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Hooray For Benjamin Cox!

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Hooray For Benjamin Cox!

Unread postby pup » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:33 am

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Unread postby swerb » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:06 am

I knew you, Furls, and Papa Cass would like that one.

Ben's a good writer and a passionate no nonsens fan with solid takes. He'll be coming to the Tribe Game and Draft Party with us. He's one of the couple contributors to the site I haevn't met yet.
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Unread postby pup » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:41 am

I knew you, Furls, and Papa Cass would like that one


Looks like I am in some pretty good company!
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Unread postby Guest » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:18 am

I agree that the article is great
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Unread postby yogi » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:04 pm

So, if we don't spend our 1st round pick , #3 overall, on an OL, we are just doomed to repeat mistakes of the past, is that it?

Do I have the point you're trying to make correct?

Because, if I have, then I can't agree.

Free Agency oughta be used to patch up any weaknesses in the line. I think re-signing Fraley and Freidman and adding McKinney has done that. And he signing of Steinbach could be huge. So we also used FA to upgrade the line.

Should we invest on the OL in the draft? You betcha! And if we spend 2 of the 7 picks we have (at least 1 on the first day) , I think we'll have more than adequately addressed the OL.

Pick #3 should be used by Phil to get the best value for this team. PERIOD.

Be it QB, WR, RB or a trade down.
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Unread postby pup » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:37 pm

So, if we don't spend our 1st round pick , #3 overall, on an OL, we are just doomed to repeat mistakes of the past, is that it?

Do I have the point you're trying to make correct?


It depends on what the Browns have players graded at. I am not privy to that information and do not pretend to be some sort of scout. If they have another tackle rated close enough to Thomas, and they feel he will be around in the 2nd, then I can accept that. I don't know how good an Ugoh or a Sears really are. I am going by what other people, who get paid to evaluate these players are saying.

Free Agency oughta be used to patch up any weaknesses in the line.


That has worked out quite well in the past. Unless Steinbach is going to play tackle, then they have done nothing to upgrade that position. Offensive tackles are a weakness on this team.

Pick #3 should be used by Phil to get the best value for this team. PERIOD.

Be it QB, WR, RB or a trade down.


But not a LT? Why not? Is it because you do not like the prospects of Joe Thomas? Is it because you don't think you can invest that much cash in the o-line as a unit? Or is it because you are enamored with skill players?
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Unread postby furls » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:40 pm

So, if we don't spend our 1st round pick , #3 overall, on an OL, we are just doomed to repeat mistakes of the past, is that it?


The article, as I read it, did not say that at all.

Free Agency oughta be used to patch up any weaknesses in the line. I think re-signing Fraley and Freidman and adding McKinney has done that. And he signing of Steinbach could be huge. So we also used FA to upgrade the line.


First of all, patch up is the understatement of the century. That turd needed to be flushed and rebuilt. Now as to the use of free agency, the Browns efforts to fix the line in FA has been disasterous. They need to take the shotgun approach and throw as much crap at the Oline as they can and see what sticks to the starting roster. The Browns still need a center, another starting guard, and a tackle (at least).

I think we'll have more than adequately addressed the OL.


If they don't fill the line with quality (7th round picks do not make teams), then you will eat those words.

Pick #3 should be used by Phil to get the best value for this team. PERIOD.


Value is relative to need. If you watched the Browns last year you should know they need line help more than anything else. If that means trade out of three (PLEASE DO THIS) for more picks, then so be it.
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Unread postby yogi » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:54 pm

Quote:
Pick #3 should be used by Phil to get the best value for this team. PERIOD.

Be it QB, WR, RB or a trade down.


But not a LT? Why not? Is it because you do not like the prospects of Joe Thomas? Is it because you don't think you can invest that much cash in the o-line as a unit? Or is it because you are enamored with skill players?


I don't see needing to spend that high a pick on a lineman. Unless, that lineman came with grades and superlatives that are given to Calvin Johnson. I don't think Thomas ranks there.

There are also many, many cases of a Roman Oben and a much older and slower Lomas Brown being more than adequate on a championship team.

