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Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:17 am

Offensive Lines that I can think of off the top of my head that I feel are clearly worse than Cleveland's: Chicago and Pittsburgh

QB's that play behind those Offensive Lines that get the job done despite the pressure: Jay Cutler and POS

Caleb Hanie is the proof of how important QB play can be.

With Peyton Manning, the Colts are probably 8-4 or 7-5. Without him, they're 0-12 and the Receivers seem old and slow and the line looks porous.

If you have imperfect talent around the QB, that makes good play from the QB even MORE important, not a crutch to give a meh QB another year.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:27 am

Be shocked if a high pick is used on a QB next season.

I know you need one.

I'm telling you I just don't think they're taking one as they're not sold the guy they have isn't the answer.

Just telling you that I think McCoy is that bridge mentioned above.

It's an opinion based on his performance, weaknesses everywhere else and Heckert stating McCoy would be the starting QB next season when asked a few weeks back.

Not going any deeper than that, I just don't think they're taking a a QB with those 1st round picks.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:32 am

rbm0183 wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
rbm0183 wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
rbm0183 wrote:I find it so hard to lay blame on McCoy. :tool:



SD:

Why is he immune from criticism when throwing picks in the endzone , which effectively net a 14 point turnaround , we lose 7 while they score seven .

Is he immune from criticism for those little powder puff throws ,people mistake as passes .

Or is just because your a groupie and think he's a hot cutey pie.


Souldawg


You know what, you're right. I really should have given some explanation for that statement in the rest of my post.

Wait, what? I did?

rbm0183 wrote: Look at the protection. Look at the receivers. That next-to-last drive was blown up on 2nd down, when he took the snap, dropped back 2 steps and looked up at 3 Steelers who had just blown right through and were about to kill him. On the 3rd down play he tries to give Mo a chance to make a play on the ball and the guy doesn't even leave his feet, instead watching the CB play the ball for the INT. Greg Little drops the ball when they finally let Colt throw beyond the marker on a 3rd and 6 earlier in the game. Meanwhile, I saw Colt make some NFL throws when finally given the opportunity, hitting a couple of downfield passes and getting the ball into some tight windows...all the while continuing to take his normal thrashing. I'm sorry, but by surrounding Colt with this supporting cast and then saddling him with Shurmur's "offense" it is the equivalent equivalent of tossing him into a lake of poop and asking him to come out smelling like a rose. It just ain't going to happen.


So I guess you just wanted to express your dislike of Colt McCoy, then? Wow, didn't see that coming. :dead:

Too bad we don't have your boy, Sanchez. He would never throw a pivotal interception.


SD:

I already told Ya Colt can't be blamed for throwing picks , whenever you see one , its standard policy to lament his oline protection and or blame it on the receievers , so in that respect Colt is all things perfect , and is an infinitely better choice to be playing QB with or without a concussion or no matter how bad he stinks in the clutch when your QB has to make plays .

Never mind Raping piece of Shit outclassed him on one leg , imagine that a guy who can throw his receivers open down field with accuracy and velocity and location on demand .

Shit and grape sodas , we don't need nobody who can play like that , let alone beat teams in the clutch ....

Tossing pointless picks and ruining scoring drives and continuing this, The never ending suck is sooooooooooooo much better and sooooooooooooooooo much more comforting .

Hell if we got somebody who could actually , play I might have real expectations we might win one of thee Soupie Bowls sometime before I die ,pity me for focussing on whats real important .

Yu are now free to go back to your chants and Colt worship , excuses our us soon to be preached in full living mind numbing bullshit by FMB and others .



SoulDawg


At the risk of poisoning you with coherence and correct grammar, I'll post one more response to your drivel.

Colt isn't perfect. He isn't as good as Ben Roethlisberger. He can't win games by himself. As I said, if the Browns conclude that they need another QB then I'm fine with it. I just don't think anyone was going to be successful behind this o-line, with thsee receivers, running this archaic and predictable offense.

Should a concussed Colt have been sent back in for Wallace on the crucial drive? No way...but that's a separate issue related to coaching (outside of the fact that it further set McCoy up to fail).

I don't have any personal investment in Colt McCoy. I'm not even thinking he's "the guy." His arm strength is a huge limitation, and his decision making has been discouraging. So take your crap about chanting and worshipping away from here. I am just not convinced that this season gave us a truly fair read on the scope of his ability.

I just want this team to win. Unlike you, I'm not convinced that every big-armed QB who enters the draft is the next coming. I just hope that they give the next guy a better chance to succeed than they gave Colt.
:cheers:


SD:

look man , i ain't mad at ya , I tend to offer hard core analysis in the midst of those who like to play cheerleader when it comes to the Browns , and it doesn't go down smooth with kids in their fantasy mode who just want to believe , never mind the facts and the picture shown to them by their own lying eyes.

FMB is just a screwball , who can't help himself , he means well and he luvs the team , but he thinks as a child and believes in fantasy tooth fairy scenarios , that in todays day and age a team can draft and aquire enough talent to be the 72 Dulphins , and then we can go find a QB .

Its insanity I know , but give him his little dreams never mind coughing from all that Crack pipe smoke .

You want to win , this is how it begins .

You have to take a hard look at all roster positions and start with QB , not excluse him and excuse him because you have problems elsewhere.

Its that simple it ain't personal , but its a fact of life.

Our guy ain't good enough , even with eleven All satrs his play is shyte , because he can't do the fundamental thing required of an NFL QB .

Throw the fucking football , on time on station on demand,
which by default automatically mandates its imperative you find someone who can ASAP .

It doesn't stop you from buying lace curtains for the rest of the house , but when you ain't got a QB its tantamount to a leaking roof , there is no greater priority than addressing that position with any and all resources required until you get it fixed.

When your QB on two legs is outclassed by a raping Piece of shit on one leg , your roof ain't just leaking its been blown off and strewn around the neighborhood and it just don't need patched it needs replaced.

Period end of story ...next case.


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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby rbm0183 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:36 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Offensive Lines that I can think of off the top of my head that I feel are clearly worse than Cleveland's: Chicago and Pittsburgh

QB's that play behind those Offensive Lines that get the job done despite the pressure: Jay Cutler and POS

Caleb Hanie is the proof of how important QB play can be.

With Peyton Manning, the Colts are probably 8-4 or 7-5. Without him, they're 0-12 and the Receivers seem old and slow and the line looks porous.

If you have imperfect talent around the QB, that makes good play from the QB even MORE important, not a crutch to give a meh QB another year.


Fair enough. The Bears and Steelers may very well have worse offensive lines than the Browns. But they also have assets that the Browns do not have in the form of legitimate coaching staffs who have the ability to devise an NFL game plan (Martz and Arians), and playmakers (Forte, Wallace, Antonio Brown...heck even Johnny Knox would be an upgrade over the crap the Browns are running out at WR).

