically, we're hadging our bets. We're putting together alternative plans of attack as well. We aren't going to put all our eggs into this one basket and sink or swim with it, we've got to be prepared for whatever happens, and we are.

For those that have been here for the longterm at RCF, we've been talking through all the possible scenarios for months now. You all know exactly what I'm talking about in terms of what we are looking for and the possiblities as well that I have outlined in the past. What I'm saying here and now is, the STAT rumors and talks haven't changed our perceptions of the other options that also can be at our disposal.

I know we've gotten alot of talk out of the front office that we are content with our team, and that we would be happy to move forward with the team intact, and to an extent that is 100% truth. But, fans aren't fools either ...they know that we're talking and looking for ways to improve our team, and we are.

Just so happens we have alot of options available to us right now, we do have a priority of which ones we like the best, scaled down to the least favorable. I think it's safe to say that if what we have offered to Phoenix turns out to be ammanable to them, then that is the route we are going to ultimately take.

But, Steve Kerr and Danny Ferry have a strong longterm relationship and that counts for something here as well, in my book. I expect that they've talked all isues and cicumstances through. A timetable exists where we both need to know ultimately where we stand and if we can get something together between us, we will, and of not ...then we will move on at that point to other options that are available to us.

Phoenix holds the cards as far as their timetable, but, I also feel very confident that whether the Amare trade goes through between the Cavs and Suns or not, we have enough alternative plans in place that the Cavs will now be able to quickly go to one of their fallback plans and get something accomplished postively before the deadline.

I've got a Valentine's dinner engagement with my wife now ...gotta run. I'll have more tomorrow where I'll try and go into more detail. A bit frazzled and rushed right now. Hope I made some sense with this ...


Basically, I took it as the deal is very unlikely to happen and this is a tempering of expectations and readying the fans for the more...um...modest trade options the Cavs have.

So yeah, kind of a buzzkill, but there it is.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:50 pm

Chris wrote:Basically, I took it as the deal is very unlikely to happen and this is a tempering of expectations and readying the fans for the more...um...modest trade options the Cavs have.

So yeah, kind of a buzzkill, but there it is.


I don't know if it means that it's unlikely, but it does mean it is not a slam dunk at this point. It's wise to temper our enthusiasm.

I'm interested in what the other options might be.

I could actually see one of drewd's proposals being floated by Phoenix to move Richardson.

And I might be okay with that if Amare does sign a long term deal. The big problem would be a question on defense with both players.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby onlyindreams » Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:06 pm

People seem to be disappointed by this over at RCF, but that's because they were assuming a lot and believing every insider that had a source. It got out of control over there with people almost expecting to hear it was a done deal any minute. The Suns are going to take their time and smoke out all potential bidders. Unfortunately we're limited in what we can offer in terms of talent.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Chris » Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:17 pm

onlyindreams wrote:People seem to be disappointed by this over at RCF, but that's because they were assuming a lot and believing every insider that had a source. It got out of control over there with people almost expecting to hear it was a done deal any minute. The Suns are going to take their time and smoke out all potential bidders. Unfortunately we're limited in what we can offer in terms of talent.


I dunno. If Wine and Gold didnt want that reaction he shouldn't have posted like it was likely we'd get Amare on Friday night, talking of LeBron and Stoudemire "speaking privately" and Amare wanting to sign long term with us and shit.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby onlyindreams » Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:28 pm

You're probably right, I just took his post with a grain of salt because you know something like this won't be easy when it involves one of the top 10 or so players in the game.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:09 pm

Chris wrote:
I dunno. If Wine and Gold didnt want that reaction he shouldn't have posted like it was likely we'd get Amare on Friday night, talking of LeBron and Stoudemire "speaking privately" and Amare wanting to sign long term with us and shit.


I'm sure that was what he was hearing at the time and he shared. Things haven't broken that way right now.

As W&G have said, Amare can dictate this is he comes out and says publicly that he will only re-up longterm with the Cavs at this point. Of course that undermines any bidding war for Phoenix. It's possible Phoenix knows this and hasn't shared and is using Chicago to try to drive up the price.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:06 am

Latest from W&G:
We simply won't wait around after a certain point. But, I wouldn't be surprised if Phoenix gets this settled on Monday. Not basing it on anything but my gut feeling. I think they have a pretty good idea what direction they're headed in with this trade, and they won't let it drag on too long.

The one angle that Chicago and other teams would have to have in their minds is, will Amare commit to them longterm ? The only team he openly seems happy to go to is Cleveland, and that's the ballgame right there, to me. He wants to play for a championship, is what he said.

