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#4, #22, and _________?

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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:22 pm

I agree with what Herm said in the article that was posted today.

The Browns, rarely have a chance like this..and when they have, they've botched it terribly.

1999- Couch over McNabb
2004- K2 over theRAPIST....and mind you...they did this IN FAVOR OF F-ING JEFF GARCIA AT QB.

You're within striking distance of landing this guy, and if he's this important and this much of a cornerstone of your franchise, than what are you waiting for?

Even from a business standpoint it makes sense. You're not going to get the town and the whole country enamored with a bunch of dudes like Phil Taylor on the roster. I mean, god bless the guy, I love him as a player, but you aren't seeing kids put his poster on their wall like they would even Tim Tebow at this point.

"But he needs weapons"..really? I've seen the Pack and Pats both recently find great success in the league with dudes drafted in the 2nd round on down. Hell, Tom Brady can make Deion f-ing Branch look good.

Also, If this guy looks even the least bit talented, FREE AGENTS WILL ACTUALLY WANT TO SIGN HERE. If he has a buzz around him like Tebow or like a Cam (not that's he's anything like those players in terms of skills..different players), suddenly a guy like Mario Manningham will go "You know what? I like that team, and I think I can be there missing piece to lead them to becoming winners". The status quo ain't doing that. No one's psyched to play with McCoy right now, and no one is psyched to play with a 4-12 football team.

You've got to gamble sometime, You've got to take a shot. If he turns out to be what he's expected? Would make the Cavs run of 06 to 10 seem miniscule in comparison. Town would be rocking, RG3 gets a billboard poster over where LeQuit's used to be, the Browns get Nationaly televised games. You ain't seeing stupid ass yellow towels all over the stadium the final week. If he doesn't? You keep trying. I won't fault the Browns for trying on this and striking out. It happens. Nothing's guaranteed. But at least they would aimed for something other than mediocrity.
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Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:29 pm

Sure, there's some business sense in doing whatever it takes to get the flashy prospect all the fans want. You create some excitement that way.

You know what else makes business sense? Continuing to add good football players to your roster and putting together a good football team.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:31 pm

Does anyone know if Manningham grew up a Browns or Steelers fan?

Not that it makes a huge difference, but if the team you grew up rooting for is the Browns and they offer you the most money it may take away some of the "I don't want to play for that shit and orange mess" stigma.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:32 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Sure, there's some business sense in doing whatever it takes to get the flashy prospect all the fans want. You create some excitement that way.

You know what else makes business sense? Continuing to add good football players to your roster and putting together a good football team.


If RG3 is a top ten QB he is worth more than four draft picks, period.

You at least don't argue with this, right?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:40 pm

But you're not trading four(+) draft picks for a Top 10 QB; you're trading four(+) draft picks for a QB prospect.

Going with the Blackmon/Glenn/Wilson trio again, it would make just as little sense for me to ask whether you agree that a pro-bowl WR, pro-bowl OG/OT, and pro-bowl RB are worth more than a single draft pick.
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...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:43 pm

HoodooMan wrote:But you're not trading four(+) draft picks for a Top 10 QB; you're trading four(+) draft picks for a QB prospect.

Going with the Blackmon/Glenn/Wilson trio again, it would make just as little sense for me to ask whether you agree that a pro-bowl WR, pro-bowl OG/OT, and pro-bowl RB are worth more than a single draft pick.


The caveat of course is, the ceiling in terms of team impact of those three pro-bowlers isn't as high as owning a top ten QB.

That is my point.

I mean as others have pointed out, this is the very rare year where you even have the chance to aquire a QB that would have been the #1 pick any other year.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:52 pm

HoodooMan wrote:But you're not trading four(+) draft picks for a Top 10 QB; you're trading four(+) draft picks for a QB prospect.

Going with the Blackmon/Glenn/Wilson trio again, it would make just as little sense for me to ask whether you agree that a pro-bowl WR, pro-bowl OG/OT, and pro-bowl RB are worth more than a single draft pick.


Fine, let's do that with some starters (or would have been starters) from this year's Pro Bowl.

