Morning after Phins/Browns Discussion

[JCoz]

So I'm sure there is alot to talk about and I'm just going to start with a couple things.

This pass rush was very impressive yesterday, how about the Browns leading the AFC in sacks?2nd in the NFL? No one saw that coming I can safely say. Sheard just looks like a completely dif player at RE.

They also seem to be playing him very wide...not like the Eagles and Lions are doing, but still, looks like he is playing a 7 or 9 Technique...I didn't go back to look to be sure which. But he got alot of looks where he was against the TE yesterday, not even a RT.

I know Jason made a comment last week about getting Brown in there at the middle and letting DQ roam at WLB, and I think that might not be a bad idea. DQ has been playing well but I think we are suffering on plays where he drops back into a zone. No defense can cover the whole field at once but we seem to be particularly soft in the middle where DQ is dropping back to on passing plays. I dont know if Brown can play better there or not.

The other point I wanted to bring up is where in the hell is Evan Moore? Is he still hurt and they aren't fully reporting it, or are they slowly working him back in after another concussion...I can't think of any other explanation. This offense needs him in there.

And hey, look at that, the Browns have a backup RB. Nice. Hardesty looked about 100x better than any Peyton back up has yet,and Smith looked good in his one carry (I think 1) as well, did he get back into the game after that?

[mistero]

If I see them in the shotgun again on 2nd and 1 ,I'm gonna puke. Shurmer is really force feeding this passing attack when the game plan cries out for some old fashion two TE sets and between the tackle running.

How is Robo still on this squad? He adds nothing.I'm sure Mitchell could block just as well.

Next year's shopping list: RT, OLB,OLB, and MLB. Still think we have untapped gold at WR on our bench.

[peeker643]

So I'm sure there is alot to talk about and I'm just going to start with a couple things.

This pass rush was very impressive yesterday, how about the Browns leading the AFC in sacks?2nd in the NFL? No one saw that coming I can safely say. Sheard just looks like a completely dif player at RE.

They also seem to be playing him very wide...not like the Eagles and Lions are doing, but still, looks like he is playing a 7 or 9 Technique...I didn't go back to look to be sure which. But he got alot of looks where he was against the TE yesterday, not even a RT.

I know Jason made a comment last week about getting Brown in there at the middle and letting DQ roam at WLB, and I think that might not be a bad idea. DQ has been playing well but I think we are suffering on plays where he drops back into a zone. No defense can cover the whole field at once but we seem to be particularly soft in the middle where DQ is dropping back to on passing plays. I dont know if Brown can play better there or not.

The other point I wanted to bring up is where in the hell is Evan Moore? Is he still hurt and they aren't fully reporting it, or are they slowly working him back in after another concussion...I can't think of any other explanation. This offense needs him in there.

And hey, look at that, the Browns have a backup RB. Nice. Hardesty looked about 100x better than any Peyton back up has yet,and Smith looked good in his one carry (I think 1) as well, did he get back into the game after that?

I don't understand the Moore thing, I really don't. Is he a practice concern in terms of how hard he's working? Was that gator arm effort in game one an indication of that? I can't imagine it's a matchup thing.

Maybe his ass is in the dog house. If it was the concussion issue they'd be irresponsible in putting him on that field at all so I doubt that's it.

And yep, the defense has been a pleasant surprise while the offense has been a slight disappointment. I keep telling myself it's been just 9 weeks since they sarted learning a whole new system. That really is nothing in terms of time and getting comfortable and they've put their heads down and found a couple wins despite the growing pains.

[peeker643]

Here you go fellas (if anyone is interested):

[JCoz]

Dog house is possible. This isn't college though, and they just signed Moore to an extention, so he is clearly supposed to be a major contributer in this offense.

I hope some people ask at Paddy's presser to see if he'll comment on it.

[Prosecutor]

That really is nothing in terms of time and getting comfortable and they've put their heads down and found a couple wins despite the growing pains.

The fact that the Browns were able to pull out a win without Hillis and with no passing game to speak of until the final posssession is huge. We assumed the Browns would lose while developing the Heckert draftees, but it looks like they're capable of winning any game as long as the opponent is mediocre.

