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Anybody want to talk about trading Andrson now

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Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:45 pm

bostondog wrote: Most pros are looking to get paid. This is especially true in a brutal sport like football with no guaranteed contracts. I absolutely wouldn’t blame him for trying to squeeze....


I wouldn't blame him either, but let's remember that while contracts are not guaranteed, $$$ are. He'll get enough upfront and in the first 2 years to be a rich man the rest of his life.
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Unread postby jb » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:59 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:
bostondog wrote:
I heard that the Browns are working on a multi-year contract with DA.


That's kind of surprising to me. Hard to believe Anderson's agent would pass up the opportunity to test the waters. I guess it's hard to tell exactly how serious any of the parties are about getting the deal done, so no harm in chatting I guess.


SD:

When you make $450,000 NFL minimum and your resume was just refreshed in August because you didn't know how the QB competition was gonna work out an 8 figuire bonus and a big fat deal with the chance to continue as the starter with the same guys you've finally experienced success with would be very flattering as well as desirable if your a realist and understand just how difficult it is t repeat success on another roster with a different bunch of guys .

Having come from the rats who had no passing weapons other than Heap , Anderson is like a kid in Candy land with the likes of Braylon Kellen and Joe moreover they're all blowing up together so the comraderie and espri de corp aspect of that can't be understated .

Unlike Jerry Jones who could have signed Romo for less last year especially after that FG disaster he put him on front street and made him prove it again , Phil is correctly approaching a kid now gratefull for his shot and enjoying his new found success , but still worried in a flash the dream could be over and he wakes up empty handed.

You offer him a bonus twice what Quinn got and treat him like a franchise pick and you'll keep a Brady type QBin the fact he will take less money to have a situation to his liking a team committed to win and committed to him .

If you wait and arrogantly leave him dangling other teams and their agents fill his head with delusions of granduer and you'll end up over paying or eventaully losing him.


Its just smart bidness to pursue this now and get it done if you can.

SoulDawg


It is obvious trhat DA lacks the mental make up to play well in the clutch. He'd make McNabb's pussy SB appearence look like Leonidas in the hot gates when the rest of the team is good enough to get us there.

I am so psyched by the thought of realistically signing DA to a 1st round compensation tender and gettinghelp on D, and then seeing a real big time franchise QB like Quinn play with an offense that has matured I can't stand it.

This is like the 2nd half of 84, BQ in year one will make it like '85, an dthen we're gonna be kicking some serious ass in a window of opportunity. Now, more than ever, I am completely behind trading / getting value for Scott Mitchell II.
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Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:05 pm

3...2...1

Buckle the chin straps folks.
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Unread postby mevanchan » Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:13 pm

Quinn wins that game...
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Unread postby bostondog » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:03 pm

then seeing a real big time franchise QB like Quinn play with an offense that has matured I can't stand it.


I know you're just instigating, but I'll bite. Is it all the bowl games that Quinn won at Notre Dame that makes you say that? There was the 2006 Sugar Bowl loss to LSU 41-14. Or maybe it's the 2005 Fiesta Bowl loss to THE Ohio State University 34-20. Of course, it could be the Insight Bowl (real BCS title game there) loss to Oregon State 38-21. :-) :smile: :)
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Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:56 pm

Is it all the bowl games that Quinn won at Notre Dame that makes you say that? There was the 2006 Sugar Bowl loss to LSU 41-14. Or maybe it's the 2005 Fiesta Bowl loss to THE Ohio State University 34-20. Of course, it could be the Insight Bowl (real BCS title game there) loss to Oregon State 38-21.

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Unread postby FUDU » Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:00 pm

It is obvious trhat DA lacks the mental make up to play well in the clutch.


What clutch situations, let alone big games, are you basing this on?
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Unread postby Crash Davis » Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:19 pm

That's what I'd like to know. I guess everyone forgets against a good defense last week versus Seattle he brought us back for the win...gee wiz I can only conclude one or two things:

1) Someone's obsession for Quinn playing is filling their brain

2 how short some of our memories are. Not to mention that against Oakland another good defense he brought us down to very makeable field goal range for the win and if not for Crennel's brain fart on the challenge that would have given DA another 4th qtr comeback against another good defense.
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Unread postby furls » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:35 pm

For all intents and purposes, DA is a rookie and he looks pretty damn good. This morning on Mike and Mike they had him rated as the 6th best QB under 27 (only ding was not enough play time).

Personally, I think the Browns should stick with him until Quinn wins the job or until it becomes clear that he is not the guy. Right now, I am stuck somewhere between he could be the guy and he might be the guy. All I can say for sure is that it is nice to see competent quarterback play, and for the first time in about 5 years to not have the 35th (I think at least 5 or 6 teams had better backups than Frye and co.) best QB play in the league on our team.
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Unread postby Crash Davis » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 pm

My biggest fear Furls is that Crennel hands Quinn the job like he did with Frye instead of making him earn it. Granite Dilfer wasn't playing like DA but he was a veteran and probably gave us a little better chance to win based on his experience then with Frye. Quinn hasn't proved jack shit yet and DA to this point has proven he can win with Chud's offense and the weapons he has.

That being said I am for whoever deserves the job whether that be DA keeping it or Quinn taking it from him. At this point there's more to say DA is the guy than isn't. People want to doubt him but to that I want to see evidence. One half of bad play versus several good halves does not give me enough evidence to prove he isn't the guy. If that were the case the Colts might want to think about replacing Peyton Manning after last Sunday night's game.
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Unread postby yogi » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:51 pm

My biggest fear Furls is that Crennel hands Quinn the job like he did with Frye instead of making him earn it.


Careful...

DA didn't earn the job either, he was given it after Fyre crashed and burned for the last time.

Side question: What did Carson Palmer exactly earn?
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Unread postby Crash Davis » Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:06 pm

DA earned the job. Look no further than late last year, he earned the job late then but for some odd reason Crennel wanted a QB controversy. Maybe he just likes flipping coins but DA proved late last season that he was better suited to be the starter than Frye
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Unread postby Spin » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:08 pm

DA wasn't that sharp last year. He overthrew everybody. Dorsey made him look good throwing that quick out into the upper deck in the last home game.

