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Money Where Your Mouth Is

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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:59 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
FUDU wrote:BTW Hiko I'm not trying to paint your stance into the corner of extreme.


Didn't think you were.

Besides, every stance I take is the soul of evenhanded objectivity.

:cheers:


Not to mention born out of a wicked and banging hangover. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:22 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
FUDU wrote:BTW Hiko I'm not trying to paint your stance into the corner of extreme.


Didn't think you were.

Besides, every stance I take is the soul of evenhanded objectivity.

:cheers:


While every take I have is born of Irish/German stubbornness, so IOW I'm always right.

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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:47 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:If you can't take the start of the season, a game in the middle of the season and then two recent games and draw the conclusion that Colt sucks you are an idiot.

It's fucking clear as day.


I totaly agree with this

All you need to do is look up the stats and the drive logs, which takes about 5 minutes, and you find the pieces of the puzzle repeat themselves ad nauseum

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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby pup » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:04 am

Time to call the Colts

Give them whatever they want

Draft Andrew Luck, please
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:48 am

pup wrote:Time to call the Colts

Give them whatever they want

Draft Andrew Luck, please


SD:

Pup I give them both of this years number ones and next years number one to move down two spots and call it a day .

Take it or leave it and move on to RG3 .

anything much more than that , and Luck can't help me until year three when i recover from that hysterectomy and can get more ammo to build the roster.


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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby yogi » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:11 am

Luck is my #1 option and I agree with SD and call them with my offer immediately to let them know there is indeed a rich market for that pick and Im interested.

I wouldnt give them a take or leave offer though at this point cause I know that their decision is dependent upon Peyton's health.

If they are interested, I imagine I would have to pany up another 4th or so, but that wouldnt kill the deal if Im that close to Luck.

If we do make that trade, do whatever it takes in FA to make sure I git an OL that will protect the future and a vet WR. Sign our Peyton and lets get busy.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:28 am

13 yds rushing by Okie St and Luck gets outplayed by a statue with a rag arm

All this vs the 105th defense in the Nation

Cough cough ......
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:31 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:13 yds rushing by Okie St and Luck gets outplayed by a statue with a rag arm

All this vs the 105th defense in the Nation

Cough cough ......


SD:

Yeah off with his head , because he can't kick Fg's .
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby pup » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:38 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:13 yds rushing by Okie St and Luck gets outplayed by a statue with a rag arm

All this vs the 105th defense in the Nation

Cough cough ......


You know he threw FOUR incomplete passes in that entire game, correct? For over 11 yards per attempt?

Not sure if you are 100% RG3 Pimp at this point, but Luck was way better vs Okie St than Griffin was. Especially if you back out the 4th quarter stats in a blowout.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:52 am

Okie State and the UW game were RGIII's worst of the year, by far.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:56 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:13 yds rushing by Okie St and Luck gets outplayed by a statue with a rag arm

All this vs the 105th defense in the Nation

Cough cough ......


That's probably the worst take you've ever had. I'm assuming you didn't watch the game.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:02 am

Hikohadon wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:13 yds rushing by Okie St and Luck gets outplayed by a statue with a rag arm

All this vs the 105th defense in the Nation

Cough cough ......


That's probably the worst take you've ever had. I'm assuming you didn't watch the game.


I just like to stir shit up....

:hide: :thumb up:
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby jjgmyers » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:23 am

1st - Blackmon
1st - Kendall Wright (if avaliable)
2nd - Best OT left on the board
3rd - Best LB, DL, DB left on the board
4th - Best LB, DL, DB left on the board
5th - Best LB, DL, DB left on the board
6th - Best LB, DL, DB left on the board
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:09 am

pup wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:13 yds rushing by Okie St and Luck gets outplayed by a statue with a rag arm

All this vs the 105th defense in the Nation

Cough cough ......


You know he threw FOUR incomplete passes in that entire game, correct? For over 11 yards per attempt?

Not sure if you are 100% RG3 Pimp at this point, but Luck was way better vs Okie St than Griffin was. Especially if you back out the 4th quarter stats in a blowout.


I'm all for drafting RG not only for his talent but for the energy he will bring to the organization

I'm not interested in trading our 2nd pick in the 1st unless its for Luck..which is a pipe dream

Indy will not trade this pick and my gut tells me Manning will not be a Colt unless Irsay decides to pay him 28mil just because he loves him and to bring along Luck because yes, I do believe if Manning can play he'll get another yr and his money

I also believe that neither St Loo or Minny will trade out of their spots, neither are interested in RG... and that RG falls into our lap @4

The BS on Lucks game last night was to tease folks of the fact that one minute a QB has to be drafted in the top 4, the next a 7th round pick like Flynn is the cats meow and that peeps' standards are flexable dependent upon one's need to prove a point....

