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#4, #22, and _________?

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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:19 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:3. Bradford (looking kind of shitty right now)


^I mean, smart (36 wonderlic), nice athlete, really accurate arm, prototypical size, plays in that great Big 12 conference...



Injury prone prospects don't generally turn into Iron man. Yeah, 8 Ball did after his rookie season. But I also give you Montario Hurt-is-he and TJ Ward.

When you draft guys who are always hurt and they end up hurt, I mean, duh.

Plus OU's system inflated several preceding QB's.

I still don't think Bradford is all that.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:20 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Headline today from the PD:

Cleveland Browns have had preliminary talks with the Rams about trading up to No. 2 for Griffin III, report says


There's really no reason to read the article (the headline says it all), but if you want to:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/02/cleveland_browns_have_had_prel.html

I don't know how much I believe all of these reports about what our front office is saying. I mean our GM is recovering from heart surgery. How much work do we think he's doing? To me, the Browns haven't said anything to anybody yet and are waiting for other teams to move.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:28 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Naw Doodoo, I shared your Young fascination.

And I thought Quin was a safe QB.

:-(



Right.

And who the fuck are we?

I'll answer: NOBODIES. Yeah, we all come on the inter webs and BS and fuck with each other, but let's keep that all in perspective.

We are not privy to what these pros have info-wise. Applying the standard of our hit and misses or opinions to pro GM's is beyond asinine. It's the allegory of the cave.

And yet these guys still all miss because the players are human or they take risks out of perceived necessity.

RG3 could miss. But it'll be solely for reasons that's he's RG3 and not Rick Meier, Ryan Leaf, Labia Young, JaCodeine ChickenandWaffles, or The Throwing Freakin' Samoan.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:29 pm

andrew6586 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Headline today from the PD:

Cleveland Browns have had preliminary talks with the Rams about trading up to No. 2 for Griffin III, report says


There's really no reason to read the article (the headline says it all), but if you want to:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/02/cleveland_browns_have_had_prel.html

I don't know how much I believe all of these reports about what our front office is saying. I mean our GM is recovering from heart surgery. How much work do we think he's doing? To me, the Browns haven't said anything to anybody yet and are waiting for other teams to move.


He already asked.

Why do you think he needed heart surgery?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:30 pm

SORRY WE ALL CAN'T BE PROFESSIONAL QB EVAL SCIENTISTS LIKE SD AND DARRYL CLARK JB, DICK
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:30 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:SORRY WE ALL CAN'T BE PROFESSIONAL QB EVAL SCIENTISTS LIKE SD AND DARRYL CLARK JB, DICK



Tuesday happy hour on Boylston have WiFi now?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:33 pm

jb wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:SORRY WE ALL CAN'T BE PROFESSIONAL QB EVAL SCIENTISTS LIKE SD AND DARRYL CLARK JB, DICK



Tuesday happy hour on Boylston have WiFi now?


Post two hour process improvement meeting/bitch sesssion explosion.....
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:35 pm

And two things, 1) my pub's wifi is broke and 2) Happy Hour is illegal in Mass for reasons I don't understand
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:35 pm

jb wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Naw Doodoo, I shared your Young fascination.

And I thought Quin was a safe QB.

:-(



Right.

And who the fuck are we?

I'll answer: NOBODIES. Yeah, we all come on the inter webs and BS and fuck with each other, but let's keep that all in perspective.

We are not privy to what these pros have info-wise. Applying the standard of our hit and misses or opinions to pro GM's is beyond asinine. It's the allegory of the cave.

And yet these guys still all miss because the players are human or they take risks out of perceived necessity.

RG3 could miss. But it'll be solely for reasons that's he's RG3 and not Rick Meier, Ryan Leaf, Labia Young, JaCodeine ChickenandWaffles, or The Throwing Freakin' Samoan.


I'd swear we have you on record here saying that beyond the shadow of a doubt you could draft better from your couch than most GM's in the league......
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:40 pm

JCoz wrote:
jb wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Naw Doodoo, I shared your Young fascination.

And I thought Quin was a safe QB.

:-(



Right.

And who the fuck are we?

I'll answer: NOBODIES. Yeah, we all come on the inter webs and BS and fuck with each other, but let's keep that all in perspective.

We are not privy to what these pros have info-wise. Applying the standard of our hit and misses or opinions to pro GM's is beyond asinine. It's the allegory of the cave.

And yet these guys still all miss because the players are human or they take risks out of perceived necessity.

RG3 could miss. But it'll be solely for reasons that's he's RG3 and not Rick Meier, Ryan Leaf, Labia Young, JaCodeine ChickenandWaffles, or The Throwing Freakin' Samoan.


I'd swear we have you on record here saying that beyond the shadow of a doubt you could draft better from your couch than most GM's in the league......