Frye looked better than Anderson and Dorsey in training camp and in the preseason. We saw Quinn take 0 snaps against NFL defenses. So coming out Frye was the right choice for starter.

I think Crennel wanted DA to take the job all along, but he wouldn't. Until game one vs. Pittsburgh. I hate siding with Romeo, but I back him on all that. DA looked like crap in the preseason and everybody said so. If he does that next year, he may be riding the pine again.
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Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:33 pm

I gotta ask,

Whose signature is right... oberle or spin?
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Unread postby jfiling » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:48 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I gotta ask,

Whose signature is right... oberle or spin?


*preparing for hate*

The last Cleveland pro championship was in 1999.
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Unread postby jfiling » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:50 pm

Oh, and the last Cleveland semi-pro championship team was in 2004. I'll give a shiny new nickel to the person who first names them.
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Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:56 pm

JB wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
bostondog wrote:
I heard that the Browns are working on a multi-year contract with DA.


That's kind of surprising to me. Hard to believe Anderson's agent would pass up the opportunity to test the waters. I guess it's hard to tell exactly how serious any of the parties are about getting the deal done, so no harm in chatting I guess.


SD:

When you make $450,000 NFL minimum and your resume was just refreshed in August because you didn't know how the QB competition was gonna work out an 8 figuire bonus and a big fat deal with the chance to continue as the starter with the same guys you've finally experienced success with would be very flattering as well as desirable if your a realist and understand just how difficult it is t repeat success on another roster with a different bunch of guys .

Having come from the rats who had no passing weapons other than Heap , Anderson is like a kid in Candy land with the likes of Braylon Kellen and Joe moreover they're all blowing up together so the comraderie and espri de corp aspect of that can't be understated .

Unlike Jerry Jones who could have signed Romo for less last year especially after that FG disaster he put him on front street and made him prove it again , Phil is correctly approaching a kid now gratefull for his shot and enjoying his new found success , but still worried in a flash the dream could be over and he wakes up empty handed.

You offer him a bonus twice what Quinn got and treat him like a franchise pick and you'll keep a Brady type QBin the fact he will take less money to have a situation to his liking a team committed to win and committed to him .

If you wait and arrogantly leave him dangling other teams and their agents fill his head with delusions of granduer and you'll end up over paying or eventaully losing him.


Its just smart bidness to pursue this now and get it done if you can.

SoulDawg


It is obvious trhat DA lacks the mental make up to play well in the clutch. He'd make McNabb's pussy SB appearence look like Leonidas in the hot gates when the rest of the team is good enough to get us there.

I am so psyched by the thought of realistically signing DA to a 1st round compensation tender and gettinghelp on D, and then seeing a real big time franchise QB like Quinn play with an offense that has matured I can't stand it.

This is like the 2nd half of 84, BQ in year one will make it like '85, an dthen we're gonna be kicking some serious ass in a window of opportunity. Now, more than ever, I am completely behind trading / getting value for Scott Mitchell II.



SD:

The rest of the league by comparison against that inbred defense
courtesy of GF64 .

Anderson: 16/35 for 123 yards.
McNair: 13/22 for 63.
Boller: 3/9 for 21.
Palmer: 23/31 for 205.
Cutler: 22/29 for 248.
Hasslebeck: 13/27 for 116.
Warner: 14/21 for 132.
Leinart: 7/14 for 93.
A Smith: 17/39 for 209.
Losman: 15/25 for 154.

JB What we really need is Tim Couch after he serves his steroid suspension , that or you quit postin drunk.


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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:02 am

SoulDawg74 wrote:JB What we really need is Tim Couch after he serves his steroid suspension , that or you quit postin drunk.

Dude, that totally eliminates Jim from the board.
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Unread postby Guest » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:09 am

SoulDawg74 wrote:
The rest of the league by comparison against that inbred defense
courtesy of GF64 .

Anderson: 16/35 for 123 yards.
McNair: 13/22 for 63.
Boller: 3/9 for 21.
Palmer: 23/31 for 205.
Cutler: 22/29 for 248.
Hasslebeck: 13/27 for 116.
Warner: 14/21 for 132.
Leinart: 7/14 for 93.
A Smith: 17/39 for 209.
Losman: 15/25 for 154.


Not sure what that's supposed to prove.

DA had worse passing stats than Palmer, Cutler, the Cards' Pair (21 of 35 combined for 225), and JP friggin Loserman.

But he was better than the Ratbird QBs and Alex "the only QB in the league with a lower completion % than DA" Smith.

Now he did have those three TD passes off from one drive, a Cribbs' masterpiece, an INT, and Braylon going Cirque du Soleil on another DA misfire in the end zone.
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Unread postby yogi » Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:37 am

DA earned the job. Look no further than late last year, he earned the job late then but for some odd reason Crennel wanted a QB controversy. Maybe he just likes flipping coins but DA proved late last season that he was better suited to be the starter than Frye


That's not quite the way I remember it.

After Frye was injured (in his only real efefctive game aginst KC, I might add), DA came in and unexpectedly played great and after falling behind by 14 points lead the Browns to victory. Up until this point, no one even thought of DA as possible starting material. He played the next 3 or 4 games, playing good, ok and crappy. He then got hurt and Frye finished.

DA earned an OPPORTUNITY to compete for the starting job. And still didn't win it.
BTW, Savage thought so much of DA's performance last year that he traded to bring Quinn in here so that's a couple of instances that go against your theory.

Enough with the RAC flipping coins controversey already. Frye & DA both blew in TC and he made a little joke out of flipping a coin. Should've made both guys angry.
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Unread postby General » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:15 am

I don't know anything about training camp except that it is in Berea but can't a case be made that QB is a rhythm position? By platooning the two "vets" and then the "Lady" in reps you have effectively set them all up to fail early on...until the "winner" develops his rhythm. I never was a Frye guy, DA is intriguing, I can see some awesome things with him and some opportunities for great improvement, Quinn is untested and I will not draw comparisons from BCS games to NFL games...I am just not that sober while watching either. Bottom line we have two rookie QB's and Chud's high powered offense. Anyone in here hand the keys to a Porsche to a sixteen year old? Alot of rambling but I think we need to buy another year of this unless the offer is ridiculous good for us.
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Unread postby Hi Oktane » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:39 am

General wrote:I don't know anything about training camp except that it is in Berea but can't a case be made that QB is a rhythm position? By platooning the two "vets" and then the "Lady" in reps you have effectively set them all up to fail early on...until the "winner" develops his rhythm.


