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More KLove talk

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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:49 pm

OldDawg wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
OldDawg wrote:No noise for a while.

1) Are the TWolves still hoping to up the trade value for KLove, or

2) Do the Cavs know they have them by the balls, and are holding firm on no Wiggins, since KLove has said he'd only extend his conract for the Cavs.


Not sure there can be any noise given Wiggins can't be dealt for another 25 days. In fact, I'd say if holding onto Wiggins is your hope, no noise now equates to potentially bad news since you don't have to wait if Wiggins isn't a part of the deal.

I do believe they can agree to terms of a trade now and execute it when the 25 days are up, no?


Not formally, no. They can't even discuss it, allegedly. But that's not what's actually happening. What's actually happening is exactly what you mentioned.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:24 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Spin wrote:The Cavs and NBA.com have stopped selling Andrew Wiggins jerseys.

It's a done deal, just a matter of waiting until Wigs can be traded.



And yes, Wiggins is gone. When the TWolves owner says Love will be dealt on August 23rd or 24th, what do you think the reason for that is?

I would be interested in knowing why there's a 30 day period of time between when a rookie is signed and when he can be dealt. Seems really stupid and likely to lead to situations exactly like this that make the league look like a joke.


Probably has to do with Stepien - or some other rummy that was running the Cavs at one point or another.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CharacterIV » Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:44 pm

Wiggins is headed to Minny, and we should be glad for it. The cosmic gork that lead to us getting to draft him at #1 has put us in a dead-lock situation to be able to trade for a legit NBA superstar, who we have legit ability to resign.

I may be preaching to the choir here, but I've seen too much trepidation over this deal from Cleveland fans out there who just need to stop being so... Cleveland fan-ish.

To the people who talk about how trading him is throwing away the keys to a dynasty: you have to get one fish in the boat before you can think about getting 2 or more. Let's just worry about winning one championship, alright?

Besides, Love can be just as big a dynasty component as Wiggins, maybe even more so. He's 25. Let's say LeBron has 2-3 PEAK years left. LeBron is a unique physical specimen, no reason to think he can't stay at peak until he's 32-33, right? That'll be right when Love turns 27-28, the beginning of the period widely regarded as the best years of most NBA players careers. When K-Love turns 30? Then Kyrie is 27, just headed into his presumable best years. You almost couldn't plan it better, because 36-year-old fogey LeBron will still be around, probably using the Old Man-in-the-Pickup-League tricks he'll invariably develop to score on the kids at that point.

To the people who think Wiggins helps our present championship odds more than Love: really? I'm not gonna harp on how good Love is, plenty of guys who know the game better than I do and have tons of advanced metrics have already done that, but here's one angle that I don't see brought up as often:

What if LeBron gets hurt? We've been discounting this as a possibility because he is seemingly superhuman, but suppose it happens?

Sure, if he goes down in the playoffs for any extended period of time, we're not winning the Championship, but if he gets injured during the regular season? Suppose we're dogfighting for home court down the stretch and LeBron gets hurt for a few weeks. A Love-Kyrie team keeps us in the running during that time, IMO, whereas if it's Kyrie-Wiggins-Waiters trying to carry the load, I see the backslide coming.

To the people who say "Why do the deal now? Wait for the deadline, Flip will take a Wiggins-less offer at that point!"

How do we know that? Sure seems to me like he wants this handled before training camp opens, he doesn't want Love's situation looming large over the whole season. If we back off, he may make the less-desirable deal with Chicago, and then we have to look forward to facing Love instead of him being the third component of our Big 3.

Love doesn't have any motivation to choose Cleveland in free agency, remember, even if we do chisel out enough space to sign him (I'm no cap-ologist, but I'm skeptical. Pretty sure it relies on using Heywood's goofy $10mm unguaranteed contract as part of a S&T.) LeBron's personal invite is tempting, but Love wants 2 things: fat cash and title chances. He can get that in Chicago running with D-Rose and Noah. He can get that in Golden State, if he's traded there. If he gets traded to a contender this year, he's resigning there because it gives him the most cash. We want to make sure that contender is Cleveland, and Wiggins seals the deal. It's a total bummer to give up on a talented, seemingly enthusiastic kid with obvious top-shelf talent, but it's gotta get done.

Here's my personal favorite justification/rationalization for the deal, from a friend of mine: as noted earlier, it was a hiccup in the rules of probability that led to the Cavs landing the #1 pick for the third time in four years, a cosmic gork. If we'd ended up drafting where we were supposed to, at #9, and LeBron decided to come back home anyway, does anyone bat an eye if we traded Noah Vonleh as part of a deal for Love?

The Cavs having Wiggins, if only for a month or two, was a glitch in the Matrix. This trade is overwriting the faulty code.

People need to see this as what it is, the single biggest/best trade in Cleveland sports history, or at least since the title drought began. No deal has realistically increased a Cleveland team's Championship chances more, not anything during LeBron's first stay, not any deals made with the late 90's Indians.