The Colts are a very unique situation. Unquestionably Peyton Manning's play is that much of a swing factor, but not only because of his talent representing a 7 or 8 win upgrade over their other QBs. Their offense was entirely predicated on his one-in-a-million ability to dissect a defense and attack its weaknesses, and when they lost him they did not have the ability (or perhaps just the foresight) to execute a back-up plan.

All of this isn't to say that Colt is a good QB who can win a Super Bowl. It just says that to make the comparison between this situation to those ones based purely on one aspect, be it bad o-line play or the impact of losing a transcendent QB who also basically serves as his teams OC, and acting as if it is an apples-to-apples comparison is not really very convincing.
Last edited by rbm0183 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby rbm0183 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:55 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:
rbm0183 wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
rbm0183 wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
rbm0183 wrote:I find it so hard to lay blame on McCoy. :tool:



SD:

Why is he immune from criticism when throwing picks in the endzone , which effectively net a 14 point turnaround , we lose 7 while they score seven .

Is he immune from criticism for those little powder puff throws ,people mistake as passes .

Or is just because your a groupie and think he's a hot cutey pie.


Souldawg


You know what, you're right. I really should have given some explanation for that statement in the rest of my post.

Wait, what? I did?

rbm0183 wrote: Look at the protection. Look at the receivers. That next-to-last drive was blown up on 2nd down, when he took the snap, dropped back 2 steps and looked up at 3 Steelers who had just blown right through and were about to kill him. On the 3rd down play he tries to give Mo a chance to make a play on the ball and the guy doesn't even leave his feet, instead watching the CB play the ball for the INT. Greg Little drops the ball when they finally let Colt throw beyond the marker on a 3rd and 6 earlier in the game. Meanwhile, I saw Colt make some NFL throws when finally given the opportunity, hitting a couple of downfield passes and getting the ball into some tight windows...all the while continuing to take his normal thrashing. I'm sorry, but by surrounding Colt with this supporting cast and then saddling him with Shurmur's "offense" it is the equivalent equivalent of tossing him into a lake of poop and asking him to come out smelling like a rose. It just ain't going to happen.


So I guess you just wanted to express your dislike of Colt McCoy, then? Wow, didn't see that coming. :dead:

Too bad we don't have your boy, Sanchez. He would never throw a pivotal interception.


SD:

I already told Ya Colt can't be blamed for throwing picks , whenever you see one , its standard policy to lament his oline protection and or blame it on the receievers , so in that respect Colt is all things perfect , and is an infinitely better choice to be playing QB with or without a concussion or no matter how bad he stinks in the clutch when your QB has to make plays .

Never mind Raping piece of Shit outclassed him on one leg , imagine that a guy who can throw his receivers open down field with accuracy and velocity and location on demand .

Shit and grape sodas , we don't need nobody who can play like that , let alone beat teams in the clutch ....

Tossing pointless picks and ruining scoring drives and continuing this, The never ending suck is sooooooooooooo much better and sooooooooooooooooo much more comforting .

Hell if we got somebody who could actually , play I might have real expectations we might win one of thee Soupie Bowls sometime before I die ,pity me for focussing on whats real important .

Yu are now free to go back to your chants and Colt worship , excuses our us soon to be preached in full living mind numbing bullshit by FMB and others .



SoulDawg


At the risk of poisoning you with coherence and correct grammar, I'll post one more response to your drivel.

Colt isn't perfect. He isn't as good as Ben Roethlisberger. He can't win games by himself. As I said, if the Browns conclude that they need another QB then I'm fine with it. I just don't think anyone was going to be successful behind this o-line, with thsee receivers, running this archaic and predictable offense.

Should a concussed Colt have been sent back in for Wallace on the crucial drive? No way...but that's a separate issue related to coaching (outside of the fact that it further set McCoy up to fail).

I don't have any personal investment in Colt McCoy. I'm not even thinking he's "the guy." His arm strength is a huge limitation, and his decision making has been discouraging. So take your crap about chanting and worshipping away from here. I am just not convinced that this season gave us a truly fair read on the scope of his ability.

I just want this team to win. Unlike you, I'm not convinced that every big-armed QB who enters the draft is the next coming. I just hope that they give the next guy a better chance to succeed than they gave Colt.
:cheers:


SD:

look man , i ain't mad at ya , I tend to offer hard core analysis in the midst of those who like to play cheerleader when it comes to the Browns , and it doesn't go down smooth with kids in their fantasy mode who just want to believe , never mind the facts and the picture shown to them by their own lying eyes.

FMB is just a screwball , who can't help himself , he means well and he luvs the team , but he thinks as a child and believes in fantasy tooth fairy scenarios , that in todays day and age a team can draft and aquire enough talent to be the 72 Dulphins , and then we can go find a QB .

Its insanity I know , but give him his little dreams never mind coughing from all that Crack pipe smoke .

You want to win , this is how it begins .

You have to take a hard look at all roster positions and start with QB , not excluse him and excuse him because you have problems elsewhere.

Its that simple it ain't personal , but its a fact of life.

Our guy ain't good enough , even with eleven All satrs his play is shyte , because he can't do the fundamental thing required of an NFL QB .

Throw the fucking football , on time on station on demand,
which by default automatically mandates its imperative you find someone who can ASAP .

It doesn't stop you from buying lace curtains for the rest of the house , but when you ain't got a QB its tantamount to a leaking roof , there is no greater priority than addressing that position with any and all resources required until you get it fixed.

When your QB on two legs is outclassed by a raping Piece of shit on one leg , your roof ain't just leaking its been blown off and strewn around the neighborhood and it just don't need patched it needs replaced.

Period end of story ...next case.


SoulDawg


I understand what you're saying. I really do. You look at the house and you see a roof problem above all else.

I'm just saying that when I look I can see the water damage. But I'm not sure that the majority of it isn't coming from the leaky toilet and the tub that's clogged up and overflowing. I wonder if we can't fix the internal problems (get a coach who knows how to devise an offense, add a right tackle and one or two playmakers), and then do a little repair on the roof (continue to coach up Colt) and see how the house looks then. It's hard for me to judge how bad the roof is leaking when everything else is leaking too.

If we replace the roof and then we're back here two years from now still looking at the ceiling caving in from water damage, everyone is probably going to be ready to blame the roof again. I don't care who we draft - no one is winning anything as long as Shurmur's taking his plays from West Coast Offense for Dummies.

I'm not convinced Colt is the guy and the roof doesn't need replaced...in fact, at this point I'm probably leaning towards no he isn't the guy and we need another QB...but there's no way I can say that I'm 100% convinced that he can't win in this league if he's given some tools to work with.
---"It was great training being there. They do it with character and intelligence. They run that organization the right way. They build through the draft. They're patient. It's just the right way to do it. It was a tremendous opportunity to be with them." Jimmy Haslam on why he'd model the Browns after the Steelers, 10/16/12
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:25 pm

rbm0183 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Offensive Lines that I can think of off the top of my head that I feel are clearly worse than Cleveland's: Chicago and Pittsburgh

QB's that play behind those Offensive Lines that get the job done despite the pressure: Jay Cutler and POS

Caleb Hanie is the proof of how important QB play can be.

