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Dumb Question

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Dumb Question

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:46 am

OK, maybe I AM the one having a brain fart here.....

1. Relating to Rob Gronkowski and his tough day. The fair-catch mishap on the first kickoff is a sign of a rookie not understanding the situation. When you're an upback on the kickoff return team, on that wing, if the ball is coming to you and you make a fair-catch signal, that tells everyone else that you've got it. They all expect you to catch it because you've made the fair-catch signal. You've committed. You absolutely cannot make a fair-catch signal and then expect someone else to catch it. It's almost like baseball, when a player says "I got it!" Once you say "I got it!" you have to make the catch.


Pretty sure I've read something like this in a few places now..........

A kick-off is a live ball, is it not? Isn't fair catching not an option at all? Wouldn't your hands team be able to fair catch a floating onside kick if that was legal?

Why do I keep reading that his mistake was not catching the fair catch after calling it, in lieu of people calling him out for trying to fair catch a kickoff in the first place? What am I missing here?

Maybe I'm just completely forgetting a rule here, because its hard for me to believe I'm the only one catching this....

More likely I'm the only idiot who doesn't understand the rules governing the situation.

What do I know?
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:02 pm

I think the receiving team always has the option of a fair catch, be it a punt or a kickoff, although like you I'm not entirely certain.

I think the difference with the onside kick situation it that the kicker kicks the ball into the ground and tries to get it to make a bounce that his team can recover. I think if the kicker just popped it up ten yards downfield the receiving team would absolutely have the option of fair catching it. The option disappears when the ball hits the ground.

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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:11 pm

Yes. Any kick, punt or kickoff, can be fair caught. One major difference between fair catching a punt and fair catching a kickoff is that the kickoff is a free kick. Where a punt returner deep in his own territory may call for a fair catch and let the ball bounce on the ground in the hope that the ball will bounce into the end zone for a touchback, the kick returner must catch the ball due to the fact that a kickoff is a free kick and the team that recovers a free kick is awarded possession of the ball.



Yes. However, according to NFL Rules: " If ball hits ground or is touched by member of kicking team in flight, fair catch signal is off and all rules for a kicked ball apply.


I guess I its just pretty rare to see someone call a fair catch on a kickoff that I didn't realize you could.
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:12 pm

JCoz wrote:OK, maybe I AM the one having a brain fart here.....

1. Relating to Rob Gronkowski and his tough day. The fair-catch mishap on the first kickoff is a sign of a rookie not understanding the situation. When you're an upback on the kickoff return team, on that wing, if the ball is coming to you and you make a fair-catch signal, that tells everyone else that you've got it. They all expect you to catch it because you've made the fair-catch signal. You've committed. You absolutely cannot make a fair-catch signal and then expect someone else to catch it. It's almost like baseball, when a player says "I got it!" Once you say "I got it!" you have to make the catch.


Pretty sure I've read something like this in a few places now..........

A kick-off is a live ball, is it not? Isn't fair catching not an option at all? Wouldn't your hands team be able to fair catch a floating onside kick if that was legal?

Why do I keep reading that his mistake was not catching the fair catch after calling it, in lieu of people calling him out for trying to fair catch a kickoff in the first place? What am I missing here?

Maybe I'm just completely forgetting a rule here, because its hard for me to believe I'm the only one catching this....

More likely I'm the only idiot who doesn't understand the rules governing the situation.

What do I know?


SD:

fair catches have to be honored at all times , its why onside kicks are bounded on the ground which eliminates the return team fromusing the fair catch signal .

and yes even if a ball only goes ten yards if its caught cleanly in the air after the return team has signaled it has to be honored , but most onside kicks are such bang bang plays and kickers being as proficient as they are rarely do you see this opportunity avail itself.

Also at the end of a half or game there is a long forgotten rule called a free kick where you can drop kick a Fg attempt from the spot of the fair catch, IIRC its applicable with a punt catch or a kickoff .

The problem however is you must execute a manuever where by the ball is bounced off the ground to execute the kick , which went out of fashion with the modern balls as they were more eliptical than round and the kick bounce manuever became too unpredictable .

Doug Flutie in his last game as a Pat was the last time I ever saw this play performed , that he made it with a modern ball and he wasn't a dedicated kicker made it even more noteworthy.


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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:22 pm

SD - Didn't Adam Vinatieri or somebody pull off one of those dropkicks just a few years ago?
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby Love child of shawn kemp » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:41 pm

After a fair catch, you get a free kick. It may be a drop kick or a normal field goal attempt. The opposing team has to line up ten yards off the line of scrimmage. Flutie drop kicked a PAT attempt in 2006.
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby jb » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:43 pm

Love child of shawn kemp wrote:Flutie drop kicked a PAT attempt in 2006.



A drop kick?

How much is that worth?
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby pup » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:43 pm

jb wrote:
Love child of shawn kemp wrote:Flutie drop kicked a PAT attempt in 2006.



