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Well Put Hiko

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Well Put Hiko

Unread postby swerb » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:29 am

When the clear realistic goal is for this team to next year be able to win 10 games and win in the playoffs ... what's happening this season is the absolute best case scenario, right?

Go through an absolute meat grinder of a schedule. Play all these teams tough. Couple key injuries (Delhomme) or massive case of the sucks (Wright, Elam) to guys that are not part of the future so yoots (Haden, McCoy) can get PT.

We can see clear progress. Feel good about the team and the direction. And still get the #5 and #37 overall draft picks. With the potential of not having to burn one on a QB ... a prospect that seemed unthinkable just 5 days ago.

http://theclevelandfan.com/cleveland-br ... r-week-six

This is not a team to be ashamed of. But the final record will not reflect that, as the injuries continue to mount and the schedule continues to extract its evil toll.

Halloween should be envious of the terror that the Browns' schedule has brought. This road through NFL hollow is fraught with peril. Beware the headless man.

Except for the one team they beat, every team they've played has a winning record. Their opponents have a 20-12 combined record, which is pretty impressive until you consider that the Browns' next 3 opponents - the Saints, Jets, and Pats - have a combined 13-4 record.

Cleveland's last 7 games get a bit easier, but 5 of those 7 teams have a combined 16-11 mark at this point. The overall W-L differential is brought down only by the Bills and Panthers: 0-10 together.

Take out Buffalo and Carolina, and the combined records of the teams the Browns play in the other 14 contests is a whopping 49-27.

Bela Lugosi's Big Bag of Morphine!

But, lo! Take heart, ye lost souls! One would normally deem it nigh impossible to find a silver lining in a season like this, but I can't help but feel optimistic. And very curious to see more of Colt McCoy, who should undoubtedly start the rest of the season (barring inevitable injury, of course). The Browns may finish 4-12, and as long as they are hanging tough and making it a game against these clearly more talented teams, there is not only hope but a nice high draft pick waiting for them at the end of the charcoal rainbow.

The past barrage of 4 and 5 win seasons were fraught with a sense of directionlessness. Wandering around, hoping to accidentally stumble upon a winning formula (like in 2007). I do not sense that now. I sense that this organization is finally in the hands of Professionals, and they will acquire the missing talent and they will make the necessary moves and they will finally deliver this franchise from the laughing-stock status we have dis-enjoyed for so long now.

Chortle if you will, but this sentiment is no trick. Someday, with luck, we may be in for a treat.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:10 am

swerb wrote:When the clear realistic goal is for this team to next year be able to win 10 games and win in the playoffs ... what's happening this season is the absolute best case scenario, right?

Go through an absolute meat grinder of a schedule. Play all these teams tough. Couple key injuries (Delhomme) or massive case of the sucks (Wright, Elam) to guys that are not part of the future so yoots (Haden, McCoy) can get PT.

We can see clear progress. Feel good about the team and the direction. And still get the #5 and #37 overall draft picks. With the potential of not having to burn one on a QB ... a prospect that seemed unthinkable just 5 days ago.

http://theclevelandfan.com/cleveland-br ... r-week-six

This is not a team to be ashamed of. But the final record will not reflect that, as the injuries continue to mount and the schedule continues to extract its evil toll.

Halloween should be envious of the terror that the Browns' schedule has brought. This road through NFL hollow is fraught with peril. Beware the headless man.

Except for the one team they beat, every team they've played has a winning record. Their opponents have a 20-12 combined record, which is pretty impressive until you consider that the Browns' next 3 opponents - the Saints, Jets, and Pats - have a combined 13-4 record.

Cleveland's last 7 games get a bit easier, but 5 of those 7 teams have a combined 16-11 mark at this point. The overall W-L differential is brought down only by the Bills and Panthers: 0-10 together.

Take out Buffalo and Carolina, and the combined records of the teams the Browns play in the other 14 contests is a whopping 49-27.

Bela Lugosi's Big Bag of Morphine!

