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Young talent; Core players litmus test

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Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:28 am

I was trying to find the old quotes from Savage talking about # of core players he was always after (no matter how well said players actually complimented each other or the coaching schemes) but I couldn't.

What do you guys see when you look below in regards to "core players" and sustainability compared to years past, and how does this maybe differ from say 2007, where hopes were high yet as we all clearly understand now was smoke and mirrors...

This is a list of players who are either possible core players or already are core players; if I've left a contributors name off, its probably because I dont see them on the team past this or next season, but I could have missed one, so let me know:

One comment I will add first is that obviously this list and team outlook hinge heavily on the guy under center becoming a real core player at the most important position.

Under 30:

QB Colt McCoy 24
FB Peyton Hillis 24
FB Lawrence Vickers 27
RB Montereo Hardesty 23
LT Joe Thomas 25
C Alex Mack 24
RG Shawn Lauvao 23
WR Mo Mass 24
TE Evan Moore 25
NT Ahtyba Rubin 24
LB Chris Gocong 27
LB Matt Roth 28
LB Marcus Bernard 25
CB Joe Haden 21
S TJ Ward 24
KR/WR Josh Cribbs 27

30 on up

LG Eric Steinbach 30
TE Ben Watson 30
LB Scott Fujita 31
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Re: Young talent; core players litmus test

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:41 am

I guess it depends what you mean by core players. Players that are irreplaceable? Those are few and far between so let's call core players "players who it would be very difficult to replace at their current level of production."

Core Players:

Joe Thomas
Alex Mack
TJ Ward
Peyton Hillis
Larry Vickers
Josh Cribbs
Ahtyba Rubin

I think I'm being generous too. There are other potential core players in your list, but nobody I feel comfortable putting there just let. Rubin might already be a stretch.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:42 am

Oh Yeah, don't forget about Robiskie.
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Re: Young talent; core players litmus test

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:55 am

Motherscratcher wrote:I guess it depends what you mean by core players. Players that are irreplaceable? Those are few and far between so let's call core players "players who it would be very difficult to replace at their current level of production."

Core Players:

Joe Thomas
Alex Mack
TJ Ward
Peyton Hillis
Larry Vickers
Josh Cribbs
Ahtyba Rubin

I think I'm being generous too. There are other potential core players in your list, but nobody I feel comfortable putting there just let. Rubin might already be a stretch.


No Rubin is def a core player.

I think you need to define it as guys you are going to move forward with as opposed to guys you are actively trying to replace.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:31 am

Motherscratcher wrote:Oh Yeah, don't forget about Robiskie.

Says opposing defensive coordinators.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:32 am

Personally I define core players as somewhere in the middle of your two definitions. Players that are showing promise, young and that you can build around.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:40 am

FUDU wrote:Personally I define core players as somewhere in the middle of your two definitions. Players that are showing promise, young and that you can build around.


I guess I don't see how that separates from my own description at all.
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Re: Young talent; core players litmus test

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:56 am

JCoz wrote:
Motherscratcher wrote:I guess it depends what you mean by core players. Players that are irreplaceable? Those are few and far between so let's call core players "players who it would be very difficult to replace at their current level of production."

Core Players:

Joe Thomas
Alex Mack
TJ Ward
Peyton Hillis
Larry Vickers
Josh Cribbs
Ahtyba Rubin

I think I'm being generous too. There are other potential core players in your list, but nobody I feel comfortable putting there just let. Rubin might already be a stretch.


No Rubin is def a core player.

I think you need to define it as guys you are going to move forward with as opposed to guys you are actively trying to replace.


I think that definition may be a bit too broad. Take a guy like Hardesty. You aren't necessarily actively trying to replace him. He has a lot of potential. He might become a core player. But you certainly cannot call him that right now.

Same with Haden, and this is in no way a slam. He shows a lot of promise and upside, but we just don't know yet. Two years ago, by your definition, Brady Quinn was a core player as we weren't actively trying to replace him.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:59 am

My ? Coz would be who are we actively trying to replace, right now?