No. Two things.

One, I actually believe about 73.6% of what I write. I leave it to you all to deduce the 26.4%.

Two. I wrote the BROWNS GM's before heckert.

And I stand by that. I think SD could bet Kokinis, drunk or sober, BTW.

Let alone if I had the research. Lol.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:44 pm

jb wrote:No. Two things.

One, I actually believe about 73.6% of what I write. I leave it to you all to deduce the 26.4%.

Two. I wrote the BROWNS GM's before heckert.

And I stand by that. I think SD could bet Kokinis, drunk or sober, BTW.

Let alone if I had the research. Lol.


Lol, yeah I'll give you that.

That bar is set so low it might be buried.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:45 pm

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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:01 pm

jb wrote:And who the fuck are we?

I'll answer: NOBODIES. Yeah, we all come on the inter webs and BS and fuck with each other, but let's keep that all in perspective.

We are not privy to what these pros have info-wise. Applying the standard of our hit and misses or opinions to pro GM's is beyond asinine. It's the allegory of the cave.


I'm applying their own standard of hits & misses.

1-Newton (seems to be a hit at the moment)
1-Bradford (seems to be a miss at the moment)
1-Stafford (seems to be a hit at the moment)
1-Russell (miss)
1-Smith (miss)
1-Manning (hit)
1-Palmer (hit)
1-Carr (miss)
1-Vick (hit)
1-Couch (miss)
2-McNabb (hit)
1-Manning (hit)
2-Leaf (miss)
1-Bledsoe (hit)
2-Mirer (miss)
1-George (miss)
1-Aikman (hit)
1-Testaverde (miss...anyone quoting career passing yardage stats can STFU in advance)
1-Elway (hit)

10/19

NFL GMs did that; not Joe Fans.

And all those But They Shoulda Done Knowns = hindsight BS.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:04 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:And two things, 1) my pub's wifi is broke and 2) Happy Hour is illegal in Mass for reasons I don't understand



Its 24/7 drinking there and the prices are too high to ever discount?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:09 pm

All fair DooDoo, but do you not see some examples (Smith/Carr) of teams overdrafting meh just to have a QB? I mean does that example really line up against this year?

And where is Matty Ice in your list?

PS: It's some shit about different prices at different times of the day being unfair business practices JB
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:11 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
jb wrote:And who the fuck are we?

I'll answer: NOBODIES. Yeah, we all come on the inter webs and BS and fuck with each other, but let's keep that all in perspective.

We are not privy to what these pros have info-wise. Applying the standard of our hit and misses or opinions to pro GM's is beyond asinine. It's the allegory of the cave.


I'm applying their own standard of hits & misses.

1-Newton (seems to be a hit at the moment)
1-Bradford (seems to be a miss at the moment)
1-Stafford (seems to be a hit at the moment)
1-Russell (miss)
1-Smith (miss)
1-Manning (hit)
1-Palmer (hit)
1-Carr (miss)
1-Vick (hit)
1-Couch (miss)
2-McNabb (hit)
1-Manning (hit)
2-Leaf (miss)
1-Bledsoe (hit)
2-Mirer (miss)
1-George (miss)
1-Aikman (hit)
1-Testaverde (miss...anyone quoting career passing yardage stats can STFU in advance)
1-Elway (hit)

10/19

NFL GMs did that; not Joe Fans.

And all those But They Shoulda Done Knowns = hindsight BS.



For a smart guy, you're fuckin' idiot. ::doh::

I mean that nicely.

19 isn't remotely statistically significant in any way. It's 19 case studies. Christ, my daughter is studying that in grade 5 now.

And you can go down that list and ID in most cases WHY those players missed and know that reason existed well before they ever played on Sunday and mitigating factors overrode the perceived risk OR the GM's that picked them F'd up the situation around them. It's rare that something came out of the blue and bit their asses.

Having written that, if RG3 epic fails I promise you it will not be because of a lack or physical tools or dooshbaggery bootheadedness. It will be because of injury or inability to transition from spread to NFL. Which, to sum it the fuck up for you, means that the Ryan Leaf example means jackdidley shit.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:13 pm

I'm not a Browns fan so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think some of you are glossing over just how big of a price tag this is shaping up to involve. #4 and #22 is fine under the circumstances (for many of the reasons pointed out above, i.e. QB league, restless fanbase, 22 is kind of a bonus pick anyway, etc.). But, to include anything else beyond one more pick in rounds 3-4 and maybe one more pick in rounds 5-6 is really pushing it. Three number one picks could probably jumpstart serious trade discussions for any current QB outside the top 5 and second round picks are golden opportunities to acquire good talent on a cheap contract. I wouldn't put either option on the table.