...and by that I mean the criticism of say QBs who play in the Big 12 for example because the Big 12 doesn't play D

You know like the Big 10 did yesterday.....yuk yuk

;-) ;) :wink:

The top of the draft will go IMHO

Luck

Kahil

Claiborne

RG,,,,,,,,, maybe
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:11 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:13 yds rushing by Okie St and Luck gets outplayed by a statue with a rag arm

All this vs the 105th defense in the Nation

Cough cough ......


That's probably the worst take you've ever had. I'm assuming you didn't watch the game.


I just like to stir shit up....

:hide: :thumb up:


Ha! That'll do it. :cheers:

If Irsay does see fit to trade the pick, I think Miami makes the sacrifice. 2012-2014 1st rd picks, 2012-2013 2nd rd picks, and maybe a player.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:59 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Okie State and the UW game were RGIII's worst of the year, by far.


They put up 67 points against UW. It's hard to criticize RGIII for handing the ball off to guys who ran for 300 yards while he also threw for ~300 and I'm not criticizing him for it. I can close my eyes and see his TD pass to beat Oklahoma which was a signature play and throw IMO. It was a thing of beauty.

I'm saying that the eye test tells me Luck is bigger, Luck throws every single ball you could ask for w/o great effort, he threws extremely accurately to any spot on the field, he throws a tighter ball, he can roll either way and deliver a ball downfield, he's bright, he can run well (not just adequately), he is required to read and progress in his offense already and he's simply a better QB prospect.

I'm saying after watching a few games each has played that if I can't get Luck I'm not sure I'm selecting a QB at all and I'm definitely not trading up for anyone other than Luck.

I like RGIII. A lot. But there is a rather wide gap between Luck and RGIII in terms of the position as it stands today.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:10 pm

RGIII has a higher ceiling than luck, by a fairly good margin.

Luck has a higher floor than RGIII, by a fairly good margin.

And again, Luck had his share of shitty games this year. When you are talking about Okie State and UW as RGIII's "bad" game you are talking about an incredible season.

The only real argument I have with you is the assumption RGIII can't make all the throws. Beyond that, we will see. I never saw as "Colt McCoy open" of WRs as you indicate but there is no arguing with the suck of both the French 12 and the PAC defenses.

I don't see as wide a gap as you and the most I trade to move up for anyone is both of this year's firsts.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:16 pm

And yeah, someone, anyone can wake me when being 6'2" led to problems for QBs in this NFL. It's just not a factor anymore.... at all.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:23 pm

Luck is just someone I can't get that excited about.

I'd like to see a breakdown of what % of that offense consists of running plays & passes less than 10 yards downfield. It wouldn't surprise me if it was 90-95%.

I get that that's making the most of what they have on hand at Stanford, but it still seems to me that what you're drafting is a game manager. An extremely efficient, smart, and poised...game manager. Could he be much more than that in an offense without such a good offensive line & running game, one that consistently demands more of him as a passer? Maybe, I guess? I don't feel as comfortable with that projection as most, apparently.

But no doubt, he has the highest floor of any QB prospect since Brady Quinn!

Though, he's a safe enough QB prospect that I'd still reluctantly take him over any prospect in this draft...other than RG3. I just wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he ends up as more of a fringe Top 10 NFL QB, like a Matt Ryan. Or much worse, once taken out of that comfort zone.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:28 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:And yeah, someone, anyone can wake me when being 6'2" led to problems for QBs in this NFL. It's just not a factor anymore.... at all.


As I mentioned somewhere, RGIII doesn't get a lot of balls knocked down in his offense. If that's because he does a good job throwing through lanes, that's great. If it's because his linemen dominate inferior competition, that's still a concern.

I know 6'2" is a far lesser concern when you're 6'4" or 6'5".

I also see that Luck just throws the ball more effortlessly all over the field than RGIII and one of the common 'Needs Improvement' critiques of RGIII is that his motion can get a bit long. Those split seconds are far more precious in the NFL.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:32 pm

I'm not so sure Luck had a shitty game at all this year. A loss & some INTs in a box score can give that impression though. I do know for a fact he had 2 games in which he had passes picked in seemingly big spots that were not on him what so ever. IMO people get too caught up in his lack of numbers for being labeled God II, Stanford runs the ball first that has more to do with it than anything.

