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hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other thread)

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hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other thread)

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:32 am

Matt van: I guess I read 'vanilla' and am thinking having a speed guy off theedge isn't that wild and crazy - still vanilla to me but perhaps a lot less so than what we expected (feared) out of Jauron.



I think the key is the word "vanilla".

I think of vanilla as more base tendency read and react, not merely the absence of Rex Ryan going UFO ad crazy stuff. I generally think of a standard 4 - 3 as requiring a LDE that is in the 280 range that cn play run adn well as passs and a RDE that can do same but is a little more quick and light, maybe 270. The interior players can be 300.

But if you say your DE's top out around 250 -- and for comparison's sake Quinn weighed in at 265 for example -- you are talking a pair of Tampa 2 type speed ends. The only way they play the run is on the way to the QB. You are talking an attack squad. You also need rotation badly or these guys will be ground down. Personnel-wise, this is almost a 2 - 5 base D .

The only way to support these guys is with beheimoth DT's. They can be athletic and one gap guys, think Sapp, but they need to be large. We're talking 325 - 350 ... or more. Rubin fits that mold. Then you have..... Shaefer beer and pulses.

Even if / when UFA hits late, the Browns have about, uh, 3 / 4 players who MAY be able to do this, and 2 are unsigned in Mitchell and Roth . Rubin is one for DT, and then MAYBE that one Tweener kid whose name is escaping me and I'm too lazy, but he's alway hurt can put a hand on the ground again.

But points are these:

- This sort of DL personnel grouping is by it's nature anything but vanilla. They may not do all the Bellichickian X's and O's chicanery skullduggery BS and just get atcha, but they will attack. Thus the philosophy on D is changing just as it is on O to an intitaive based orientation rather than a react strategy based orientation. IOW, wed ont care what you do. Here is what we do. And here we come.

- We have absolutely a paucrity or personnell to play this sceme. Get ready for a boatload of front 7 defenders to be drafted. Gut says they will go Green or Jones at 1 an dthen load up on these guys, starting possibly with Aldon Smith. The 'zona kids ater also fit mold hand in glove.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/601009-aldon-smith-the-biggest-wild-card-in-the-2011-nfl-draft

- What you won't see are the 280 - 290 DE's many fans will know and love from the big 10, unless they project Heyward inside, which is posible.

What I haven't figured out is the DB situation, and if they play zone cover two, how any DB's we need. If I were betting with your money, I'd bet on a UFA band aid and no more than one late round nickle prospect.


Note - Highjack it with QB points and those posts will be deleted with extreme prejudice. Modding up old PF style on this one as if I'm RK when he used to be young and snotty and not old, dead and parental)
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Re: hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other threa

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:34 am

JB, Aldon Smith will be a first rounder...so if they target him they better take him at 6 or work for a trade down. Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but it appears you are saying they could take one of the WRs at 6 and then Aldon in the second.

The more I think about the draft, however, the more I think a trade down might happen. If one of the studs doesnt drop (Dareus, Peterson), I could see Heckert looking to move back and grab a front 7 guy, as you mention. Smith, Watt, and Kerrigan all appear to be options at DE and available in the middle of rd 1.
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Re: hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other threa

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:39 am

JacksonDysonJackson wrote:JB, Aldon Smith will be a first rounder...so if they target him they better take him at 6 or work for a trade down. Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but it appears you are saying they could take one of the WRs at 6 and then Aldon in the second.

The more I think about the draft, however, the more I think a trade down might happen. If one of the studs doesnt drop (Dareus, Peterson), I could see Heckert looking to move back and grab a front 7 guy, as you mention. Smith, Watt, and Kerrigan all appear to be options at DE and available in the middle of rd 1.


Yeah prolly. Almost certainly. Heckert shows he like to move from the Hardesty deal lst year. How high would they have to trade back up you think? Minny at 12 seems about slotted where Smith might go at high side. Highest I've seen him is 13th best rated.

Shoot me for this, but I read elswhere that Hammer (sorry) was floating that there was a rumor that Cleveland was trying to trade next year's one and this year's two to get back into round one. This has to be from Lombardi to Goildhammer, BTW. That's clearly his "source" from the Haden-is-a-bust TC debacle. It actually makes sense for Minny in that the 2012 QB class puts this one to shame and if I were betting on value I'd bet we suck next season (schedule notwithstanding).
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Re: hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other threa

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:55 am

Hard to say, but the middle of rd 1 would be a safe bet.

FWIW...CBS Sports most recent rankings (today) has Watt at 14, Kerrigan at 15, and Smith at 19.

http://www.cbssports.com/#!/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2011

I understand this isn't a mock, so it may not be a true reflection on where they will be drafted...but probably pretty close.