Good point, General, and I think there's merit there. Moreover, DA habitually struggles, particularly with his timing, early in games. Generally, after a drive or two, he finds the groove and often maintains it for much of the game (though the opposite did occur last week).
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Unread postby Crash Davis » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:50 am

Yogi wrote: After Frye was injured (in his only real efefctive game aginst KC, I might add), DA came in and unexpectedly played great and after falling behind by 14 points lead the Browns to victory. Up until this point, no one even thought of DA as possible starting material. He played the next 3 or 4 games, playing good, ok and crappy. He then got hurt and Frye finished.

Bottom line is DA did in 3 out of the 4 games last year what Frye had never done since being handed the job in '05 with the same group of players. If nothing else he showed that the Charlie Frye experiment should have been over at that point and never mentioned again. DA earned then over Frye because there was no one else in the running.

Also flipping the coin has to be mentioned b/c its why neither succeeded in the new offense in preseason and shows Crennel's lack of leadership in picking a starter outright in OTA's so that guy could get most of the snaps and pick up the new system inorder to be ready for the opener.

DA's abilitly to perform well with the same group of guys last year that Frye had should have been enough for RAC to make a decision for once. Good thing Savage stepped in once again (see Maurice Carthon) to make the decision for him and sent Frye's ass packing.
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Unread postby jb » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:55 am

SoulDawg74 wrote:
JB wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
bostondog wrote:
I heard that the Browns are working on a multi-year contract with DA.


That's kind of surprising to me. Hard to believe Anderson's agent would pass up the opportunity to test the waters. I guess it's hard to tell exactly how serious any of the parties are about getting the deal done, so no harm in chatting I guess.


SD:

When you make $450,000 NFL minimum and your resume was just refreshed in August because you didn't know how the QB competition was gonna work out an 8 figuire bonus and a big fat deal with the chance to continue as the starter with the same guys you've finally experienced success with would be very flattering as well as desirable if your a realist and understand just how difficult it is t repeat success on another roster with a different bunch of guys .

Having come from the rats who had no passing weapons other than Heap , Anderson is like a kid in Candy land with the likes of Braylon Kellen and Joe moreover they're all blowing up together so the comraderie and espri de corp aspect of that can't be understated .

Unlike Jerry Jones who could have signed Romo for less last year especially after that FG disaster he put him on front street and made him prove it again , Phil is correctly approaching a kid now gratefull for his shot and enjoying his new found success , but still worried in a flash the dream could be over and he wakes up empty handed.

You offer him a bonus twice what Quinn got and treat him like a franchise pick and you'll keep a Brady type QBin the fact he will take less money to have a situation to his liking a team committed to win and committed to him .

If you wait and arrogantly leave him dangling other teams and their agents fill his head with delusions of granduer and you'll end up over paying or eventaully losing him.


Its just smart bidness to pursue this now and get it done if you can.

SoulDawg


It is obvious trhat DA lacks the mental make up to play well in the clutch. He'd make McNabb's pussy SB appearence look like Leonidas in the hot gates when the rest of the team is good enough to get us there.

I am so psyched by the thought of realistically signing DA to a 1st round compensation tender and gettinghelp on D, and then seeing a real big time franchise QB like Quinn play with an offense that has matured I can't stand it.

This is like the 2nd half of 84, BQ in year one will make it like '85, an dthen we're gonna be kicking some serious ass in a window of opportunity. Now, more than ever, I am completely behind trading / getting value for Scott Mitchell II.



SD:

The rest of the league by comparison against that inbred defense
courtesy of GF64 .

Anderson: 16/35 for 123 yards.
McNair: 13/22 for 63.
Boller: 3/9 for 21.
Palmer: 23/31 for 205.
Cutler: 22/29 for 248.
Hasslebeck: 13/27 for 116.
Warner: 14/21 for 132.
Leinart: 7/14 for 93.
A Smith: 17/39 for 209.
Losman: 15/25 for 154.

JB What we really need is Tim Couch after he serves his steroid suspension , that or you quit postin drunk.


SoulDawg


Hey, I'm impressed by the prep work, butt I'd also like to see rating & TD / INT stats for both DA's games.

There is no question in my mind that DA got the yips in the 2nd half, and he couldn't overcome the adjustments and make the reads. I believ ethis was due less to inexperience as it was the presure got to him. Dudes were open and he had time, he just couldn't deliver accurately all of a sudden. DA and the O's inability to do ANYTHING in the 2nd half was the real reasonwe lost. It was unrealistoic to expect the D to rise up against a top offense in the NFL, and we can blame stupid penalties or the fact that Dawson has very limited range, but that misses the story.

I am absolutly sick about the game, still. There were about 3 or 4 times I said to the person next to me on the barstool "this is the most important posession of the season" and the O went belly up. DA was off. He was missing receivers. And it wasn't even like they did anything to get i his head. He just went melty.

Now that is what it is.

I don't write him off but I am using this to make the point that SD is going on and on and on as he's wont to do, esp when it comes to QB's, on a sample size that is non-existant for BQ and very limited still for DA. This is how we get Kelly Unitas and Derreck Manning and such. On one hand, it is entertaining and SD always stirs discussion, and most of the time I'll grant a ekrnal of truth to the rants. OTOH, so much is nonsense as far as what we do long term at tyhis juncture. Utter nonsense. YOu keep both these guys unless someone will part with an offer that is too good to pass up, and you RECOGNIZE that we are going NOWHERE big-picture-wise with the defense and we don't have a #1 pick this year.

The team has to get better and these guys are resources. Maybe it is BQ and maybe it is DA, but I like what I see overall from DA, although I question his mental toughness in all seriousness. I can get into a thread as to why if you want, and mostly it has to do with why he couldn't just blow Frye away in this "competition" (if by competition we mean who sucked laest) .

BQ is simply an unknown at this point, althought everything we've seen from him has been positive in X season - and at ND.