But, lo! Take heart, ye lost souls! One would normally deem it nigh impossible to find a silver lining in a season like this, but I can't help but feel optimistic. And very curious to see more of Colt McCoy, who should undoubtedly start the rest of the season (barring inevitable injury, of course). The Browns may finish 4-12, and as long as they are hanging tough and making it a game against these clearly more talented teams, there is not only hope but a nice high draft pick waiting for them at the end of the charcoal rainbow.

The past barrage of 4 and 5 win seasons were fraught with a sense of directionlessness. Wandering around, hoping to accidentally stumble upon a winning formula (like in 2007). I do not sense that now. I sense that this organization is finally in the hands of Professionals, and they will acquire the missing talent and they will make the necessary moves and they will finally deliver this franchise from the laughing-stock status we have dis-enjoyed for so long now.

Chortle if you will, but this sentiment is no trick. Someday, with luck, we may be in for a treat.



Guess you have to be here to appreciate it the fact this team is better and that this team is playing their collective sack off for Mangini. Because dead center in the CNN/SI Truth & Rumors section last night was the first time I saw "Gruden Ticketed for Browns?" shit again.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:00 am

Mehtinks Magina's fate to now be directly hitched to McCoy's success or failure

Regression will not be an option or we just may see Chucky in C-Town
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby daddywags » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:31 pm

Nicely written piece. A couple thoughts:

- When you are the patsy in a tough division your schedule is always going to be tough. We play 25% of our games against Pittsburgh and Baltimore and almost 40% against those two plus the Bengals. By the luck of the draw, you will almost always end up with a couple of "Atlanta and the Jets at home" type games and a couple of "Buffalo and Jacksonville away" type games on the schedule. Unless they move us to one of the Western divisions, I don't think our schedule is going to be easy any time soon.

- If we don't win at least 6 games, I think Mangini will be gone. It's not what I would do, but it's what I think Holmgren will do. He can't go into a second straight season off a 5-11 or worse record without changing up the coaching staff. It would seem to some as though he just took his $50 million contract to sit back and watch instead of taking charge. Had he chosen Mangini initially, it would be different, but since he was brought here specifically to fix a mess of which Mangini was at least a part, leaving him alone following back-to-back 11 or 12 loss seasons will be extremely difficult.

- I'm not as certain as the national media seem to be that Gruden would be really happy to again work under Holmgren's shadow. I know the two get along very well, but in a sense Gruden "graduated" from Holmgren's school years ago and made it quite well out on his own; does he want to go back?
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:39 pm

That Chucky rumor's been in play since Holmgren took over, mainly because of their past history and the fact that Chucky's from Ohio. I don't think there's any more validity to it now then there was then - it's not like they're revealing "new sources".
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:56 pm

daddywags wrote:When you are the patsy in a tough division your schedule is always going to be tough. We play 25% of our games against Pittsburgh and Baltimore and almost 40% against those two plus the Bengals. By the luck of the draw, you will almost always end up with a couple of "Atlanta and the Jets at home" type games and a couple of "Buffalo and Jacksonville away" type games on the schedule. Unless they move us to one of the Western divisions, I don't think our schedule is going to be easy any time soon.


The NFL schedule is designed so that each team will play 4 games vs last year's 1st place teams, 4 vs 2nd place teams, 4 vs 3rd place teams, and 4 vs last place teams. Every division (except the Wests, as you mentioned), has at least 2 legit teams. The Browns lucked in to a brutal schedule this year, but these things even out.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby daddywags » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:07 pm

CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! wrote:
daddywags wrote:When you are the patsy in a tough division your schedule is always going to be tough. We play 25% of our games against Pittsburgh and Baltimore and almost 40% against those two plus the Bengals. By the luck of the draw, you will almost always end up with a couple of "Atlanta and the Jets at home" type games and a couple of "Buffalo and Jacksonville away" type games on the schedule. Unless they move us to one of the Western divisions, I don't think our schedule is going to be easy any time soon.


The NFL schedule is designed so that each team will play 4 games vs last year's 1st place teams, 4 vs 2nd place teams, 4 vs 3rd place teams, and 4 vs last place teams. Every division (except the Wests, as you mentioned), has at least 2 legit teams. The Browns lucked in to a brutal schedule this year, but these things even out.