The Eli/Rivers deal (1, 1, 3, 5) should be your drop dead offer but I'm glad some people pointed out that it isn't a good comparison, at least right now. The rookie wage scale changes everything and the reported Washington offer has already set the bar higher. Plus, I still think San Diego pillaged New York in that deal. Rivers was head and shoulders better than Eli before last season, Merriman and Kaeding had multiple pro bowl years, and they eventually flipped the fifth rounder for a starting tackle. That deal took 7+ years (i.e. the middle of the guys 2nd contract) to even enter the realm of fair. '07 Rivers could have done '07 Eli's job in his sleep for NY's first Super Bowl. So we still don't have a good concrete example where selling the farm worked. Offer that deal and if STL wants more, oh well.

And on the flip side, if Washington's offer is BS and STL gets the willies about leaving the top 5, you never know where these negotiations may head. STL has zero credible threat to take the guy themselves, as is usually not the case in these scenarios, and there's arguably a dropoff after pick 5, where the rest of the suitors reside in the draft. Don't sell the value of your 4th pick short. 4 and 22 now and add the 3rd and 5th rounder later if push comes to shove. If the Washington offer is real, good riddance, but 4 and 22 alone might be enough once the hype cools down a little.

I think all HooDoo is trying to say is that Griffin looks awesome but isn't really distinguishable at this point from the typical top 5 QB prospects in previous years. It's one thing just to take a guy but to risk what would probably amount to 2 more upper echelon starters on a shitty roster (assuming those in charge know what they're doing at other spots, but that's an entirely different debate) is a no go for me. Someone brought up the Ravens as a cautionary tale about bad QB play on a good roster but even in getting B/B- play from Flacco, they're knocking on the door every year and easily could have made 2 of the last 4 Super Bowls with a couple of breaks. Doesn't that sound good right about now?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:16 pm

I'll go on record now stating that no team in the league will trade three first round picks for RG3. If they do just call me SD.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:18 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I'll go on record now stating that no team in the league will trade three first round picks for RG3. If they do just call me SD.



Hmmm. Thinking about betting you.

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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:20 pm

Kingpin74 wrote:
I think all HooDoo is trying to say is that Griffin looks awesome but isn't really distinguishable at this point from the typical top 5 QB prospects in previous years.



No, he's saying statistically 50% fail and RG3:Leaf::Luck:Peyton.

He knows it's nonsense but he's too far out there and out of pride will not backpeddle. He's caught in a "Santorum".
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:28 pm

Oh, for fuck's sake, JB. It's 30 years worth of highly drafted QB history. It's all we have, unless you want to go back before anything resembling modern passing offenses. You expand it to Top 1/3 of the 1st round, the hit-rate basically remains the same. (ETA: FTR, on another look, this is not quite true, Picks 3-11 are at about 33%)

I'll take that over some intellectually dishonest revisionist BS about what GMs knew in the past, what they should have known, how they should have known to avoid certain guys and to jump on others, and how all this present-day enlightenment means Luck & RG3 (unlike 30 years worth of predecessors) are safe bets, and just pretend they're already established young Top 10 NFL QBs and throw our next two drafts away to get one of them.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:34 pm

jb wrote:RG3:Leaf::Luck:Peyton.


Where the F did you get that from?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:40 pm

Kingpin74 wrote:The Eli/Rivers deal (1, 1, 3, 5) should be your drop dead offer but I'm glad some people pointed out that it isn't a good comparison, at least right now. The rookie wage scale changes everything and the reported Washington offer has already set the bar higher. Plus, I still think San Diego pillaged New York in that deal. Rivers was head and shoulders better than Eli before last season


SD had another comparable QB talent waiting for them even if they moved down. If RG3 does indeed go at 2, there's no comparable value guy at #4. If Rivers wasn't there, 1, 1, 3, 5 doesn't get it done - no way SD gives up Eli for that if they move down to 4 and take Blackmon or Kalil. We're lucky - if STL didn't have a QB, you couldn't pry RG3 from them if you offered them Europe.

Kingpin74 wrote:Someone brought up the Ravens as a cautionary tale about bad QB play on a good roster but even in getting B/B- play from Flacco, they're knocking on the door every year and easily could have made 2 of the last 4 Super Bowls with a couple of breaks. Doesn't that sound good right about now?


Ah, the "I Just Wanna Be Competitive" stance. You sure you're not a Browns fan? ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:45 pm

The cautionary tale I brought up was pre Flacco, so I think you missed the point, King. They spent a decade wasting the careers of HOF's on the defensive side of the ball because they failed to address the QB position.