If you want to talk about his bowl record and yer serious and not ball breaking, i gotta play the "you sure you understand football?" card for real. That group was completely overmatched while the Browns are positively gifted with an embarassment of riches talent-wise around DA. IOW, imagine BQ on the 2002 University of Miami squad instead o surrounded by a pitching prospect and a bunch of slow, weak, stiffs who are fodder for service academies without him.
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Unread postby yogi » Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:17 am

Bottom line is DA did in 3 out of the 4 games last year what Frye had never done since being handed the job in '05 with the same group of players. If nothing else he showed that the Charlie Frye experiment should have been over at that point and never mentioned again. DA earned then over Frye because there was no one else in the running


I'll repeat the same thought. I only remember DA being impressive in the KC game and that was the same game that Frye led the team to 2 TDs on impressive drives. It looked like Chas was getting it (at least a little bit) then he went down.
Why would it be DA's job going into the next year without a competition?

Also flipping the coin has to be mentioned b/c its why neither succeeded in the new offense in preseason and shows Crennel's lack of leadership in picking a starter outright in OTA's so that guy could get most of the snaps and pick up the new system inorder to be ready for the opener.


QB competitions happen all the friggin time. DA didn't get enough reps to prove he didn't stink? Too Bad! I was cut by my HS Baseball team because all I got was 3 lousy at bats (against Jose Deleon I might add) to show something!

You have an opportunity, you have to make something out of it. DA and Frye did not. Shoot, Quinn had no problems with less reps.

Flipping a coin was RAC's way of being cute with the media. He could have just as likely said, neither QB is impressing us so I'll start one this week and the other the next...

What's the big friggin deal? It's just fodder for people that don't like RAC as HC, to use and try and portray him as a buffoon.
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Unread postby Crash Davis » Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:54 am

yogi wrote: I'll repeat the same thought. I only remember DA being impressive in the KC game and that was the same game that Frye led the team to 2 TDs on impressive drives. It looked like Chas was getting it (at least a little bit) then he went down.
Why would it be DA's job going into the next year without a competition?


Sorry you missed the Balt where DA threw 2TD's and had 71 pct comp pct against one of the best defenses in the NFL last year and you must have missed the Pittsburgh game too where DA had 11 drop passes and still had good numbers against another stellar defense.

I don't deny DA needed some competition but from Charlie "freakin" Frye you have to be kidding. Let me say it again since there was no one else to compete with him DA should have been named the starter to get all the reps and be ready for the opener. I guess you didn't get enough of Frye's fumbles and poor decisions last year and wanted more. The guy simply could not move an NFL offense.

yogi wrote: QB competitions happen all the friggin time. DA didn't get enough reps to prove he didn't stink? Too Bad! I was cut by my HS Baseball team because all I got was 3 lousy at bats (against Jose Deleon I might add) to show something!

You have an opportunity, you have to make something out of it. DA and Frye did not. Shoot, Quinn had no problems with less reps.

Flipping a coin was RAC's way of being cute with the media. He could have just as likely said, neither QB is impressing us so I'll start one this week and the other the next...

What's the big friggin deal? It's just fodder for people that don't like RAC as HC, to use and try and portray him as a buffoon.


With this I can only assume you didn't ready my entire post. The decision should have been made in the offseason or in the OTA's at the latest as clueless is RAC is a coin flip only made him look worse.
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Unread postby Hi Oktane » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:12 pm

JB wrote:There is no question in my mind that DA got the yips in the 2nd half, and he couldn't overcome the adjustments and make the reads. I believ ethis was due less to inexperience as it was the presure got to him.


Interesting that DA's intestinal fortitude has now come into question after losing it in the 2nd half of the Squeeler game while he was lauded for his huddle presence in the closing minutes of the Seattle game. Just a bad day? The real DA uncovered? Who knows for sure? That's why we all just have to step back and let this season play out. Sample size is still just too damn small.
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Unread postby Crash Davis » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:28 pm

Agreed on waiting and see if he's the future or to give Quinn a shot but after the season. After last year with Frye I didn't need to see anymore of deer caught in the headlights look and piss poor decisions and since Savage said on the radio after Frye was traded there are two tracks going folks hence the brass finally gets it here.

One track is DA and the other is Quinn. If and when they go to Quinn they won't be turning back so I would take that to mean DA either bottoms out or Quinn over takes him, either way Quinn would earn a shot just like DA did when Frye bottomed out in the 13 games he started last year and the 5 before. Frye got 18 starts and that was enough for me, DA has had 11 so far so 7 more would be equivalent to what Frye had at the end of last year. There was no need to even keep Frye on any track going into this season, we already knew what he was and that unfortuneatly was NOT a starting caliber material in the NFL
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Unread postby jb » Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:36 pm

Hi Oktane wrote:
JB wrote:There is no question in my mind that DA got the yips in the 2nd half, and he couldn't overcome the adjustments and make the reads. I believ ethis was due less to inexperience as it was the presure got to him.


Interesting that DA's intestinal fortitude has now come into question after losing it in the 2nd half of the Squeeler game while he was lauded for his huddle presence in the closing minutes of the Seattle game. Just a bad day? The real DA uncovered? Who knows for sure? That's why we all just have to step back and let this season play out. Sample size is still just too damn small.


These are all data points to me. I watch them. I have data points from his coaches comments when he was at OSU and he got rattled by the crown in a bad game. I have data points where he "really came into his own" after Frye was no longer there to compete with, andnowhow he performed in a game w/ first place on the line.

We also have plenty of positives to be certain as you allude. I agree. It also means that I annoint DA as absolutely nothing yet but this poossible long trem answer or a great bargaining chip. And I call BS on SD's rush to appoint him as The Man.

I am not there with a fianl judgement, but I know what was what on Sunday an it was not good.
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Unread postby mevanchan » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:17 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Is it all the bowl games that Quinn won at Notre Dame that makes you say that? There was the 2006 Sugar Bowl loss to LSU 41-14. Or maybe it's the 2005 Fiesta Bowl loss to THE Ohio State University 34-20. Of course, it could be the Insight Bowl (real BCS title game there) loss to Oregon State 38-21.