I think you can win consistently in this league with a slightly above average line. That dominating OL in KC didn't win anything.

We have real talent at TE and WR. We need our OL to give adequate time for our QB to get the ball to them. Not a dominating OL that will give oodles of time to a QB that makes bad decisions with the ball.

I'm all for spending 1st day picks improving our OL, I'm just not a spending a top 5 pick on a position that improves 1/5 of the unit.

I can work up almost as much excitement to hear we got Tony Ugoh or Justin Blalock instead of Joe Thomas.

I could not hearing Tony Hunt Antonio Pittman instead of AD. Or Trent Edwards or Drew Stanton istead of Russel or Quinn.
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Unread postby yogi » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:07 pm

The article, as I read it, did not say that at all.


Furls, with all due respect, just what did you read outof the below?

I am just mortified of what the Browns will do with that 3rd pick. I would think, with all the trouble their line had last year (let’s not forget that Charlie Frye was tackled on handoffs last season) that the Browns would be lusting after Wisconsin tackle Joe Thomas. With all the trouble that the Browns’ O-line has had over the years, drafting Thomas seems to be a no-brainer.


But not for the Browns (or Browns fans).


This boggles my mind. Every season we see how bad the line is and we lament that Savage (and Davis and Clark) never paid much attention to the line in the draft. Then as the draft rolls around, we have collective amnesia and call for the Browns to draft the latest shiny object of a skill position player that catches our eye.


We want JaMarcus Russell! We want Brady Quinn! We any QB!



First of all, patch up is the understatement of the century. That turd needed to be flushed and rebuilt. Now as to the use of free agency, the Browns efforts to fix the line in FA has been disasterous. They need to take the shotgun approach and throw as much crap at the Oline as they can and see what sticks to the starting roster. The Browns still need a center, another starting guard, and a tackle (at leas


Generally, you won't find the Top talent for OT in FA, that's why I used the term "patch" to fill weaknesses. We did upgrade the OL at G and we did improve our depth. The Browns efforts to fix the OL have been good and sincere. The results have been poor.

Shoot, I think we should spend Randy's money on getting the BEST OL coach in the league. That's where I think we have underwhellmed since 99.
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Unread postby pup » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:49 pm

I'm all for spending 1st day picks improving our OL, I'm just not a spending a top 5 pick on a position that improves 1/5 of the unit.


There is no improving 1/5 of the line. Thomas is an upgrade at LT over Shafer. Shafer is an upgrade at RT over Tucker. Having better tackles, makes the guards better players. Having the guards play better gives you better center play. It is improving the line as a unit. 5/5. The sum of the parts is what matters.

I can work up almost as much excitement to hear we got Tony Ugoh or Justin Blalock instead of Joe Thomas


So, in your opinion, those guys are close to Joe Thomas. I believe I said, if Phil has them graded this closely, then waiting is OK. He just better be right.
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Unread postby furls » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:45 pm

I am just mortified of what the Browns will do with that 3rd pick. I would think, with all the trouble their line had last year (let’s not forget that Charlie Frye was tackled on handoffs last season) that the Browns would be lusting after Wisconsin tackle Joe Thomas. With all the trouble that the Browns’ O-line has had over the years, drafting Thomas seems to be a no-brainer.


But not for the Browns (or Browns fans).


This boggles my mind. Every season we see how bad the line is and we lament that Savage (and Davis and Clark) never paid much attention to the line in the draft. Then as the draft rolls around, we have collective amnesia and call for the Browns to draft the latest shiny object of a skill position player that catches our eye.


We want JaMarcus Russell! We want Brady Quinn! We any QB
!

Honestly, the way that I read that was more metaphoric. He did not come out and say, "Draft Joe Thomas," he said:

I would think, with all the trouble their line had last year (let’s not forget that Charlie Frye was tackled on handoffs last season) that the Browns would be lusting after Wisconsin tackle Joe Thomas.


which is then contrasted with the reality of the situation:

We want JaMarcus Russell! We want Brady Quinn! We any QB


seems like splitting hairs, but it is a valid and important difference. To me that reads that the average fan has forgotten the biggest problem on the team in their rush to buy the newest shiniest trinket (like that family member we all have who can barely pay his mortgage, but drives a lexus).