Everybody needs to understand that if this deal goes through as it is presently understood to be constituted, the 2014-15 Cleveland Cavaliers will be the most talented, fun-to-watch team to play in this city since the 1995 Indians, and the most title-ready since... I dunno? The biggest thing standing in their way will be the inevitable adjustment period, especially for a rookie coach, but while he's an NBA rookie, he's got a resume in EuroBall that reads "been there, done that," and according to people in the know, he's a b-ball genius. I think he'll be fine.

TL;DR, I dig Wiggins, but I love Love. Make the deal, and do it ASAP.

PS: Get Gorgui Dieng, too. I like him.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:39 pm

CharacterIV wrote:Wiggins is headed to Minny, and we should be glad for it. The cosmic gork that lead to us getting to draft him at #1 has put us in a dead-lock situation to be able to trade for a legit NBA superstar, who we have legit ability to resign.

I may be preaching to the choir here, but I've seen too much trepidation over this deal from Cleveland fans out there who just need to stop being so... Cleveland fan-ish.

To the people who talk about how trading him is throwing away the keys to a dynasty: you have to get one fish in the boat before you can think about getting 2 or more. Let's just worry about winning one championship, alright?

Besides, Love can be just as big a dynasty component as Wiggins, maybe even more so. He's 25. Let's say LeBron has 2-3 PEAK years left. LeBron is a unique physical specimen, no reason to think he can't stay at peak until he's 32-33, right? That'll be right when Love turns 27-28, the beginning of the period widely regarded as the best years of most NBA players careers. When K-Love turns 30? Then Kyrie is 27, just headed into his presumable best years. You almost couldn't plan it better, because 36-year-old fogey LeBron will still be around, probably using the Old Man-in-the-Pickup-League tricks he'll invariably develop to score on the kids at that point.

To the people who think Wiggins helps our present championship odds more than Love: really? I'm not gonna harp on how good Love is, plenty of guys who know the game better than I do and have tons of advanced metrics have already done that, but here's one angle that I don't see brought up as often:

What if LeBron gets hurt? We've been discounting this as a possibility because he is seemingly superhuman, but suppose it happens?

Sure, if he goes down in the playoffs for any extended period of time, we're not winning the Championship, but if he gets injured during the regular season? Suppose we're dogfighting for home court down the stretch and LeBron gets hurt for a few weeks. A Love-Kyrie team keeps us in the running during that time, IMO, whereas if it's Kyrie-Wiggins-Waiters trying to carry the load, I see the backslide coming.

To the people who say "Why do the deal now? Wait for the deadline, Flip will take a Wiggins-less offer at that point!"

How do we know that? Sure seems to me like he wants this handled before training camp opens, he doesn't want Love's situation looming large over the whole season. If we back off, he may make the less-desirable deal with Chicago, and then we have to look forward to facing Love instead of him being the third component of our Big 3.

Love doesn't have any motivation to choose Cleveland in free agency, remember, even if we do chisel out enough space to sign him (I'm no cap-ologist, but I'm skeptical. Pretty sure it relies on using Heywood's goofy $10mm unguaranteed contract as part of a S&T.) LeBron's personal invite is tempting, but Love wants 2 things: fat cash and title chances. He can get that in Chicago running with D-Rose and Noah. He can get that in Golden State, if he's traded there. If he gets traded to a contender this year, he's resigning there because it gives him the most cash. We want to make sure that contender is Cleveland, and Wiggins seals the deal. It's a total bummer to give up on a talented, seemingly enthusiastic kid with obvious top-shelf talent, but it's gotta get done.

Here's my personal favorite justification/rationalization for the deal, from a friend of mine: as noted earlier, it was a hiccup in the rules of probability that led to the Cavs landing the #1 pick for the third time in four years, a cosmic gork. If we'd ended up drafting where we were supposed to, at #9, and LeBron decided to come back home anyway, does anyone bat an eye if we traded Noah Vonleh as part of a deal for Love?

The Cavs having Wiggins, if only for a month or two, was a glitch in the Matrix. This trade is overwriting the faulty code.

People need to see this as what it is, the single biggest/best trade in Cleveland sports history, or at least since the title drought began. No deal has realistically increased a Cleveland team's Championship chances more, not anything during LeBron's first stay, not any deals made with the late 90's Indians.

Everybody needs to understand that if this deal goes through as it is presently understood to be constituted, the 2014-15 Cleveland Cavaliers will be the most talented, fun-to-watch team to play in this city since the 1995 Indians, and the most title-ready since... I dunno? The biggest thing standing in their way will be the inevitable adjustment period, especially for a rookie coach, but while he's an NBA rookie, he's got a resume in EuroBall that reads "been there, done that," and according to people in the know, he's a b-ball genius. I think he'll be fine.

TL;DR, I dig Wiggins, but I love Love. Make the deal, and do it ASAP.

PS: Get Gorgui Dieng, too. I like him.


Look, I'm ok with dealing Wiggins - mainly cause I don't understand what the hell ANYONE wants a package of Bennet and Waiters.