With Peyton Manning, the Colts are probably 8-4 or 7-5. Without him, they're 0-12 and the Receivers seem old and slow and the line looks porous.

If you have imperfect talent around the QB, that makes good play from the QB even MORE important, not a crutch to give a meh QB another year.


Fair enough. The Bears and Steelers may very well have worse offensive lines than the Browns. But they also have assets that the Browns do not have in the form of legitimate coaching staffs who have the ability to devise an NFL game plan (Martz and Arians), and playmakers (Forte, Wallace, Antonio Brown...heck even Johnny Knox would be an upgrade over the crap the Browns are running out at WR).

The Colts are a very unique situation. Unquestionably Peyton Manning's play is that much of a swing factor, but not only because of his talent representing a 7 or 8 win upgrade over their other QBs. Their offense was entirely predicated on his one-in-a-million ability to dissect a defense and attack its weaknesses, and when they lost him they did not have the ability (or perhaps just the foresight) to execute a back-up plan.

All of this isn't to say that Colt is a good QB who can win a Super Bowl. It just says that to make the comparison between this situation to those ones based purely on one aspect, be it bad o-line play or the impact of losing a transcendent QB who also basically serves as his teams OC, and acting as if it is an apples-to-apples comparison is not really very convincing.


Which is easier to do: 1) Change the RT AND the RG AND the WR's AND the RB AND the entire coaching staff... all for the opportunity to see if Colt can be a franchise guy, or 2) try and draft a true elite QB?

Especially when you probably need an elite QB to win a SB even if you change the RT and the RG and the WR's and the RB and the coaching staff.

And if you don't even really believe that Colt can win a SB, then why are we even having this discussion?

I like the kid too, but my wishes that he WOULD be the guy don't mean he CAN be the guy. It's not really fair to him, but that's just the way life goes.

If you took QB out of the equation, which team has the best roster in the NFL? (Green Bay, New England, Houston, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans?).

Put Colt McCoy at QB on that team as their starter. Do you think they have a realistic shot to win a Super Bowl now?

If you answer is Yes, then you just see a lot more in him than I do and we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Watt » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:32 pm

Colt McCoy's father said Friday that the Browns QB doesn't remember anything after James Harrison's helmet-to-helmet hit Thursday night, and never should have been allowed back in the game.

"I talked to Colt this morning and he said, 'Dad, I don't know what happened, but I know I lost the game. I know I let the team (down). What happened? ... He was basically out (cold) after the hit ... He was nauseated and he didn't know who he was. From what I could see, they didn't test him for a concussion on the sidelines." As we suspected, the Browns are going to land in hot water for this one. McCoy should never have been rushed back into the game.

from rotoworld

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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:45 pm

Fireable offense, IMO.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:50 pm

A damn fine excuse to get rid of this mornic asswipe of a coach
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Lubber » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:52 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Offensive Lines that I can think of off the top of my head that I feel are clearly worse than Cleveland's: Chicago and Pittsburgh

QB's that play behind those Offensive Lines that get the job done despite the pressure: Jay Cutler and POS

Caleb Hanie is the proof of how important QB play can be.

With Peyton Manning, the Colts are probably 8-4 or 7-5. Without him, they're 0-12 and the Receivers seem old and slow and the line looks porous.

If you have imperfect talent around the QB, that makes good play from the QB even MORE important, not a crutch to give a meh QB another year.


Tebow is another good example. Without him, the Broncos would have 2-3 wins.

You could put Colt on the Ravens and/or Houston and those teams would be in similar positions that they are now.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Triple-S » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:54 pm

I can't see anyway to excuse shurmer at this point, and frankly, he's not worth even remotely defending at this point.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby rbm0183 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:10 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
rbm0183 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Offensive Lines that I can think of off the top of my head that I feel are clearly worse than Cleveland's: Chicago and Pittsburgh

QB's that play behind those Offensive Lines that get the job done despite the pressure: Jay Cutler and POS

Caleb Hanie is the proof of how important QB play can be.

With Peyton Manning, the Colts are probably 8-4 or 7-5. Without him, they're 0-12 and the Receivers seem old and slow and the line looks porous.

If you have imperfect talent around the QB, that makes good play from the QB even MORE important, not a crutch to give a meh QB another year.


Fair enough. The Bears and Steelers may very well have worse offensive lines than the Browns. But they also have assets that the Browns do not have in the form of legitimate coaching staffs who have the ability to devise an NFL game plan (Martz and Arians), and playmakers (Forte, Wallace, Antonio Brown...heck even Johnny Knox would be an upgrade over the crap the Browns are running out at WR).

The Colts are a very unique situation. Unquestionably Peyton Manning's play is that much of a swing factor, but not only because of his talent representing a 7 or 8 win upgrade over their other QBs. Their offense was entirely predicated on his one-in-a-million ability to dissect a defense and attack its weaknesses, and when they lost him they did not have the ability (or perhaps just the foresight) to execute a back-up plan.

All of this isn't to say that Colt is a good QB who can win a Super Bowl. It just says that to make the comparison between this situation to those ones based purely on one aspect, be it bad o-line play or the impact of losing a transcendent QB who also basically serves as his teams OC, and acting as if it is an apples-to-apples comparison is not really very convincing.


Which is easier to do: 1) Change the RT AND the RG AND the WR's AND the RB AND the entire coaching staff... all for the opportunity to see if Colt can be a franchise guy, or 2) try and draft a true elite QB?

Especially when you probably need an elite QB to win a SB even if you change the RT and the RG and the WR's and the RB and the coaching staff.

And if you don't even really believe that Colt can win a SB, then why are we even having this discussion?

I like the kid too, but my wishes that he WOULD be the guy don't mean he CAN be the guy. It's not really fair to him, but that's just the way life goes.

If you took QB out of the equation, which team has the best roster in the NFL? (Green Bay, New England, Houston, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans?).

Put Colt McCoy at QB on that team as their starter. Do you think they have a realistic shot to win a Super Bowl now?

If you answer is Yes, then you just see a lot more in him than I do and we'll have to agree to disagree.


It's two different angles on the same situation. I can look at this roster and say for certain that they need a different RT, at least one new WR, and that the offensive scheme is absolutely horrid. I feel that all of those things need upgraded drastically for this team to go anywhere, regardless of who the quarterback is. Is it easier to replace one position than upgrade 3? Of course, but how does the fact that it's quicker and easier make it the solution? If they draft Barkley or Griffin and they come in with no significant upgrades elsewhere on the roster and win 5 games while playing uneven football, can we really say we're further along? I think we'd just be having this same debate.

If, on the other hand, you add the pieces you have to add and put them around McCoy next year, you can evaluate things differently and get a clearer answer to the question.