I hadn't heard that rumor...but I wouldn't be against it. This draft is heavy with 1st round D talent. My only slight concern is that, by giving away our 2nd, we may miss on a guy with a first round grade that slips to us, because of the QBs and general lunacy by the Raiders, Cincy, etc. But if they get two guys they truly value, you can't really argue with that.
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Re: hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other threa

Unread postby Loo » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:45 pm

I'm not sure I like that strategy (trading back into first round) this year, but maybe CLE's war room has a guy in mind they absolutely love (I'm guessing it's either a DT or a CB).

I wouldn't, as it's pretty unlikely a highly ranked DT or CB wouldn't fall to #37. DTs being Paea and Austin and the CBs being Smith, Williams and Harris.

Order for me would be Smith, Austin, Paea, Williams Harris. But all look really good.
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Re: hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other threa

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:57 pm

JacksonDysonJackson wrote:Hard to say, but the middle of rd 1 would be a safe bet.

FWIW...CBS Sports most recent rankings (today) has Watt at 14, Kerrigan at 15, and Smith at 19.

http://www.cbssports.com/#!/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2011

I understand this isn't a mock, so it may not be a true reflection on where they will be drafted...but probably pretty close.




Tell you what; can't quite seem to recall a draft so dependent upon what team's systems value what.
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Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:24 pm

Loo...I've seen many mocks that have Paea there for us in the second.

I'm pretty much in love with the idea of going de/dt or dt/de with our first 2 picks. Sooo much GD talent on the d-line in this draft.

JB -- I hear ya. Its weird to think about how much a kid's fate hangs on what team (system) drafts him.
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Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:41 pm

JacksonDysonJackson wrote:Loo...I've seen many mocks that have Paea there for us in the second.

I'm pretty much in love with the idea of going de/dt or dt/de with our first 2 picks. Sooo much GD talent on the d-line in this draft.

JB -- I hear ya. Its weird to think about how much a kid's fate hangs on what team (system) drafts him.


SD:

I might be in the minority but I believe Heywood has more value as a DE than inside .

He understands the base fundamental of a rush DE bring down the rabbit by any means necessary .

He's not 4.6 straight line fast , but he's 4.8 with tracking speed and a power and strength combo complimented by quicks
plus he's long.

In the fourth quarter he'll start whereing down OT wheras a lighter guy will be the one who pays the toll.

Good LDE where you often face most running plays , with athleticism a RT doesn't usually face.

Could be an angle if rumors come true Heckert values Fairley more than a DE coming off knee surgery and another who hasn't played for a yaer and has a brain tumor ta boot.

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Re: hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other threa

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:58 pm

jb wrote:
Matt van: I guess I read 'vanilla' and am thinking having a speed guy off theedge isn't that wild and crazy - still vanilla to me but perhaps a lot less so than what we expected (feared) out of Jauron.



I think the key is the word "vanilla".

I think of vanilla as more base tendency read and react, not merely the absence of Rex Ryan going UFO ad crazy stuff. I generally think of a standard 4 - 3 as requiring a LDE that is in the 280 range that cn play run adn well as passs and a RDE that can do same but is a little more quick and light, maybe 270. The interior players can be 300.

But if you say your DE's top out around 250 -- and for comparison's sake Quinn weighed in at 265 for example -- you are talking a pair of Tampa 2 type speed ends. The only way they play the run is on the way to the QB. You are talking an attack squad. You also need rotation badly or these guys will be ground down. Personnel-wise, this is almost a 2 - 5 base D .

The only way to support these guys is with beheimoth DT's. They can be athletic and one gap guys, think Sapp, but they need to be large. We're talking 325 - 350 ... or more. Rubin fits that mold. Then you have..... Shaefer beer and pulses.

Even if / when UFA hits late, the Browns have about, uh, 3 / 4 players who MAY be able to do this, and 2 are unsigned in Mitchell and Roth . Rubin is one for DT, and then MAYBE that one Tweener kid whose name is escaping me and I'm too lazy, but he's alway hurt can put a hand on the ground again.

But points are these:

- This sort of DL personnel grouping is by it's nature anything but vanilla. They may not do all the Bellichickian X's and O's chicanery skullduggery BS and just get atcha, but they will attack. Thus the philosophy on D is changing just as it is on O to an intitaive based orientation rather than a react strategy based orientation. IOW, wed ont care what you do. Here is what we do. And here we come.


I see you working - it's just that "vanilla" and "attacking" threw me a bit. If the DE tarot cards are interpretd correctly, it does imply, for lack of a better term, a Tampa 2 type of D. Keep in mind though that the typical Tampa 2 only "attacks" from the DE and maybe the 3 technique DT - little or no LB or CB or S blitzes. Maybe WLB sometime, but pressure is usually from with the down 4 the vast majority of the time.


- We have absolutely a paucrity or personnell to play this sceme. Get ready for a boatload of front 7 defenders to be drafted. Gut says they will go Green or Jones at 1 an dthen load up on these guys, starting possibly with Aldon Smith. The 'zona kids ater also fit mold hand in glove.http://bleacherreport.com/articles/601009-aldon-smith-the-biggest-wild-card-in-the-2011-nfl-draft

Absolutely. Need a huge improvement in team speed, attitude, and ability to tackle in the open field. Don't see a current LB that really fits the T2 MLB or WLB mold.