But, to be clear, by your rationale a guy making minumum wage who happens to find 10 grand under a rock, should just use it on blow and hookers cause it's just found money anyway. Matters not how fortunate they were to get overall #1, it matters A. That they got overall number 1 and B. How the player they chose plays, or what they get for him.

Again, I'm ok with moving him cause you gotta give something good to get something good. I'm not ok with moving him cause they mathematically deserved number 9.

And if LBJ gets hurt it don't matter if you have Love or Wiggins. You're F'd.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CharacterIV » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:15 am

leadpipe wrote:
CharacterIV wrote:Wiggins is headed to Minny, and we should be glad for it. The cosmic gork that lead to us getting to draft him at #1 has put us in a dead-lock situation to be able to trade for a legit NBA superstar, who we have legit ability to resign.

<snip>

TL;DR, I dig Wiggins, but I love Love. Make the deal, and do it ASAP.

PS: Get Gorgui Dieng, too. I like him.


Look, I'm ok with dealing Wiggins - mainly cause I don't understand what the hell ANYONE wants a package of Bennet and Waiters.

But, to be clear, by your rationale a guy making minumum wage who happens to find 10 grand under a rock, should just use it on blow and hookers cause it's just found money anyway. Matters not how fortunate they were to get overall #1, it matters A. That they got overall number 1 and B. How the player they chose plays, or what they get for him.

Again, I'm ok with moving him cause you gotta give something good to get something good. I'm not ok with moving him cause they mathematically deserved number 9.

And if LBJ gets hurt it don't matter if you have Love or Wiggins. You're F'd.


My rationalization/justification about the cosmic improbability of drafting Wiggins was mostly meant to be glib. I'm not advocating the idea that seeking balance in the universe is a solid choice as a basketball personnel strategy.

The real crux of my point is that if you find a guy selling something worth $10,000 but only asking $7,500, you don't walk away hoping it's an effective strategy to haggle the guy down to $5,000 for it. You pay him the $7,500 he's asking before someone else comes up and offers $6,000 and he takes it.

(Note: in this imperfect hypothetical, you can't offer $6,000. Suppose you only have a $5,000 bill (Wiggins) and a $2,500 bill (Bennett, Pick.)

And of course the Cavs are F'ed if LeBron goes down, especially in the playoffs. But if he gets some kind of nagging injury throughout the regular season, he'd feel a lot better about resting it with Love and Kyrie behind him than just Kyrie and Wiggins.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:13 am

CharacterIV wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
CharacterIV wrote:Wiggins is headed to Minny, and we should be glad for it. The cosmic gork that lead to us getting to draft him at #1 has put us in a dead-lock situation to be able to trade for a legit NBA superstar, who we have legit ability to resign.

<snip>

TL;DR, I dig Wiggins, but I love Love. Make the deal, and do it ASAP.

PS: Get Gorgui Dieng, too. I like him.


Look, I'm ok with dealing Wiggins - mainly cause I don't understand what the hell ANYONE wants a package of Bennet and Waiters.

But, to be clear, by your rationale a guy making minumum wage who happens to find 10 grand under a rock, should just use it on blow and hookers cause it's just found money anyway. Matters not how fortunate they were to get overall #1, it matters A. That they got overall number 1 and B. How the player they chose plays, or what they get for him.

Again, I'm ok with moving him cause you gotta give something good to get something good. I'm not ok with moving him cause they mathematically deserved number 9.

And if LBJ gets hurt it don't matter if you have Love or Wiggins. You're F'd.


My rationalization/justification about the cosmic improbability of drafting Wiggins was mostly meant to be glib. I'm not advocating the idea that seeking balance in the universe is a solid choice as a basketball personnel strategy.

The real crux of my point is that if you find a guy selling something worth $10,000 but only asking $7,500, you don't walk away hoping it's an effective strategy to haggle the guy down to $5,000 for it. You pay him the $7,500 he's asking before someone else comes up and offers $6,000 and he takes it.

(Note: in this imperfect hypothetical, you can't offer $6,000. Suppose you only have a $5,000 bill (Wiggins) and a $2,500 bill (Bennett, Pick.)

And of course the Cavs are F'ed if LeBron goes down, especially in the playoffs. But if he gets some kind of nagging injury throughout the regular season, he'd feel a lot better about resting it with Love and Kyrie behind him than just Kyrie and Wiggins.


With a Lebron injury you'd be better off with Wiggins under the slight % chance he's all world. We've seen what Kevin Love can do with no team behind him. And yes, the Cavs and T-Wolves minus LBJ and Love both qualify as "no team." At best.

But really, bottom line in this whole thing, and to the point of many posts in the thread - the Cavs will NEVER be in so strong a position they get Love without Wiggins, cause what they have to offer minus Wiggins blows.

