Hillis for President...

[mattvan1]

I am amazed that there are now 50 posts in this thread, and > 50% are devoted to Ward's "was it or wasn't it" a penalty.

After a win.

At home.

The first win this year.

Are we so conditioned to losing that we don't how to respond after a win?

[Triple-S]

I am amazed that there are now 50 posts in this thread, and > 50% are devoted to Ward's "was it or wasn't it" a penalty.

After a win.

At home.

The first win this year.


Are we so conditioned to losing that we don't how to respond after a win?

pretty much

everyone 850 seemed like they wern't even sure what to talk about.

[FUDU]

Matt the first win of the year is much like driving in the first snow.

[aoxo1]

I don't even know what to talk about after a win.

It's easy to bitch and pick apart a dozen things after a loss.

After a win?

"Hey, that was great."
"Yep, pretty good."
"Alright!"

[bucknutz94]

heard on radio 1st back-to-back 100yd games by a white RB since '85 (James and Riggins).

[peeker643]

heard on radio 1st back-to-back 100yd games by a white RB since '85 (James and Riggins).

Apparently the people on the radio don't know what to talk about after a win either.

Did they mention anything about four straight games of a black punter not having a punt blocked or anything else where we can discuss race?

Maybe four straight games of a black holder holding for a white kicker on turf twice and on natural grass twice with a white long snapper and black right guard protecting them?

No?

Dang it. Maybe if they win again we can extrapolate it out further.

[bucknutz94]

It was on Fox. Petros (sp) was getting a good laugh out of it. He was asking if this meant the white tailback was on the way back? Way back from what? Red Grange? Paul Hornung?

[mattvan1]

Matt the first win of the year is much like driving in the first snow.

It's no big deal because you know there are many more to come?

Sign me up for that.

[OldDawg]

I'm in with all the Hillis love.

But some of you guys have short memories... memory stunted by the activities that you partake in due to the woefulness of Cleveland sports. Don't worry, I won't tell.

Go back and read some of the game 1 thread. You guys were saying Mangini HAD to play him because he was Holmgren's boy. You were saying he didn't deserve to play.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18717&start=150

Just sayin'

[Gradysmanldy]

1. If you want a good running back comparison, look no further than Rueben Droughns. Fullback-style brusing back, yards after the hit, came from the Broncos, and was a fan favorite. Also got beat the hell up running in an offense that couldn't throw for shit.

2. I love Hillis, but would really like to see someone give him a breather. That kind of style, at 20+ carries per game, wont last. Why not give someone else 5-10 carries and get a few years of productivity out of Hillis?

3. On that note, why isnt James Davis considered for that change of pace, if Harrison is in the dog house/ineffective? I feel like they aren't letting Harrison get any carries because of his mouth/attitude....don't bite off your nose to spite your face. (or whatever that homerism is) Davis is apparently the "change of pace" quick back, and looked good in preseason. If it's a blitz pickup type issue I get it....if not, let him spell Hillis.

3. I'm now catching myself watching on defense to see where Wright is, and i'm floored his still seeing the field as frequently as he is....seemed he got roasted pretty frequently again.

4. The reason there's any question of a "helmet to helmet" on that hit is because shipley ducked his head at the last minute. I don't believe that Ward was trying to hurt him, but just make a play. I could give a shit less about the flag. (although I was waiting for McCoy to come sprinting in from the sideline and start cradling Shipley in his arms...."It's ok little buddy, you're safe now, I wont let them hurt you....."

Shipley: "Im scared, Colt! Hold me..."

Browns win, TO gets to stuff it, and the Mcnabb gets a win in his return to Philly. Shit was RIGHT in football, for a day. The gloom I think we're seeing from Browns fans is more schedule related....we knew this was the tough stretch of games coming up.

(Here's hoping Ward gets a similar hit on Braylon)

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I am amazed that there are now 50 posts in this thread, and > 50% are devoted to Ward's "was it or wasn't it" a penalty.