I thought we play two entire divisions each season (plus our own) which makes for 14 of the games. This year we're playing the AFC East and NFC South, which is tougher than next year's NFC West and AFC South. It will still look like a tough schedule, though.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:09 pm

daddywags wrote:
CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! wrote:
daddywags wrote:When you are the patsy in a tough division your schedule is always going to be tough. We play 25% of our games against Pittsburgh and Baltimore and almost 40% against those two plus the Bengals. By the luck of the draw, you will almost always end up with a couple of "Atlanta and the Jets at home" type games and a couple of "Buffalo and Jacksonville away" type games on the schedule. Unless they move us to one of the Western divisions, I don't think our schedule is going to be easy any time soon.


The NFL schedule is designed so that each team will play 4 games vs last year's 1st place teams, 4 vs 2nd place teams, 4 vs 3rd place teams, and 4 vs last place teams. Every division (except the Wests, as you mentioned), has at least 2 legit teams. The Browns lucked in to a brutal schedule this year, but these things even out.


I thought we play two entire divisions each season (plus our own) which makes for 14 of the games. This year we're playing the AFC East and NFC South, which is tougher than next year's NFC West and AFC South. It will still look like a tough schedule, though.

Exactly. 2 entire divisions = 2 games vs each of the 4 spots. Plus 2 more of each spot vs our own division, gives us 4 at each spot except our own, which is filled by us playing the other 2 teams in the AFC that finished in the same spot as us.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby daddywags » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:52 pm

Exactly. 2 entire divisions = 2 games vs each of the 4 spots. Plus 2 more of each spot vs our own division, gives us 4 at each spot except our own, which is filled by us playing the other 2 teams in the AFC that finished in the same spot as us.


You're right. I thought about that after I posted. What we're saying amounts to the same thing. Next year's schedule: Home vs. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Jacksonville, Tennessee, Seattle, St. Louis, and AFC East last place team (presumably Buffalo). Away vs. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Houston, Indianapolis, San Francisco, Arizona, and AFC West last place team (who knows? probably Oakland). So it is an easier schedule on the face of it. I could see us being favored in 4 or 5 home games and 3 away games. But if we continue to go 1-5 or 2-4 in our division it will be tough to make up enough ground in the other 10 games to be a serious playoff contender.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:59 pm

? Hiko, do you feel Mangini will be given a chance to ride this out (regardless of the record at the end of the year, IF the team continues to play hard) or should/shouldn't he be given that chance IYO?

I lean with FMB on this, fair or not I think Mangini's fate rests in the hands of Colt, at least in Holmgren's eyes.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:56 pm

FUDU wrote:? Hiko, do you feel Mangini will be given a chance to ride this out (regardless of the record at the end of the year, IF the team continues to play hard) or should/shouldn't he be given that chance IYO?

I lean with FMB on this, fair or not I think Mangini's fate rests in the hands of Colt, at least in Holmgren's eyes.

I think it totally depends on how Holmgren truly viewed Mangini at the end of last season. Sure, he retained him, so that gives the impression that Holmy likes Mangini, but maybe it was just to kill time until the team was good. Maybe he didn't want to make a move with the CBA situation unclear. Maybe he did it to ease his own conscience, and now he can say he "gave Mangini a shot". Maybe he talked to Chucky (or the like) and was told "can you wait til next year?"

It's hard to argue with what a deterrent the lack of talent, lack of depth, injuries, and schedule are. You almost feel like the team is doing the best it possibly can with what it's got.

On the other hand, they blew some winnable games... let me say that again, the blew some games they should have won. And Mangini's not a huge selling point if you're trying to bring in Free Agents.

I think the Colt factor is big too. If Colt plays decent again against the Saints and Mangini still relegates him to the bench for the rest of the season, I don't think that will sit too well with Holmgren at all. Holmy might not be able to restrain himself in such a cirumstance, which would lead to a power struggle, and we all know who'd win that.