EWrong doesn't count b/c we need to dig his hole in the ground first, then worry about replacing him.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:00 pm

I agree with what you are saying, however my list was not core players, it was possibles like you just mentioned (Colt, haden, hardesty, mo mass, moore, gocong, roth, bernard) along with actual core players (IMO) like Thomas, mack, rubin, cribbs, vickers, ward, steinbach, Fujita, watson...
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:06 pm

FUDU wrote:My ? Coz would be who are we actively trying to replace, right now?

EWrong doesn't count b/c we need to dig his hole in the ground first, then worry about replacing him.


Of course "right now" I really dont mean this season or instant....

QB
RB
Possibly all/most of the WR's
The right side of the line
Elam
Easy E
Sheldon Brown
I would say all the LBers could be fair game I am still not sure what we've got there past 1-2 years.
All DE's
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:13 pm

You realize you are suggesting replacing 80% of the defense, and 70% of the offense?

I personally do not think we need that much over turn, get a difference maker on each side of the ball and that will allow you to hang on to many of these guys until you surely find a hands down better quality player.

My 2 cents.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:20 pm

FUDU wrote:You realize you are suggesting replacing 80% of the defense, and 70% of the offense?

I personally do not think we need that much over turn, get a difference maker on each side of the ball and that will allow you to hang on to many of these guys until you surely find a hands down better quality player.

My 2 cents.


Well, positions can be filled by the possibles I pointed out FUDU. I hope we already have several of those players on the roster.

Maybe Colt, lauvao, Hardesty Haden Moore and one or two LBers end up core players, I dont know.

but certainly Brown, Elam, Either DE and Maybe RT replacements will have to come from outside the current roster....
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby noles1 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:33 pm

We get a WR and a pass rusher and this team is really on to something, IMO.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:32 pm

noles1 wrote:We get a WR and a pass rusher and this team is really on to something, IMO.


Yes.
And a LB who is good in coverage and doesn't weigh 250+
And a RT

Could be done in one draft. We just might be close. Very.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby jb » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:26 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
noles1 wrote:We get a WR and a pass rusher and this team is really on to something, IMO.


Yes.
And a LB who is good in coverage and doesn't weigh 250+
And a RT

Could be done in one draft. We just might be close. Very.



Can't see that as needed in our D system, matt. Not what we do.

Now RT? Hecks yeah. And certainly a doable proposition in about round 3 or 4. Blowing on Loadholdt for the glimmer twins Veikune and biske still makes me throw up in my mouth.

OK, now here is the crazy assed thought for the day...


Jerruh has to be in full crazy for now an dthe foreseeable future. As much as I'm tempted to lock onto McCoy, I am also tempted to take penny stock I got at its low and sell it at it's possibly overvalued zeinith.

I heard somewhere that Jerruh is in full man-love with Colt McCoy. Assuming that Cleveland's and St Ann's own Jason Garrett can't change the trajectory of that runaway train and they have a top 4 pick, can we reverse Herschel them if Colt plays like he has so far? That being better than serviceable, poised, mistake free, some upside, but not showing true franchise QB tools to be an offensive centerpiece? Do we have the balls to trade away what could be Drew Brees II if we could get something like this: DeMarcus Ware, their number one, and Dez Bryant for Colt and our first rounder?

Is Jerruh that nuts / desperate?

If not that balls out trade, then what would it take to get Ware? Could we deal our number one and mak ethat happen if Dallas thinks they need a small rebuild ( Jerruh's ego making that doubtful tho ) ?

IMhO, Ware or his clone plus a young stud DE who can help cave the pile are what separates the Browns D from good to great (you move Fajita inside BTW).
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby RickNashEquilibrium » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:56 pm

jb wrote:OK, now here is the crazy assed thought for the day...


Jerruh has to be in full crazy for now an dthe foreseeable future. As much as I'm tempted to lock onto McCoy, I am also tempted to take penny stock I got at its low and sell it at it's possibly overvalued zeinith.