After a win.

At home.

The first win this year.

Are we so conditioned to losing that we don't how to respond after a win?

Yes.

Maybe.

I don't know.

What am I, a Cleveland fan biographer?

[fairvis]

(Here's hoping Ward gets a similar hit on Braylon)

I cannot overstate how awesome this would be.

[FUDU]

Matt the first win of the year is much like driving in the first snow.

It's no big deal because you know there are many more to come?

Sign me up for that.

I was going for the whole everyone forgets how to react thing but I like your angle better.

[jb]

We've been waiting for a physical team for 10 years. They're just about there.

Team has been finding its identity for 4 weeks now, and they just about have it.

Truth.

Thus Mangini is the long term answer. Despite his limitations, he always builds a team that can run the ball. You do that, you will always always always overcome; eventually. As it was since Camp it remains. "You overcoimne resistence bu persistence." - WW Hayes

Then you throw the ball for easy scores.

But Hillis is not along term soluition. Glad he gets everyone's rocks off and gets style points, but you can't make a living on Ron Wolfley and no breakaway threat for long.

Hardesty will be the Man if he can stay healthy in the wheels. Hillis will then be a nice change of pace for 5 or so carries a game to spell him.

[jb]

Ok so lay it on me, was at the game (so couldn't get a good look at Ward hit replays) was it legal? If so was it called b/c it was late? B/C that is all I can see that might have been reason for flag. However while at game I could see one thing, our WRs cannot get open on their own, ugh. The potential of our best WR is as an average number 2 IMO.

No. I didn't think it was late, I didn't think it was a head shot and I was not at all surprised it was called.

Mostly because it was vicious, loud and may have been the result of the officials seeing Shipley as defenseless.

I'm not kidding Donny: he lit him up like a Christmas tree and immediately people gasped, covered their faces and then watched as Bengals players called for the trainers.

It was beautiful. More so because Shipley ultimately sat up and walked off but mostly because it was vicious.

And thus as is the modern NFL, he will get fined for being awesome.

[jb]

There's more to love about T.J. than the hits. The kid's technique when it comes to tackling is flawless. He wraps guys up and they go down. He just doesn't miss.

To me he's a better pure tackler than E-Rock (RIP) was at the same stage in his career.

Now where was this kid when Posey and Lil' Dane were running free through Oregon's secondary in last season's Rose Bowl?

Good point on his technique. Not just the tackling but the coverage as well. He's a good defender when it's his number called to man-up a receiver. He's young, makes some mistakes and will learn more as he plays, but the kid just knows how to play. And you can see heads turning and looking when he's running down kickoffs too.


He's a beast. And despite the difference in size, I have to say that Joe Haden is a willing hitter too.

The kid from Texas has a couple nice pix. Mays had a pick. But I think alot of us owe Heckgren an apology from draft day. Gives me much faith. Best Browns second round pick since..... Webstar? Geez.

[jb]

Bottom line - you can only hit so hard in the modern NFL.

Ask Chuck Cecil. Cost him his career.

And $ 40 K for a delayed angry reaction.

[peeker643]

But Hillis is not along term soluition. Glad he gets everyone's rocks off and gets style points, but you can't make a living on Ron Wolfley and no breakaway threat for long.

Hardesty will be the Man if he can stay healthy in the wheels. Hillis will then be a nice change of pace for 5 or so carries a game to spell him.

It'd be so much easier if you just said you were wrong in regard to Hillis. And please, take this in its totality. I'm not saying Hillis is a feature back or can survive as one in this league.

He cannot. His style will land him on the IR and, as you say, you have to have a HR threat somewhere on the field (even when the 'Boys were running Emmit for 5 yards every play with no huge runs they had Irvin and harper to stretch the field).


But get off the Wolfley angle. It's just not a valid comp even if you're hyperbolizing.