But, using the philosophy that Holmgren gave Mangini another shot last year because he believes Mangini is a good coach and deserved it... well, I'd guess that he'd feel the same way after this season too.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:02 pm

daddywags wrote:
Exactly. 2 entire divisions = 2 games vs each of the 4 spots. Plus 2 more of each spot vs our own division, gives us 4 at each spot except our own, which is filled by us playing the other 2 teams in the AFC that finished in the same spot as us.


You're right. I thought about that after I posted. What we're saying amounts to the same thing. Next year's schedule: Home vs. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Jacksonville, Tennessee, Seattle, St. Louis, and AFC East last place team (presumably Buffalo). Away vs. Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Houston, Indianapolis, San Francisco, Arizona, and AFC West last place team (who knows? probably Oakland). So it is an easier schedule on the face of it. I could see us being favored in 4 or 5 home games and 3 away games. But if we continue to go 1-5 or 2-4 in our division it will be tough to make up enough ground in the other 10 games to be a serious playoff contender.


Very true. You really have to at least 3-3 in the division to have any hope at the playoffs, which isn't impossible (even this year).

The AFC South is no picnic, but the NFC West should be easier than the NFC South is this year. But it's impossible to tell who will be good and who won't... I never figured Tampa or KC for 3-2 teams (and 2 of our losses), but there they are.

I just want the damn team to make it through 8 games and still be at least .500 for a change. Just make the 2nd half of the season interesting, for cripes' sake.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby DrPoove » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:22 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
FUDU wrote:I think the Colt factor is big too. If Colt plays decent again against the Saints and Mangini still relegates him to the bench for the rest of the season, I don't think that will sit too well with Holmgren at all. Holmy might not be able to restrain himself in such a cirumstance, which would lead to a power struggle, and we all know who'd win that.

I think if McCoy has another strong showing then Mangini is in a pickle.

You have a bye and Delhomme or Wallace may be healthy. Selling Delhomme over Colt may be tough but Wallace may not be. He was playing well (not great, just well) prior to getting hurt. Do you give him the job back? Holmgren brought those two guys in as well.

Plus you come home where the crowd is going to want to see McCoy. Desperately. Especially if he plays well in the Bayou. You have two tough games in NE and the Jets but the the schedule gets easier before running the AFCN gauntlet at the end.

If you are Mangini, what do you do?

I honestly think that Holmgren will make the QB call whatever it is. He made the call, not Heckert, on drafting McCoy (and bringing in the other two QBs) and I think that even though he hasn't been in the public eye for a while, Holmgren will make the call on the QB.

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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby daddywags » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:38 pm

I honestly think that Holmgren will make the QB call whatever it is. He made the call, not Heckert, on drafting McCoy (and bringing in the other two QBs) and I think that even though he hasn't been in the public eye for a while, Holmgren will make the call on the QB.


It will be a pickle, but for the whole organization, not just Mangini. If Holgmren hangs Mangini out to dry: "You choose," and then criticizes him for the choice, he's not the man, or the team president, I think he is.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:01 am

daddywags wrote:
I honestly think that Holmgren will make the QB call whatever it is. He made the call, not Heckert, on drafting McCoy (and bringing in the other two QBs) and I think that even though he hasn't been in the public eye for a while, Holmgren will make the call on the QB.


It will be a pickle, but for the whole organization, not just Mangini. If Holgmren hangs Mangini out to dry: "You choose," and then criticizes him for the choice, he's not the man, or the team president, I think he is.


Mangini won't need any help from Walrus to hang himself and Walrus is doing just fine by, apparently to this point, not interfering. At least in public.

It doesn't matter how hard they play or how much they like coach, the bottom line is wins and losses...and now, how he handles the QB of the future... and while we don't know if McCoy will actually be The Future, the future is now.

IOW, its time for the HMFIC to up his fuking game or he's just another slug of a HC with an ignirt OC. So far, I haven't seen anything from him to suggest he has no ceiling and a mediocre 8-8 or 10-6 just might be the best he'll ever accomplish.