I'm still not on the Flacco bandwagon, but IMO he outplayed Brady and they should have been in the SB. They may have their guy, i don't know at this point.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:55 pm

JCoz wrote:The cautionary tale I brought up was pre Flacco, so I think you missed the point, King. They spent a decade wasting the careers of HOF's on the defensive side of the ball because they failed to address the QB position.

I'm still not on the Flacco bandwagon, but IMO he outplayed Brady and they should have been in the SB. They may have their guy, i don't know at this point.


I too think the book's still out on Flacco, unlike Mark Sanchez - QB of another cautionary tale team.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:56 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:SORRY WE ALL CAN'T BE PROFESSIONAL QB EVAL SCIENTISTS LIKE SD AND DARRYL CLARK JB, DICK


SD:

Clark in the fourth round where I pimped him still brought more to the table than Colt after 20 games in the NFL playing who know what now in Canada .

I was in the camp that thought Couch would be the bomb and worth taking over the Ditka deal mcNabb and Akillme , who I flat out couldn't stand.

I missed on Breeze , said he couldn't finish , it took him awhile to prove me wrong , but his second team was a rebirth and he played some ball in Norlens that is hard to believe even when your watching it live .

I wanted Jamarcus Russel along with Savage , and still believe he wouldn't have busted here like he went down the toilet in Oakland as the largest turd ever, simply faith based on Savage doing everything he could not to see it happen , ie there wouldn't have been the holdout and the lost season , to see that arm go to waste , reminds me of that drug commercial where they fry and egg and say thisis your mind on crack.

Been hoping every season since kosar got traded , that the Browns would bring in a stud at the key spot in the game .

watched to many games with Stabler Len Dawson Bart Star johnny u Joe Namath and roger staubauch in the old days to ever be convinced the game can be played without a stud leader.

I like everything about luck , who is a phenominal athlete in his own right , whoever picks him can start him tomorrow because of all his time in a pro set .

I liken RG3 to Bruce Lee , in that its hard to imagine so much power and explosion from such a compact package, his skillset is beyond the pale , with one of the finest arms in football and sprinters speed .

but his biggest assett ASFIC is that six inches between his ears , Thats what does it for me.

On Cam Newton , i had him rated #1A to Lucks number one last year and Barkley at 3 not two , thats how much they were beyond him , I anticipated this feeding frenzy and said If Carolina had him on the table they wouldn't part with the pick for three #1's which is why weshould move now for Newton , because the cost to upgrade at the top would only go up .

Said Colt didn't warrant a solo shot and it was in our bests interests to hedge our bets with better and trade up for Newton in real time.

RG3 was not on my radar then , just like 90% of the 2013 picks aren't there now save for the kid in Arkansas and lienart II err i mean Barkley the rich kid playing QB ,..

My fourth round Daryll Clark project is Logan Thomas from Vt, he has the talent to be a first round pick next season if he works and can get those size 16 feet moving in the same direction ,raw as an onion right now so laugh all you want now .....doubt you get the chance later.

Right now my focus is on if the Browns are gonna fish or cut bait, Holmgren has to recognize
this is that moment in time which will define his legacy .

A true chance for football immortality if he busts a move , or an over hyped bust who tarnished his Greenbay rep and failed two franchises from the FO if he doesn't


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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:56 pm

JCoz wrote:The cautionary tale I brought up was pre Flacco, so I think you missed the point, King. They spent a decade wasting the careers of HOF's on the defensive side of the ball because they failed to address the QB position.

I'm still not on the Flacco bandwagon, but IMO he outplayed Brady and they should have been in the SB. They may have their guy, i don't know at this point.


That's fine, but they got him at the 20th pick or something like that. I don't think he's great either, but they didn't have to broker a huge trade in the top 5 to get him and compete. And Hiko makes a good point about the QB alternative that SD had in '04. I still think the Browns should avoid paying more than the Eli price but if they don't like the projected options in the top 10-15 of next year's draft or the next two trade/free agency periods, that moves the needle.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:07 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
jb wrote:RG3:Leaf::Luck:Peyton.


Where the F did you get that from?



26.4 %

:lmfao:
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:10 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Oh, for fuck's sake, JB. It's 30 years worth of highly drafted QB history. It's all we have, unless you want to go back before anything resembling modern passing offenses. You expand it to Top 1/3 of the 1st round, the hit-rate basically remains the same. (ETA: FTR, on another look, this is not quite true, Picks 3-11 are at about 33%)

I'll take that over some intellectually dishonest revisionist BS about what GMs knew in the past, what they should have known, how they should have known to avoid certain guys and to jump on others, and how all this present-day enlightenment means Luck & RG3 (unlike 30 years worth of predecessors) are safe bets, and just pretend they're already established young Top 10 NFL QBs and throw our next two drafts away to get one of them.



Dude, all F'n around side, I'm Eric Mangini and ur Shawn Rogers at a banquet.