Hillis, even though I agree he was brought here on the come and probably to give the Browns a valid backup option to Vickers, has always had a better and more complete skill set than a Wolfley (or a Vickers for that matter). He's got value beyond FB value.

End of day, I'm thrilled they have Hammer and Nails on each side of the ball in Hillis and Ward. It makes me feel better seeing Roy Williams limp off the field after colliding with Hillis and it makes me feel better seeing Shipley and a flag laying in the field than Percy Ellsworth playing fair.

That's an identity and it's contagious.

[Lubber]

We've been waiting for a physical team for 10 years. They're just about there.

Team has been finding its identity for 4 weeks now, and they just about have it.

But Hillis is not along term soluition. Glad he gets everyone's rocks off and gets style points, but you can't make a living on Ron Wolfley and no breakaway threat for long.
.

You are aware Hillis has more yards in his last 3 games than Wolfley did in 10 NFL seasons?

[jb]

Peeker & Lubbs clearly I am being an irritant. But here is my take.

On any level of football there are 3 types of RB.

Those who can't get you what is there due to thir limitation.

Those who can get you what is there oK.

Those who consistently add values.

With type 1 you look to cut them. Type 2 can play until u upgrade to 3.

Hollis is type 2 who occasionally breaks a tackle to stumble for an extra yard or two.

The Rube Draughns take is not bad

[peeker643]

Peeker & Lubbs clearly I am being an irritant.

Everthing after this was blah...blah...blah...noise...blah...blah...noise...noise.



Come on man. I agree. It's just fun to watch and it's fun to see guys who were licking Harrison's jock with nothing to show for it other than a bad taste in their mouth because that cat ain't the answer either. The elite RB for this team is not on the roster right now.

The Browns had a horseshoe up their ass with Hillis. He was brought here because he's a more versatile WCO fullback than Vickers and he can do everything okay.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

ATTENTION! Will all the over-analytical morons please.... SHUT....THE....FUCK....UP!

There is a force to be feared in the Browns secondary...be happy or just die already...please!

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

Who thinks Jerome Harrison will finish with less yards this season than he gained against Kansas City last season?

[SoulDawg74]

ATTENTION! Will all the over-analytical morons please.... SHUT....THE....FUCK....UP!

There is a force to be feared in the Browns secondary...be happy or just die already...please!

AAAAAAAAAAAA Men

.........AAAAA MEN

............A Men

...........A MEN

...........[size=200].A FUCKIN MEN.............[/size]

[Hikohadon]

The elite RB for this team is not on the roster right now.

Technically, no. He's on IR.

[yogi]

Peeker & Lubbs clearly I am being an irritant. But here is my take.

On any level of football there are 3 types of RB.

Those who can't get you what is there due to thir limitation.

Those who can get you what is there oK.

Those who consistently add values.

With type 1 you look to cut them. Type 2 can play until u upgrade to 3.

Hollis is type 2 who occasionally breaks a tackle to stumble for an extra yard or two.

The Rube Draughns take is not bad

If you got a 2 at RB, you look to replace other 1s on this team.

I'd start with WRs but there are other places, though not as many as 12 months ago.

[peeker643]

The elite RB for this team is not on the roster right now.

Technically, no. He's on IR.

I agree. And I truly was ill when he walked off under his own power against Chicago only to be dx-ed with the ACL tear afterward.

Difference between hurt and injured. Hardesty is simply one unlucky mofo with the injuries.

But I agree that that kid is a special back IF you can get him on the field. And I think with two surgically rebuilt knees that it's a coin flip at best for that now.

[SoulDawg74]

The elite RB for this team is not on the roster right now.

Technically, no. He's on IR.

I agree. And I truly was ill when he walked off under his own power against Chicago only to be dx-ed with the ACL tear afterward.

Difference between hurt and injured. Hardesty is simply one unlucky mofo with the injuries.

But I agree that that kid is a special back IF you can get him on the field. And I think with two surgically rebuilt knees that it's a coin flip at best for that now.