I've got Maurice Jones-Drew, Ben Grubbs, and Mike Wallace. I'll give you those 3 guys for Tom Brady. Game?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:54 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Does anyone know if Manningham grew up a Browns or Steelers fan?

Not that it makes a huge difference, but if the team you grew up rooting for is the Browns and they offer you the most money it may take away some of the "I don't want to play for that shit and orange mess" stigma.


I was just tossing that out as an example. I saw that he was asked about joining the Browns, and he had something to the effect of "0% chance". My assumption being that, the Browns are looked upon as a laughing stock around the league, and no good FA would waste his time there.

But, per what I heard from a classmate I had who played ball with him Warren he may have been a Steelers fan.
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Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:55 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:The caveat of course is, the ceiling in terms of team impact of those three pro-bowlers isn't as high as owning a top ten QB.


Well, I simply disagree with this. There is one and only one QB in the game today whose age/talent combo would exceed the value of a young pro-bowl WR/OL/RB trio, IMO. Aaron Rodgers.

But that really isn't the issue. Odds are you'd be getting a mixed bag with those 3 players. You have a shot at three great players, but realistically you're happy with one very good to great player, one good player, and one mediocre player. But when you spread the risk out over three really good prospects, your odds of improving your roster are much higher than when you concentrate all that risk into a single prospect.

Dealing all those picks away for RG3 is the lotto shot. Keeping them is building your roster in a conservative fashion with a long-term approach. I prefer the latter.
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:02 pm

Hikohadon wrote:I've got Maurice Jones-Drew, Ben Grubbs, and Mike Wallace. I'll give you those 3 guys for Tom Brady. Game?


Including a RB with 6 years of tread complicates the hypothetical. I'll just say that I'd rather add three 1st year future pro-bowl players at WR, OG, and RB than Tom Brady to the 2012 Cleveland Browns.
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:04 pm

Triple-S wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Does anyone know if Manningham grew up a Browns or Steelers fan?

Not that it makes a huge difference, but if the team you grew up rooting for is the Browns and they offer you the most money it may take away some of the "I don't want to play for that shit and orange mess" stigma.


I was just tossing that out as an example. I saw that he was asked about joining the Browns, and he had something to the effect of "0% chance". My assumption being that, the Browns are looked upon as a laughing stock around the league, and no good FA would waste his time there.

But, per what I heard from a classmate I had who played ball with him Warren he may have been a Steelers fan.


He said in an interview before the SB that he was a Steelers fan. His dad was a Browns fan, but his aunt was a Steelers fan, and she won most of the bragging rights so he became a Steelers fan.

Typical bandwagon douchebag.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:09 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:I've got Maurice Jones-Drew, Ben Grubbs, and Mike Wallace. I'll give you those 3 guys for Tom Brady. Game?


Including a RB with 6 years of tread complicates the hypothetical. I'll just say that I'd rather add three 1st year future pro-bowl players at WR, OG, and RB than Tom Brady to the 2012 Cleveland Browns.



I have my line in the sand on RGIII and I understand where you're coming from. Believe me, I'm not giving up an entire draft or two for RG3. But the picks we're interested in keeping or saving are also 'prospects'.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:09 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:I've got Maurice Jones-Drew, Ben Grubbs, and Mike Wallace. I'll give you those 3 guys for Tom Brady. Game?


Including a RB with 6 years of tread complicates the hypothetical. I'll just say that I'd rather add three 1st year future pro-bowl players at WR, OG, and RB than Tom Brady to the 2012 Cleveland Browns.


The only way that's apples to apples is if we're talking about 1st year Tom Brady.

And if you're turning 11 years of Tom Brady down for three 1st year future pro-bowl players at WR, OG, and RB, then I think you're nuts.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:13 pm

Hikohadon wrote:And if you're turning 11 years of Tom Brady down for three 1st year future pro-bowl players at WR, OG, and RB, then I think you're nuts.


I thought I already (effectively) addressed this above with:

"There is one and only one QB in the game today whose age/talent combo would exceed the value of a young pro-bowl WR/OL/RB trio, IMO. Aaron Rodgers."