At crunch time McCoy stepped up and went 9-for-13 for 75 yards, and capped it off with an absolutely perfect throw to win it. Then the defense made a stand when 10 yards was all the Fins needed to have a shot at the winning field goal.

The offense was off its game, Cribbs was not availbable to return kicks, McCoy was not sharp and the offensive line was once again losing the LOS battle, but they still pulled out the win without the benefit of any big special teams plays and despite getting screwed on the celebration penalty. This game will be a tremendous confidence builder. Now they know they don't need to play their best to win.

[e0y2e3]

You guys can give the D credit if you want, but playing average football against pond scum doesn't really excite me.

The last three weeks have not been NFL football games, they have been perrenial bottom dwellers and a team that is falling apart at the seems pointing fingers at each other and begging the other team to take control of the game.

If the balls keep bouncing this teams way against the rest of the shit they are facing (and hey, HAD THEY SIGNED ONE PLAYER THAT MATTER IN FA)they could even sneak into the playoffs before becoming next years 2011 KC.

That, of course, would be Holmgren and Heckertt's worst nightmare, because when you try to tank last thing you want is lucky bounces and possibly the easiest schedule ever seen ruining said tanking.

[JCoz]

You guys can give the D credit if you want, but playing average football against pond scum doesn't really excite me.

The last three weeks have not been NFL football games, they have been perrenial bottom dwellers and a team that is falling apart at the seems pointing fingers at each other and begging the other team to take control of the game.

If the balls keep bouncing this teams way against the rest of the shit they are facing (and hey, HAD THEY SIGNED ONE PLAYER THAT MATTER IN FA)they could even sneak into the playoffs before becoming next years 2011 KC.

That, of course, would be Holmgren and Heckertt's worst nightmare, because when you try to tank last thing you want is lucky bounces and possibly the easiest schedule ever seen ruining said tanking.

E0 the schedule is not newly released. Who didnt see the first 9 games as 50/50's vs the bottom 3rd of the NFL? Anyone? Bueller?

The defense has made a pretty respectable switch to the 4-3 in a few weeks. The rookies look like solid players on the Dline and the picks from last year have continued to look good. I'm not sure expecting much more from them is reasonable. This team is what it is, building from the ground up. I dont understand what you expected, but if it was more than this than I think they were misguided.

This is a 6-7 win team, E0, and 6-7 win teams dont generally play great football.

[e0y2e3]

Everyone saw the schedule, that has nothing to do w/ the fact that this team pretty much sucks and is in coin flip land against pond scum. Evaluating anything against this is impossible (my major point, which just soared over your head).

Just saying, the unbridled optimism about the D is a joke.

When they run into a real offense then they can be a surprise. Thus far they are "HEY: NICE TO MEET YOU ANDY DALTON, CHAD HENNE AND KERRY COLLINS CORPSE!!!!"

This team easily could have made a few strategic moves in FA and probably been a 10+ win team, which is what feeds my entire H & H tanking the season argument.

Let's not comment on our D Ends, S, and OLBs being anything until they at least run into one decent team.

[e0y2e3]

And I didn't expect more, more so I'm enjoying watching everyone get excited about shit.

This team is damn near shit, reality will come home and it will do so hard.

But hey: 2-1 BABY!!#~$%!@%!

[JCoz]

Everyone saw the schedule, that has nothing to do w/ the fact that this team pretty much sucks and is in coin flip land against pond scum. Evaluating anything against this is impossible (my major point, which just soared over your head).

Just saying, the unbridled optimism about the D is a joke.

When they run into a real offense then they can be a surprise. Thus far they are "HEY: NICE TO MEET YOU ANDY DALTON, CHAD HENNE AND KERRY COLLINS CORPSE!!!!"

This team easily could have made a few strategic moves in FA and probably been a 10+ win team, which is what feeds my entire H & H tanking the season argument.

Let's not comment on our D Ends, S, and OLBs being anything until they at least run into one decent team.

Easily 10+ wins huh? And you are criticising optimism?

I am not part of a collective opinion here E0. My comment is about getting sacks. Flash back to this team annoucing they are switching to a 4-3 - Who though there was any way the Dline could even look passable? Who thought the Browns would actually be able to pressure the QB?

Thats all I'm looking at here with these comments, which is the only comments you can find from me regarding the Browns defense. I was thinking the same as you were in that a good offense likely shreds these guys. That has absolutely nothing to do with my comments here.