SD:

Fools Gold , you have to go looking again in the draft as if this kid doesn't exist, he is what we thought we drafted.


SoulDawg

[yogi]

a little story to fuel the fire of the town's latest hero!

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_16254422

"When I think of Cleveland, I think of me."

[Ziner]

Bullshit there better not be any trade involving Longs Peak. My view would suck ass if you guys got it.

[FUDU]

We've been waiting for a physical team for 10 years. They're just about there.

Team has been finding its identity for 4 weeks now, and they just about have it.

Truth.

Thus Mangini is the long term answer. Despite his limitations, he always builds a team that can run the ball. You do that, you will always always always overcome; eventually. As it was since Camp it remains. "You overcoimne resistence bu persistence." - WW Hayes

Then you throw the ball for easy scores.

But Hillis is not along term soluition. Glad he gets everyone's rocks off and gets style points, but you can't make a living on Ron Wolfley and no breakaway threat for long.

Hardesty will be the Man if he can stay healthy in the wheels. Hillis will then be a nice change of pace for 5 or so carries a game to spell him.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/rushing/sort/rushingBigPlays

IMO you under value Hillis, and quite a bit. I understand your overall point, and don't totally disagree. But while Hillis will never be an Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell or even a Neil Anderson he can be a second coming of a Kevin Mack, better than actually (b/c IMO Mack, while I loved him, was over rated in terms of production). The big question with Hillis is health, b/c with the type of abuse he is going to need to take for us this year and maybe next he might not have a long career. The guy is productive though, make no mistake about it. He is doing all this when the defense knows he is going to get the ball, that says something.

Notice in that link that he is right with the pack in runs over 20, and let's forget he doesn't make bad runs worse, that makes a difference. The dude is not the typical fullback that you sparingly give carries to in hopes of getting 2-3 yards. He can carry the load with a decent line or better and will make an impact do to his production and ability to wear down a defense.

[SoulDawg74]

We've been waiting for a physical team for 10 years. They're just about there.

Team has been finding its identity for 4 weeks now, and they just about have it.

Truth.

Thus Mangini is the long term answer. Despite his limitations, he always builds a team that can run the ball. You do that, you will always always always overcome; eventually. As it was since Camp it remains. "You overcoimne resistence bu persistence." - WW Hayes

Then you throw the ball for easy scores.

But Hillis is not along term soluition. Glad he gets everyone's rocks off and gets style points, but you can't make a living on Ron Wolfley and no breakaway threat for long.

Hardesty will be the Man if he can stay healthy in the wheels. Hillis will then be a nice change of pace for 5 or so carries a game to spell him.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/rushing/sort/rushingBigPlays

IMO you under value Hillis, and quite a bit. I understand your overall point, and don't totally disagree. But while Hillis will never be an Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell or even a Neil Anderson he can be a second coming of a Kevin Mack, better than actually (b/c IMO Mack, while I loved him, was over rated in terms of production). The big question with Hillis is health, b/c with the type of abuse he is going to need to take for us this year and maybe next he might not have a long career. The guy is productive though, make no mistake about it. He is doing all this when the defense knows he is going to get the ball, that says something.

Notice in that link that he is right with the pack in runs over 20, and let's forget he doesn't make bad runs worse, that makes a difference. The dude is not the typical fullback that you sparingly give carries to in hopes of getting 2-3 yards. He can carry the load with a decent line or better and will make an impact do to his production and ability to wear down a defense.

SD:

you misspelled

S T U D

Kid is a throwback Motley Riggo Bettis Csonka type with not quite the breakaway speed of Riggo or Motley butt toughness personified.

You can hurt people with a roster of Hillis's and Cribb types , they break face masks and cause people in the secondary to make (Business decisions)


SoulDawg

[jb]

Peeker & Lubbs clearly I am being an irritant.

Everthing after this was blah...blah...blah...noise...blah...blah...noise...noise.