To me, the article is more about the fans and their short memories than actually spending the pick. It is a critique of fans that are screaming for BPA in lieu of filling a perpetually hole on this team. I read it as a very strong indictment of fans that will bitch all winter long about a bad O-line and then be content with leaving the project half fixed in the offseason because they want a shiny new toy. Maybe I am reading too much into the article and it is just a persuasion piece about drafting Joe Thomas, but I just read it as a commentary on fans.

Spending high draft picks is a lot like washing your underwear. No really enjoys doing it, but it must be done.
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Unread postby furls » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:49 pm

I'm all for spending 1st day picks improving our OL, I'm just not a spending a top 5 pick on a position that improves 1/5 of the unit.


It is this exact philosophy that has landed us Braylon "Hands" Edwards, Kellen "the motorcycle soldier" Winslow, and Tim "sitting on the..." Couch. Again, I do not care if the Browns draft Thomas, but I really am not sure that spending a 3rd and 6th is really going to do much to improve this line next year anyway.
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Unread postby jb » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:53 pm

Quote:
So, if we don't spend our 1st round pick , #3 overall, on an OL, we are just doomed to repeat mistakes of the past, is that it?


The article, as I read it, did not say that at all.


Nuh uh. Did too. :lol:
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Unread postby jb » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:56 pm

Furls wrote:
I'm all for spending 1st day picks improving our OL, I'm just not a spending a top 5 pick on a position that improves 1/5 of the unit.


It is this exact philosophy that has landed us Braylon "Hands" Edwards, Kellen "the motorcycle soldier" Winslow, and Tim "sitting on the..." Couch. Again, I do not care if the Browns draft Thomas, but I really am not sure that spending a 3rd and 6th is really going to do much to improve this line next year anyway.


Did the philosophy yield them, or bad scouting and bad luck?
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Unread postby jb » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:02 pm

To me that reads that the average fan has forgotten the biggest problem on the team in their rush to buy the newest shiniest trinket (like that family member we all have who can barely pay his mortgage, but drives a lexus).


Furls, I strongly believe that is a very debatable take.

The major weakness on the OL was Joe Andruzzi, not Kevin Shaffer. It was Andruzzi's repeated whiffing that was the weakest link, and Fat Dorsey & K. Butler smelled as well. Sowells was better in his stint. WE still need a good RT prospect

But as poorly as the OL played, for my money, in no way did it underperform relative to the Brown & Holley disaster flick, the DL that got ground into dust and couldn't hold a 2nd half lead, and the suckmaster himself, Charlie Frye.

If fans think Frye was purely a victim rather than a bad QB who contributed to his own demise, they don't understand the position of QB. We can thread that one out if anyone wants some.

The Browns have acute needs at OT , QB, CB and DL. We can not realistically address them all this draft. The issue remains value. So reducing this discussion to terms like a QB being a "shiney trinket" when yer choices are Frye & DA is framing this incorrectly.
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Unread postby swerb » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:08 pm

I agree 100% JB.

Its not that I don't like Joe Thomas. I judt don't know how much better he is than the guys that will be there at the top of round two.

Wisconsin was on every week. And Joe T was the #1 OL prospect all year. He's a good lineman. Appears pretty safe to be a good LT at the next level.

But I distinctly remember watching Thomas, and then Sears on Tennessee back to back on NY Day. Sears looked like the better player to me.

Listen, I've been one of the guys squaking about OL for years. I wanted Fonoti, then Steinbach, then Gallery, then Barnes over Pool, and went nuts last year when we ignored OL on day one.

I just don't think Joe Thomas is a #3 overall selection. And I think he reperesents just a small upgrade over what we can get in rd 2 ... or potentially even rd 3.

Russell, Brady Quinn, and Adrian Peterson are elite prospects. You're not going to get anything close to what those guys offer at those positions in round two.
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Unread postby Benny08302 » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:31 pm

Hey, Ben here and I just wanted to chime in

The column is mostly about how we bitch and bitch at the terribleness of the line every single season and then the draft rolls around and we forget the line and focus on some new offensive star/golden boy/face of the franchise.