I think with Luck more than anyone else you know exactly what you're getting (a guy with more than enough arm, a guy with enough athleticism and a guy with an extremely accomplished mind at his level), to make certain assumptions. As to whether he ever becomes the GOAT or better than X will probably have as much to do with what's around him and his coach in the NFL.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:52 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:RGIII has a higher ceiling than luck, by a fairly good margin.

Luck has a higher floor than RGIII, by a fairly good margin.


An excellent point which many fail to grasp.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:00 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:And yeah, someone, anyone can wake me when being 6'2" led to problems for QBs in this NFL. It's just not a factor anymore.... at all.


Thanks e0

Sincerely,

Matt Flynn

Everyone's favorite 7th round draft pick

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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:03 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:RGIII has a higher ceiling than luck, by a fairly good margin.

Luck has a higher floor than RGIII, by a fairly good margin.


An excellent point which many fail to grasp.


I don't think the margin is that large in either area, but I agree in principle.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:08 pm

jjgmyers wrote:1st - Blackmon
1st - Kendall Wright (if avaliable)
2nd - Best OT left on the board
3rd - Best LB, DL, DB left on the board
4th - Best LB, DL, DB left on the board
5th - Best LB, DL, DB left on the board
6th - Best LB, DL, DB left on the board


2 WR's in the first round. Does Little play #2 or #3 in that scenario?

Register my vote as Hell No on this one.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:12 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Luck is just someone I can't get that excited about.


Ahhhh, you see something to make you hesitate, too

I like his size for the NFL but, if the game is changing like some suggest, then RG is the guy

I don't think Flynn would have any interest in comming to C-Town cuz the first thing he'll want to know is who he's going to throw to...Cribbs and Slow Mass? :bag:

Snyder will pay more and the Skins have a perceived, cough gag cough, offensive genius for a HC and more stability

...and why aren't Luck and RG being vetted for playing their careers in sunshine and fair weather?

Its certainly been a factor for many a Browns fan before Luck and RG, eh?
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:16 pm

Well, I don't know what to think about the ceilings. I do know that Andrew Luck is a locked-in and consensus number 1 pick and has been for pretty much two years. There is absolutely nothing (in my opinion) that's going to change that between now and April.

On the other hand, I can see RGIII's fortunes rising and falling some between now and then (or falling and rising). And I do think that means something in terms of how people view them today.

If Luck is that generational QB that people have said he is, and he performs at that expected level in the NFL, I'm not sure how different the ceilings for the two players can possibly be.

If each reaches their ceiling I'd be thrilled to have either. And with Luck's 'floor' being higher, well, I think that's what motivates me.

I don't see Luck being a bust at the next level at all. Not that I think RGIII will be, and I do see him as potentially far more dynamic, but there is an element of risk with RGIII that's not there w/Luck IMO.

I give up my 2 firsts and my 2nd for Luck. I take RGIII if he's there with my 4th.

Y'all may be right. All RGIII has to do is declare and we'll be set to find out.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:16 pm

What people forget about Andrew Luck is that he didn't have a star receiver like Kendall Wright to stretch the field for him and be a deep threat. Stanford's a possession offense, so they had a bunch of possession receivers.

You could see it yesterday. When Stanford did stretch the field, save for the TD pass, Luck was often forced to throw to an underneath route. Stanford's receivers aren't speedy nor are they adept at creating separation.

When you see a player like Luck who doesn't force throws but makes the right read, you have to like that. He gets it. He doesn't press for the home run ball when it's not there. He gets the ball out quickly and accurately.

It's probably a matter of personal preference. Not to mention, the RG3 love is directly correlated to how Cam Newton's done this year. If Newton flopped like all the other mobile QBs with questionable skills like reading a defense and throwing accurately, people wouldn't have as big of a hard-on for RG3.

For me, I take Luck every day over RG3. But, as Peeker likes to say, YMMV.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:18 pm

Let me reiterate I want nothing to do with Matt Flynn. Which means your starting QB for the 2012 Browns will be Matt Flynn.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:18 pm

skatingtripods wrote:It's probably a matter of personal preference. Not to mention, the RG3 love is directly correlated to how Cam Newton's done this year. If Newton flopped like all the other mobile QBs with questionable skills like reading a defense and throwing accurately, people wouldn't have as big of a hard-on for RG3.