Come on man. I agree. It's just fun to watch and it's fun to see guys who were licking Harrison's jock with nothing to show for it other than a bad taste in their mouth because that cat ain't the answer either. The elite RB for this team is not on the roster right now.

The Browns had a horseshoe up their ass with Hillis. He was brought here because he's a more versatile WCO fullback than Vickers and he can do everything okay.

"A horseshoe up their ass" ?

[jb]

We've been waiting for a physical team for 10 years. They're just about there.

Team has been finding its identity for 4 weeks now, and they just about have it.

Truth.

Thus Mangini is the long term answer. Despite his limitations, he always builds a team that can run the ball. You do that, you will always always always overcome; eventually. As it was since Camp it remains. "You overcoimne resistence bu persistence." - WW Hayes

Then you throw the ball for easy scores.

But Hillis is not along term soluition. Glad he gets everyone's rocks off and gets style points, but you can't make a living on Ron Wolfley and no breakaway threat for long.

Hardesty will be the Man if he can stay healthy in the wheels. Hillis will then be a nice change of pace for 5 or so carries a game to spell him.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/rushing/sort/rushingBigPlays

IMO you under value Hillis, and quite a bit. I understand your overall point, and don't totally disagree. But while Hillis will never be an Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell or even a Neil Anderson he can be a second coming of a Kevin Mack, better than actually (b/c IMO Mack, while I loved him, was over rated in terms of production). The big question with Hillis is health, b/c with the type of abuse he is going to need to take for us this year and maybe next he might not have a long career. The guy is productive though, make no mistake about it. He is doing all this when the defense knows he is going to get the ball, that says something.

Notice in that link that he is right with the pack in runs over 20, and let's forget he doesn't make bad runs worse, that makes a difference. The dude is not the typical fullback that you sparingly give carries to in hopes of getting 2-3 yards. He can carry the load with a decent line or better and will make an impact do to his production and ability to wear down a defense.

Mack broke down from so much use. He burned out.

But when young mack had way more speed than Hillis. He had near home run speed. Mack was an elite talent. Hillis is just gonna get it 3.5 at a time.

The thing about Hillis that is interesting is that the NFL has become a small back's league. Lot's of 5'8" types. Make it hard to prepare for a Hillis.

[peeker643]

"A horseshoe up their ass" ?

Extremely lucky.

[jb]

"A horseshoe up their ass" ?

Extremely lucky.

Maybe you'd feel lucky with that up your ass, but I'd pretty much feel violated.

[peeker643]

Mack broke down from so much use. He burned out.

But when young mack had way more speed than Hillis. He had near home run speed. Mack was an elite talent. Hillis is just gonna get it 3.5 at a time.

Disagree. Mack had exactly one year above 750 yards rushing and that was his first season in Cleveland. In nearly every year after that he was that 3.5 per carry guy. And I also disagree he burned out.

He played 6 years (including USFL year) before his drug arrest and then a couple more useful years after that that looked a lot like every other year in Cleveland (except that rookie season).

He didn't burn out, he faded away. And he faded away despite Ernest Byner and later Metcalf and Hoard sharing some of the load.


Hillis is fine in his role but he needs a Byner/Metcalf/Hoard more than he needs any more speed or HR ability.

And JB, Kevin Mack was nowhere near the specimen Hillis is. Believe it or not he was closer in size to Harrison than Hillis.

YMMV

[Hikohadon]

Hillis is just gonna get it 3.5 at a time.

At a 4.8 clip.

Let's be honest, some of the holes Hillis has had to run through were huge. He's just been aggressive enough to hit 'em without the Jamal/Jerome dancing.

And the diff between 3.5 and 4.8 is the yards he gets after contact.

Not a franchise back, but could be a big part of a franchise committee.