The other angle at play here is the silent one that nobody talks about. That's Phil Knight and Nike. They have alot invested in the Lebron James Brand ...it is their desire to see Lebron ascend to Jordan-esque status. What's good for Lebron, is good for Nike, is good for the NBA, is good for basketball.

Lebron only ascends to that level by producing one thing to his resume that can get him to that level ...that is multiple championships. They are into year six of their longterm investment into the LBJ brand, and I think when looking at the Jordan roadmap, it's time for Lebron to begin to make that similar ascension.

If you'll notice, it didn't take Lebron and Nike long to get Mo Williams into the fold, and under the Nike umbrella. Getting that next big piece to put with Lebron that is also in the Nike portfolio will be key now ...just so happens that circumstances and planets may be aligning.

What I'm saying is ..alot of powers in the game would like to see the planets align here. It's a moneymaker. Not saying that that means it's going to happen, just saying it's another reason to think that it very well could.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Umph » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:48 am

This W&G stuff is interesting to read (Nike conspiracy... love it!). Would love to hear more from the LBJ side. I have a feeling based on absolutely nothing that LeBron holds all the power in this. If LeBron tells you "come to Cleveland, you and I will win a bunch of championships together" can you really say no?
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby jb » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:25 am

aoxo1 wrote:Latest from W&G:
We simply won't wait around after a certain point. But, I wouldn't be surprised if Phoenix gets this settled on Monday. Not basing it on anything but my gut feeling. I think they have a pretty good idea what direction they're headed in with this trade, and they won't let it drag on too long.

The one angle that Chicago and other teams would have to have in their minds is, will Amare commit to them longterm ? The only team he openly seems happy to go to is Cleveland, and that's the ballgame right there, to me. He wants to play for a championship, is what he said.

The other angle at play here is the silent one that nobody talks about. That's Phil Knight and Nike. They have alot invested in the Lebron James Brand ...it is their desire to see Lebron ascend to Jordan-esque status. What's good for Lebron, is good for Nike, is good for the NBA, is good for basketball.

Lebron only ascends to that level by producing one thing to his resume that can get him to that level ...that is multiple championships. They are into year six of their longterm investment into the LBJ brand, and I think when looking at the Jordan roadmap, it's time for Lebron to begin to make that similar ascension.

If you'll notice, it didn't take Lebron and Nike long to get Mo Williams into the fold, and under the Nike umbrella. Getting that next big piece to put with Lebron that is also in the Nike portfolio will be key now ...just so happens that circumstances and planets may be aligning.

What I'm saying is ..alot of powers in the game would like to see the planets align here. It's a moneymaker. Not saying that that means it's going to happen, just saying it's another reason to think that it very well could.


C'mon man.

Are you seriously teiing me the NBA is shady?

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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Exit_Stage_Left » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:00 pm

I have a bad feeling the Amare to the Cavs stuff will start quieting down soon...I haven't seen any reports that say our deal is good enough, but I have seen the ones that say the deal falls short. Here's to hoping I'm wrong.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby TribeNut » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:38 pm

My inside sources tell me that we will know Amare's destination by the end of the day on February 19th.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby consigliere » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:01 am

Reading that longwinded post by W&G, actually several now, makes me very skeptical. Not only do I find it unlikely that any Cavs high level exec would be posting on a message board, but it is downright not possible. The team would know about it and squash it immediately as that is just not the way they operate. Like the Indians have baseball ops people perusing these sites, I am sure the Cavaliers have people doing it too.

When I read those W&G posts it is almost like a rehash of the news from ESPN, SI, etc that just came out, just written differently and in a wordy exchange. It's like cracking open the horoscopes and how 7-10 things are predicted to happen or everything is intentionally vague so the forecast is never wrong. Which is what I am getting when reading W&G as if we deal for Amare he was right but if we don't he was right too.

Lemme know when Windhorst posts something, because otherwise I ain't buying what this guy is selling until he gives actual specifics and facts instead of lame posts with lots of noise but little substance. I may be completely off base, and I apologize, but just my two cents.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:29 am

Consigliere wrote:Reading that longwinded post by W&G, actually several now, makes me very skeptical. Not only do I find it unlikely that any Cavs high level exec would be posting on a message board, but it is downright not possible. The team would know about it and squash it immediately as that is just not the way they operate. Like the Indians have baseball ops people perusing these sites, I am sure the Cavaliers have people doing it too.

When I read those W&G posts it is almost like a rehash of the news from ESPN, SI, etc that just came out, just written differently and in a wordy exchange. It's like cracking open the horoscopes and how 7-10 things are predicted to happen or everything is intentionally vague so the forecast is never wrong. Which is what I am getting when reading W&G as if we deal for Amare he was right but if we don't he was right too.