The difference between me and some other people is that they believe they've seen enough from these 21 starts with McCoy to reach a definitive conclusion on him. They're convinced that there's nothing there to indicate room for improvement. I'm not convinced one way or the other. I see flashes of things I really like and flashes of things that worry me. All constantly surrounded by an unflinching collection of suckitude.

You ask me to put Colt McCoy on those elite teams and evaluate their Super Bowl chances? The only answer I can give is that I don't know. Put Barkley or Griffin on one of those teams. Now are they a contender? Maybe you're convinced that they'd be closer with one of those guys. I'm not.

My gut tells me Colt isn't the guy. But my eyes tell me that it doesn't matter who takes snaps until they have something around them.
Last edited by rbm0183 on Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby jerryroche » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:12 pm

The only way Holmgren can get out of his stupid "last coach I'll ever hire" prediction is to get out his old playbook next summer, traipse down from the president's box onto the sideline, and pull on a brown windbreaker. Offer Shurmur a job as special teams coach, or whatever.

A year ago, I thought that Holmgren would never consider head coaching again. But after watching what his head coach has wrought over a preseason and 12 games, might The Walrus be considering another go-round?

Agree or disagree??? Would that be good or bad???
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby swerb » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:16 pm

Hikohadon wrote:If you took QB out of the equation, which team has the best roster in the NFL? (Green Bay, New England, Houston, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans?).

Put Colt McCoy at QB on that team as their starter. Do you think they have a realistic shot to win a Super Bowl now?

If you answer is Yes, then you just see a lot more in him than I do and we'll have to agree to disagree.

Exactly this.

It's pointless to waste any more time with a guy not good enough to win a Super Bowl. Especially for this franchise, which has been mired in suck for 12 years. McCoy isn't good enough. Lets just move on.

The same thing needs to happen with Shurmur. The guy is an idiot. Completely and totally unqualified and unready to be a NFL head coach. He's another one of these douchebag Walrus disciple offensive coordinators (Zorn, Childress, Sherman, Mariucci, and on and on) that have no idea how to lead men, win locker rooms, and put together a comprehensive battle plan to put you in the best position as possible to win on Sundays. I've never seen a coach more in over his head. And that is coming from someone who watched Fudd Palmer and Grimace Crennel coach my favorite team.

Go get a head coach you know is good. Instead of guessing on these rookie coaches. Like I begged em to do this off-season, when John Fox was available. You don't hire Pat Murmur to run your team and your offense as a first time coach. You go get a John Fox, and then get him good coordinators.

Holmgren effed this up. The "expansive search" turned into an interview with a Rooney candidate, a guy that deferred after winning a OT coin flip, and his hand-picked puppet. He missed. Now he's gotta fix it. I pray he has the balls to do it instead of making us waste another year or two with this clown.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby rbm0183 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:27 pm

jerryroche wrote:The only way Holmgren can get out of his stupid "last coach I'll ever hire" prediction is to get out his old playbook next summer, traipse down from the president's box onto the sideline, and pull on a brown windbreaker. Offer Shurmur a job as special teams coach, or whatever.

A year ago, I thought that Holmgren would never consider head coaching again. But after watching what his head coach has wrought over a preseason and 12 games, might The Walrus be considering another go-round?

Agree or disagree??? Would that be good or bad???


Something about that idea scares the crap out of me. I just can't see the Prez/Head Coach dynamic working at all. It just feels like it would be a disaster.

I sincerely hope that Holmgren isn't worried about saving face. I don't care what he said when he hired Shurmur - if he believes he made a mistake and does nothing...that would be indefensible. If Holmgren feels after watching Shurmur go out there and embarrass himself and Holmgren every week that Paddy just can't hack it, then he had better sack up and cut him loose. And if this concussion mess is the impetus for it, then thank you James Harrison for helping to get this guy out of town.

But I don't think that the answer is for Holmgren to take over on the sidelines. I don't know...its just a gut feeling. Of course, he'd definitely be an upgrade from Shurmur...which, just to be clear, doesn't mean much, because I'd take Butcher and Mangini back over Shurmur at this point.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:37 pm

I think it is important to take a moment to realize, from what we see on the TV screen, that is is difficult to evaluate who is more at fault...line/qb/wr whatever. We see limited views a very limited number of times.

However, the guys that need to make the decision have access to a whole hell of a lot more information from the coach's tapes. They know the progression the QB is supposed to follow. Is he? They know if he made the correct choice. Which is what it is all about. Is he passing on throws he should make because the window is smaller than he would like? Are the receivers running the routes crisply and correctly? Is the OL making the correct pickups? All of that kind of stuff is what will determine if a new QB is needed, or if a new WR will make a difference for the QB we have.

Thank god we have an offensive savant as head coach :lmfao:
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:29 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Which is easier to do: 1) Change the RT AND the RG AND the WR's AND the RB AND the entire coaching staff... all for the opportunity to see if Colt can be a franchise guy, or 2) try and draft a true elite QB?


See, in my opinion this question is useless for the simple reason you're going to have to have different guys at pretty much each of those positions next year and beyond anyway. Or vast improvement from the guys that currently occupy those positions (and the coaching staff as I don't see Shurmur being generally lost BECAUSE of McCoy).

You're assuming an elite QB would overcome all of those issues. I'm saying those issues are fatal regardless of who's under center and you can't win a SB with an elite QB and all those issues.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:26 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Which is easier to do: 1) Change the RT AND the RG AND the WR's AND the RB AND the entire coaching staff... all for the opportunity to see if Colt can be a franchise guy, or 2) try and draft a true elite QB?


See, in my opinion this question is useless for the simple reason you're going to have to have different guys at pretty much each of those positions next year and beyond anyway. Or vast improvement from the guys that currently occupy those positions (and the coaching staff as I don't see Shurmur being generally lost BECAUSE of McCoy).

You're assuming an elite QB would overcome all of those issues. I'm saying those issues are fatal regardless of who's under center and you can't win a SB with an elite QB and all those issues.


I don't think it's so much that an elite QB would overcome those issues. I think it's that those issues are easier to correct than it is to correct having a QB who is not elite. And in many cases having an elite QB would make it easier to correct those other issues.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:35 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Which is easier to do: 1) Change the RT AND the RG AND the WR's AND the RB AND the entire coaching staff... all for the opportunity to see if Colt can be a franchise guy, or 2) try and draft a true elite QB?


See, in my opinion this question is useless for the simple reason you're going to have to have different guys at pretty much each of those positions next year and beyond anyway. Or vast improvement from the guys that currently occupy those positions (and the coaching staff as I don't see Shurmur being generally lost BECAUSE of McCoy).

You're assuming an elite QB would overcome all of those issues. I'm saying those issues are fatal regardless of who's under center and you can't win a SB with an elite QB and all those issues.


I don't think it's so much that an elite QB would overcome those issues. I think it's that those issues are easier to correct than it is to correct having a QB who is not elite. And in many cases having an elite QB would make it easier to correct those other issues.