1-9


I know this is going back a few points, but coincidentally, the Notre Dame vs. Oregon State Insight Bowl was Quinn v DA

Correct. Notre Dame, they of the 0 - 2 vs the service academies w/ out quinn, played tOSU with DA. And Chad Johnson.
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Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:38 pm

JB wrote:
Hi Oktane wrote:
JB wrote:There is no question in my mind that DA got the yips in the 2nd half, and he couldn't overcome the adjustments and make the reads. I believ ethis was due less to inexperience as it was the presure got to him.


Interesting that DA's intestinal fortitude has now come into question after losing it in the 2nd half of the Squeeler game while he was lauded for his huddle presence in the closing minutes of the Seattle game. Just a bad day? The real DA uncovered? Who knows for sure? That's why we all just have to step back and let this season play out. Sample size is still just too damn small.


These are all data points to me. I watch them. I have data points from his coaches comments when he was at OSU and he got rattled by the crown in a bad game. I have data points where he "really came into his own" after Frye was no longer there to compete with, andnowhow he performed in a game w/ first place on the line.

We also have plenty of positives to be certain as you allude. I agree. It also means that I annoint DA as absolutely nothing yet but this poossible long trem answer or a great bargaining chip. And I call BS on SD's rush to appoint him as The Man.

I am not there with a fianl judgement, but I know what was what on Sunday an it was not good.


SD:

I call BS on your BS , not because you don't have an opinion or you're just spouting off in your normal venomous perverse spew as you unwind from yet another bitter disappointing loss like the rest of us Browns fans ,
but mostly because you come off as just another Fool on a barstool with tunnel vision while you drink yourself into an unintelligible stupor while peering outta out of the panty leg hole created by Lady Quinns DRAWLS draped over your head.

Try and keep some perspective , and quit twisting my take into mischaracterization so you can advance your position like
you might even know something about the subject .

Rewatched the NFL replay twice and looked for the turning point to our fortunes in the second half , the entire offense failed to make a play not just Anderson , but the turning point began with Jamels fumble and went down hill from there.

Doesn't exclude Andersons third and fourth series in the second half where he appeared skittish frustrated and unsure of himself for the first time since he's got on the run , but lets not go crazy and automatically assume you can get get Quinns panties outta the blanket warmer yet.

I used those specs to show with the exception of Cutler that defense has made every QB they faced look less than perfect , in fact they've been keeping passing totals under the amount of good running back performances which is unheard of .

Its my opinion , that RAC or CHUD or both cautioned Anderson into being so carefull with the ball after Jamels mistake they took him completely out of his rythm in the same way you can't drive a golf ball make a putt or slug a baseball if you try and steer them , you have to relax and make contact and trust your swing and groove your motion .

When your throwing not to make a mistake instead of focussing on making the completion your thinking too much , your asshole puckers up and you can't do shit.

To say Derek can't make those throws belies the fact he did so earlier in the game with a magnificent 9 minute drive that rocked the vaunted inbred defense on their heels as we drove it the link of the field and punched it in.

There are many key turning points , a fumble in the second half when we sacked toothlessburger recovered by the inbred in their territory would have broken their backs , a blatant holding call where the ref swallowed his whistle on third and ten resulting in a 35 yard scamper for a TD would never have counted .

The completely bogus holding call on Dinkins in which the Browns officially filed a complaint meant a 29 yard loss of Field position and taking the ball from the inbred 38 in point blank range of our receivers back to our 33.

Even the spot of Joe Viscius catch was marked two yards shy of
his actual forward progress.

One author in the local PD fish wrap attributes this scenario as the problem agreeing with a point i made two days ago about calls effecting outcomes .

"""* Arguably the game's biggest play occurred when the Steelers had a third-and-10 from the Cleveland 30 with 11:40 remaining. Roethlisberger stepped up in the pocket after moderate pressure from Kamerion Wimbley. He cocked to throw at the 35 but pulled the ball in and began to run. Peek, in prime position to record a sack, could not get to him only because Colon appeared to be blatantly grabbing his left shoulder pad. Peek flapped his arms wanting a holding call, to no avail. Roethlisberger dashed down the field between the hash marks with no Browns near him until veering to the left to avoid a diving Pool at the 16. Ward had a block at the 4 to secure Roethlisberger's entry into the end zone. Holly had a tackle attempt at the 1."""

Agree with you it should never have come to that , if we could have just made or bought a fucking first down of any kind in the third , but you can't dismiss the fact we got got jobbed yet again like it don't matter either.

To date Anderson has 20 TD passes including three in the first half
all short touch passes to match his deep ball abilities , it leaves him two short of Bernie Kosars 22 in a season which is the last time any Cleveland QB had so many and he still has damn near half a season of play to go .

My POV on this QB issue has been to sign and retain both of these guys until we sort this thing out , and use other means to address the DL , not dump our strength prematurely trade the wrong guy and or move a possible franchise talent for some fucking nintendo picks .

Fuck the bullshit we don't have a first round pick ,
keep in mind the reality is we used it on Quinn a little early before April of 2008.

Quinn won't get any less valuable sitting behind a QB playing at an All Pro level , and Andersons stock is a lock we can cash in at any time especially if we lock him up long term .

When Cleveland becomes to small for one of them down the road ,
you'll net more than one stinkin #1 pick , see Jimmie Johnson netting 2 for Steve Walsh after he drafted Aikman and you won't have weakened yourself in the process or prematurely spending yourself on the honey moon sheets releasing your load at the first hint of flesh.

We have a 2009 #1 as cannon fodder to move up , so we don't have to
get all premature and weaken the first strength the Browns have had at any position since we had Jim Brown and Leroy Kelley in the same backfield.

Worst thing we could do is dump the wrong guy or lose our
injury proof insurance policy at the most important position in football while we're still retooling and rebuilding the balance of the squad .

We need a RB a solid DE and some linebackers who can make plays ala the talent displayed by the inbred we have 7 picks IIRC despite missing our number one next spring Free agency with plenty of cash and a bunch of picks in 2009 if somebody out there is so outstanding we can't hold our water and feel the need to go Butch Davis .

This aint about Kelley Unitas or any other ignorant strawman shit you
want to use to defelct the real subject, because you never tried to understand my position to dump Tim Couches underperforming overpaid ass was never personal , this is about bidness and doing the correct move for the long haul .