Lemme know when Windhorst posts something, because otherwise I ain't buying what this guy is selling until he gives actual specifics and facts instead of lame posts with lots of noise but little substance. I may be completely off base, and I apologize, but just my two cents.


Good post.

But, consider this. The guy is two for two on the past two big trades the Cavs have made. Like dead on exact.

A good and crazy theory my friend floated out there was that he was told by Ferry to do these things to gage the feelings on how the fans felt about such a thing.

I think if he's anything, he's someone like a trainer.

Far out there in terms of theories.

The Tribe has foks lurking the boards? What about the Browns? I know this a partner of STO, just curious about that.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:45 am

W & G is not a high level exec and never gives away details beyond general thought processes. More than once he has told the entire board over there to chill because he cannot give any details. His words on the Amare situation are just an extension of what ESPN already reported.

He is some sort of Scout/player development guy.

Cripe if you ever subscribed to the other site, the insiders there get tidbits from people inside the front office and agents all the time. Lane was telling people about the Grantham stabbing Romeo in the back thing for months before it came out.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby diminishingskills » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:35 am

I always appreciate W&G's take on things, as he knows hoops.

Inside information ... not so much. In that regard, I see him as more of a psychic/seer. You do know how they work, don't you? It has 0% to do with ESP and 100% to do with psychology. If you go to a psychic asking to talk to your dear departed Aunt Bea, the psychic knows that you WANT to talk to dear departed Aunt Bea ... and so you are likely to believe anything the psychic says with regards to Aunt Bea ("I can see her ... she's in a good place ... ") As the saying goes, why don't psychics win more lotteries? (Or make a killing in the stock market, or clean out Vegas at the sports book, or whatever.)

Same thing on RCF. You have dozens of Cavs fans just hungering for Cavs news, especially about a potential trade involving a superstar, which is about as good as it gets rumor-wise. Then you have somebody come along who feeds off that hunger, and provides tidbits about potential deals ... which are bought into because the readers want to buy into them. Better yet, the information provided is vague, which allows those readers' imaginations to run wild and fill in the story in the way they (the readers) want it to be filled. And that vagueness also allows for later deniability ("usually these things don't work out").

I also like the suggestion upthread -- that W&G may be used by the front office as a way to gauge fan reaction to proposed moves. Not that such a poll should determine whether or not a move is made ... more to judge how much immediate damage control may need to be done.

I have no reason to doubt W&G's legitimacy, and he seems like a stand-up guy. I just think that too many people over on RCF see him as "king", when "pawn" is probably closer to the mark.

That said, I enjoy his takes and will continue to read him.

YMMV.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby ASPDawgpound12 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:07 am

http://media.www.thelantern.com/media/storage/paper333/news/2009/02/13/Campus/Breaking.News.Source.Cavs.Trade.For.Stoudemire-3630700.shtml

This is the link to The Lantern, tOSU's student newspaper. I can't believe they are allowed to post something without any credible sources at all. That's not a good start to someone's career :thud:
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Ziner » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:55 am

Well supposedly today is the day. Interested to see what goes down. I still cant figure out what Chicago can offer Phoenix that is better than our offer. Gooden, Tyrus Thomas, Cedric Simmons and picks arent better than Wally, JJ, and picks. Wally has more coming off the books and JJ and Thomas are both still unproven and raw. Their pick would be better, but when it comes down to it this deal is about money not talent. Especially if we throw in SSB and take Richardson. However with out a pick up of say Joe Smith being bought out our depth in the front court becomes very shallow.

I'm saying 20% chance its gets done. 10% chance it goes to Chicago. They may just come to their senses and not do anything. They can certainly hold out until Thursday too.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby CP » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:03 am

In the Camby thread, I just convinced myself to go all-in on Stoudemire.

Forcing KG and Pierce to man up against the younger LBJ and Amare for a 7 game series is more than they can handle. When you are really concerned about defense against the C's, you go big:

PG - Mo
SG - LeBron
SF - Amare
PF - Wallace
C - Big Z

A little different on defense where Z guards their 5, Wallace guards Garnett, LeBron sits on Pierce and Amare refuses to let the old and slow Allen get a shot off while Mo deals with Rondo.

I don't see how Boston can matchup with that and Pierce and Garnett can't play the minutes in a series that you can get from Amare and LBJ (particularly since they are the ones who have to guard Amare and LBJ).
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby CP » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:26 am

Want crazy?

Channeled drewd for a second to come up with this gem...