I hear ya. But Pinkston, Lauvao and Pashos would get anyone concussed or killed and Little ain't holding onto any QBs throws, MoMass ain't any faster, Cribbs runs no better routes, Hardesty and Ogbonnaya no more likely to get bounce off hits in backfield for + yards. Hillis wouldn't be healthier and Shurmur no less frightened looking on sideline with elite QB.

There might be 5 of 50+ spots on roster that would start with playoff caliber team that runs 4-3.

Thomas, Haden, Mack, D'Qwell and umm.... and...I'll say Rubin. Yes, Rubin.

IMO.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:37 pm

I'v spent all day trying to wrap my head around how a 4-8 team can be on the opponents 1 yd line and NOT go for it on 4th down, yet later be stuck on THEIR OWN 1 yd line and call a QB sneak (with a QB that weighs a buck 90, and believe me I love Colt's heart and toughness)....also spent all day trying to wrap my ahead around what I would get Peeker for Xmas if I had the honor.

All day, and I came up with no answers.

Somebody explain it to me like I'm a six year old.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:45 pm

peeker643 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Which is easier to do: 1) Change the RT AND the RG AND the WR's AND the RB AND the entire coaching staff... all for the opportunity to see if Colt can be a franchise guy, or 2) try and draft a true elite QB?


See, in my opinion this question is useless for the simple reason you're going to have to have different guys at pretty much each of those positions next year and beyond anyway. Or vast improvement from the guys that currently occupy those positions (and the coaching staff as I don't see Shurmur being generally lost BECAUSE of McCoy).

You're assuming an elite QB would overcome all of those issues. I'm saying those issues are fatal regardless of who's under center and you can't win a SB with an elite QB and all those issues.


I don't think it's so much that an elite QB would overcome those issues. I think it's that those issues are easier to correct than it is to correct having a QB who is not elite. And in many cases having an elite QB would make it easier to correct those other issues.


I hear ya. But Pinkston, Lauvao and Pashos would get anyone concussed or killed and Little ain't holding onto any QBs throws, MoMass ain't any faster, Cribbs runs no better routes, Hardesty and Ogbonnaya no more likely to get bounce off hits in backfield for + yards. Hillis wouldn't be healthier and Shurmur no less frightened looking on sideline with elite QB.

There might be 5 of 50+ spots on roster that would start with playoff caliber team that runs 4-3.

Thomas, Haden, Mack, D'Qwell and umm.... and...I'll say Rubin. Yes, Rubin.

IMO.


Again... Pittsburgh's O Line, significantly worse, Mendenhall, nothing special. The only thing the Steelers have that the Browns don't have is a good QB and a couple good WR's.

And it's not like those couple WR's are making Ben.

You put Colt McCoy on the Packers with no running game and a line that is questionable and he'll get killed and someone will be complaining that it's everyone but Colt's fault.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:53 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Again... Pittsburgh's O Line, significantly worse, Mendenhall, nothing special. The only thing the Steelers have that the Browns don't have is a good QB and a couple good WR's.

And it's not like those couple WR's are making Ben.

You put Colt McCoy on the Packers with no running game and a line that is questionable and he'll get killed and someone will be complaining that it's everyone but Colt's fault.

Wait, pukes O line is much worse than ours(?) and you're still saying Mendenhall is nothing special...can you have it both ways hiko? Mendenhall (and the Steelers) put on a clinic in that late 3rd early 4th quarter drive last night. I mean seriously all the talk of this D this season, if it wasn't already debunked, was debunked in that 4-5 minutes last night.

But that guy is meh?

They never quit, to their credit.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:57 pm

rbm0183 wrote:It's two different angles on the same situation. I can look at this roster and say for certain that they need a different RT, at least one new WR, and that the offensive scheme is absolutely horrid. I feel that all of those things need upgraded drastically for this team to go anywhere, regardless of who the quarterback is. Is it easier to replace one position than upgrade 3? Of course, but how does the fact that it's quicker and easier make it the solution? If they draft Barkley or Griffin and they come in with no significant upgrades elsewhere on the roster and win 5 games while playing uneven football, can we really say we're further along? I think we'd just be having this same debate.

If, on the other hand, you add the pieces you have to add and put them around McCoy next year, you can evaluate things differently and get a clearer answer to the question.

The difference between me and some other people is that they believe they've seen enough from these 21 starts with McCoy to reach a definitive conclusion on him. They're convinced that there's nothing there to indicate room for improvement. I'm not convinced one way or the other. I see flashes of things I really like and flashes of things that worry me. All constantly surrounded by an unflinching collection of suckitude.


My take is that the Browns have wasted enough years finding out about these low-ceiling guys that we're all pretty sure aren't gonna cut it. Time to get a top prospect in here. I can't stand another season of weak QB-ing and Excuse-A-Palooza from the fans.

rbm0183 wrote:You ask me to put Colt McCoy on those elite teams and evaluate their Super Bowl chances? The only answer I can give is that I don't know. Put Barkley or Griffin on one of those teams. Now are they a contender? Maybe you're convinced that they'd be closer with one of those guys. I'm not.


The only thing I'm "convinced" of is that Colt is not the guy. Just because RG3 or Barkley might also not be the guy doesn't mean I don't try to find out.

rbm0183 wrote:My gut tells me Colt isn't the guy. But my eyes tell me that it doesn't matter who takes snaps until they have something around them.


I'm sorry, but the opinion that putting, say, Aaron Rodgers on this team wouldn't lead to significant improvement instantly because of the "limitations" is flat retarded. I'm hoping that's not what you're saying.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:01 pm

FUDU wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Again... Pittsburgh's O Line, significantly worse, Mendenhall, nothing special. The only thing the Steelers have that the Browns don't have is a good QB and a couple good WR's.

And it's not like those couple WR's are making Ben.

You put Colt McCoy on the Packers with no running game and a line that is questionable and he'll get killed and someone will be complaining that it's everyone but Colt's fault.

Wait, pukes O line is much worse than ours(?) and you're still saying Mendenhall is nothing special...can you have it both ways hiko? Mendenhall (and the Steelers) put on a clinic in that late 3rd early 4th quarter drive last night. I mean seriously all the talk of this D this season, if it wasn't already debunked, was debunked in that 4-5 minutes last night.

But that guy is meh?

They never quit, to their credit.


What ranking is our Run D?

Peyton Hillis could've easily done what Mendenhall did if he were a Steeler playing the Browns. Against good teams, Mendenhall is crap.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:06 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Which is easier to do: 1) Change the RT AND the RG AND the WR's AND the RB AND the entire coaching staff... all for the opportunity to see if Colt can be a franchise guy, or 2) try and draft a true elite QB?


See, in my opinion this question is useless for the simple reason you're going to have to have different guys at pretty much each of those positions next year and beyond anyway. Or vast improvement from the guys that currently occupy those positions (and the coaching staff as I don't see Shurmur being generally lost BECAUSE of McCoy).