Which is fine.

But the line has been a big problem since 1999. The Browns haven't adequately addressed it (in the draft anyway, Bentley and Steinbach are good moves).

We all know it's a problem. The Browns know it's a problem. But (like the bullpen in baseball) it's too tempting to say "good linemen can be found cheaply in free agency" and go for the highly regarded skill position players. I don't see how it's more costly to pass on Quinn/Peterson/Russell but not costly to pass on Thomas. (Of course, this implies that the Browns won't use their later picks on linemen)

I've long said (on my blog- benjamincox.blogspot.com- gotta plug) that, while I'd like to see them take Thomas and just be done with it, I'd be OK with Peterson (or Quinn if they trade down- I don't like him at 3) as long as they address the line on the first day.

Unfortunately, the Browns never seem to do that. Inevitably some receiver/running back/corner back will fall and the Browns will just have to grab him (because hey, who knew he was going to fall to them? Plus, as we all know, you can find good linemen cheaply and in the later rounds).

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Unread postby pup » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:17 pm

Its not that I don't like Joe Thomas. I judt don't know how much better he is than the guys that will be there at the top of round two.


IF they are there that is. People can assume who will be there all they want, but nothing is for sure at that point. There are a lot of teams at the end of round 1 and in front of us in round 2 that are looking for linemen. I think you are more likely to see the #3 RB available than the #3 tackle.

But I distinctly remember watching Thomas, and then Sears on Tennessee back to back on NY Day. Sears looked like the better player to me.


One day, one game. Over 4 years and 40 games, I don't know if you would make the same decision. Of course, I don't know either. I just don't see how you base something on one game. You are judging Sears for what he did against Penn State and Thomas against Arkansas. Go back and see what Thomas looked like against Penn State and Sears against Arkansas (I am assuming they played).

Russell, Brady Quinn, and Adrian Peterson are elite prospects.


I can find many more holes in Russell and Quinn than Thomas. I will not break down Peterson. I have no argument against him, other than he cannot block.

Russell is a workout demon. Against Florida, he was 24/41, for 228 yards and 3 INT's. Sure he can throw. He is also known as lazy, with the tendancy to be "overwieght". Hardly a sure thing. 4 months ago, nobody thought he should leave school. Now, he is a sure fire top QB on the draft? I don't buy it.

Brady Quinn is everybody's All American. He has the looks, the brains and the tools. The only problem I have with him? I don't know how you evaluate a guy who never stepped up when tested. I don't even cacre about winning, it is just that he seemed to implode in big games, other thanone home game against USC. Big time teams come, Quinn went in the tank. I would rate him over Russell, but very far from a sure thing.

Here is my biigest concern. With the holes that need to be filled, once you pass on Thomas in round 1, you could very easily fall into a BPA trap in round 2. What if Aaron Ross is there? Now you ahve to decide between a lineman and a corner. Both are big needs. Now we are talking about waiting until round 3. The chances that this group identifies a third round lineman and is right, not so hot.

Joe Thomas is not a sexy pick, but he is the safest. He also represents a change in direction of this team. This team needs to head in a new direction.
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:16 am

Pup wrote:There are a lot of teams at the end of round 1 and in front of us in round 2 that are looking for linemen. I think you are more likely to see the #3 RB available than the #3 tackle.


I may be mistaken, but is it not a deep draft for lineman? In that, the #3 through maybe #8-#10 ranked lineman are better than the #3-#10 ranked QBs and RBs? To me, there appears to be value there in the 2nd/3rd rounds as far as lineman go. I don't see it with QBs or RBs.

Man, this is going to be a fun draft party. :eek: :o :-o
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Unread postby yogi » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:00 am

Here is my biigest concern. With the holes that need to be filled, once you pass on Thomas in round 1, you could very easily fall into a BPA trap in round 2. What if Aaron Ross is there? Now you ahve to decide between a lineman and a corner. Both are big needs. Now we are talking about waiting until round 3. The chances that this group identifies a third round lineman and is right, not so hot.


Pup, excellent point.