[jb]

Peeker, Mack was monster. A very large RB, technically a FB. Harison is only 205. I don't care what mack was listed at, he was upwards of 230. And Mack was dinged often, and probaly never took care of himelf the way Hillis obviously does. But dude could go distance. The long gainer against B-more was by far the longest run the kid has had in his career.

Hiko, I'm gonna leave my self wide open on this one, but I'll suggest Peyton needs a larger sample size before we proclaim him a legit 4.0 + RB. If he's there in late November after game 10, I'll ceed point, admit you were right, and STFU on Hillis.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable to catch up to Shoeless Joe before I jump on the band wagon. We don't get this lucky.

[FUDU]

We've been waiting for a physical team for 10 years. They're just about there.

Team has been finding its identity for 4 weeks now, and they just about have it.

Truth.

Thus Mangini is the long term answer. Despite his limitations, he always builds a team that can run the ball. You do that, you will always always always overcome; eventually. As it was since Camp it remains. "You overcoimne resistence bu persistence." - WW Hayes

Then you throw the ball for easy scores.

But Hillis is not along term soluition. Glad he gets everyone's rocks off and gets style points, but you can't make a living on Ron Wolfley and no breakaway threat for long.

Hardesty will be the Man if he can stay healthy in the wheels. Hillis will then be a nice change of pace for 5 or so carries a game to spell him.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/rushing/sort/rushingBigPlays

IMO you under value Hillis, and quite a bit. I understand your overall point, and don't totally disagree. But while Hillis will never be an Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell or even a Neil Anderson he can be a second coming of a Kevin Mack, better than actually (b/c IMO Mack, while I loved him, was over rated in terms of production). The big question with Hillis is health, b/c with the type of abuse he is going to need to take for us this year and maybe next he might not have a long career. The guy is productive though, make no mistake about it. He is doing all this when the defense knows he is going to get the ball, that says something.

Notice in that link that he is right with the pack in runs over 20, and let's forget he doesn't make bad runs worse, that makes a difference. The dude is not the typical fullback that you sparingly give carries to in hopes of getting 2-3 yards. He can carry the load with a decent line or better and will make an impact do to his production and ability to wear down a defense.

Mack broke down from so much use. He burned out.

But when young mack had way more speed than Hillis. He had near home run speed. Mack was an elite talent. Hillis is just gonna get it 3.5 at a time.

The thing about Hillis that is interesting is that the NFL has become a small back's league. Lot's of 5'8" types. Make it hard to prepare for a Hillis.

Dude...

You know I respect your retrospective on most things Browns, let's face it I have to you're old enough to be my....

But you're off on Mack. Yeah he was a talent, yeah he had more top end than Hillis (Makc also weighed 20lbs less, yep he did). But Mack, just like Hillis, benefited from a good Oline (you can decide which line was better) and yet only averaged 4+ per carry twice in his entire career with the Browns. Note they started at the same age as well. Mack had plenty of good things about his game but the bottom line is is production was over rated, it was just that hard to see from our angle as Browns fans that were undernourished (today we are malnourished). Also let's not forget he had a hard time staying on the field, he wasn't exactly an iron man in that regard.

Hillis is getting the production, the production that Mack's talent should have achieved. Now granted we have 3/4 a season to go so I am not counting chickens before they hatch. All things being equal though Hillis is produce more than Mack, maybe more than he ever did.

[peeker643]

Peeker, Mack was monster. A very large RB, technically a FB. Harison is only 205. I don't care what mack was listed at, he was upwards of 230. And Mack was dinged often, and probaly never took care of himelf the way Hillis obviously does. But dude could go distance. The long gainer against B-more was by far the longest run the kid has had in his career.

Hiko, I'm gonna leave my self wide open on this one, but I'll suggest Peyton needs a larger sample size before we proclaim him a legit 4.0 + RB. If he's there in late November after game 10, I'll ceed point, admit you were right, and STFU on Hillis.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable to catch up to Shoeless Joe before I jump on the band wagon. We don't get this lucky.