[e0y2e3]

When half of the league was FA's, yeah, they could have put together a team that could have made a run against these assholes and then lost in the first round of the playoffs (if they made it) by 50.

And did I ever type your name directly in my replies about the D?

[JacksonDysonJackson]

My notes from yesterday’s game:

- A win is certainly a win, but those were two Not Good teams playing yesterday.

- On Hillis…Peeker took me to task yesterday for my comment in the game thread. He seemed to think I was calling him selfish for not suiting up. That wasn’t the case…I was actually questioning his toughness for not playing with what was widely reported as strep throat. Little kids go to school with strep throat…so in a league where Ronnie Lott cuts off his pinky finger to play and Tony Romo guts it out with cracked ribs and a punctured lung, I didn’t think it was too much to ask for Peyton to suit up with strep throat. Closer to game time (and after my smart ass comment), reports came out that he was vomiting all Saturday and had a fever. I’ll give the big guy the benefit of the doubt. Egg on my face.

- Hardesty’s day. Last week I was openly wondering whether this kid was a bust. He hadn’t been called upon much at all to relieve Hillis, something that was needed given #40’s running style and the fact that he constitutes like 90% of our offense. Well, yesterday was his shot…and he did a pretty good job with his opportunity. He showed nice vision and a good burst. He was very close to breaking a few runs. I really liked that he hit the holes without much hesitation. In his limited showings, it looked like he was prone to indecision, but not yesterday. He also made the huge 4th down catch and run on the last drive. Nice game by Montario. Egg on my face II.

- My game ball goes to Jaball Sheard. Yesterday was the rookie’s best game of the young season. He was disruptive and constantly pressuring Henne. The most impressive thing for me was that he displayed an array of different moves, and doesn’t appear to be a one-trick pony like our old buddy Mr. Wimbley. A tip of the cap to Heckert on addressing the D-line early in the draft. Sheard and Taylor both look very promising early on.

- Speaking of Big Phil…anyone else start biting their nails when he went down holding his knee? Or when they showed the replay where MIA’s guard EFFING TACKLED HIS KNEE?! Great to see the big fella job off and return.

- Aside from the last drive, not a very good day for Colt. He threw behind a bunch of receivers and made a bad decision on that first quarter INT. To his credit though, he rallied the team and led them to a game winning drive. I bet he bought Cribbs and MoMass a steak dinner last night.

- I wasn’t particularly impressed by Schurmur’s play calling yesterday. Last week, I discussed the need to get Cribbs the ball more. Again, I don’t think they adequately used him. On a team with very few play makers, he has to be targeted a bunch more. Also, Greg Little came up big on that last drive, but where was he earlier? Schurmur needs to get him the ball early and often as well. The guy is HUGE…is it too much to ask to get him a bubble screen, forcing the opposition’s DBs to tackle him?

- Tip of the cap to Joe Haden…had a nice game against Marshall.

- Its bad enough we have to watch mediocre football, but we have to listen to Don Criqui and Randy Cross as well? I particularly liked when, after coming back from a highlight of the Giants-Eagles game, Criqui asked Cross when the last time the Giants had beaten the Phillies. Ole Don needs put out to pasture.

- Helluva catch by Cribbs.

- I’ve been down on the LBs, but Gocong made a few nice plays late, stalling a MIA drive.

- O-line didn’t have their best game. Too many hits on Colt.

- On the celebration penalty. I completely agree with Peeker about knowing the rule and following the rule. My question is – was the rule broken? Looked to me like both MoMass and Watson slipped and fell virtually simultaneously…that’s considered “excessive celebration for two men going to the ground”?

- Watson cannot be forgotten. He kept us in the game in the first half. Solid pro.

- In other TE news…is Evan Moore dead?

- Hey Mike Adams…go down!!!

- Can't have another slow start this week...TEN has not played bad this year...and CJ has done nothing thus far.

[mattvan1]

If I see them in the shotgun again on 2nd and 1 ,I'm gonna puke. Shurmer is really force feeding this passing attack when the game plan cries out for some old fashion two TE sets and between the tackle running.

Who's game plan? Not Shurmur's. The days of the power run game are over. This is a pass first team, like it or not.