For moi, this is the worst case scenerio...4-5 yrs of 8-8, 9-7, 10-6, 9-7, 8-8 etc etc etc ala Wayne Fontes

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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby daddywags » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:02 am

Don't disagree with you about wins and losses, I've been saying all along he gets to 6 or 7 wins or he's gone. But if you're looking for the HMFIC's office, it's down the hall on the right. The big one with the corner view. Name on the door is "Holmgren." If he butts his way into the draft to force the pick of his choice at QB that's a good thing, in my view, but shame on him if he sits back and lets said QB get misused because he wants to "let his head coach hang out to dry." We've seen that movie in Cleveland in various sports through the years and it sucks. This is supposed to be a group effort, from the owner's office all the way down to the third stringers' lockers. If we already have head games and power struggles going on before Holmgren even has time to hang pictures up in his office, then we got the wrong guy. Again.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:43 am

Well, we all know Walrus is the REAL HMFIC so I should have been more specific by saying the HMFIC on game day.

For example:

See: Wright, Eric
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby daddywags » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:16 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Well, we all know Walrus is the REAL HMFIC so I should have been more specific by saying the HMFIC on game day.

For example:

See: Wright, Eric


Okay. I don't want to start a pissing match here, but if Holmgren is going to roll up his sleeves and tell our coach who should be the starting CB and who should be the nickle back, then he's way too involved, IMO. But if he's handpicked a QB to groom and he doesn't at least knock on the door and ask "So, what are your thoughts about who plays QB this week?" and share his views, then he's too hands-off, again IMO.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:34 pm

Hiko's column pointed out that Frye, Quinn, Anderson, and Luke McCown all put up impressive numbers in their first start. In fact, Quinn had a 104 rating and Frye was at 136. The other two were almost identical to Colt's numbers and rating. Of course none of their opponents were as good as the Steelers last week, and they probably weren't missing two of their top three WRs, but it still goes to show that just because a young QB puts up good numbers in his first start doesn't mean he's the Guy.

We need to see more of Colt because we probably will have at least a top ten and maybe a top five draft pick and there are three blue chip QBs up for grabs. We can't just play Colt for two games and wonder if he's the Guy or if he's Charlie Frye. If Mangini won't make the call then somebody in the front office has to. We don't want to repeat the Chargers mistake and use a top five pick on Philip Rivers just when Drew Brees is ready to explode.

We could end up in the same situation as two years ago when Sanchez was on the board but Mangini wasn't sure what he had in Brady Quinn. Next April we'll most likely have a shot at one of the top QBs and we need to know what we have.
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:23 am

daddywags wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Well, we all know Walrus is the REAL HMFIC so I should have been more specific by saying the HMFIC on game day.

For example:

See: Wright, Eric


Okay. I don't want to start a pissing match here, but if Holmgren is going to roll up his sleeves and tell our coach who should be the starting CB and who should be the nickle back, then he's way too involved, IMO. But if he's handpicked a QB to groom and he doesn't at least knock on the door and ask "So, what are your thoughts about who plays QB this week?" and share his views, then he's too hands-off, again IMO.


::doh::

JFC do words and thoughts get twisted around here...........

Not a pissing match and not my intent to start one and not saying Holmgren is telling Mangini who to play at freaking CB.

Simply stating that it is my opinion that Walrus is giving Mangini his space and that Eric Wright is a noose around Mangini's neck and he himslef put it there.

Subsequently, I believe Mangini's fate to be tied to how he handles the QB position right fucking now

I do not believe Holmgren is a meddler and yes I'd agree that as the HMFIC he may someday knock on Manginis door and ask him WTF are you doing and I'd be pissed if he didn't. Otherwise he's not a real HMFIC

...and for whomever, whenever, as regards previous QB's of the Browns or any other NFL team, stats are for losers and have absolutely nothing to do with McCoy, Mangini or Holmgren

They're pretty to look at and pass around as faux proof of something but, totally arbitrary.......but have at it :cheers:
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Re: Well Put Hiko

Unread postby daddywags » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:39 pm

Okay, sorry if I twisted your words/thoughts. I misunderstood the point you were making with the Eric Wright reference. As for QB, my only point is that when Delhomme and/or Wallace are ready to play I hope and expect that Holmgren will be involved in the decision whether to let McCoy keep starting or not.
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