No sir. He may have been big relative to the times and to you but he was 6 feet tall JB. Maybe 210-220lbs depending on the month because he usually came to camp looking like he enjoyed his summers free of a lot of stress and physical activity.

Kevin Mack wasn't much taller than I was.

I hear ya on the sample size, and I'll also tell ya Mack didn't fumble in his first 6 years with the Browns, but Mack also benefitted from an offense that was wicked good and had multiple weapons. Hillis is the offense. No one in B'More or on the Cincy defense was surprised Hillis was getting the ball. He still chewed both of 'em up.

As far as lucky, Mack fell to the Browns because Donald Trump killed the USFL. That was lucky once upon a time. Not saying Hilis will have that impact for as long, but soft shoeing a guy getting a chance might be a bit short sighted too.

[jb]

FUDU, Mack averaged 4.0 for his Browns career, buddy.

And I choose not to believe the listed weights peeker. Becasue I am irrationally stubborn like that. ;-) He looked more 225 - 230 that 212 to me becasue he looked about 20 pounds bigger than average in the golden day of lighter but strong players due to chemistry.

No question Hillis works harder in the off season. No one can take a thing away from that kid there.

[FUDU]

FUDU, Mack averaged 4.0 for his Browns career, buddy.

And I choose not to believe the listed weights peeker. Becasue I am irrationally stubborn like that. ;-) He looked more 225 - 230 that 212 to me becasue he looked about 20 pounds bigger than average in the golden day of lighter but strong players due to chemistry.

No question Hillis works harder in the off season. No one can take a thing away from that kid there.

I'll let Furls get into the details of the average stuff, seriously come on JB, he played 9 years with us, had one year @ 5.0 another @ 4.4 and 7 at 3.8 or less. It pains me to even say this but Mike Pruitt as a Brown had better numbers than Mack and IMO Pruitt was not as talented as Mack, not at all.

If you want to argue that when Mack was 100% he was 4+ yPG guy then fine I'll buy that, but Mack was 100% about 35% of the time.

[hermanfontenot]

No sir. He may have been big relative to the times and to you but he was 6 feet tall JB. Maybe 210-220lbs depending on the month because he usually came to camp looking like he enjoyed his summers free of a lot of stress and physical activity.

Kevin Mack wasn't much taller than I was.

It's funny how much the game has changed in terms of size. Mack seemed like a physical beast when we were kids, but he was only, what, 6'0", 220? That isn't even all that big for a tailback anymore.

The similarity between Mack and Hillis IMO is that neither was/is capable of being THE guy for a truly effective running team. Mack's problem is he only had two prime-of-career seasons (1985 and '87) in which he was complemented by another good back (Byner.) He was on the downside by the time Metcalf and Hoard came along, and Hoard kind of made Mack redundant because they both had the same style.

They do have similar skill-sets though. Both power runners with good hands out of the backfield, both can block... Mack probably had better top-end speed but he wasn't really a burner either. Those Browns teams didn't run many sweeps because neither Mack nor Byner had great speed- they substituted flares and screens for sweeps.

We're going to need to find the lightning for Hillis's thunder at some point. My dream is seeing someone else, say, Hardesty, carve it up for three quarters, then unleash Hillis on a tired defense in the fourth to close it out. Like what Tampa used to do with Dunn and Alstott.

[peeker643]

FUDU, Mack averaged 4.0 for his Browns career, buddy.

And I choose not to believe the listed weights peeker. Becasue I am irrationally stubborn like that. ;-) He looked more 225 - 230 that 212 to me becasue he looked about 20 pounds bigger than average in the golden day of lighter but strong players due to chemistry.

No question Hillis works harder in the off season. No one can take a thing away from that kid there.

I didn't do any math but if Mack (and believe me, I loved the guy) had a 4.0 it was because he averaged 5.0 his first season. He had one other year when he was over 4.0 and that was it.