Unlike yourself and Timmies followers who became imprinted like babee ducks to the first thing that moved and forever failed to listen to reason thereafter .

I have no sacred cows which includes Derek Anderson.


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Unread postby yogi » Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:51 pm

Thought I'd include it since its been referenced.

One note. This was before Weiss came to town.



Record Night For Anderson At Insight


Derek Anderson tosses Insight Bowl record four touchdown passes to lead Beavers past Notre Dame, 38-21.

Jan. 3, 2005

By BOB BAUM
AP Sports Writer


PHOENIX (AP) - Notre Dame's "win one for Ty" vow was only a fantasy. Derek Anderson's arm and the leaky Irish secondary made sure of that.

Anderson and Oregon State finished off Notre Dame's dreary season with a 38-21 beating of the Irish on Tuesday night in the Insight Bowl.

Anderson, in his final game for the Beavers, tied an Insight record with four touchdown passes, two to tight end Joe Newton.

The 6-foot, 6-inch quarterback completed 28 of 45 passes for 358 yards with no interceptions against Notre Dame's leaky secondary.

Anderson, the game's offensive MVP, moved ahead of Steve Stenstrom to No. 2 on the Pac-10 career yards passing list with 11,249. Only Carson Palmer (11,818) had more.

"Derek is a very, very good quarterback," Oregon State coach Mike Riley said. "Since we've known him, he has constantly gotten better. It's been really fun working with him, because he's like a sponge. He just loves to learn and get better. I wish we had another year."

The Irish (6-6) had talked about winning the game for coach Tyrone Willingham, fired at the end of the regular season. But Sammie Stroughter's 52-yard punt return and Derrick Doggett's blocked punt helped Oregon State to an early 21-0 lead.



"The short field position the first half just killed us," Notre Dame interim coach Kent Baer said. "The blocked punt, and the punt return, you take that away, and it's a much closer game - but that's all part of it."

Brady Quinn threw two touchdown passes as Notre Dame twice cut the lead to 10 points, the last on an 18-yard throw to Rhema McKnight that made it 31-21 with 4:52 left.

The Irish onside kick try backfired and left Oregon State at the Notre Dame 28. Dwight Wright's 3-yard TD run with 3:19 left sealed the victory.

After a 1-4 start, Oregon State (7-5) won six of its last seven games.

The Irish, meanwhile, lost their seventh consecutive bowl game. Notre Dame's last postseason victory was in the Cotton Bowl at the end of the 1993 season.

Oregon State improved to 2-0 against Notre Dame. Five seasons ago, the Beavers pounded the Irish 41-9 just down the road at the Fiesta Bowl.

The Irish pass defense crumbled in three consecutive season-ending losses, allowing 14 TD passes against Pittsburgh, Southern California and Oregon State.

The Beavers had TD drives of only 26, 4 and 45 yards take their early lead, then went 90 yards in 12 plays midway through the second half after Notre Dame had cut the lead to 24-14. Anderson's 1-yard TD toss to Newton capped the long drive and it was 31-14 with 12:17 to play.

"That was a big drive," Anderson said. "We were talking on the sidelines and said, `Let's go answer it."'

With Willingham ousted, and hired as head coach at Washington, the Irish played under Baer, Notre Dame's defensive coordinator. New Notre Dame coach Charlie Weis, offensive coordinator for the New England Patriots, takes over the Irish program when his NFL season ends.

"I'd be lying if I told you it didn't affect some people," Quinn said. "You try your best, at least as much as you can, and try not to look too far ahead or too far back.

"I think this team dealt with this situation that we were given as good as any team could."

Anderson's passes of 12 yards to George Gillett, 11 to Newton and 11 to Dan Haines had Oregon State up 21-0 with 7:49 left in the first half. But the Irish managed a 13-play, 84-yard drive, aided by a pass interference penalty against Brandon Browner.

On third-and-7, Quinn threw 13 yards to Anthony Fasano for the score to cut the lead to 21-7 with 56 seconds left in the half.

Alex Serna, who missed two field goals in the first half, kicked a 38-yarder to give Oregon State a 24-7 third-quarter lead. But the next time the Beavers had the ball, Jerome Collins deflected Saam Paulescu's punt, and the Irish quickly went 49 yards in six plays. Darius Walker ran 5 yards to cut the lead to 24-14 with 2:40 left in the third.

The capacity crowd of 45,917 was the largest since the Insight Bowl moved to Bank One Ballpark six years ago. The roof was open at kickoff, but was closed in the first quarter as a light rain fell.
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Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:39 pm

yogi wrote:
My biggest fear Furls is that Crennel hands Quinn the job like he did with Frye instead of making him earn it.


Careful...

DA didn't earn the job either, he was given it after Fyre crashed and burned for the last time.

Side question: What did Carson Palmer exactly earn?


SD:

The answer is ..........nothing .

However the Bungles drafted him number one and payed him the adjusted gross National product of Haiti so when Kitna did his best and they still didn't make the playoffs , they unceremoniousdly dumped him and made way for the new Palmer era ready or not.

Difference between John and Derek however is immense .

One was a washed out has been journeyman who had blown a previous stint with Holmgren doing what was thought to be his last hurrah in Cincy , while Anderson is the biggest surprise 6th round prospect since Tom Brady .

Nobody expected he'd play like this or we'd of never spent a 2008
#1 pick and moved up for Quinn.


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Unread postby FUDU » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:03 pm

I have data points where he "really came into his own" after Frye was no longer there to compete with, andnowhow he performed in a game w/ first place on the line.

Yeah b/c having Quinn behind you ready to take over (whether DA is deserving to lose the job or not) is no pressure at all, at least not compared to the pressure of having to "compete" with CF.

Gimme a break.

DA's is in a no win situation in regards to perception. If DA does well the question is "well how do we know the guy in waiting, Quinn, couldn't do that or isn't better?" If DA does bad the questions become "why isn't Quinn in there to see what he can do, he must be able to do as well as struggling D?"

DA knows this people he lives and breathes just like us.

Why didn't anybody answer my question, what clutch situations or games are we looking at to make assumptions that he doesn't have "it" in the clutch? (Hint: It would be wise to not refer to the Seattle game for the argument against DA).