[JCoz]

You came into a thread where all of 2 posters mentioned anything about the Defense and started into your comments with "You guys". Seemed directional enough to respond directly to.

[e0y2e3]

As usual you jump to being ultra-defensive.

Did you not just state that it was the collective talking about the D?

The post before I replied did Peeks not call them a pleasant surprise?

[JacksonDysonJackson]

Let's not comment on our D Ends, S, and OLBs being anything until they at least run into one decent team.

Sheard has played pretty good in each game. I'm encouraged by his play, even if he's not facing the opposition's LT.

Ward was invisible until yesterday...made a few plays.

The entire LB corps is awful.

[JCoz]

As usual you jump to being ultra-defensive.

Did you not just state that it was the collective talking about the D?

The post before I replied did Peeks not call them a pleasant surprise?

I only realized that after checking out the last page or two of the game thread a few min after my initial response to you, where I saw this was some continued rant about the unwashed masses getting built up for some big let down on account of the surprising decency of the Defense.

I dont normally even go into the game threads, its stream of conciousness message board sewage IYAM.

Comments about decent dline play and pleasant surprise's doesn't exactly fit the narrative you seem to be attacking.

[peeker643]

My notes from yesterday’s game:

- On Hillis…Peeker took me to task yesterday for my comment in the game thread. He seemed to think I was calling him selfish for not suiting up. That wasn’t the case…I was actually questioning his toughness for not playing with what was widely reported as strep throat. Little kids go to school with strep throat…so in a league where Ronnie Lott cuts off his pinky finger to play and Tony Romo guts it out with cracked ribs and a punctured lung, I didn’t think it was too much to ask for Peyton to suit up with strep throat. Closer to game time (and after my smart ass comment), reports came out that he was vomiting all Saturday and had a fever. I’ll give the big guy the benefit of the doubt. Egg on my face.

I wasn't taking you to task personally JDJ. Just the inference that this was a negotiating ploy of some sort.

Not to mention the sickest I've seen my kids is at times when they have step throat. It can be debilitating, clearly.

I don't, however, question Hillis's toughness at all. Seems to be about as tough as they come IMO.

[mistero]

Who's game plan? Not Shurmur's. The days of the power run game are over. This is a pass first team, like it or not.

Yeah , I know. It's very obvious. Pass,pass,pass. I don't have a problem with that,but shotgun in short yardage?? Isn't that just being stubborn? We're trying to win some games here while we transition...right?

[JacksonDysonJackson]

Not to mention the sickest I've seen my kids is at times when they have step throat. It can be debilitating, clearly.

Yeah, but I'm guessing they're not 250 lb NFL RBs.

[hiko]

Who's game plan? Not Shurmur's. The days of the power run game are over. This is a pass first team, like it or not.

Yeah , I know. It's very obvious. Pass,pass,pass. I don't have a problem with that,but shotgun in short yardage?? Isn't that just being stubborn? We're trying to win some games here while we transition...right?

I seem to recall plenty of short yardage run plays stuffed against the Colts. I don't think we can fantasize that this is a power running team just b/c Hillis is on the roster.

I don't really care how they get that yard... as long as they get it.

[mattvan1]

Who's game plan? Not Shurmur's. The days of the power run game are over. This is a pass first team, like it or not.

Yeah , I know. It's very obvious. Pass,pass,pass. I don't have a problem with that,but shotgun in short yardage?? Isn't that just being stubborn? We're trying to win some games here while we transition...right?

I'm with you, brother. I hate it myself, but the WCO giveth, and the WCO taketh away.

Although after the very small 3 game sample size, the taking away >>> the giving part.

[scott]

Hillis caught 61 passes last year - which is to say this wasn't a power rushing team then either. For all of Mangini's faults, he was better than almost anyone at finding another team's weakness and exploiting it. They power rushed when the other team was susceptible to it, and they did in the 4th quarter with a lead.

If we a lucky enough to see a 4th quarter with the Browns on the good side of the scoreboard we will see plenty of Hillis and Hardesty pounding.

[mattvan1]

If we a lucky enough to see a 4th quarter with the Browns on the good side of the scoreboard we will see plenty of Hillis and Hardesty pounding.