(If it isn't clear, a young Brady = a young Rodgers, IMO)

peeker643 wrote:But the picks we're interested in keeping or saving are also 'prospects'.


I thought I already addressed this above with:

"But that really isn't the issue. Odds are you'd be getting a mixed bag with those 3 players. You have a shot at three great players, but realistically you're happy with one very good to great player, one good player, and one mediocre player. But when you spread the risk out over three really good prospects, your odds of improving your roster are much higher than when you concentrate all that risk into a single prospect."
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:19 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
peeker643 wrote:But the picks we're interested in keeping or saving are also 'prospects'.


I thought I already addressed this above with:

"But that really isn't the issue. Odds are you'd be getting a mixed bag with those 3 players. You have a shot at three great players, but realistically you're happy with one very good to great player, one good player, and one mediocre player. But when you spread the risk out over three really good prospects, your odds of improving your roster are much higher than when you concentrate all that risk into a single prospect."


Too long, didn't read ;-) ;) :wink:

Sorry, didn't see it. I'm a busy man, ya know?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:32 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:And if you're turning 11 years of Tom Brady down for three 1st year future pro-bowl players at WR, OG, and RB, then I think you're nuts.


I thought I already (effectively) addressed this above with:

"There is one and only one QB in the game today whose age/talent combo would exceed the value of a young pro-bowl WR/OL/RB trio, IMO. Aaron Rodgers."

(If it isn't clear, a young Brady = a young Rodgers, IMO)


So we have the HooDoo equation correct, you're stating:

Young Pro Bowl QB (such as Brady or Rodgers) > Young Pro Bowl WR, RB, and OG.

Good. We're on the same page.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:34 pm

Hikohadon wrote:He said in an interview before the SB that he was a Steelers fan. His dad was a Browns fan, but his aunt was a Steelers fan, and she won most of the bragging rights so he became a Steelers fan.

Typical bandwagon douchebag.


I had a whole mess of kids like that in hs, needless to say, that doesn't surprise me.

My point still stands though. No big FA is walking through Berea until we start winning those games, or have a guy like RG3 under center.
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Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:43 pm

SportsCenter ‏ @SportsCenter Reply Retweeted Favorite · Open
BREAKING NEWS: Rams will trade No. 2 overall pick, according to league sources (via ESPN NFL insider @AdamSchefter)

go fuck yourself dan snyder.
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Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:47 pm

Hikohadon wrote:So we have the HooDoo equation correct, you're stating:

Young Pro Bowl QB (such as Brady or Rodgers) > Young Pro Bowl WR, RB, and OG.

Good. We're on the same page.


On the level of Brady, Rodgers, and Peyton Manning, sure.
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:50 pm

Triple-S wrote:SportsCenter ‏ @SportsCenter Reply Retweeted Favorite · Open
BREAKING NEWS: Rams will trade No. 2 overall pick, according to league sources (via ESPN NFL insider @AdamSchefter)

go fuck yourself dan snyder.


Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Rams will trade No. 2 pick. Only question is where. Chargers once got two 1s, a 3 and a 5 for Eli Manning. Rams likely to get similar deal.


go fuck yourself Jeff Fisher?
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:51 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
Triple-S wrote:SportsCenter ‏ @SportsCenter Reply Retweeted Favorite · Open
BREAKING NEWS: Rams will trade No. 2 overall pick, according to league sources (via ESPN NFL insider @AdamSchefter)

go fuck yourself dan snyder.


Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Rams will trade No. 2 pick. Only question is where. Chargers once got two 1s, a 3 and a 5 for Eli Manning. Rams likely to get similar deal.


go fuck yourself Jeff Fisher?


I just get this uneasy feeling that Heckert and Holmgren are going to pussy out and not make the move.

The two 1sts (4, 22), a 3rd and a 5 would be worth it imo. Throw in next years 2nd, and 4th as well. Tell the skins to back off and focus on manning.

use the 37th to get a RT or a WR.
Last edited by Triple-S on Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:55 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
Triple-S wrote:SportsCenter ‏ @SportsCenter Reply Retweeted Favorite · Open
BREAKING NEWS: Rams will trade No. 2 overall pick, according to league sources (via ESPN NFL insider @AdamSchefter)

go fuck yourself dan snyder.


Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Rams will trade No. 2 pick. Only question is where. Chargers once got two 1s, a 3 and a 5 for Eli Manning. Rams likely to get similar deal.


go fuck yourself Jeff Fisher?


I do that deal tonite before they'd change their mind

We get RG and keep the 2nd and 2 4ths

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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:04 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
Triple-S wrote:SportsCenter ‏ @SportsCenter Reply Retweeted Favorite · Open
BREAKING NEWS: Rams will trade No. 2 overall pick, according to league sources (via ESPN NFL insider @AdamSchefter)

go fuck yourself dan snyder.


Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Rams will trade No. 2 pick. Only question is where. Chargers once got two 1s, a 3 and a 5 for Eli Manning. Rams likely to get similar deal.


go fuck yourself Jeff Fisher?


Are you joking? If you think RG3 is going to bust, fine, I can see that. I dont agree but that an opinion I can understand.

But if you think he's a potential franchise QB, you take that deal in a NY minute, end of story.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:06 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:
Triple-S wrote:SportsCenter ‏ @SportsCenter Reply Retweeted Favorite · Open
BREAKING NEWS: Rams will trade No. 2 overall pick, according to league sources (via ESPN NFL insider @AdamSchefter)

go fuck yourself dan snyder.


Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Rams will trade No. 2 pick. Only question is where. Chargers once got two 1s, a 3 and a 5 for Eli Manning. Rams likely to get similar deal.


go fuck yourself Jeff Fisher?


I do that deal tonite before they'd change their mind

We get RG and keep the 2nd and 2 4ths

JFC, call 911 and get it done


Yep.

And, Jeff, if you act now and sign the dotted line, you'll also get... THIS BRAND NEW COLT MCCOY! (Well, OK, somewhat used)

(Or the equivalent - a 6th round pick.)

But only if you call now!
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:07 pm

NM
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:11 pm

HoodooMan wrote:I thought I already addressed this above with:

"But that really isn't the issue. Odds are you'd be getting a mixed bag with those 3 players. You have a shot at three great players, but realistically you're happy with one very good to great player, one good player, and one mediocre player. But when you spread the risk out over three really good prospects, your odds of improving your roster are much higher than when you concentrate all that risk into a single prospect."


That is one hell of a shaky argument.

Take three draft picks, get a Tackle, a RB and a WR, likely one is very good/great, one is good and one busts.

This is better than an Elite Quarterback Prospect?

I think I'd rather take my shot at landing a very good/great QB than a mixed quality bag of OL/WR/RB.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:31 pm

Schefter is probably full of shit on this getting done at an Eli price, I think.

Unless RG3 picks one team he wants to go to and diffuses any bidding war, that's not happening.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:34 pm

THAT'S WHY HECKERT DRAFTED THE INCREDIBLY AVERAGE PHIL TAYLOR!!! SALESMAN!!!!
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:35 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Schefter is probably full of shit on this getting done at an Eli price, I think.

Unless RG3 picks one team he wants to go to and diffuses any bidding war, that's not happening.


I agree. I think my proposal of both this year's 1's, this year's higher 4, and next year's 2 might not even be enough.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:40 pm

JCoz wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:I thought I already addressed this above with:

"But that really isn't the issue. Odds are you'd be getting a mixed bag with those 3 players. You have a shot at three great players, but realistically you're happy with one very good to great player, one good player, and one mediocre player. But when you spread the risk out over three really good prospects, your odds of improving your roster are much higher than when you concentrate all that risk into a single prospect."


That is one hell of a shaky argument.

Take three draft picks, get a Tackle, a RB and a WR, likely one is very good/great, one is good and one busts.

This is better than an Elite Quarterback Prospect?


At the rate that elite QB prospects bust, absolutely.