IMO when the Browns decision makers feel the probability that we miss the WC is at 65-70% or above then it is time to get a little taste of Brady. At that point they can at least put some spin on it as getting the kid some time and getting DA some rest and keeping him away from a serious injury that could possibly mess up next year for us.
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Unread postby jb » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:11 am

Why didn't anybody answer my question, what clutch situations or games are we looking at to make assumptions that he doesn't have "it" in the clutch? (Hint: It would be wise to not refer to the Seattle game for the argument against DA).


S - U - N - D- A - Y

I can type slower if you wish.

That and the whole X season when he was in a "competition".
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Unread postby jb » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:26 am

SD:

I call BS on your BS , not because you don't have an opinion or you're just spouting off in your normal venomous perverse spew as you unwind from yet another bitter disappointing loss like the rest of us Browns fans ,
but mostly because you come off as just another Fool on a barstool with tunnel vision while you drink yourself into an unintelligible stupor while peering outta out of the panty leg hole created by Lady Quinns DRAWLS draped over your head.


U R certifable w/ uer FB takes, but that is quality smak right thar. Nice.

And you can't call BS casue I called it first.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:39 am

JB wrote:And you can't call BS casue I called it first.

Can he call meta-BS?

I should say that Derek Anderson is one of the quarterbacks I've ever seen, in this or any other uniform.
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Unread postby Hi Oktane » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:54 am

Steve Buffum wrote:
JB wrote:And you can't call BS casue I called it first.

Can he call meta-BS?

I should say that Derek Anderson is one of the quarterbacks I've ever seen, in this or any other uniform.


Agree 100%, Buff. DA is definitely one of the quarterbacks I've seen in uniform. :lol:
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Unread postby Spin » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:11 pm

I gotta ask,

Whose signature is right... oberle or spin?


Let me go back and add it up and see if I'm wrong.

The last championship was the 1964 Browns.

So there have been:
43 AL seasons
42 NFL seasons
37 NBA seasons
2 NHL seasons

That comes to 124. oops, I'll fix that. The point is WE HAVE SUCKED FOR A LONG LONG TIME.

Now, if you want to figure in "professional" minor league sports like indoor soccer and whatever else, if $1000.00 a month (only during the season) makes you a pro, then that's different.

Hell at that rate, we have multiple professional championships in Akron and Canton. You guys don't want to go there.
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Unread postby Steve Buffum » Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:25 pm

Spin wrote:Now, if you want to figure in "professional" minor league sports like indoor soccer and whatever else, if $1000.00 a month (only during the season) makes you a pro, then that's different.

Hell at that rate, we have multiple professional championships in Akron and Canton. You guys don't want to go there.

Agreed, although I once lobbied Oberle to consider the WHA. (Yes, that's sad.)
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Unread postby Spin » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:12 pm

Hmmmmmm, that makes sense. They were paying NHL wages + and drawing players away from the NHL. That just adds to the number and makes it even more depressing. LOL.

128 it is.
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Unread postby Tree » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:43 pm

bostondog wrote:
then seeing a real big time franchise QB like Quinn play with an offense that has matured I can't stand it.


I know you're just instigating, but I'll bite. Is it all the bowl games that Quinn won at Notre Dame that makes you say that? There was the 2006 Sugar Bowl loss to LSU 41-14. Or maybe it's the 2005 Fiesta Bowl loss to THE Ohio State University 34-20. Of course, it could be the Insight Bowl (real BCS title game there) loss to Oregon State 38-21. :-) :smile: :)


No offense, but you are talking about teams that had both good defenses, good offenses and solid special teams. Notre Dame was a one dimensioanl team that rode Brady Quinn's arm to victory season after season. You see how weak that team is now without him. It's going to take this year and next to get someone that can even play near that level.

I don't want to make any judgements about which QB is better.

I will say this though. We have probably the best pass protecting line in the NFL.

I'd venture to say then, that any number of our former starting QBs would get a boost in their stats just because of that. I think we could just about throw any QB back there at this point of the season who is reasonably competent and get good results.

I married into an Irish Catholic family who are big ND fans. I've seen a lot of Brady Quinn. Brady Quinn imo did not have a lot of talent around him, and ND never had a defense nor a great running game, nor all that good of an O line. BQ carried ND year in and year out. When ND would meet superior competition, that team's flaws were exposed, but the one thing that didn't change imo was BQ still making plays and still being a threat, regardless of the score, regardless if the game was out of hand.

He may not have gotten the protection or running game he needed to come up big in big games, but he never failed to be a threat in those games. ND was a 1 dimensional team. Teams specifically game planned against him. If you got to BQ, there was nothing else. No defense, no rushing attack, to fall back on. ND was all BQ and nothing more.

For once, the Browns have a wealth of assets at QB. And we are damn lucky that we do. We are taking our time with by BQ "redshirting" him. When BQ takes the field, think of Brian Sipe mixed with a little of Tom Brady. Give BQ protection like DA gets, and I think BQ will shred a defense, not just for 1 half, but for an entire game. Give him what he didn't have at Notre Dame, and I can's see anyone stopping him. He can make all the throws. Add a rushing attack and some defense, and we'll see the post season repeatedly.

BQ's MO follows thusly:
Accurate.....mobile....can throw the long ball accurately as well as the short routes. Rarely makes mistakes or misreads defenses.

Here's two scouting reports. You've all read them before, but it may do you well to be reminded of his scouting reports. If this OL can elevate DA's play and status to it's current level, imagine what it could do for BQ....

The finished product can only be so good as the raw materials you start from. IMO, DA is good, but is somewhat inferior to BQ when it comes to raw talent. If you put both through the same process of development, I'd lay a bet that BQ would come out ahead of DA as a finished product. This is no insult to DA. Comparing two good QBs to one another does not necessarily mean that you are denigrating either QB's contribution or potential. I ramble on though. The scouting report i.e. grade of the raw materials are below.