You're assuming an elite QB would overcome all of those issues. I'm saying those issues are fatal regardless of who's under center and you can't win a SB with an elite QB and all those issues.


I don't think it's so much that an elite QB would overcome those issues. I think it's that those issues are easier to correct than it is to correct having a QB who is not elite. And in many cases having an elite QB would make it easier to correct those other issues.


I hear ya. But Pinkston, Lauvao and Pashos would get anyone concussed or killed and Little ain't holding onto any QBs throws, MoMass ain't any faster, Cribbs runs no better routes, Hardesty and Ogbonnaya no more likely to get bounce off hits in backfield for + yards. Hillis wouldn't be healthier and Shurmur no less frightened looking on sideline with elite QB.

There might be 5 of 50+ spots on roster that would start with playoff caliber team that runs 4-3.

Thomas, Haden, Mack, D'Qwell and umm.... and...I'll say Rubin. Yes, Rubin.

IMO.


Again... Pittsburgh's O Line, significantly worse, Mendenhall, nothing special. The only thing the Steelers have that the Browns don't have is a good QB and a couple good WR's.

And it's not like those couple WR's are making Ben.

You put Colt McCoy on the Packers with no running game and a line that is questionable and he'll get killed and someone will be complaining that it's everyone but Colt's fault.


I disagree Pittsburgh's line is significantly worse. And I disagree more that Wallace and Brown aren't significantly better than the Browns WR. Mendenhall has/will rush for the same number of yards Hillis did last season.

Tomlin far greater than Shurmur, Pittsburgh scheme on both sides far greater than Browns.

And don't misunderstand what I'm saying about McCoy. I don't think he's elite (I also don't think Flacco is elite but you can win 3 games in the playoffs with him). The point is there are so many holes and McCoy is likely good enough that I think the Browns will look to fill holes with their first few picks.

Mark me down as them not taking a QB in the first couple rounds. I just think that's where they are.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:06 pm

Well I put little into what those rankings say, way too circumstantial. I mean shit OUR D ONLY GAVE UP 14PTS LAST NIGHT.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:10 pm

peeker643 wrote:I disagree Pittsburgh's line is significantly worse. And I disagree more that Wallace and Brown aren't significantly better than the Browns WR. Mendenhall has/will rush for the same number of yards Hillis did last season.

Tomlin far greater than Shurmur, Pittsburgh scheme on both sides far greater than Browns.

And don't misunderstand what I'm saying about McCoy. I don't think he's elite (I also don't think Flacco is elite but you can win 3 games in the playoffs with him). The point is there are so many holes and McCoy is likely good enough that I think the Browns will look to fill holes with their first few picks.

Mark me down as them not taking a QB in the first couple rounds. I just think that's where they are.


POS gets hit more than Colt, and they couldn't open a hole to save their life against good teams, but let's agree to agree that they're no better than Cleveland's.

I never said that the Steelers WR's weren't signifanctly better. They are. Much better.

And, yes, we can't underestimate the Tomlin advantage over Shurmur.

I can't disagree that they very well might not take a QB... but they should.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:12 pm

FUDU wrote:Well I put little into what those rankings say, way too circumstantial. I mean shit OUR D ONLY GAVE UP 14PTS LAST NIGHT.


Yeah, thanks to 2 red zone fumbles and a goal line stand.

290 yards to Ray Rice. THAT's a good RB.

Mendenhall proved that he's a big step down from there.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:13 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
peeker643 wrote:I disagree Pittsburgh's line is significantly worse. And I disagree more that Wallace and Brown aren't significantly better than the Browns WR. Mendenhall has/will rush for the same number of yards Hillis did last season.

Tomlin far greater than Shurmur, Pittsburgh scheme on both sides far greater than Browns.

And don't misunderstand what I'm saying about McCoy. I don't think he's elite (I also don't think Flacco is elite but you can win 3 games in the playoffs with him). The point is there are so many holes and McCoy is likely good enough that I think the Browns will look to fill holes with their first few picks.

Mark me down as them not taking a QB in the first couple rounds. I just think that's where they are.


POS gets hit more than Colt, and they couldn't open a hole to save their life against good teams, but let's agree to agree that they're no better than Cleveland's.

I never said that the Steelers WR's weren't signifanctly better. They are. Much better.

And, yes, we can't underestimate the Tomlin advantage over Shurmur.

I can't disagree that they very well might not take a QB... but they should.

You did say this: And it's not like those couple WR's are making Ben., I'd think they are making Ben, making him a much more viable QB than if he had Little, Norwood or a fan wearing a MoMass jersey.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby rbm0183 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:47 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
rbm0183 wrote:It's two different angles on the same situation. I can look at this roster and say for certain that they need a different RT, at least one new WR, and that the offensive scheme is absolutely horrid. I feel that all of those things need upgraded drastically for this team to go anywhere, regardless of who the quarterback is. Is it easier to replace one position than upgrade 3? Of course, but how does the fact that it's quicker and easier make it the solution? If they draft Barkley or Griffin and they come in with no significant upgrades elsewhere on the roster and win 5 games while playing uneven football, can we really say we're further along? I think we'd just be having this same debate.

If, on the other hand, you add the pieces you have to add and put them around McCoy next year, you can evaluate things differently and get a clearer answer to the question.

The difference between me and some other people is that they believe they've seen enough from these 21 starts with McCoy to reach a definitive conclusion on him. They're convinced that there's nothing there to indicate room for improvement. I'm not convinced one way or the other. I see flashes of things I really like and flashes of things that worry me. All constantly surrounded by an unflinching collection of suckitude.


My take is that the Browns have wasted enough years finding out about these low-ceiling guys that we're all pretty sure aren't gonna cut it. Time to get a top prospect in here. I can't stand another season of weak QB-ing and Excuse-A-Palooza from the fans.

rbm0183 wrote:You ask me to put Colt McCoy on those elite teams and evaluate their Super Bowl chances? The only answer I can give is that I don't know. Put Barkley or Griffin on one of those teams. Now are they a contender? Maybe you're convinced that they'd be closer with one of those guys. I'm not.


The only thing I'm "convinced" of is that Colt is not the guy. Just because RG3 or Barkley might also not be the guy doesn't mean I don't try to find out.

rbm0183 wrote:My gut tells me Colt isn't the guy. But my eyes tell me that it doesn't matter who takes snaps until they have something around them.


I'm sorry, but the opinion that putting, say, Aaron Rodgers on this team wouldn't lead to significant improvement instantly because of the "limitations" is flat retarded. I'm hoping that's not what you're saying.


Time to get a top prospect in here? Brady Quinn or Tim Couch? Those were top prospects...worked out great.

Fine, you're convinced that Colt isn't the guy. I'm not convinced one way or the other. Isn't that the basic crux of the whole argument?