I'm saying all you got is case study, and you keep telling me 3 / 11 = 33%.

There's nothing wrong inherently with a rationalist position, but it is subjective and the backing supporting points need to be convincing. I see some merit in yours where I am not knee jerk against your take in football philosophies, but given the potential upside of RG3 you do not convince. But that's just me, so I know there's no sleep lost.

I'll see yah down the road on another one. Cheers.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:30 pm

Kingpin74 wrote:The Eli/Rivers deal (1, 1, 3, 5) should be your drop dead offer but I'm glad some people pointed out that it isn't a good comparison, at least right now. The rookie wage scale changes everything and the reported Washington offer has already set the bar higher. Plus, I still think San Diego pillaged New York in that deal. Rivers was head and shoulders better than Eli before last season, Merriman and Kaeding had multiple pro bowl years, and they eventually flipped the fifth rounder for a starting tackle. That deal took 7+ years (i.e. the middle of the guys 2nd contract) to even enter the realm of fair. '07 Rivers could have done '07 Eli's job in his sleep for NY's first Super Bowl. So we still don't have a good concrete example where selling the farm worked. Offer that deal and if STL wants more, oh well.



I wish people would stop using the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls as the shining example of why the Browns shouldn't trade up the way the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls did.

Did the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls overpay for the QB who won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls? I don't know. I suppose it's a possibility. I suppose if they didn't trade for the QB who won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls, and instead kept the QB who didn't win any of the last 5 Super Bowls plus Merriman and a pretty good kicker...then The Team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls might have not only won those 2 Super Bowls, they might have won the absolute fucking shit out of those 2 Super Bowls that they won, you know, with the QB that they over payed for.

Ah, what might have been. They must be kicking themselves.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:39 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Kingpin74 wrote:The Eli/Rivers deal (1, 1, 3, 5) should be your drop dead offer but I'm glad some people pointed out that it isn't a good comparison, at least right now. The rookie wage scale changes everything and the reported Washington offer has already set the bar higher. Plus, I still think San Diego pillaged New York in that deal. Rivers was head and shoulders better than Eli before last season, Merriman and Kaeding had multiple pro bowl years, and they eventually flipped the fifth rounder for a starting tackle. That deal took 7+ years (i.e. the middle of the guys 2nd contract) to even enter the realm of fair. '07 Rivers could have done '07 Eli's job in his sleep for NY's first Super Bowl. So we still don't have a good concrete example where selling the farm worked. Offer that deal and if STL wants more, oh well.



I wish people would stop using the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls as the shining example of why the Browns shouldn't trade up the way the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls did.

Did the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls overpay for the QB who won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls? I don't know. I suppose it's a possibility. I suppose if they didn't trade for the QB who won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls, and instead kept the QB who didn't win any of the last 5 Super Bowls plus Merriman and a pretty good kicker...then The Team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls might have not only won those 2 Super Bowls, they might have won the absolute fucking shit out of those 2 Super Bowls that they won, you know, with the QB that they over payed for.

Ah, what might have been. They must be kicking themselves.



Inhaling the office stash again, eh?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:42 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:SORRY WE ALL CAN'T BE PROFESSIONAL QB EVAL SCIENTISTS LIKE SD AND DARRYL CLARK JB, DICK


SD:

Clark in the fourth round where I pimped him


Liar!

You were jizzing screens around the world with your pimpage of Clark in the 2nd....I know because I was mocking you
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:42 pm

Well...yeah. How could you tell?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:53 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Well...yeah. How could you tell?



You suggested Jesse Palmer develops and win Super Bowls.

He was their young QB on the roster before Eli.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:03 pm

jb wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Well...yeah. How could you tell?



You suggested Jesse Palmer develops and win Super Bowls.

He was their young QB on the roster before Eli.


Christ, that's not what I meant at all. Kingpin was alluding to the fact that San Diego "pillaged" the Giants in that deal and Rivers was head and shoulders better than Eli. I took it as him saying the Giants shouldn't have made that trade, and instead taken Rivers, Merriman, and Keading.

That just seemed insane to me. I mean, the Giants made the trade and won 2 fucking Super Bowls. How the hell could they have overpayed?

I mean, if you don't want to trade up for a QB, don't use the team that did exactly that and won 2 Super Bowls as your reason.

Fer Fuck sake, Jesse Palmer? Nobody ever understands what the fuck I'm talking about.