A drop kick?

How much is that worth?


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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:46 pm

pup wrote:
jb wrote:
Love child of shawn kemp wrote:Flutie drop kicked a PAT attempt in 2006.



A drop kick?

How much is that worth?


1


SD:

As a PAT that would be correct , butt executed as a free kick its worth three.

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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby jb » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:48 pm

Three points?
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:51 pm

Motherscratcher wrote:SD - Didn't Adam Vinatieri or somebody pull off one of those dropkicks just a few years ago?


SD:

Flutie was the only one i saw pull it off in recent memory and Mumbles was the only coach i even saw attempt it in 40 years , even though others may have done so .

It was used as a novelty quirk gift for the record books he gave in passing to Flutie, moreso than a relevant viable play , on his way to the the unemployment line.

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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:19 pm

Is the ball even snapped on a free kick, I thought not.
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby jb » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:27 pm

Three points for that?

That's bullshit.
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:29 pm

I'm probably wrong, shocking, but either way I cannot see the point of bouncing the ball for the kick.
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby yogi » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:32 pm

Since no one else has acknowledged JB's tribute to Nitsche & the original "The Longest Yard", I will.

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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:48 pm

yogi wrote:Since no one else has acknowledged JB's tribute to Nitsche & the original "The Longest Yard", I will.

Well played Granny!


SD:

Thats cartoons , i didn't know that counted :)

I think maybe Blanda might have tried one in a game I was watching but i can't be sure , the only other time it even comes to mind is mention of it being tried on a radio broadcast and i think that was the lions playing the inbred closer to 50 years ago than 40 before I saw Bellichich have Flutie attempt it .

Other than that you'd have to look at some 30's 40's footage when the ball was dman near round to see examples in both College and the pro's

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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby danwismar » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:07 pm

If you'll accept Wikipedia as an authoritative source, here is the rule for free kick following a fair catch. The page includes every time it has been tried since 1933, complete with results. Last successful one was in 1976 by Ray Wersching of the Chargers.

It does not have to be a drop kick. It can be tried off the ground with a holder. It can also be tried off a punt, or off a free kick following a safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_catch_kick

Edit: Of course this makes the answer to Coz's initial question obvious...Yes, you can fair catch a kickoff. It's useful if, for example you're behind with only a second or two left in the game, and you think you have a better shot to score by running a play from scrimmage than you do of running the kickoff back for a TD.

Then there's the question of judgment on what defines an "onside kick" attempt. You can't set up different rules for touching or fair catching for "onside" kickoff than what you have for "regular" kickoff, because one man's onside kick is another's pooch kick.

This rule is one reason the onside kick attempts almost always are designed to hit the ground first, and then pop up.
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:29 pm

wiz1001 wrote:If you'll accept Wikipedia as an authoritative source, here is the rule for free kick following a fair catch. The page includes every time it has been tried since 1933, complete with results. Last successful one was in 1976 by Ray Wersching of the Packers.

It does not have to be a drop kick. It can be tried off the ground with a holder. It can also be tried off a punt, or off a free kick following a safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_catch_kick

Edit: Of course this makes the answer to Coz's initial question obvious...Yes, you can fair catch a kickoff. It's useful if, for example you're behind with only a second or two left in the game, and you think you have a better shot to score by running a play from scrimmage than you do of running the kickoff back for a TD.

Then there's the question of judgment on what defines an "onside kick" attempt. You can't set up different rules for touching or fair catching for "onside" kickoff than what you have for "regular" kickoff, because one man's onside kick is another's pooch kick.

This rule is one reason the onside kick attempts almost always are designed to hit the ground first, and then pop up.


SD:

Thanks for that reminder forgot you could use a holder on your attempt if you wanted , you just weren't allowed a tee

Never made much sensee when announcers would mention it as an option in play on kickoffs when the sport became popular on TV, because most of them allways went so deep and Dempseys 63 yarder was the longest up until then until recently tied and that was executed indoors .

But you know when the goal posts were moved in ten yards at each end instead of the 120 yards apart as they are now ; a fair caught kickoff at your 40 gave you a long shot chance and caught at the fifty or closer after a safety was very doable .


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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:43 pm

Yes, players can fair catch kickoffs. As the excerpt states, the person making the signal must be the one to attempt the catch.
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby Lubber » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:57 pm

Not sure if college rules are different, or if rules for punts are different then kickoffs. However, this Saturday ( I cannot remember which game it was), but I saw a guy call a fair catch on a punt after the ball had bounced once. The ref honored it, but I have never seen that before, and was not sure it is legal or not.
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Re: Dumb Question

Unread postby daddywags » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:20 pm

Prior to 1991, you could drop kick a FG attempt from any place on the field (even beyond the LOS). I think they should change that rule back. You never know - multiple hook and lateral play with Phil Dawson as the last one to get the ball and - WHAM! game winning field goal. The suits just suck the life out of the No Fun League, don't they?
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