I hope so. But saying you're committed to to run is easy - it's another to stress it and practice it and actually use the run as a weapon and execute it in a game instaed of a change of pace. Percentage of run plays are down from 47% last year to 41% so far this year. YPC is down from 4.0 to 3.3. Some of that is game situations, no doubt. But we are not running the ball the way we did last year - and it's not because we're facing tough defenses. It's becasue it's not the Shurmur way.

[Erie Warrior]

Where's JB?

I wonder if he still thinks Rubin is a poor 3 technique?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Where's JB?

I wonder if he still thinks Rubin is a poor 3 technique?

He moved to Cambodia and has been running guns and selling hash.

[Prosecutor]

Percentage of run plays are down from 47% last year to 41% so far this year. YPC is down from 4.0 to 3.3. Some of that is game situations, no doubt. But we are not running the ball the way we did last year - and it's not because we're facing tough defenses. It's becasue it's not the Shurmur way.

Maybe there's another explanation. Maybe we're running less because we're only getting 3.3 ypc and that's not getting it done.

Last year the opponents weren't ready for Hillis early in the season. Later in the year his numbers dropped off dramatically after they started keying on him and he wore down. This year I think they're still keying on him and coming in with a game plan to stop Hillis first and force McCoy to throw.

Also, we lost Vickers, Steinbach, and Womack. Two rookies and a second year guy are starting in their spots. From what I've seen the holes just aren't there like they were last year. I believe it's partly because of the change in personnel and partly because defenses are committing to stopping Hillis. Possibly it's also due to Shurmur's philosophy of passing more often than Mangini/Daboll, but I think if we were still averaging 4.0 ypc we would be running the ball more frequently, possibly 47% of the time like last year.

[peeker643]

Where's JB?

I wonder if he still thinks Rubin is a poor 3 technique?

I wonder if he still thinks Sanzenbacher will make a shitty college receiver.

[mattvan1]

Percentage of run plays are down from 47% last year to 41% so far this year. YPC is down from 4.0 to 3.3. Some of that is game situations, no doubt. But we are not running the ball the way we did last year - and it's not because we're facing tough defenses. It's becasue it's not the Shurmur way.

Maybe there's another explanation. Maybe we're running less because we're only getting 3.3 ypc and that's not getting it done.

Last year the opponents weren't ready for Hillis early in the season. Later in the year his numbers dropped off dramatically after they started keying on him and he wore down. This year I think they're still keying on him and coming in with a game plan to stop Hillis first and force McCoy to throw.

Also, we lost Vickers, Steinbach, and Womack. Two rookies and a second year guy are starting in their spots. From what I've seen the holes just aren't there like they were last year. I believe it's partly because of the change in personnel and partly because defenses are committing to stopping Hillis. Possibly it's also due to Shurmur's philosophy of passing more often than Mangini/Daboll, but I think if we were still averaging 4.0 ypc we would be running the ball more frequently, possibly 47% of the time like last year.

A lot of what you've written is valid and you bring up some good points, although Hillis still averaged 4.0 ypc in December. Agree teams keyed more on him and it's pretty obvious that teams will dare McCoy to beat them.

But I think your last paragraph is backwards. Shurmur cannot abandon the run after 3 games because he never committed to it in the first place. As far as the change in personnel (Steinbach aside) don't you think the WCO philosphy had something to do with Vickers not being re-signed? It's not as if Shurmur woke up one day and said "Vickers isn't here so we'll run less." More like "Vickers doesn't fit the WCO so no need to re-sign him."

[hiko]

Agree with you, Matt. The decision to run less was a conscious one, likely based on the fact that passing Offenses are the trend right now. Every major player has a passing Offense at this point: Packers, Steelers, Saints, Patriots, Colts (with Peyton). The Jets have a running Offense, but their O struggles, so they're not a good example. Atlanta has some balance, as do the Bears. Even Baltimore is more of a passing team now than running - Rice catches tons of balls that are de facto handoffs.

Unless they change some rules, the NFL is a pass-first league, no matter if we like it or not.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Where's JB?

I wonder if he still thinks Rubin is a poor 3 technique?

I wonder if he still thinks Sanzenbacher will make a shitty college receiver.

The Great Dane has as many receiving TDs as Mo Mass and Cribbs Combined.