Quantify the value of a franchise QB, reduce that by the % chance of actually getting that with a random top QB prospect, do the same for "franchise WR" + "elite OG" + "high 2nd round RB," and compare.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:49 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
JCoz wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:I thought I already addressed this above with:

"But that really isn't the issue. Odds are you'd be getting a mixed bag with those 3 players. You have a shot at three great players, but realistically you're happy with one very good to great player, one good player, and one mediocre player. But when you spread the risk out over three really good prospects, your odds of improving your roster are much higher than when you concentrate all that risk into a single prospect."


That is one hell of a shaky argument.

Take three draft picks, get a Tackle, a RB and a WR, likely one is very good/great, one is good and one busts.

This is better than an Elite Quarterback Prospect?


At the rate that elite QB prospects bust, absolutely.

Quantify the value of a franchise QB, reduce that by the % chance of actually getting that with a random top QB prospect, do the same for "franchise WR" + "elite OG" + "high 2nd round RB," and compare.


No time to even attempt that, but I'd still take my chances that if you did do that the QB value would exceed those three players in that equasion.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:00 pm

Point of reference, what is an elite QB prospect?

In my world Matty Ice was not an elite prospect.

In my world on Cam was last year and he was a really scary one (despite SD believing a JUCO title means he could play in a pro set) I'll always be scared of players playing a single year in a read-option system.

Bradford, meh close.

Stafford, yes.

I mean.... elite QB prospect <> (figure out what that means yet?!) QB drafted high.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:06 pm

http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2012/story/_/id/7622088/2012-nfl-draft-st-louis-rams-decide-trade-no-2-overall-pick-sources-say

Am I reading this wrong or did the Browns not interview RG3?

I would do this deal instantly if that's what they are looking for.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:12 pm

JCoz wrote:http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft2012/story/_/id/7622088/2012-nfl-draft-st-louis-rams-decide-trade-no-2-overall-pick-sources-say

Am I reading this wrong or did the Browns not interview RG3?

I would do this deal instantly if that's what they are looking for.


Again.. Heckert was having heart surgery and they're likely better off just interviewing him at their convenience.

There's no way they DON'T interview him, especially if they don't want him. They'll say they did their due diligence but they're not going to NOT interview the kid.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:15 pm

Again? Must have missed it the first time around, busy day.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:17 pm

JCoz wrote:Again? Must have missed it the first time around, busy day.


Sorry- maybe it's in a different thread or whatever. He had a blockage cleared and wasn't at the Combine. They sent Shurmur (probably to develop his inadequate social skills and establish him as the psuedo-face of the org so Holmgren can relax a bit more) and no GM or upper management.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:21 pm

peeker643 wrote:
JCoz wrote:Again? Must have missed it the first time around, busy day.


Sorry- maybe it's in a different thread or whatever. He had a blockage cleared and wasn't at the Combine. They sent Shurmur (probably to develop his inadequate social skills and establish him as the psuedo-face of the org so Holmgren can relax a bit more) and no GM or upper management.


No biggie, last I heard (and this was before the weekend) I read that it wasn't as big a deal and they would be video conferencing Heckert in for the interviews.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:00 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Sure, there's some business sense in doing whatever it takes to get the flashy prospect all the fans want. You create some excitement that way.

You know what else makes business sense? Continuing to add good football players to your roster and putting together a good football team.


SD:

So who said we have to stop adding talent to the team after we finally nail a QB .

They aren't exclusive from one another , but some of these posts sure infer you can't do one if you do the other.


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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:07 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:And if you're turning 11 years of Tom Brady down for three 1st year future pro-bowl players at WR, OG, and RB, then I think you're nuts.


I thought I already (effectively) addressed this above with:

"There is one and only one QB in the game today whose age/talent combo would exceed the value of a young pro-bowl WR/OL/RB trio, IMO. Aaron Rodgers."

(If it isn't clear, a young Brady = a young Rodgers, IMO)

peeker643 wrote:But the picks we're interested in keeping or saving are also 'prospects'.


I thought I already addressed this above with:

"But that really isn't the issue. Odds are you'd be getting a mixed bag with those 3 players. You have a shot at three great players, but realistically you're happy with one very good to great player, one good player, and one mediocre player. But when you spread the risk out over three really good prospects, your odds of improving your roster are much higher than when you concentrate all that risk into a single prospect."