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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:24 pm

Mechanics/Release

Luck has a compact, over-the-top release. Does a good job of “crushing pebbles” with his feet while he stands in the pocket scanning the field. Mechanically, he’s very sound, although he does get inconsistent from time to time with his footwork. Will occasionally get in the habit of kickstepping instead of crossing over on his straight dropbacks, and has a strange gather step out of shotgun. Major tendency to raise his back foot upon release – this has more of an effect on his velocity and ball placement than anything.

Mobility

Strong, rugged, and tough runner. Excellent footwork in the play-action game, and can run bootleg effectively to the left and right. Has the awareness to scramble vertically when he recognizes man coverage and horizontally to stretch the defense when they’re in zone. Stanford uses his mobility as the foundation of their play-action passing game.

Arm Strength

Doesn’t have a howitzer but can make all the throws. Shows the ability to crease the ball into tight windows against man coverage, as well as the ability to throw receivers open. Throws with above-average velocity on the run. Poor weight transfer at times results in too many all-arm throws where he loses RPMs on the ball. Displays a good overall understanding of when to crease a throw or when to put touch on the ball.

Decision Making and Intangibles

Two things really stick out with Luck, and they’re what make him such an elite and unique prospect. The first is that he displays an innate feel for pressure in the pocket. He can feel where it’s coming from and make subtle moves in a muddied pocket to buy himself the time for a receiver to get open – all while keeping his eye level downfield.

The second thing is that he’s one of the rare college quarterbacks that’s been taught to make decisions based off of reading coverages, as opposed to going through a pre-determined receiver progression. He also understands how to manipulate the second and third level defenders with his eyes and feet to open up throwing lanes downfield. Will stare down the gun-barrel to make throws under pressure, although he showed some flinching in the pocket and anticipation of pressure against Oregon this year.

The only real complaint I have with him is that he needs to learn that it’s okay to live to see another down. He’ll take a sack or throw blind into coverage on occasion, instead of just throwing it away.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:28 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:Luck is just someone I can't get that excited about.


Ahhhh, you see something to make you hesitate, too

I like his size for the NFL but, if the game is changing like some suggest, then RG is the guy


How is the game supposedly changing to where Luck still wouldn't be the ideal QB or even QB prospect?
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:36 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:RGIII has a higher ceiling than luck, by a fairly good margin.

Luck has a higher floor than RGIII, by a fairly good margin.


An excellent point which many fail to grasp.


I don't think the margin is that large in either area, but I agree in principle.


Agree. I was refering (and was not very clear) to the overall concept of floor and ceiling. It's often overlookedas but it helps to understand why some teams make the moves they do and how they might try and reduce risk by taking the "safer" pick - i.e. the selection with the higher floor.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:41 pm

How many times has the first drafted QB been the best QB of his class?

Since The Return:

99: Couch (McNabb, Culpepper, Brooks all better)
00: Pennington (Brady's better...Bulger's close)
01: Vick (Brees)
02: Carr (Garrard's clearly better, other's involve parsing degrees of suck)
03: Palmer (<--best QB in his class)
04: Manning (Roethlisberger & Rivers both better, IMO. Schaub might be too.)
05: Smith (Rodgers clearly, and I think you can make a case for all of Campbell, Orton, Cassel, and Fitzpatrick)
06: Young (Cutler and maybe even Tavaris Jackson...oh how I manloved you, VY!)
07: Russell (Probably all of them, but in a group with Kolb & Edwards as standouts that isn't saying much)

I'd say all of 08, 09, 10, & 11 are too soon to tell for sure, but that:

-Flacco & Flynn(!!!) both have a shot to establish themselves as better than Ryan
-Things are looking good for Stafford, but Freeman might still have a chance.
-'10 looks to me like a 07-like year of All-Around Awful.
-Good start for Cam, who knows.

(No, there wasn't really a point to this. I was just curious.)
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:48 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:RGIII has a higher ceiling than luck, by a fairly good margin.

Luck has a higher floor than RGIII, by a fairly good margin.


An excellent point which many fail to grasp.


I don't think the margin is that large in either area, but I agree in principle.


Agree. I was refering (and was not very clear) to the overall concept of floor and ceiling. It's often overlookedas but it helps to understand why some teams make the moves they do and how they might try and reduce risk by taking the "safer" pick - i.e. the selection with the higher floor.