What I haven't figured out is the DB situation, and if they play zone cover two, how any DB's we need. If I were betting with your money, I'd bet on a UFA band aid and no more than one late round nickle prospect.


Easier to find a basic Cover 2 corner who tackles well than it is to find a Patrick Peterson. My big concern is how to generate a pass rush with just the front 4 - something this team has never, ever, done well.
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Re: hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other threa

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:02 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:Could be an angle if rumors come true Heckert values Fairley more than a DE coming off knee surgery and another who hasn't played for a yaer and has a brain tumor ta boot.



Picking the best DLineman on the field this year would NOT break my heart Thursday.

Fairly attacks and penetrates and Big Tyba stays home.

Now gimme some gunners disguised as DE's an you can run that D . And they can probably find a way to pick those guys up in a hell-deep DE draft, plus they have Mitchell and Bernard to roll the dice on the roster and maybe Roth for rotation.

There's just a shit-load of DE's who fit this mold this draft:

http://walterfootball.com/draft2011DE.php

I could be like Keith Murray in a MMJ store with that list and the Browns' DE needs. Take Fairly and just load up on about 3 of these prospects w/ a WR mixed in and you could do alot worse even if ur name ain't Tommy Prothro.

Agree Heyward has a shot to bulk up and play some 3 tech DT. Not a small man. But I think a more likely choice if Farily is number one would be like a Rick Elmore at 2.

And I could sure enough dig that 1 / 2 .
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Re: hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other threa

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:12 pm

My big concern is how to generate a pass rush with just the front 4 - something this team has never, ever, done well.


There was this one game, against Baltimore before I was born...

Yeah , I know. But we never stick with crap. You can't hang that on this crew. Had Courtney been healthy and Warren been Seymour, they'd have nailed it in V 2.1 IMO. But RAC had to go 3 - 4 and Fredinand the Bull Brown had to have a glass knee...

I'm stopping now.

This org is now a pass-first WCO and attack 4 - 3 stop the pass D . They will remake themselves into that image from a slow, cerebral X's and O's digits team .

Let's hope they are more competenat than what you and I grew up with and got used to.
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Re: hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other threa

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:01 pm

jb wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:Could be an angle if rumors come true Heckert values Fairley more than a DE coming off knee surgery and another who hasn't played for a yaer and has a brain tumor ta boot.



Picking the best DLineman on the field this year would NOT break my heart Thursday.

Fairly attacks and penetrates and Big Tyba stays home.

Now gimme some gunners disguised as DE's an you can run that D . And they can probably find a way to pick those guys up in a hell-deep DE draft, plus they have Mitchell and Bernard to roll the dice on the roster and maybe Roth for rotation.

There's just a shit-load of DE's who fit this mold this draft:

http://walterfootball.com/draft2011DE.php

I could be like Keith Murray in a MMJ store with that list and the Browns' DE needs. Take Fairly and just load up on about 3 of these prospects w/ a WR mixed in and you could do alot worse even if ur name ain't Tommy Prothro.

Agree Heyward has a shot to bulk up and play some 3 tech DT. Not a small man. But I think a more likely choice if Farily is number one would be like a Rick Elmore at 2.

And I could sure enough dig that 1 / 2 .


I'm really starting to warm on Fairly. I was down on him because he only had one year of production and he has perceived work ethic problems, but I just keep coming back to his dominance this season. The dude was simply unblockable at times, He plays with a nastiness and mean streak that would immediately give our D an edge. The more I think about him, the more I'm reminded of Warren Sapp.
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Re: hecekert on the DE's ( thread continued from other threa

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:51 pm

jb wrote:
My big concern is how to generate a pass rush with just the front 4 - something this team has never, ever, done well.


There was this one game, against Baltimore before I was born...

Yeah , I know. But we never stick with crap. You can't hang that on this crew. Had Courtney been healthy and Warren been Seymour, they'd have nailed it in V 2.1 IMO. But RAC had to go 3 - 4 and Fredinand the Bull Brown had to have a glass knee...

I'm stopping now.

This org is now a pass-first WCO and attack 4 - 3 stop the pass D . They will remake themselves into that image from a slow, cerebral X's and O's digits team .

Let's hope they are more competenat than what you and I grew up with and got used to.


We are in lock step on this...........

but the "attack 4-3" moniker makes me laugh my ass off. Hard to attack anything with Kenyon Coleman at DE. Maybe Grenada.

I know this is what you believe (fervently hope) but it still sounds funny. "The Browns attacking 4-3 defense laid waste to the Steelers offense at CBS yesterday".......just sounds so nonsensical. Like writing "the hot chicks of Jersey Shore".

Wait, that last part came out wrong :hide:
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