SD:

weve spread the risk out over a dozen years on 600 different prospects , whats that got .

ask your wife girlfriend or significant other if she'd rather have one 10 karat diamond or a thousand 100 karat shiny cubic zirconiums.

Some things by their self are worth more than bunches of other things

franchise Elite talent at QB which gives you a face of our franchise and the ability to beat the best in the World because you have the best in the World on your side for a change means everything .

that noise your talking means dick .


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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby swerb » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:14 pm

It's really this simple. If you believe, as I do, that Luck and RG3 are two of the best QB prospects to enter the draft since Peyton Manning came into the league, you do whatever the F it takes to move up two spots with Rams, who have already said they are dealing the pick. You got #4 overall. You got two #1's. Two #4's.

This isn't hard. It's a QB driven league. You have two massively elite prospects with very low chances of becoming Ryan Leaf. The pick is there for the taking. You still got free agency and will emerge from any deal with another pick in the top 37, and 2-3 others in the first 5 rounds.

We got too many people overthinking this. Others like Hoodoo that get a hard on for going contrarion and that are convinced any move popular with the fans must be the wrong one.

Not even Bob LaMonte can fuck this one up.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:32 pm

The Rams are dealing, RG3 is there for the taking. For once, the Browns are in the driver's seat and control their own destiny. They want RG3; he's a Brown. They don't; he's not. Simple as that.


I've been driving the do whatever it takes to get RG3 bus since early January. My preference would be to keep 1 out of picks 22, 37, and next year's 1st but if it takes all that, I won't be mad. Get it the fuck done Heckert.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:38 pm

swerb wrote:It's really this simple. If you believe, as I do, that Luck and RG3 are two of the best QB prospects to enter the draft since Peyton Manning came into the league...

...You have two massively elite prospects with very low chances of becoming Ryan Leaf.


That's either dishonest or deluded.

The hit rate for QBs taken with the first two overall picks has been pretty much right at 50% since Elway. You're lying to yourself if you pretend RG3 isn't the same coinflip chance at QB Goodness that his predecessors have been.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:48 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
swerb wrote:It's really this simple. If you believe, as I do, that Luck and RG3 are two of the best QB prospects to enter the draft since Peyton Manning came into the league...

...You have two massively elite prospects with very low chances of becoming Ryan Leaf.


That's either dishonest or deluded.

The hit rate for QBs taken with the first two overall picks has been pretty much right at 50% since Elway. You're lying to yourself if you pretend RG3 isn't the same coinflip chance at QB Goodness that his predecessors have been.



Using that logic you can say the same thing about Andrew Luck. I'd be more willing to bet that Barkley will be the 50% that doesn't work out if the only 2 choices are he and RG3.

Edit: And what's the cutoff for the 50/50 pass/fail rate for QB's? 50% of each in 1 year? 2 years? A decade? 50 years? What says that if Luck succeeds that RG3 has to fail?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:52 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Using that logic you can say the same thing about Andrew Luck.


Most wouldn't, but yeah, I would.

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Edit: And what's the cutoff for the 50/50 pass/fail rate for QB's? 50% of each in 1 year? 2 years? A decade? 50 years?


I have no idea what this means. ETA: Wait, are you really not sure if the last 30 years worth of highly drafted QBs is a sufficient sample size?

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:What says that if Luck succeeds that RG3 has to fail?


Because, when you flip a coin and it turns up heads, it's guaranteed to turn up tails the next flip?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby swerb » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:10 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
swerb wrote:It's really this simple. If you believe, as I do, that Luck and RG3 are two of the best QB prospects to enter the draft since Peyton Manning came into the league...

...You have two massively elite prospects with very low chances of becoming Ryan Leaf.


That's either dishonest or deluded.

The hit rate for QBs taken with the first two overall picks has been pretty much right at 50% since Elway. You're lying to yourself if you pretend RG3 isn't the same coinflip chance at QB Goodness that his predecessors have been.