Four-way trade between Cleveland, Portland, Phoenix, Milwaukee

CLE: Amare Stoudemire, Malik Allen
POR: Richard Jefferson, Grant Hill
PHO: Raef LaFrenz, Eric Snow, JJ Hickson, 2009 CLE 1st round pick, 2011 CLE 1st round pick
MIL: Travis Outlaw, Wally Szczerbiak, 2009 POR 2nd round pick

Basically uses the desires of others (Portland for Jefferson and veteran help, Phoenix gets $20 mil in expiring deals/young PF/2 1sts, Milwaukee gets Wally's $13M deal/pick/player) to net us Amare Stoudemire without destroying our rotations. Sweetens the pot for Phoenix by jumping the expiring money to $20 million. Nets Portland the veteran presence it needs and can't get due to the Miles thing. Lets Milwaukee start to re-tool and gets them out from under another deal.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby waborat » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:40 am

Really interested to see what PHO even does now that Porter is on the way out? They could easily sit pat and give Gentry a chance with a full tool box to work with? It's not like they couldn't wait until summer to see what transpires? Only implying...
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:48 am

And W&G is in the hospital right now as he was having chest discomfort over the past week.

Anyways, Jon in VA from RCF explained W&G quite well:

Yes, of course. Mostly he just posts as a fan. Since he doesn't work directly with Ferry's staff he can express his opinons without tipping off which way the organization is leaning. Sometimes he posts thing he's learned from talking with people inside the organization to help us understand why things happen. Sometimes he's asked to communicate something to get fan reaction. And yes, I'm sure there's times he's asked to calm things down or shut things down because it risks an ongoing deal.


Something about him is that the Cavs know that he posts on RCF. They don't mind because he's not privy to the deeper dealings of the team but he does have a good feel for the org. I think the Cavs like having him communicating with the most rabid Cavs fans. He may also relay some of the vibe he gets from the boards.

For instance, in one of his Amare posts he said he was asked to lower expectations, but still he admitted things that Ferry has not yet admitted in public. This may very well have been a miscommunication.

He walks a fine line, but we do benefit from it, but we benefit 999x more from his general knowledge of the game and how the NBA really works.


W&G is not what I'd call a direct insider and for a good while he wasn't even in the org, and perhaps that's helped him last as long as he has, but this is why all the oldtimers on the board are protective of the guy and just hate it when new members start badgering him, begging him for answers he obviously cannot give, or question his legitimacy.


W&G just has a lot of connections inside the org. He has a good idea of what direction they are intending on going and what their philosophies are regarding trades, etc. He also knows the game.

Ferry's still saying he hasn't talked to Phoenix. I think we know that's garbage. We also know the Cavs likely asked W&G to lower expectations a bit. They probably heard that many fans thought it was a done deal.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Ziner » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:05 pm

I went on a Phoenix board and were laughing at our Wally, JJ, 1st rounder trade for Amare. To me this deal is about finances not talent. So I dont see how that isnt better than Gooden, Simmons, Tyrus Thomas, Noah, and Sefalosha. I am not convinced CHI would give this much up anyways with out getting warm bodies in return. They still need 12 bodies.

It isnt like the Chicago group offers any future All Stars, and while JJ may never see an AS game either, Wally gives them 6 million more than Gooden.

Screw it, get this thing done. Add Snow and SSB and take Richardson back to make it even more appealing cap-wise. If you get a guy such as Amare and he plans to resign taking contracts past 2010 arent as big of a deal.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby Mr. MacPhisto » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:18 pm

Ziner wrote:I went on a Phoenix board and were laughing at our Wally, JJ, 1st rounder trade for Amare. To me this deal is about finances not talent. So I dont see how that isnt better than Gooden, Simmons, Tyrus Thomas, Noah, and Sefalosha. I am not convinced CHI would give this much up anyways with out getting warm bodies in return. They still need 12 bodies.

It isnt like the Chicago group offers any future All Stars, and while JJ may never see an AS game either, Wally gives them 6 million more than Gooden.

Screw it, get this thing done. Add Snow and SSB and take Richardson back to make it even more appealing cap-wise. If you get a guy such as Amare and he plans to resign taking contracts past 2010 arent as big of a deal.


I think that's what they don't realize. Phoenix wants to dump salary.

Latest rumor is that Phoenix wants to add Matt Barnes into a Stoudemire deal. That would give the Cavs the extra backcourt player they need for depth.

Looks like the Bulls are going after Camby and Kaman, so Phoenix may have waited too long.

Just reading the tea leaves, but I think the Cavs are sticking with Wally, Hickson, and a #1.

If this is the case and Phoenix goes for it then I might be tempted to trade Snow (since the Cavs now seem willing to do that) to OKC for Watson if they are willing to give up one of their firsts to move him. That would allow us to lose our first rounder but pick up one that is likely to be higher or around the same pick.
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Re: Stoudemire to the Cavs?

Unread postby fundamentals » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:26 pm

Something big is going to happen, just patiently waiting. :hide:
"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

"We had a great time together."
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