But as others have said, we have big holes at other positions other than OL. We'd be extremely lucky to have a top notch DB fall into our hands with our 2nd pick.

But, that's exactly why I'd advocate trading down.

Scenario:

Russell goes at 1, Gaines Adams goes at 2..

We are up and Thomas, Quinn and AD are all available.

The phones are ringing. Teams are calling for the asking price of our pick , they want CJ.

You are the GM. Do you really take Thomas?

If it were me, I'd secure at least another high 2nd round pick. And happily take Quinn, AD or Thomas with our lower 1st round pick.

I also have a couple of picks to address two more holes at the top of the 2nd.

Problem is we still have more holes than picks.
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Unread postby pup » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:42 am

Russell goes at 1, Gaines Adams goes at 2..

We are up and Thomas, Quinn and AD are all available.

The phones are ringing. Teams are calling for the asking price of our pick , they want CJ.

You are the GM. Do you really take Thomas?


No, I don't. I trade down. In one second. To an area that Thomas may fall (which is probably not very far with Zona on the clock after us, but maybe they would take AP or the d-end from Arkansas). Or go a little farther down and settle for Levi Brown.

The only thing I do not want to happen is we are hanging out @ Pannini's on the 28th, drunk as skunks, Day 1 is rounding up, and we are still looking at Ryan Tucker as out starting RT.

The best way to avoid that? Draft Joe Thomas. Once you decide to pass on him, you are letting other teams decide your fate. Bad choice.

And the trade down scenerio is nice and all, but teams are going to call our bluff. They know we won't take CJ. Or Detroit trades down before we can. I would advocate a trade down, but I don't think it is likely. I think we stay at #3.
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Unread postby Dozen » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:45 am

Ive heard rumblings if CJ is still there GB may offer Rodgers and the 16th pick to move up, and the Browns would nab Lynch.
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Unread postby pup » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:51 am

Ive heard rumblings if CJ is still there GB may offer Rodgers and the 16th pick to move up, and the Browns would nab Lynch


It better be more than that.
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Unread postby Dozen » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:58 am

Just speculation, but I could see both teams talking about this.
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Unread postby furls » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:32 pm

And the trade down scenerio is nice and all, but teams are going to call our bluff. They know we won't take CJ. Or Detroit trades down before we can. I would advocate a trade down, but I don't think it is likely. I think we stay at #3.


They are not calling the Browns bluff, they are trading to jump TB who WILL draft CJ at 4. You have three choices if you want CJ, hope TB doesnt draft him, pay TB a premium for the spot, or jump TB.
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Unread postby furls » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:33 pm

The column is mostly about how we bitch and bitch at the terribleness of the line every single season and then the draft rolls around and we forget the line and focus on some new offensive star/golden boy/face of the franchise.


looks like my take was pretty much on.
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Unread postby jb » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:02 am

The column is mostly about how we bitch and bitch at the terribleness of the line every single season and then the draft rolls around and we forget the line and focus on some new offensive star/golden boy/face of the franchise.



Like Courtney Brown, Gerad Warren, and Jeff Faine?

Look, in all of our drafts, we'ver taken 3 linemen, 4 skilled position players, and a 3 - 4 OLB in round one.

I'd call that balance.

I nfree agancy, OLmen after OLman , as ell as DLmen, have been our biggest dollar signings from the Clark to the Butch to the Savage regiemes. Comparatively speaking, we haven't spent dick on skilled position players.

The REAL downfalls as to why the OL, and DL's, are sub par are as follows:

1. Clark & Butch trying to build skill position player foundations from picks 2 & 3 and ignoring the lines...

2. Phil doing the same with skilled players and DB's...


You build your OL and DL from picks 2 - 5. Look at what we did ?!?!?!

It's WR's and DB's as far as the eyes can see !

Let's stop overly focussing on the first pick only and take a look at the meat of the draft where franchises build teams. I contend the picks 6 & 7 are longshots, and the heart is late day one and early day two. No one, and I mean no one, not KC eatin' fan dissin' Dewey, not Pete & Butch drafting their fav high school players, and not The Guru have invested shit in the OL, and not much in the DL.