Nice "retarded" shot. Aaron Rodgers, as he is right now, would definitely make a difference on this team. How much of a difference if he was running Shurmur's offense and had received Shurmur's tutoring - well, I think that may make a difference in how effective Rodgers would be too.

And of course, there's only one Aaron Rodgers, and unless you think one of the guys in the draft is going to play at his level he isn't even relevant in the conversation about whether it makes sense to give up on Colt now or improve the team and give him another year to sink or swim without tying an anchor around his neck.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:50 pm

FUDU wrote:You did say this: And it's not like those couple WR's are making Ben., I'd think they are making Ben, making him a much more viable QB than if he had Little, Norwood or a fan wearing a MoMass jersey.


And I think that without a good QB, they're just a couple guys running around uselessly 40 yards from the line of scrimmage.

Are they better than the Browns WR's? Yes.

Do they help POS to look better than he would with the Browns WR's? Yes.

But even with the Browns WR's, QB's of POS's caliber still get it done. Disagree if you like.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby rbm0183 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:47 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
FUDU wrote:You did say this: And it's not like those couple WR's are making Ben., I'd think they are making Ben, making him a much more viable QB than if he had Little, Norwood or a fan wearing a MoMass jersey.


And I think that without a good QB, they're just a couple guys running around uselessly 40 yards from the line of scrimmage.

Are they better than the Browns WR's? Yes.

Do they help POS to look better than he would with the Browns WR's? Yes.

But even with the Browns WR's, QB's of POS's caliber still get it done. Disagree if you like.


Steve Young in Tampa Bay compared to his time in San Fran. Kurt Warner with the Giants compared to his time with the Rams and Cards. Troy Aikman during his first couple of years in Dallas when the cupboard was bare. Dan Fouts had 34 TDs and 57 INTs and didn't post a winning record his first 5 seasons.

Now I'm obviously not saying that Colt is a Hall-of-Famer like those guys, but I am saying that the supporting cast and proper scheme by the coaching staff made a huge difference in their careers. For you to conclude that a great QB will “get it done” regardless of those other factors is ridiculous. But for a quirk of fate we may never have known the greatness that some QBs had in them...and there are no doubt some that have fallen on the scrap heap who may have achieved greatness if put in the proper circumstance and never got that opportunity.

That's not to say that there aren't some who can turn chicken crap into chicken salad, but you don't have to find one of those guys if you get the right guy in the right place with the right players at the right time. And the chances are probably about the same of finding a QB that transcends what you put around him as they are for finding the right pieces to allow a different QB to shine.

in any of these scenarios you still need a special player at the QB position. I know you've concluded that Colt is not that guy. But do you think that one of the top prospects in the draft is? And more importantly, what do the Browns think? I'm inclined to agree with peeker that Colt will get another year, and as long as they improve other areas I'm okay with that.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:24 pm

rbm0183 wrote:Time to get a top prospect in here? Brady Quinn or Tim Couch? Those were top prospects...worked out great.

Fine, you're convinced that Colt isn't the guy. I'm not convinced one way or the other. Isn't that the basic crux of the whole argument?

Nice "retarded" shot. Aaron Rodgers, as he is right now, would definitely make a difference on this team. How much of a difference if he was running Shurmur's offense and had received Shurmur's tutoring - well, I think that may make a difference in how effective Rodgers would be too.

And of course, there's only one Aaron Rodgers, and unless you think one of the guys in the draft is going to play at his level he isn't even relevant in the conversation about whether it makes sense to give up on Colt now or improve the team and give him another year to sink or swim without tying an anchor around his neck.


Brady Quinn was not a top prospect. He fell for a reason. I'm talking about guys that come out with people thinking they could be elite, guys that get drafted in the Top 5, not in the 20's (and please don't tell me that Quinn was a Top 5 rated prospect b/c clearly the teams didn't feel the same way).

Tim Couch... well, we tried that 12 years ago and it didn't work. Better never try that again!

And, yes, I feel that both Luck and RG3 have the potential to be elite. I think Barkley has the potential to be very good. I think Colt McCoy is a game manager at best.

If you for some inscrutable reason want to stick with a guy that has a much lower ceiling and has a tangible NFL track record of ineffectiveness over taking a chance on a prospect that most scouts would agree increases your talent at the position immensely, that's your prerogative, and you've every right to that. There's just no argument that you can possibly make that will make sense to me why you would want that.

I'm tired of wasted years, dude. I'd much rather "give up on Colt too early" and end up with a San Diego Brees/Rivers situation than end up with a Cleveland Brady Quinn/Charlie Frye/Tim Couch/Kelly Holcomb situation.

It probably won't happen anyway. These are the Browns after all.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:01 pm

rbm0183 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
FUDU wrote:You did say this: And it's not like those couple WR's are making Ben., I'd think they are making Ben, making him a much more viable QB than if he had Little, Norwood or a fan wearing a MoMass jersey.


And I think that without a good QB, they're just a couple guys running around uselessly 40 yards from the line of scrimmage.

Are they better than the Browns WR's? Yes.

Do they help POS to look better than he would with the Browns WR's? Yes.

But even with the Browns WR's, QB's of POS's caliber still get it done. Disagree if you like.


Steve Young in Tampa Bay compared to his time in San Fran. Kurt Warner with the Giants compared to his time with the Rams and Cards. Troy Aikman during his first couple of years in Dallas when the cupboard was bare. Dan Fouts had 34 TDs and 57 INTs and didn't post a winning record his first 5 seasons.

Now I'm obviously not saying that Colt is a Hall-of-Famer like those guys, but I am saying that the supporting cast and proper scheme by the coaching staff made a huge difference in their careers. For you to conclude that a great QB will “get it done” regardless of those other factors is ridiculous. But for a quirk of fate we may never have known the greatness that some QBs had in them...and there are no doubt some that have fallen on the scrap heap who may have achieved greatness if put in the proper circumstance and never got that opportunity.

That's not to say that there aren't some who can turn chicken crap into chicken salad, but you don't have to find one of those guys if you get the right guy in the right place with the right players at the right time. And the chances are probably about the same of finding a QB that transcends what you put around him as they are for finding the right pieces to allow a different QB to shine.

in any of these scenarios you still need a special player at the QB position. I know you've concluded that Colt is not that guy. But do you think that one of the top prospects in the draft is? And more importantly, what do the Browns think? I'm inclined to agree with peeker that Colt will get another year, and as long as they improve other areas I'm okay with that.


But those guys - even in their poor situations, there were things you SAW. Things here and there that indicated you might have something.

With Colt, well, it's gettin' past the time where we need to see some things, ILO. Even something like accuracy, which was supposed to be his strength, has been pretty average at best.

Again, I'm not betting my life on anything concerning him now, but it has been my past experience looking at QB's, in both good situations and bad, that if I don't see something I can hang my hat on after so many starts, the odds are longer and longer that he's the man.