Has prototypical size...Hard worker and a leader with elite intangibles...Smart and does not make many mistakes with the ball...Very strong and does not go down easily...Arm strength is excellent...Is mechanically and technically sound...A good athlete who can move in the pocket and scramble a bit...Has a lot of experience against top-notch competition...Knows how to read a defense and has been well schooled in a pro-style offense by a noted quarterback guru...Is very tough and durable and has never missed any action despite taking quite a beating at times during his career...A clutch player who has come through big in tough situations and plays his best when the game is on the line...Is accustomed to the spotlight.http://www.mymockdraft.com/719/PlayerDetail.aspx

This second one is interesting as it predicted BQ's fall in the draft. The reasoning for the fall was not anything related to BQ rather that there were only two teams who were possibly interested in drafting a QB with their first pick early in the 1st round. Given this little tidbit, BQ is even a better bargain imo, than any of us even had realized. BQ was a legit top 3 pick, but the market wasn't there for him, so he dropped.

When a stat-line of 289 for 467 (61.9%) for 3,426 yards and 37 touchdowns to just seven interceptions doesn't live up to expectations, you know that much is required of the player in question. For Brady Quinn, that's what comes with the territory of being a four-year starting quarterback at Notre Dame. Quinn clearly had an outstanding senior season, but he did not win the Heisman as he was favored in the preseason to do and he did not assert himself as the clear-cut top overall pick in the 2007 NFL Draft. Of course, LSU quarterback JaMarcus Russell is more to blame for that development than Quinn himself. Quinn has great size and arm strength, although both assets pale in comparison to those of Russell. He is also a natural leader and a very smart quarterback who rarely makes poor decisions. Quinn is also tough to bring down. What gets Quinn in trouble is defenses who put a lot of pressure on him, as LSU was able to do in the Sugar Bowl. He should be one of the first two picks in the draft, but if both Oakland and Detroit bypass him, Quinn could endure a minor plunge down the board. Last Updated Feb-28-2007
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Unread postby jb » Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:21 pm

Steve Buffum wrote:
JB wrote:And you can't call BS casue I called it first.

Can he call meta-BS?


I rely on you to break these matters down for me.
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Unread postby Spin » Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:37 pm

DID Brady Quinn bring Notre Dame down in those games, or did Brady Quinn make the Notre Dame team much better than it was and get them to those games in the first place?

Here's a hint. They're 1-9 without him...

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Unread postby FUDU » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:30 pm

S - U - N - D- A - Y

I can type slower if you wish.

That and the whole X season when he was in a "competition".


Dude if you think Sunday's game was a "big" game then you have some problems. Sunday's game as it stands right now means little in the grand scheme of things and little for this season. It means we won't win the division, but that was as much a given gong into the game as anything. IF we don't even get the WC it will have little to do with that game as our schedule is set up in which we really should win enough games to get a WC.

Add to the fact that IF our D made one stop on third down in one of the Steelers last two drives we wouldn't even be talking about DA and his performance b/c we would have won.

but if you are going to count Sunday's than YOU have to count the prior Sunday against Seattle...which means he is even in the clutch spots.

Man we are getting ridiculous with our nit picking and this guy.
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Unread postby Hi Oktane » Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:04 pm

FUDU wrote:
S - U - N - D- A - Y

I can type slower if you wish.

That and the whole X season when he was in a "competition".


Dude if you think Sunday's game was a "big" game then you have some problems. Sunday's game as it stands right now means little in the grand scheme of things and little for this season. It means we won't win the division, but that was as much a given gong into the game as anything.



"as it stands right now" - Sure, but only b/c we lost.

Let's be honest, that game did (for them and could have for us) decide(d) the winner of the division. It was by far the biggest game to date. That said, DA will have many more opportunities under fire to prove his worth.
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Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:14 pm

JB wrote:
SD:

I call BS on your BS , not because you don't have an opinion or you're just spouting off in your normal venomous perverse spew as you unwind from yet another bitter disappointing loss like the rest of us Browns fans ,
but mostly because you come off as just another Fool on a barstool with tunnel vision while you drink yourself into an unintelligible stupor while peering outta out of the panty leg hole created by Lady Quinns DRAWLS draped over your head.


U R certifable w/ uer FB takes, but that is quality smak right thar. Nice.

And you can't call BS casue I called it first.


This shit speak for itself ....

Anderson, Derek QB CLE 292 164 2231 20 9 90.7 20 55 2.8 2 0 0 0 0.0 0 1 202.0 Manning, Peyton QB IND 315 202 2386 16 10 90.8 10 -6 -0.6 3 0 0 0 0.0 0 1 186.0 Favre, Brett QB GB 354 238 2757 16 8 96.2 17 -2 -0.1 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 2 182.0 Hasselbeck, Matt QB SEA 320 200 2301 15 8 89.3 22 55 2.5 0 1 0 0 0.0 0 2 160.0 Kitna, Jon QB DET 299 202 2294 12 8 92.6 21 46 2.2 0 1 1 9 9.0 0 5 134.0


better copy here if this don't turn out .

Anderson, Derek ..QB CLE 292 164 2231 20 9 90.7 20 55 2.8 2 0 0 0 0.0 0 1 202.0
Manning, Peyton ...QB IND 315 202 2386 16 10 90.8 10 -6 -0.6 3 0 0 0 0.0 0 1 186.0
Favre, Brett ..........QB GB 354 238 2757 16 8 96.2 17 -2 -0.1 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 2 182.0
Hasselbeck, Matt ...QB SEA 320 200 2301 15 8 89.3 22 55 2.5 0 1 0 0 0.0 0 2 160.0
Kitna, Jon .............QB DET 299 202 2294 12 8 92.6 21 46 2.2 0 1 1 9 9.0 0 5 134.0

tagged from a fantasy point board post , but it serves a s nice comparison chart.


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Unread postby HoodooMan » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:13 pm

tagged from a fantasy point board post , but it serves a s nice comparison chart.

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Unread postby Spin » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:31 pm

Oh, and the last Cleveland semi-pro championship team was in 2004. I'll give a shiny new nickel to the person who first names them.


ImageImage

As much as I like watching minor league sports, you'dd think I'd know more about semi-pro. Do we have a semipro basketball team? If so we might be missing the best show in town, guys.

I had a partner who was a semipro football player. She played for Toledo. We never messed with her...
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Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:49 pm

[quote="HoodooMan"]tagged from a fantasy point board post , but it serves a s nice comparison chart.

Hoodooo where's the burning hair man ,,,,

Quality Bro its allways the quality :)





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