So yeah, to your point, even with Wiggins you're probably still getting the best of it - I've said this a couple times already, but again, and bottom line for me, if Kevin Love was in the draft this year, and the Cavs have the team they have now, they draft Love before Wiggins without even thinking about it, and we'd all love it. And if that's the case, I'm having a hard time arguing against the move.

and I think that's the case.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby bookelly » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:04 am

Adding Dieng would really take a lot of the sting out of trading Wigs. I'd be pretty stoked if we could get the 3rd best player in the game AND a young rim defender with huge offensive upside, especially when you consider the talent that will surround him.

Kylie/Delly
Miller/Dion/Allen
King/Jones
Love/TT/Powell
Dieng/Andy/Haywood

Wow. :nanner: :woot: (inlove)
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:22 am

peeker643 wrote:Not formally, no. They can't even discuss it, allegedly. But that's not what's actually happening. What's actually happening is exactly what you mentioned.


Actually, teams are allowed to discuss and complete a deal during the 30 day window, they're just not allowed to formally announce it to the public.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby OldDawg » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:28 am

Side question for you guys on this whole trade. I'm clinging to the cake-and-eat-it-too scenario of keeping Wiggins. Minny floated it out there that Love will be traded on the 23rd / 24th. Again, Minny floated that. Not the Cavs. I think Minny has been floating stuff for their own benefit all along.

Just your opinion on this. All the trade discussion involves Bennett. The kid was horrible last year, but did show some promise this off-season. If you were trading with the Cavs, would you covet Bennett more than TT? I just don't hear much TT talk. He's actually been a starter in the league and is still young. Or is the "upside" of Bennett that much higher?

To follow that up, then, could the Cavs (who are in the driver's seat here) offer Waiters and TT + pick(s) for Love? They both were starters for the Cavs. Waiters is coming off a solid season. Then we plug Wiggins into Waiter's spot and Love into TT's spot. Minny gets 2 starters and a pick(s).

Everyone knows the upside of Wiggins is huge, but could the Cavs refuse to trade him and offer what I've proposed?
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CharacterIV » Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:22 am

OldDawg wrote:Side question for you guys on this whole trade. I'm clinging to the cake-and-eat-it-too scenario of keeping Wiggins. Minny floated it out there that Love will be traded on the 23rd / 24th. Again, Minny floated that. Not the Cavs. I think Minny has been floating stuff for their own benefit all along.

Just your opinion on this. All the trade discussion involves Bennett. The kid was horrible last year, but did show some promise this off-season. If you were trading with the Cavs, would you covet Bennett more than TT? I just don't hear much TT talk. He's actually been a starter in the league and is still young. Or is the "upside" of Bennett that much higher?

To follow that up, then, could the Cavs (who are in the driver's seat here) offer Waiters and TT + pick(s) for Love? They both were starters for the Cavs. Waiters is coming off a solid season. Then we plug Wiggins into Waiter's spot and Love into TT's spot. Minny gets 2 starters and a pick(s).

Everyone knows the upside of Wiggins is huge, but could the Cavs refuse to trade him and offer what I've proposed?


Anyone who watched Summer League has to at least be a little interested in Bennett. He looked like a different player, but the only actual record on him is still the big disappointment from last year. The attitude around the league is that TT is Just Another Guy. Waiters is viewed as talented, but not a cornerstone by any means.

Wiggins is the prize. Flip can't justify taking a Cleveland deal to his boss and the fans without Wiggins. If we balk now, then maybe Chicago comes back in with a Mirotic-less offer (Gibson, McDermott, X) and swipes Love.

I absolutely believe that Flip is feeding the media to his benefit. The Chicago offer was mostly fiction, I think (at least the part where they included Mirotic) but there's definitely enough interest there to make something real out of it if we balk at sending Wiggins.

Maybe Minny would take TT instead of Bennett, but I don't think that's as likely to happen on our side: 1. TT can actually play the 5, Bennett can't. We need centers. 2. TT is repped by Rich Paul, so he's got a close relationship with the LeBron camp. It may even lead to us overpaying him come contract time as a thank-you to Rich Paul.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:22 pm

CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Not formally, no. They can't even discuss it, allegedly. But that's not what's actually happening. What's actually happening is exactly what you mentioned.


Actually, teams are allowed to discuss and complete a deal during the 30 day window, they're just not allowed to formally announce it to the public.


Thanks CTB'07.

Now, can someone explain why?

How is this beneficial for Wiggins or the league as opposed to getting it done and over with once he has a monetary value to his contract?
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby jerryroche » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:49 pm

Talent-wise, I've got no problem with putting Wiggins in a deal for Love. Money-wise, it's another thing, as outlined by Pluto in the PD a week or so ago. The Cavs have already started dumping salary (trading a perfectly good back-up center in Tyler Zeller) in anticipation of having to pay for a "Big Three." What happens two or three years down the road vis-a-vis the salary cap? Will the Cavs be stuck with Irving, Love, LBJ and a buncha crap, like the Heat the last two years? Or am I just being silly?
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby scott » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:33 pm

jerryroche wrote:Talent-wise, I've got no problem with putting Wiggins in a deal for Love. Money-wise, it's another thing, as outlined by Pluto in the PD a week or so ago. The Cavs have already started dumping salary (trading a perfectly good back-up center in Tyler Zeller) in anticipation of having to pay for a "Big Three." What happens two or three years down the road vis-a-vis the salary cap? Will the Cavs be stuck with Irving, Love, LBJ and a buncha crap, like the Heat the last two years? Or am I just being silly?