And make no mistake about it, the standards have changed from a few years ago. Things like "solid" "game manager" "capable with an excellent defense"....these things no longer cut it in todays game. You need a QB who can become EXCELLENT, cause that's what you need to win. Hell, the top three contenders this year are weak defensively and don't run the ball. If you're a "game manager" that can't hang up 30-40, well, good luck.

If you are going to make a run at the whole thing, the question needs to be, Can my quarterback become great?

Period.

Replacing "great" with "solid" or anything else is just wastin' time.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby rbm0183 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:35 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
rbm0183 wrote:Time to get a top prospect in here? Brady Quinn or Tim Couch? Those were top prospects...worked out great.

Fine, you're convinced that Colt isn't the guy. I'm not convinced one way or the other. Isn't that the basic crux of the whole argument?

Nice "retarded" shot. Aaron Rodgers, as he is right now, would definitely make a difference on this team. How much of a difference if he was running Shurmur's offense and had received Shurmur's tutoring - well, I think that may make a difference in how effective Rodgers would be too.

And of course, there's only one Aaron Rodgers, and unless you think one of the guys in the draft is going to play at his level he isn't even relevant in the conversation about whether it makes sense to give up on Colt now or improve the team and give him another year to sink or swim without tying an anchor around his neck.


Brady Quinn was not a top prospect. He fell for a reason. I'm talking about guys that come out with people thinking they could be elite, guys that get drafted in the Top 5, not in the 20's (and please don't tell me that Quinn was a Top 5 rated prospect b/c clearly the teams didn't feel the same way).

Tim Couch... well, we tried that 12 years ago and it didn't work. Better never try that again!

And, yes, I feel that both Luck and RG3 have the potential to be elite. I think Barkley has the potential to be very good. I think Colt McCoy is a game manager at best.

If you for some inscrutable reason want to stick with a guy that has a much lower ceiling and has a tangible NFL track record of ineffectiveness over taking a chance on a prospect that most scouts would agree increases your talent at the position immensely, that's your prerogative, and you've every right to that. There's just no argument that you can possibly make that will make sense to me why you would want that.

I'm tired of wasted years, dude. I'd much rather "give up on Colt too early" and end up with a San Diego Brees/Rivers situation than end up with a Cleveland Brady Quinn/Charlie Frye/Tim Couch/Kelly Holcomb situation.

It probably won't happen anyway. These are the Browns after all.


Fair enough. Colt has definitely not succeeded on the bottom line, and perhaps I'm grasping at straws in pulling some things that I like from his performances. There is no question that I would have liked to see more from him at this point, although I still continue to wonder how much is completely beyond his control...especially in relation to Shurmur's incredibly lackluster playcalling and coaching.

Quinn was a top prospect right up until the weeks leading up to the draft. I still can't believe that he sucked as bad as he did when he got his shot. Couch...well, we all know about Timmy. A lot like Colt's situation. Whether or not he ever could have been something more, he never had much of a chance to succeed. Thinking back, he showed more signs in his first couple of seasons than Colt has, with an even more pathetic team around him. And still it didn't work out.

I do agree that Luck is an elite prospect and I would love to have him, but it really sounds like there is no way that he will be available to us. Griffin is someone I do like, but I'm not completely sold. And something about Barkley really scares me. Maybe just the Leinart/Sanchez USC stink, but he strikes me as someone that will at best be just good enough to get you close but never good enough to get you over the top.

Of course, if I'm being completely honest, that's probably the best someone can hope for from Colt based on what we've seen. I just shudder to think that we might bring in yet another QB to be dragged down by mediocre supporting casts and freakishly awful coaching. (cache)

As I've already said a couple of times, whatever they decide to do at QB I can get on board with. But if they don't address the other areas then I think it will continue to be very difficult to conclusively determine exactly what we have at the QB position.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Cease » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:54 pm

swerb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:If you took QB out of the equation, which team has the best roster in the NFL? (Green Bay, New England, Houston, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New Orleans?).

Put Colt McCoy at QB on that team as their starter. Do you think they have a realistic shot to win a Super Bowl now?

If you answer is Yes, then you just see a lot more in him than I do and we'll have to agree to disagree.

Exactly this.

It's pointless to waste any more time with a guy not good enough to win a Super Bowl. Especially for this franchise, which has been mired in suck for 12 years. McCoy isn't good enough. Lets just move on.

The same thing needs to happen with Shurmur. The guy is an idiot. Completely and totally unqualified and unready to be a NFL head coach. He's another one of these douchebag Walrus disciple offensive coordinators (Zorn, Childress, Sherman, Mariucci, and on and on) that have no idea how to lead men, win locker rooms, and put together a comprehensive battle plan to put you in the best position as possible to win on Sundays. I've never seen a coach more in over his head. And that is coming from someone who watched Fudd Palmer and Grimace Crennel coach my favorite team.

Go get a head coach you know is good. Instead of guessing on these rookie coaches. Like I begged em to do this off-season, when John Fox was available. You don't hire Pat Murmur to run your team and your offense as a first time coach. You go get a John Fox, and then get him good coordinators.

Holmgren effed this up. The "expansive search" turned into an interview with a Rooney candidate, a guy that deferred after winning a OT coin flip, and his hand-picked puppet. He missed. Now he's gotta fix it. I pray he has the balls to do it instead of making us waste another year or two with this clown.


Balls across the nose! (If I may quote the Diceman)

Your Holmgren spit is sobering, and true... God Bless the Cleveland Browns.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:51 am

Does it not bother anyone on here, that Harrison took a shot at another Browns player again in this game. This time our QB and not one Browns player did anything again. When are these guys going to show some fight against the Steelers and Ravens. It is like they knwo they are bigger and badder then them and they just sit there and take what is given to them.

Week 17 it is time for a bounty on Harrison all the Browns fans should get together at the Stadium and give money into a pot and the player who finally ends his worthless piece of trash career gets the money. It is time for someone to put down this animal.
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby googleeph2 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:39 pm

Cleveland Matt wrote:Does it not bother anyone on here, that Harrison took a shot at another Browns player again in this game. This time our QB and not one Browns player did anything again. When are these guys going to show some fight against the Steelers and Ravens. It is like they knwo they are bigger and badder then them and they just sit there and take what is given to them.

Week 17 it is time for a bounty on Harrison all the Browns fans should get together at the Stadium and give money into a pot and the player who finally ends his worthless piece of trash career gets the money. It is time for someone to put down this animal.


Some good points there. I am really glad we're (team/fans) not whiny about it though. Neither we whiny last year when he blasted Cribbs and Mo.

Unlike Cincinnati, the week prior, when Ward knocked out Shipley.

It is football, and if the Browns act like victims, that would be unforgivable (to me).
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Re: Browns/Steelers Thursday Night

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:47 pm

What will bother me is if Harrison only gets fined. He's been through this many times; he should definitely be forced to sit a game. I don't care that nobody on the Browns stood up for Colt. I bet if we were 8-4 and that shit happened there would be a brawl.
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