My take is that my eyes tell me these are two of the best QB prospects to enter the draft in a long time. And that regardless of what your selective stats and projected likelihood of success rates say, if you think Andrew Luck and RG3 have as high a chance of sucking as Ryan Leaf or Alex Smith, you're an effing moron.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:14 pm

THUMB UP
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jerryroche » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:59 pm

Go for it. Whatever it takes.

Geez, even if all the draft choices this year end up sucking the big one, it can't get any worse, can it? The Browns have won exactly 1/3rd of their games since 1995.

Hate to be a fatalist, but I'll be spending every Sunday afternoon during football season at the lakefront or in front of my widescreen whether they go 13-3 this fall or 3-13—and there'll be thousands and thousands more fans all over the country joining me. Lerner knows this. Holmgren knows this.

What have they got to lose by betting the house, wife and kids on RG3?
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:23 am

"e0y2e3"Point of reference, what is an elite QB prospect?

SD74 :

Its like Porn you know it when you see it .

Some is good some is better , and some is the best of the best.

eo>

In my world Matty Ice was not an elite prospect.

SD :

Same category of player as Eli Manning who wasn't an elite prospect in my book at the time despite the hype and the name .

Eli has gone on to develop and he's there now due to his consistent clutch play which can't be denied .

Ice may get there someday , but he's outside the threshold as of now , because he can't saddle up put the reins in his teeth a gun in each hand and get it done .

eo >

In my world on Cam was last year and he was a really scary one (despite SD believing a JUCO title means he could play in a pro set) I'll always be scared of players playing a single year in a read-option system.

SD:

Newton was elite because he had an unmatched skillset never seen in the 100 year history of football and he could pull wins outta his ass by himself while also making others around him better .

The man won Championships at two levels of Collegiate ball in back to back years on two different schools in two different cities running two different systems , and under and during the worst off-field scandal since Bill Clintons blow jobs cost $50 million of taxpayer money .

Mike Vick and Brett Farve are both NFL elites possessing amazing talents, but both suffer from decision making choices which mar their unequaled penchant for tossing the pill.

Brady Montana Unitas Staubach and Steve Young were top tier A list elite and Aaron Rodgers has ascended into their company .

eo>

Bradford, meh close.

Stafford, yes.

I mean.... elite QB prospect <> (figure out what that means yet?!) QB drafted high.

SD:

Barkley aint

Luck and RG3 are .

and there isn't anybody else in this draft fit to tie their shoes.

Tanneyhyde me weeden shit

Foles , don't make me laugh .

Moore has Bernie Kosars anticipation and football acumen , but my sister has a better arm
and she might be taller than him too , he's a left handed colt who can at least throw a spiral and pick up a blitz , but nothing but roster fill .

Wilson is the most NFL ready with his poise and leadership ,
but gives you Seneca Wallace 2.0 he could come in and beat Colt out , but he would hardly be the cream in our division .

Nope you add a Luck , you add an RG3 then you can talk.

You can look Tom Brady and Rottenberger in the eye and make them blink .

RG3 would be the greatest talent to ever line up as a Browns QB since Otto Graham
who won 7 world Championships and came in second three other times in the championship game in 10 years of play .

The most elite of all the elite ...in my book .


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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:29 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Does anyone know if Manningham grew up a Browns or Steelers fan?

Not that it makes a huge difference, but if the team you grew up rooting for is the Browns and they offer you the most money it may take away some of the "I don't want to play for that shit and orange mess" stigma.



Word is from Warren people I talk to his family is a big Sukler family. SD may have better 411 as an old, and I mean old, warren cat.

Word is he's TB bound tho.
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Re: #4, #22, and _________?

Unread postby jb » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:31 am

peeker643 wrote:
JCoz wrote:Again? Must have missed it the first time around, busy day.


Sorry- maybe it's in a different thread or whatever. He had a blockage cleared and wasn't at the Combine. They sent Shurmur (probably to develop his inadequate social skills and establish him as the psuedo-face of the org so Holmgren can relax a bit more) and no GM or upper management.



Read a report Holmgren approached the Rams at the combine and asked about the 2nd pick. Hmmm.....
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