I heard somewhere that Jerruh is in full man-love with Colt McCoy. Assuming that Cleveland's and St Ann's own Jason Garrett can't change the trajectory of that runaway train and they have a top 4 pick, can we reverse Herschel them if Colt plays like he has so far? That being better than serviceable, poised, mistake free, some upside, but not showing true franchise QB tools to be an offensive centerpiece? Do we have the balls to trade away what could be Drew Brees II if we could get something like this: DeMarcus Ware, their number one, and Dez Bryant for Colt and our first rounder?

Is Jerruh that nuts / desperate?

If not that balls out trade, then what would it take to get Ware? Could we deal our number one and mak ethat happen if Dallas thinks they need a small rebuild ( Jerruh's ego making that doubtful tho ) ?

IMhO, Ware or his clone plus a young stud DE who can help cave the pile are what separates the Browns D from good to great (you move Fajita inside BTW).


Even if Colt starts to slide by season's end, I'm not sure you can do that trade considering his poise thus far in his rookie season. No player, QB especially, is ever a lock and a trade of that magnitude is still hoping on fools gold to nail a franchise QB in the draft. I can't see the positives outweighing the negatives when you factor in the book will still be out on Colt at the end of the season.

Basically, weighing 75% of Colt's rookie season (unless he plays TERRRRIBLE here on out) vs the value of D Ware, Dez, and a Luck/Locker/Mallet(yuck) is a HUGE risk. The sample size of Colt's rookie season (whether it ends good or bad) is too small to pull the trigger on a deal like this when the pivot of the trade is the hardest position to fill in all of football. Hell, the '85 Bears would've been screwed if Ryan Leaf, Mike Phipps, or Todd Marinovich were at the helm.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby jb » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:40 am

I think the Bears would have still won a SB with Phipps and Marajuanavich. FWIW.

The real question may be what could we get in compensation for Mike Holmgren?
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:46 am

The Bears could have had William Perry at RB and still won it all.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby jb » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:49 am

JCoz wrote:I was trying to find the old quotes from Savage talking about # of core players he was always after (no matter how well said players actually complimented each other or the coaching schemes) but I couldn't.

What do you guys see when you look below in regards to "core players" and sustainability compared to years past, and how does this maybe differ from say 2007, where hopes were high yet as we all clearly understand now was smoke and mirrors...

This is a list of players who are either possible core players or already are core players; if I've left a contributors name off, its probably because I dont see them on the team past this or next season, but I could have missed one, so let me know:

One comment I will add first is that obviously this list and team outlook hinge heavily on the guy under center becoming a real core player at the most important position.

Under 30:

QB Colt McCoy 24
FB Peyton Hillis 24
FB Lawrence Vickers 27
RB Montereo Hardesty 23
LT Joe Thomas 25
C Alex Mack 24
RG Shawn Lauvao 23
WR Mo Mass 24
TE Evan Moore 25
NT Ahtyba Rubin 24
LB Chris Gocong 27
LB Matt Roth 28
LB Marcus Bernard 25
CB Joe Haden 21
S TJ Ward 24
KR/WR Josh Cribbs 27

30 on up

LG Eric Steinbach 30
TE Ben Watson 30
LB Scott Fujita 31


I can't base "core" on potential.

Take out maybe 4 guys and I agree with your list.
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Re: Young talent; core players litmus test

Unread postby jb » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:53 am

Motherscratcher wrote:Rubin might already be a stretch.




Image


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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby JCoz » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:07 pm

JB, my list was of possible core players, I was kind of looking for others to make list from those players.

Certainly several of them wouldn't make my list of who I think are core players moving forward.
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Re: Young talent; Core players litmus test

Unread postby jb » Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:05 pm

JCoz wrote:JB, my list was of possible core players, I was kind of looking for others to make list from those players.

Certainly several of them wouldn't make my list of who I think are core players moving forward.



My bad.

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