Even with my hilarious little comment about not only wining Super Bowls, but absolutely "winning the fucking shit out of them", which NY apparently would have done if they hadn't made that ill-advised Eli Manning trade.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:23 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Kingpin74 wrote:The Eli/Rivers deal (1, 1, 3, 5) should be your drop dead offer but I'm glad some people pointed out that it isn't a good comparison, at least right now. The rookie wage scale changes everything and the reported Washington offer has already set the bar higher. Plus, I still think San Diego pillaged New York in that deal. Rivers was head and shoulders better than Eli before last season, Merriman and Kaeding had multiple pro bowl years, and they eventually flipped the fifth rounder for a starting tackle. That deal took 7+ years (i.e. the middle of the guys 2nd contract) to even enter the realm of fair. '07 Rivers could have done '07 Eli's job in his sleep for NY's first Super Bowl. So we still don't have a good concrete example where selling the farm worked. Offer that deal and if STL wants more, oh well.



I wish people would stop using the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls as the shining example of why the Browns shouldn't trade up the way the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls did.

Did the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls overpay for the QB who won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls? I don't know. I suppose it's a possibility. I suppose if they didn't trade for the QB who won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls, and instead kept the QB who didn't win any of the last 5 Super Bowls plus Merriman and a pretty good kicker...then The Team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls might have not only won those 2 Super Bowls, they might have won the absolute fucking shit out of those 2 Super Bowls that they won, you know, with the QB that they over payed for.

Ah, what might have been. They must be kicking themselves.


Mo, that was a fine fine post. :thumb up:

But pssst... it's "overpaid".

And you can't have overpaid when you get 2 rings. Just like Genghis Khan used to say - "The ends justify the means."
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:52 pm

Hikohadon wrote: And you can't have overpaid when you get 2 rings. Just like Genghis Khan used to say - "The ends justify the means."


I thought that was Machiavelli?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:05 pm

overpaid.

Shit. I knew that didn't look right, but I couldn't figure it out.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:57 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:SORRY WE ALL CAN'T BE PROFESSIONAL QB EVAL SCIENTISTS LIKE SD AND DARRYL CLARK JB, DICK


SD:

Clark in the fourth round where I pimped him


Liar!

You were jizzing screens around the world with your pimpage of Clark in the 2nd....I know because I was mocking you


SD:

Your momma Fucko , there is a marked difference between mid season speculation and end of the season mocks , i had him as worthy of a fourth in my final grade after the bowl game and still do, and its in the archives.

Not that it would matter to a hatin twat like you , so Mutha Fuck Ya in your big square head,
you bow legged cum suckin slut



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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:56 am

motherscratcher wrote:
I wish people would stop using the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls as the shining example of why the Browns shouldn't trade up the way the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls did.

Did the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls overpay for the QB who won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls? I don't know. I suppose it's a possibility. I suppose if they didn't trade for the QB who won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls, and instead kept the QB who didn't win any of the last 5 Super Bowls plus Merriman and a pretty good kicker...then The Team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls might have not only won those 2 Super Bowls, they might have won the absolute fucking shit out of those 2 Super Bowls that they won, you know, with the QB that they over payed for.

Ah, what might have been. They must be kicking themselves.


Point taken, you can't argue with those results. But to give you a way more extreme example, I'm a Tampa Bay Bucs fan and they traded two #1s, two #2s, and $10 Mill cash to the Raiders for Jon Gruden when they were up shit creek in their 2002 coaching search. Gruden won us a Super Bowl, I firmly believe Dungy couldn't have done it with the same players, and I wouldn't change anything about the way it happened. But does that mean it would be good business for another team to make that move now in a similar situation? If you think so, that's fine but I disagree. And I think this Griffin debate applies on a smaller scale.

But excusing a ransom that the Browns are about to pay because Eli worked out for the Giants (and I said I would pay the Eli price anyway) is a little like greenlighting a questionable poker move because the right cards happened to hit on the turn and river for the last guy. I really think that trade was lopsided before the mid-2011 season, you're forgetting how much 2011-12 Eli differed from 2007-2008 Eli and how good a lot of those Charger teams were. Now, the trade is probably equal. You pay that price but no more. Winning Super Bowls has become much more of a crapshoot in the later rounds than it used to be. It's hard to look at that by itself when you're dealing with a different team and different situation. Give me more bullets in the gun when the roster is this bad. Again, I really don't care what they do here but I just think a few of you are overlooking just how much you're giving up.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:13 am

Holy shit, did they really pay that much for Gruden? Wow. That's insane.

I get what you are saying. I understand why someone would be hesitant to overpay. But what others might call overpaying, I would be more inclined to call fair market value, I guess. It must seems like QB is that important. And I honestly have no idea when or from where we get that QB down the road, other than dumb luck, if we don't way whatever it costs right now.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:19 am

How in the hell are you not a 49ers or Raiders fan King, damn....
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:53 am

gotribe31 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote: And you can't have overpaid when you get 2 rings. Just like Genghis Khan used to say - "The ends justify the means."