They are playing for this season. If they get Love and don't win it the first year it is a failure.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CharacterIV » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:38 pm

scott wrote:
jerryroche wrote:Talent-wise, I've got no problem with putting Wiggins in a deal for Love. Money-wise, it's another thing, as outlined by Pluto in the PD a week or so ago. The Cavs have already started dumping salary (trading a perfectly good back-up center in Tyler Zeller) in anticipation of having to pay for a "Big Three." What happens two or three years down the road vis-a-vis the salary cap? Will the Cavs be stuck with Irving, Love, LBJ and a buncha crap, like the Heat the last two years? Or am I just being silly?


They are playing for this season. If they get Love and don't win it the first year it is a failure.


If they get Love but don't win it in 2014-15, I don't think it's strictly a failure. Hard to expect a first time NBA coach to go right into winning championships, especially when he'll likely be locking horns with guys like Thibs, Popovich, maybe Doc Rivers in the playoffs or finals.

If they get Love and don't win it in 14-15 or 15-16, THEN it's a failure.

Life's funny sometimes. Blatt anticipated coming into a pretty low pressure environment. Put the Cavs in the playoffs and we'd be happy. Win a playoff series and we're elated. Sure, now he'll have some of the shiniest toys in the sandbox, but the expectations are Championship-or-bust.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby OldDawg » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:19 pm

The Spurs are aging. They have remained at the top due to their best players completely buying into a system and everyone else following suit. Of course, throw in the best coach in the league and great personnel moves filling in the rest of the roster. The Spurs in the 2014 finals were at their peak. They will remain VERY good, but they'll never be that good again. Almost impossible.

Bulls are a real threat this year in the East. But that's about it.

Considering the team has to gel and that we have a new coach, and considering that the Heat only won one title with their Big 3, my bar is a little lower than you guys. I say that in their first three years, at minimum they must go Eastern Finals, NBA Finals, NBA Champs. Of course, I think they can certainly exceed those expectations. I think if we keep guys together and healthy, two or three titles are possible in a 5-6 year span. But that's NEVER easy.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby redneckofsc » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:05 pm

SI is reporting the deal is pretty much done.

Wiggins and Thadues Young to Minnesota
Bennett to Philadelphia
Love to Cleveland.

Also could include some draft picks.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby scott » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:33 am

CharacterIV wrote:
scott wrote:
They are playing for this season. If they get Love and don't win it the first year it is a failure.


If they get Love but don't win it in 2014-15, I don't think it's strictly a failure. Hard to expect a first time NBA coach to go right into winning championships, especially when he'll likely be locking horns with guys like Thibs, Popovich, maybe Doc Rivers in the playoffs or finals.

If they get Love and don't win it in 14-15 or 15-16, THEN it's a failure.


The reason I say that is because they are rushing the deal when they don't have to. There are no real competitors to the Love trade. They could tell Minnesota that they are gonna hold and reconsider this trade in October and Minnesota would wait. You could have this same trade then - possibly a better trade - only lose nothing but a few weeks of practice time.

Why not let the current roster spend a couple weeks on the practice floor and see what you have in Wiggins before sending him away?

Cavs (I honestly believe LeBron is orchestrating this) are rushing the deal to get a full training camp in before the season starts so the team can gel. Win now mode.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CharacterIV » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:23 pm

With an almost complete roster overhaul and a new coach (who's never coached in the NBA) then those couple extra weeks/months could be the absolute difference. It'll be even harder because with Love you have at least 3 guys on the team who are used to being the #1 option, and Waiters also is a guy who wants his hands on the ball. That'll take time to work out.

Flip doesn't want Love's status to hang over his season. If we dither, we may lose out when he takes a Chicago offer, and while Love would want to join LBJ and Kyrie, he's more concerned about big $ and title chances. If he gets traded to Chicago, he'll probably re-sign there.

There's also the nightmare scenario where Wiggins gets injured.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby pod2dawg » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:03 am

Seems its a done deal. I've gone round & around on this and have concluded...do the deal. Win now. Worry about 3 years down the road in about 18 months. Excellent point IV, we try to outsmart this thing and Wiggy gets his leg caught in the backboard support and needs surgery....or he has a "no contact" season ending injury ( see Bentley) type thing.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CharacterIV » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:47 pm

I can't help but feel bad for Wiggins in all this. I really hope going through something like this doesn't create a crisis of confidence that would have an effect on his development.

That's one of the things that's struck me about the kid; in the albeit limited exposure I've had to him, he doesn't seem to have that brash self-confidence, the kind that eventually mutates into a snarling will to dominate. He just seems too mild-mannered. Maybe he's got the quiet confidence, but those eyes of his seem pretty big and doe-y right now.