Okay. I'm not going to tear down Kevin Mack. Not in your eyes and not in mine because the dude was a good cat and a very good player for a long time. But as the guy who was Joe Pendry's bitch while assigned to the RBs for a a couple years, I can tell you Mack was not Christian Okoye or Peyton Hillis physically. He wasn't even Johnny Davis big.

[jb]

FUDU, Mack averaged 4.0 for his Browns career, buddy.

And I choose not to believe the listed weights peeker. Becasue I am irrationally stubborn like that. ;-) He looked more 225 - 230 that 212 to me becasue he looked about 20 pounds bigger than average in the golden day of lighter but strong players due to chemistry.

No question Hillis works harder in the off season. No one can take a thing away from that kid there.

I didn't do any math but if Mack (and believe me, I loved the guy) had a 4.0 it was because he averaged 5.0 his first season. He had one other year when he was over 4.0 and that was it.

Okay. I'm not going to tear down Kevin Mack. Not in your eyes and not in mine because the dude was a good cat and a very good player for a long time. But as the guy who was Joe Pendry's bitch while assigned to the RBs for a a couple years, I can tell you Mack was not Christian Okoye or Peyton Hillis physically. He wasn't even Johnny Davis big.

5123 / 1291. Is what it is.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... ckKe00.htm

Can't take away 85 unless you laso ignore 92.

[FUDU]

Mack was deceiving on the field, both is speed and size (size b/c of his enormous pads). Only set of shoulders pads that were bigger, ever, were Herschel's in NJ, Google the cover of SI with Walker, ridiculous.

[peeker643]

No sir. He may have been big relative to the times and to you but he was 6 feet tall JB. Maybe 210-220lbs depending on the month because he usually came to camp looking like he enjoyed his summers free of a lot of stress and physical activity.

Kevin Mack wasn't much taller than I was.

It's funny how much the game has changed in terms of size. Mack seemed like a physical beast when we were kids, but he was only, what, 6'0", 220? That isn't even all that big for a tailback anymore.

The similarity between Mack and Hillis IMO is that neither was/is capable of being THE guy for a truly effective running team. Mack's problem is he only had two prime-of-career seasons (1985 and '87) in which he was complemented by another good back (Byner.) He was on the downside by the time Metcalf and Hoard came along, and Hoard kind of made Mack redundant because they both had the same style.

They do have similar skill-sets though. Both power runners with good hands out of the backfield, both can block... Mack probably had better top-end speed but he wasn't really a burner either. Those Browns teams didn't run many sweeps because neither Mack nor Byner had great speed- they substituted flares and screens for sweeps.

We're going to need to find the lightning for Hillis's thunder at some point. My dream is seeing someone else, say, Hardesty, carve it up for three quarters, then unleash Hillis on a tired defense in the fourth to close it out. Like what Tampa used to do with Dunn and Alstott.

Yes. This. Exactly this. Hillis is a viable component to a successful offense. A vital component in this conference and this climate. But he needs a Lightning. Mack and Byner were actually "Thunder & Little Thunder" but both could and would block for the other and in the passing game and both could (though Byner excelled) catch the football. Both were also a step faster than Hillis with neither being what I'd call fast by yesterday's or today's standards.

[FUDU]

3.75 if you take away his best and worst. My point wasn't even the number itself, but what you could truly count on from him in terms of production. You could count on 12 games of almost 4 ypg from him, not much more IMO. I'm done, I'm getting emotional about such a guy that created so many good football memories back in the day, truly a team effort back then.

[jb]

Mack was deceiving on the field, both is speed and size (size b/c of his enormous pads). Only set of shoulders pads that were bigger, ever, were Herschel's in NJ, Google the cover of SI with Walker, ridiculous.

This topic is proof we can chop it up about just about anything...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4197 ... cks#page/8

At 6'0", 225 pounds, Mack was a bulldog and a real load, which made him perfect for Cleveland's blue-collar football mentality.