I thought that was Machiavelli?


Those aren't the same?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:03 am

Kingpin74 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
I wish people would stop using the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls as the shining example of why the Browns shouldn't trade up the way the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls did.

Did the team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls overpay for the QB who won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls? I don't know. I suppose it's a possibility. I suppose if they didn't trade for the QB who won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls, and instead kept the QB who didn't win any of the last 5 Super Bowls plus Merriman and a pretty good kicker...then The Team that won 2 of the last 5 Super Bowls might have not only won those 2 Super Bowls, they might have won the absolute fucking shit out of those 2 Super Bowls that they won, you know, with the QB that they over payed for.

Ah, what might have been. They must be kicking themselves.


Point taken, you can't argue with those results. But to give you a way more extreme example, I'm a Tampa Bay Bucs fan and they traded two #1s, two #2s, and $10 Mill cash to the Raiders for Jon Gruden when they were up shit creek in their 2002 coaching search. Gruden won us a Super Bowl, I firmly believe Dungy couldn't have done it with the same players, and I wouldn't change anything about the way it happened. But does that mean it would be good business for another team to make that move now in a similar situation? If you think so, that's fine but I disagree. And I think this Griffin debate applies on a smaller scale.

But excusing a ransom that the Browns are about to pay because Eli worked out for the Giants (and I said I would pay the Eli price anyway) is a little like greenlighting a questionable poker move because the right cards happened to hit on the turn and river for the last guy. I really think that trade was lopsided before the mid-2011 season, you're forgetting how much 2011-12 Eli differed from 2007-2008 Eli and how good a lot of those Charger teams were. Now, the trade is probably equal. You pay that price but no more. Winning Super Bowls has become much more of a crapshoot in the later rounds than it used to be. It's hard to look at that by itself when you're dealing with a different team and different situation. Give me more bullets in the gun when the roster is this bad. Again, I really don't care what they do here but I just think a few of you are overlooking just how much you're giving up.


SD:

Dude we went a whopping 4 -12 last year after a stellar 5 -11 season following another spectacular 5-11 result .

We play in a division which has arguably three of the top 15 QB's in football with Dalton emerging , and we play six games with them while trotting out the worst offense and the worst QB's in football .

We have no chance .

I'll take slim over nothing all day long and twice on Sundays .

Moreover , we have extra picks and extra ammo to move up where we won't be stuck in a permanent hemmoragic state after the move , plus we have cash and cap room to make noise in free agency .

The catch twenty now here is , nobody save our own free agents will be intereted in coming here until we shoot our wad and bust a move on a player like RG3 or possbly Flynn which would be a plan C in my book .

So its simple .

Shit or get the fuck off the pot and on to permant irrelevancy .


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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby trsteve1 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:16 am

"The Rams are seeking a deal similar to what the San Diego Chargers got for the rights to 2004 top overall pick Eli Manning, the sources said Monday." [1,1,3,5]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2012/story/_/id/7625073/st-louis-rams-executive-kevin-demoff-team-willing-deal-no-2-nfl-draft-pick

Smoke and mirrors may get the #2 without giving up two 1s, but we might be able to get there without giving up a 2nd rounder.. if by some miracle we could go [1,2,3] or some combination like that, it would be thievery... I think the Rams are looking to take Kalil or Blackmon (whoever falls to them with whatever pick they drop down to)

Of course, dream world is we run enough smoke screens and diversion that the Rams have to sit on #2, draft Kalil, Minny drafts whatever they draft (Blackmon maybe?) and RGIII falls to us at #4

Of course, then the question remains is RGIII the QB for us?

I sit on this odd fence where I like McCoy (kind of irrationally, yea, I know) and want him to get his chance, and preferably in Cleveland, but RGIII is loaded with talent and promise and that's exciting.. damn cake is so good I want to have it and eat it...
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:13 am

trsteve1 wrote:Of course, dream world is we run enough smoke screens and diversion that the Rams have to sit on #2, draft Kalil, Minny drafts whatever they draft (Blackmon maybe?) and RGIII falls to us at #4

Of course, then the question remains is RGIII the QB for us?

I sit on this odd fence where I like McCoy (kind of irrationally, yea, I know) and want him to get his chance, and preferably in Cleveland, but RGIII is loaded with talent and promise and that's exciting.. damn cake is so good I want to have it and eat it...


I can see not wanting to give up a whole bunch of stuff to move up to #2, but passing on RG3 if he falls to #4? I think that would be insane.

RG3's ceiling is so much higher than Colt's, and Colt has shown us so little, that sticking with him just to see "what he might have" seems to me like purposely wanting someone to shove a bowling pin up your ass.