He was drafted thinking he'd be going to a team aspiring to just make the playoffs, set to be sidekick to an All-Star PG who'd presumably get him all sorts of good looks. Pretty sweet deal. Then the LeBron rumors started, and he begins to think he'll get to be third banana for a team with title aspirations, all the while getting to learn from the King, both about how to play on the court and handle expectations of being a wunderkind off the court. That's a dream come true.

The the Love rumors start, and his name was specifically left out of LeBron's essay. Now he's having to be subject to all the Twitter speculation and conjecture, and he doesn't know if he's going to remain in this great opportunity where expectations will be lower; even if he has a rough early go as a rookie, the honeymoon period of LeBron's return will gloss over it. He'd just have to play good D and elevate for crowd-pleasin' dunks on the fast break.

In Minnesota, he'd be stuck on a team headed straight to the middle and he'd probably be expected to be a lot more productive a lot sooner. His rookie struggles would be highlighted by a crowd wondering "this is the guy we got for Love?" He'd still have a great distributor of a PG in Rubio, at least, and Minnesota has some other nice young parts, but nobody is expecting them to contend any time soon, even if Wiggins does follow a good development track.

Seems to me like all this could have a bad effect on a 19 year old, even if he's been getting national attention for the last couple of years.

I'm sure even if there is a handshake agreement on the Love deal, Griffin HAS NOT told Wiggins about it. Despite the fact that I'm sure he feels bad for not being straight with the kid, he can't trust him to keep it quiet. No way he risks a technicality screwing this up and having the league void the trade. I'm sure the only ppl who know if it's on are Griffin, Flip, Gilbert, the Wolves' owner, and mayyyyybe K-Love. (And probably LeBron.) No one there will talk.

I feel bad for Bennett, too; he's obviously put in work this offseason to condition himself, and some of the rumors have him going to Minny, while some have him being exiled to Philly, where the tank is fired up and running for at least one, possibly two more seasons.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby redneckofsc » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:39 am

The Minnesota Timberwolves have reached an agreement in principle to send All-Star forward Kevin Love to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and a protected 2015 first-round draft pick, league sources told Yahoo Sports.

Cleveland is making the deal with Minnesota with a firm agreement Love will opt out of his contract in 2015 and re-sign with the Cavaliers on a five-year, $120 million-plus contract extension, league sources told Yahoo Sports.


https://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--cavaliers-have-agreement-to-acquire-kevin-love--who-commits-to-staying-in-cleveland-054657392.html
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:56 am

I am a big fan of firm agreements...

Image

This was the deal, this was always the deal. Get Love get him signed and we have 5-6 years of highly competitive basketball. Might have gotten 8-10 if we kept Wiggins, beggars can't be choosers, need one championship before we get two.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby OldDawg » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:26 am

Ziner wrote:I am a big fan of firm agreements...

I am still ticked at Boozer about that. Cost a real opportunity at a title run.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:29 am

I hate Boozer, but knowing now what type of player Carlos Boozer is, not having him wasn't an impediment to winning a title.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby OldDawg » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:16 am

CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! wrote:I hate Boozer, but knowing now what type of player Carlos Boozer is, not having him wasn't an impediment to winning a title.


At that time, Boozer was a very solid 4. He would have been a nice sidekick for LeBron in LBJs early years. At worst, we didn't need to go looking for an upgrade at the 4. After he left, it seems like we kept looking and looking for a solid 4 man. The Cavs put a lot of time and energy looking for a good 4. If Boozer had stayed, those energies, efforts and money could have been focused on filling other holes in the lineup. That's how he screwed us. His absence hampered our ability to fill other more glaring holes.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CharacterIV » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:30 am

Important differences in situation between Boozer and Love:

1. Boozer bailed because Utah offered more money. With Love, the Cavs will be able to offer MUCH more money than anyone else, and will do so.

2. Boozer left wunderkind LeBron, when he looked really good, but no one was certain he'd reach his potential. Love is dealing with Championship LeBron, who has already ascended. He IS the best in the league and he's got dem rings on dem fingers. Only uncertainty is how long LeBron can stay ahead of Durant as #1 in the league.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby OldDawg » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:06 pm

CharacterIV wrote:Important differences in situation between Boozer and Love:

1. Boozer bailed because Utah offered more money. With Love, the Cavs will be able to offer MUCH more money than anyone else, and will do so.

2. Boozer left wunderkind LeBron, when he looked really good, but no one was certain he'd reach his potential. Love is dealing with Championship LeBron, who has already ascended. He IS the best in the league and he's got dem rings on dem fingers. Only uncertainty is how long LeBron can stay ahead of Durant as #1 in the league.

Agree completely that the two scenarios are different. Just still ticked at Boozer.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:16 pm

Everything I've read indicates Love is signing that extension. Why not wait til 2016 when the new TV contract goes into effect?

I dunno. Maybe seeing a Paul George injury highlight on loop for the last week convinced love that $120million now ain't a bad way to go.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby Toxicadam » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:24 pm

Am I the only one who wishes we drafted Nerlens Noel instead of Anthony Bennett now? He would've fit so good on this (current) team.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby dmiles » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:54 pm

There seems to be a real lack of Dion Waiters love out there.