And I think the career of someone like Brady Quinn should teach us that this concept is best forgotten. There's no such thing as a floor high enough that you're content when your player hits it.

Not that risk should be thrown out altogether; just the idea that any prospect is so safe, upside be damned, you can't go wrong. Take the guy with the best chance to be really good; not the guy with the least chance to be god awful.
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:50 pm

HoodooMan wrote:04: Manning (Roethlisberger & Rivers both better, IMO. Schaub might be too.)


Methinks you have something against the Eli. POS... yeah, maybe you can argue he has 2 rings to Eli's 1 (although that first ring had little to do with POS), but Rivers... too not-clutch.

At the very least, I'd call it a 3 way tie.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:54 pm

Eli's an average to above average NFL QB.

I suspect if Rodney Harrison knocks that ball out of David Tyree's hands, no one disagrees.

ETA: PFW ranked him 12th among NFL QBs going into the year. That's probably about right, IMO.
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:09 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Eli's an average to above average NFL QB.

I suspect if Rodney Harrison knocks that ball out of David Tyree's hands, no one disagrees.

ETA: PFW ranked him 12th among NFL QBs going into the year. That's probably about right, IMO.


If if if...

Brees, Peyton, Brady, Rodgers... those are the only QB's I think are clearly better than Eli.

But we're splitting hairs. You don't like him as much as I do. Que sera sera.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:11 pm

HoodooMan wrote:And I think the career of someone like Brady Quinn should teach us that this concept is best forgotten. There's no such thing as a floor high enough that you're content when your player hits it.

Not that risk should be thrown out altogether; just the idea that any prospect is so safe, upside be damned, you can't go wrong. Take the guy with the best chance to be really good; not the guy with the least chance to be god awful.


And Quinn had serious issues, thus the fall in draft status.

Accuracy, arm strength, etc.

IMO, the high floor for Quinn was more built up by Browns fans and ESPN talking heads than anyhting.

Your Luck to Matty Ryan comp is far more viable here.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:13 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Eli's an average to above average NFL QB.

I suspect if Rodney Harrison knocks that ball out of David Tyree's hands, no one disagrees.

ETA: PFW ranked him 12th among NFL QBs going into the year. That's probably about right, IMO.



Meh, Eli had his best season this year.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:16 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:Eli's an average to above average NFL QB.

I suspect if Rodney Harrison knocks that ball out of David Tyree's hands, no one disagrees.

ETA: PFW ranked him 12th among NFL QBs going into the year. That's probably about right, IMO.



Meh, Eli had his best season this year.


Isn't the present when we're discussing this?

I might've had Eli about 12 before the season, but I was referring to now.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:17 pm

And are you the DooDoo that cited PFW's preseason ranking? I'm agreeing with you Hiko.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:26 pm

I'm too stubborn to change my opinion so dramatically based on one year. Eli can stick his 2nd good year in his ass.

If I had my pick of QBs for next season and next season alone, I'd probably go:

1. Rodgers
2. Brady
3. Brees
4. P Manning?
5. Roethlisberger (spit)
6. Rivers
7. Newton???
8. Vick (double spit)
9. Stafford?
10. Ryan?
11. Schaub?
12-14. E Manning/Romo/Cutler (<--triple coin flip)
15. Freeman?
16. Flacco
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:28 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:Eli's an average to above average NFL QB.

I suspect if Rodney Harrison knocks that ball out of David Tyree's hands, no one disagrees.

ETA: PFW ranked him 12th among NFL QBs going into the year. That's probably about right, IMO.



Meh, Eli had his best season this year.


Yeah but isn't he only 6' 2" and 190 dripping wet?

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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:36 pm

HoodooMan wrote:How many times has the first drafted QB been the best QB of his class?

Since The Return:

99: Couch (McNabb, Culpepper, Brooks all better)
00: Pennington (Brady's better...Bulger's close)
01: Vick (Brees)
02: Carr (Garrard's clearly better, other's involve parsing degrees of suck)
03: Palmer (<--best QB in his class)
04: Manning (Roethlisberger & Rivers both better, IMO. Schaub might be too.)
05: Smith (Rodgers clearly, and I think you can make a case for all of Campbell, Orton, Cassel, and Fitzpatrick)
06: Young (Cutler and maybe even Tavaris Jackson...oh how I manloved you, VY!)
07: Russell (Probably all of them, but in a group with Kolb & Edwards as standouts that isn't saying much)

I'd say all of 08, 09, 10, & 11 are too soon to tell for sure, but that:

-Flacco & Flynn(!!!) both have a shot to establish themselves as better than Ryan
-Things are looking good for Stafford, but Freeman might still have a chance.
-'10 looks to me like a 07-like year of All-Around Awful.
-Good start for Cam, who knows.