Meaning, I can't figure out for the life of me why anyone would want that.

Now, I can see why someone might want to pass on Flynn for Colt, since they have similar ceilings. But passing up a prospect like RG3 if he falls into your lap? It's so hard to conceive that it would short-circuit my brain. You'd find me in Laos wearing a smock braiding my toenails while humming In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:43 am

SoulDawg74 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:SORRY WE ALL CAN'T BE PROFESSIONAL QB EVAL SCIENTISTS LIKE SD AND DARRYL CLARK JB, DICK


SD:

Clark in the fourth round where I pimped him


Liar!

You were jizzing screens around the world with your pimpage of Clark in the 2nd....I know because I was mocking you


SD:

Your momma Fucko , there is a marked difference between mid season speculation and end of the season mocks , i had him as worthy of a fourth in my final grade after the bowl game and still do, and its in the archives.

Not that it would matter to a hatin twat like you , so Mutha Fuck Ya in your big square head,
you bow legged cum suckin slut



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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:56 am

motherscratcher wrote:Holy shit, did they really pay that much for Gruden? Wow. That's insane.

I get what you are saying. I understand why someone would be hesitant to overpay. But what others might call overpaying, I would be more inclined to call fair market value, I guess. It must seems like QB is that important. And I honestly have no idea when or from where we get that QB down the road, other than dumb luck, if we don't way whatever it costs right now.


Absolutely, I understand that, and that's why I'd go 1, 1, 3, 5 when I would normally loathe a deal like that. But I think you have to draw the line somewhere. And e0, family moved to Tampa in high school and I got hooked, didn't miss a home game for 3 years and still fly down for a couple a year. And SD, I know how badly you need a quarterback but this is a multi-year rebuild and I still think you'll have another good opportunity to get one without sacrificing 2 more should-be starters.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:59 am

motherscratcher wrote:
jb wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Well...yeah. How could you tell?



You suggested Jesse Palmer develops and win Super Bowls.

He was their young QB on the roster before Eli.


Christ, that's not what I meant at all. Kingpin was alluding to the fact that San Diego "pillaged" the Giants in that deal and Rivers was head and shoulders better than Eli. I took it as him saying the Giants shouldn't have made that trade, and instead taken Rivers, Merriman, and Keading.

That just seemed insane to me. I mean, the Giants made the trade and won 2 fucking Super Bowls. How the hell could they have overpayed?

I mean, if you don't want to trade up for a QB, don't use the team that did exactly that and won 2 Super Bowls as your reason.

Fer Fuck sake, Jesse Palmer? Nobody ever understands what the fuck I'm talking about.

Even with my hilarious little comment about not only wining Super Bowls, but absolutely "winning the fucking shit out of them", which NY apparently would have done if they hadn't made that ill-advised Eli Manning trade.



Not my fault O'Henry you ain't.

But this is a great take.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:11 am

Kingpin74 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Holy shit, did they really pay that much for Gruden? Wow. That's insane.

I get what you are saying. I understand why someone would be hesitant to overpay. But what others might call overpaying, I would be more inclined to call fair market value, I guess. It must seems like QB is that important. And I honestly have no idea when or from where we get that QB down the road, other than dumb luck, if we don't way whatever it costs right now.


Absolutely, I understand that, and that's why I'd go 1, 1, 3, 5 when I would normally loathe a deal like that. But I think you have to draw the line somewhere. And e0, family moved to Tampa in high school and I got hooked, didn't miss a home game for 3 years and still fly down for a couple a year. And SD, I know how badly you need a quarterback but this is a multi-year rebuild and I still think you'll have another good opportunity to get one without sacrificing 2 more should-be starters.



Yes but with a longer wait, you increase the chance of getting better players on the roster (thru this draft's high picks + however many drafts you wait on a QB) which increases the chance of winning games. I could easily see last year's team + Trent Richardson, a 1st-round WR, and another defense player (with 4, 22, 37) winning 6-7 games, giving the Browns a pick in the 8-10 range and completely taking them out of any franchise QB derby, especially since they wouldn't have an extra #1 pick as another trade asset. A better W/L record means lower draft picks which decreases the chance of obtaining a franchise QB solely through the draft without necessitating a trade up. The only way you're guaranteed to be able to draft a franchise QB is to go 0-16. Just ask the Rams and Vikings how difficult it is; even 2-14 and 3-13 weren't good enough for the #1 pick this year. Depending on everything to fall into the right place at the same time as having an unbelievable horrible year (0-2 wins) is a strategy for disaster and still won't guarantee you the draft pick you desire.

The point is there may never be as good an opportunity to acquire a franchise QB as right now. The Browns have the ammo; the franchise QB is in their sites. Now all that's left is to pull the fucking trigger.
Fuck the Browns...
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