Anyone catch the last two months stats on Waiters? I can't decide if you start the guy, or turn him loose ala, the Microwave/Ginobli. If you have some range shooters on that 2nd unit it does allow him that ability to be the focal point.

Either way the current deal being reported DOES NOT include any of the Utah contracts or the MEM/MIA first round picks. If so, I am not sure they are finished, maybe they use some assets on a 2nd deal to get a Center.

Either way, basketball for the Cleveland fan has been turned upside down. Now do we remain cynical and enjoy the ride, or just say fuck it and enjoy the ride. Yes there's been a lot of luck, but no more so than the Spurs getting Tim Duncan because David Robinson and Sean Elliot missed most of the season getting them a 3rd worst record and a fighter's chance. And no I am not saying the Cavs front office is as good, I am just saying sometimes the stars do have to align. No doubt they excelled keeping great players around him, as well as Pop being one of the best in the business but there was still a little luck in getting Duncan.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby dmiles » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:58 pm

Correction the current rumor is the Heat pick will be sent in the deal.

Cleveland will (for now) still have the Memphis pick and it's own pick.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby scott » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:35 pm

Add Ray Allen. Add Shawn Marion. Work out a deal to get a backup big with some ability to defend the rim without mortgaging the future.

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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby Doc » Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:35 pm

Kyrie, Dion, LeBron, Love, Andy

Delly, Allen?, Miller, Marion?, Tristan, Jones, 12th man/backup center

Even if only for a year, I'd consider this a win. Keeping that core if LeBron and Love re up for multiple years? Wow.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:19 pm

dmiles wrote:Correction the current rumor is the Heat pick will be sent in the deal.

Cleveland will (for now) still have the Memphis pick and it's own pick.


I thought they traded their own 1st round pick next year to C's in order to get rid of Jarrett Jack?
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:55 pm

Doc wrote:Kyrie, Dion, LeBron, Love, Andy

Delly, Allen?, Miller, Marion?, Tristan, Jones, 12th man/backup center

Even if only for a year, I'd consider this a win. Keeping that core if LeBron and Love re up for multiple years? Wow.


Looks like they have an interest in E'Tuan Moore. Which would indicate that they aren't that high on Delly. At least not high enough on him to hand him the backup job.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby mattvan1 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:20 pm

Doc wrote:Kyrie, Dion, LeBron, Love, Andy

Delly, Allen?, Miller, Marion?, Tristan, Jones, 12th man/backup center

Even if only for a year, I'd consider this a win. Keeping that core if LeBron and Love re up for multiple years? Wow.


I could rain on that parade by wondering who, besides LeBron, is a plus defender? I could point out if that starting 5 stays healthy all year it would be a miracle.

But that would really petty of me and a shitty thing to do. So I won't.

Don't get me wrong, easily the best starting 5 ever for the Cavs. Just trying not to count unhatched chickens and all that.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:17 am

Should easily be a 60+ win team.

Just need to manage the minutes and injuries around the playoffs.

Injuries will always be the big wild card no matter who is on the team. Lebron, Love or Kyrie blow out a knee or suffer a season-ending injury we are done. Same thing for Chicago with Rose, OKC with Durant or even if the Spurs lose a key starter. Spurs may have a better chance than the rest due to their balance/team concept but even they wouldn't win the championship if they have a key player out for the playoffs.

Never any assurances but at least this should be the best chance we have had since the '95-'99 Indians.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby bookelly » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:20 am

There are rumblings that another trade is coming for a 5. Either a "youngster" or a "seasoned vet". Reading between the lines we are talking about if we get Dieng or Turiaf in exchange for some sweet expiring contracts plus a pick. Obviously we want Dieng, though Turiaf is serviceable for 15-20 minutes as a rim protector.

They already have Pekovic, so one of these guys is expendable.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:21 am

We must have reached that point where getting anyone to trade us a quality player at a position of need is going to be extremely difficult unless they totally fleece us.

Every team wants some chance to win a title in the next 5-6 years so after looking at our roster they probably aren't too anxious to trade us anyone unless they take us to the cleaners.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:48 am

Marion would be a huge get for this team defensively.

Immediately takes them to a different, top third of the league kind of place when Marion is on the floor.

And no, if you're looking for optimism and joyous proclamations from me, you're probably in the wrong place, but having the very best defender in the league who is also the very best player in the game, is going to make a few guys better defenders from the jump. Because they will now give effort or suffer a huge price. And that immediately makes them better defenders than they were.

If Dion and Kyrie aren't stone cold stupid, they just became twice the players they were on July 10th without having taken the floor yet.



mattvan1 wrote:
Doc wrote:Kyrie, Dion, LeBron, Love, Andy

Delly, Allen?, Miller, Marion?, Tristan, Jones, 12th man/backup center

Even if only for a year, I'd consider this a win. Keeping that core if LeBron and Love re up for multiple years? Wow.