(No, there wasn't really a point to this. I was just curious.)


I'd say that you should have a much bigger sample size, and that even though it is too early to know for sure, there looks like a very, very good chance that 3 of the last 4 are best in class, I'm not sure how many of those earlier guys you pointed at ever looked like Ryan, Stafford and Newton at some point.
Last edited by JCoz on Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:38 pm

FUDU wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:Luck is just someone I can't get that excited about.


Ahhhh, you see something to make you hesitate, too

I like his size for the NFL but, if the game is changing like some suggest, then RG is the guy


How is the game supposedly changing to where Luck still wouldn't be the ideal QB or even QB prospect?


Not my suggestion...just a little rub of what I've been hearing and reading overall...that the next generation NFL QB has to have some serious wheels....[harumph]

In any event, the Colts would be insane to trade the pick and the talk for Luck is wasted breath and bandwidth. I'd bet your house on it...

Manning will get his 28 mil and Luck will willingly sit behind him for a yr or two to learn the game doing spot duty for the supposed GOAT

Its a perfect scenerio for all involved. Manning retires a Colt and gets cred for turoring Luck and the 28 mil is worth every freaking penny
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:38 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:And are you the DooDoo that cited PFW's preseason ranking? I'm agreeing with you Hiko.


I was thrown by your meh.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:38 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:Eli's an average to above average NFL QB.

I suspect if Rodney Harrison knocks that ball out of David Tyree's hands, no one disagrees.

ETA: PFW ranked him 12th among NFL QBs going into the year. That's probably about right, IMO.



Meh, Eli had his best season this year.


Didn't everyone? Nevermind, thats beside the point
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:46 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
FUDU wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:Luck is just someone I can't get that excited about.


Ahhhh, you see something to make you hesitate, too

I like his size for the NFL but, if the game is changing like some suggest, then RG is the guy


How is the game supposedly changing to where Luck still wouldn't be the ideal QB or even QB prospect?


Not my suggestion...just a little rub of what I've been hearing and reading overall...that the next generation NFL QB has to have some serious wheels....[harumph]

In any event, the Colts would be insane to trade the pick and the talk for Luck is wasted breath and bandwidth. I'd bet your house on it...

Manning will get his 28 mil and Luck will willingly sit behind him for a yr or two to learn the game doing spot duty for the supposed GOAT

Its a perfect scenerio for all involved. Manning retires a Colt and gets cred for turoring Luck and the 28 mil is worth every freaking penny


1970 called and said we'll be out of oil by 1990 & Social Security will be dried up before the Boomers become grand parents.

18, Brees, Brady & even Eli have something in common besides a ring...

Bernie Kosar types probably don't survive in today's NFL but a QB only needs enough athleticism to extend plays while keeping his head up field to hit a big pass if need be.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby HoodooMan » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:07 pm

JCoz wrote:I'd say that you should have a much bigger sample size...


STR generally makes for a nice cutoff for me, but...

98: Manning (clearly the best in his class)
97: Druckenmiller (Plummer was better)
96: Tony Banks (Other QBs drafted that year: Bobby Hoying!, Jeff Lewis, Danny Kanell, Jon Stark, Kyle Wachholtz--you tell me)
95: McNair (clearly the best in his class)
94: Shuler (God awful year, I guess Frerotte or Dilfer would qualify as "best")
93: Bledsoe (Maybe Bledsoe...Brunell & Green are pretty close, if not right there with him)
92: Klingler (Another really bad year. Jeff Blake, Brad Johnson, and Tawmy Gun probably fared best.)
91: McGwire (Favre, fra and away)
90: George (Neil O'Donnell probably, I guess?)
89: Aikman (clearly the best in his class)
88: Chandler (he & Humphries are the only two I remember, so why not)
87: Testaverde (I don't know, he clearly outlasted everyone else, but he was never as good as Gannon was at his best)
86: Everett (Probably between him & Rypien?)
85: Cunningham (I loved Randall, so I'll say him. But Supplemental Bernie too!)
84: Esiason (looks like Young was a Supp pick this year?)
83: Elway (I think Elway's The QB GOAT, but I'm sure some would argue for Marino.)

^As far back as I could possibly go.
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