I could rain on that parade by wondering who, besides LeBron, is a plus defender? I could point out if that starting 5 stays healthy all year it would be a miracle.

But that would really petty of me and a shitty thing to do. So I won't.

Don't get me wrong, easily the best starting 5 ever for the Cavs. Just trying not to count unhatched chickens and all that.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby pod2dawg » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:37 am

Hey I'm half-full kinda guy & I'm f%^&cking stoked for the Cavs, BUT Peeks don't fall in love with the "ballad of Sean Marion"...he was a Beast on D back in the day, and I'm sure heez still "good"...but willing to bet he isn't the best "D" man in the league. I haven't seen him much over past couple years. I just know he's old.

None of our "Bigs" scare anyone driving down the lane...we got no hops down low.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby StewieG » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:41 am

Someone on Twitter pointed out that this team was 3rd in the league in defense and won 66 games. Mo Williams, Wally Szczerbiak, Z, the former Ben Wallace, Boobie Gibson, Delonte West...how many of those guys were above average defenders at that time? You've got LeBron, Andy, and...Wallace? Delonte? Who's your 3rd best defender?
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CharacterIV » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:47 am

If there's one thing that the Mike Brown Cavaliers (v 1.0) taught me, it's that basketball defense is all about designing a system and having the players commit to it.

Those teams were always tops in the league defensively, and LeBron was the only one on the team who you'd call a standout defender. Ben Wallace was done. Guys like Delonte and Varejao had or developed reputations as good defenders, but that's predicated mostly on hustle.

Why did Mike Brown continue to get interest in HC positions, despite being woefully inadequate as an offensive tactician, game manager, and handler of star personalities? Because he's really good at building a defensive system (admittedly, the biggest post-Cavs interest in his services was from the Cavs.)

It's all about effort. If you get players to fight through picks, force their man into the help, close out on shooters, and just stay between their man and the damn hoop, you'll be a good defensive team.

For the kids, it's about accountability. Blatt seems like he's big on holding players accountable to the team (he threw Shved and Monia off the team during a timeout) and now LeBron and the network of vets that are coming in all know what it is to be defensively accountable. Guys like Miller, Jones, and hopefully Marion and Allen are all battle-tested to the nth degree, guys with rings.

This may not be a team that thrills with athletic weak-side shot blocks headed into the crowd, but I bet they'll allow a lower shooting percentage than people are thinking they will.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:57 am

pod2dawg wrote:Hey I'm half-full kinda guy & I'm f%^&cking stoked for the Cavs, BUT Peeks don't fall in love with the "ballad of Sean Marion"...he was a Beast on D back in the day, and I'm sure heez still "good"...but willing to bet he isn't the best "D" man in the league. I haven't seen him much over past couple years. I just know he's old.

None of our "Bigs" scare anyone driving down the lane...we got no hops down low.


Wasn't referring to Marion as "best "D" man in the league. Was referring to LBJ. Marion is a very good defender. Still.

But LBJ is the best defender in the league, NBA awards or not. He can literally lock down 1-4 and most 5's on the floor all by himself.

And like Character infers above, Waiters and Kyrie are gonna give effort. They're not going to have a choice.

And people can point out Dion's deficiencies all day long. They are many. But he's physically as capable as anyone on that roster of locking someone down. And mentally he's about to get the switch flipped to 'on'.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby pod2dawg » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:51 am

^^^ Got me. Agreed.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:43 am

I think defense is gonna determnie whether you stick around, or are moved on. Cause when the leader of your team, and the league's best player - who is now in as big a control position as anyone in the history of sports - plays balls out on defense, it'd be wise to follow suit.

Their biggest issue is the fact that 4 of their top 8....if any of these guys missed 3/4 of the season with injury, nobody around the league would be the least bit suprised. An awful lot of chronically injured guys to carry for 100 games ILO.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby CharacterIV » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:44 pm

Injury concerns are the biggest thing. That, and the possibility that Blatt has a rockier adjustment than anticipated.

I'm more concerned about injuries. Think we can make our next LeBron-aided FA acquisition the vaunted Phoenix training staff?

But you know what tends to help prevent injuries? Better conditioning. You know what leads to better conditioning? Working out next to LeBron, especially when he glowers at you if you wuss out on your last set of reps.
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:59 am

Some talk of the NBA possibly vetoing the trade if an extension with Love has already been ironed out in advance
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby StewieG » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:23 pm

Twitter is saying the final deal will likely be pretty close to this:

Love to CLE

Wiggins, Bennett, Thaddeus Young to MIN

Mbah a Moute, Shved, Miami's 1st round pick (via Cavs) to PHI
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Re: More KLove talk

Unread postby redneckofsc » Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:01 pm

Trade is a done deal:

Cleveland gets: Kevin Love from Minnesota

76ers get: Mbah A Moute, Alexey Shved and a future first-round pick (Miami's 2015 first-rounder via Cleveland)

Minnesota gets: Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and Thaddeus Young
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