The sum OL total in 8 years is Mel Fowler, wrongly pissed away, Jeff Faine, in hindsight wrongly pissed away, and Ike Sowells, who may have some game. Meanwhile, how many GD WR's and Corners can one have on a roster? Not enough line ball bearings have gone through the funnel, on either the OL or the DL.

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/browns.html


1999 1 1 1 1 Tim Couch QB Kentucky
2 2 1 32 Kevin Johnson WR Syracuse
3 2 14 45 Rahim Abdullah LB Clemson
4 3 1 62 Daylon McCutcheon DB USC
5 3 15 76 Marquis Smith DB California
6 4 29 124 Wali Rainer LB Virginia
7 5 15 148 Darrin Chiaverini WR Colorado

2000 1 1 1 1 Courtney Brown DE Penn State
2 2 1 32 Dennis Northcutt WR Arizona
3 3 1 63 Travis Prentice RB Miami (OH)
4 3 17 79 JaJuan Dawson WR Tulane
5 4 1 95 Lewis Sanders DB Maryland
6 4 16 110 Aaron Shea RB Michigan
7 5 1 130 Anthony Malbrough DB Texas Tech
8 5 17 146 Lamar Chapman DB Kansas State

2001 1 1 3 3 Gerard Warren DT Florida
2 2 2 33 Quincy Morgan WR Kansas State
3 3 3 65 James Jackson RB Miami (FL)
4 4 2 97 Anthony Henry DB South Florida
5 5 3 134 Jeremiah Pharms LB Washington

2002 1 1 16 16 William Green RB Boston College
2 2 15 47 Andre Davis WR Virginia Tech
3 3 11 76 Melvin Fowler C Maryland
4 4 3 101 Kevin Bentley LB Northwestern
5 4 13 111 Ben Taylor LB Virginia Tech

2003 1 1 21 21 Jeff Faine C Notre Dame
2 2 20 52 Chaun Thompson LB West Texas A&M
3 3 20 84 Chris Crocker DB Marshall
4 4 18 115 Lee Suggs RB Virginia Tech
5 5 7 142 Ryan Pontbriand C Rice

2004 1 1 6 6 Kellen Winslow Jr TE Miami (FL)
2 2 27 59 Sean Jones DB Georgia
3 4 10 106 Luke McCown QB Louisiana Tech
4 5 29 161 Amon Gordon DE Stanford

2005 1 1 3 3 Braylon Edwards WR Michigan
2 2 2 34 Brodney Pool DB Oklahoma
3 3 3 67 Charlie Frye QB Akron
4 4 2 103 Antonio Perkins DB Oklahoma
5 5 3 139 David McMillan DE Kansas

2006 1 1 13 13 Kamerion Wimbley LB Florida State
2 2 2 34 D'Qwell Jackson LB Maryland
3 3 14 78 Travis Wilson WR Oklahoma
4 4 13 110 Leon Williams LB Miami (FL)
5 4 15 112 Isaac Sowells G Indiana
6 5 12 145 Jerome Harrison RB Washington State
7 5 20 152 DeMario Minter DB Georgia

Meanwhile, take a look at the draft patterns in rounds of these teams and OL and DL in the heart & soul rounds:

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/patriots.html

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/steelers.html

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/seahawks.html

I could go on w/ the good teams.

Look, these good teams didn't hit on all thir mid round guys either. But they put enough ball bearins thru the funnel so at the other end they would up with enough OL & DL to be perennial contenders. You can do that with most all good teams.

It isn't about the number one pick when it comes to building the lines, dude.

3. Bad fucking luck, pure and simple.

That is what it is. You want me to do a pedegree of out signings and break 'em down?

Lomas Brown was a hell of an OLT. He had a better career than I bet Joe Thomas ever will. Look at where Lo was drafted and what he did in Detroit. He still had milage left. He imploaded not being abole to take rders from a guy he knew was incompetant. He started for a SB team the next year.

Roman Oben had a bad knee, and was run out of twon. SB starter the next season.

Ross Verba was a very, very good player at GB. Iowa OLman who started for a SB team as a ROOKIE at OLT protecting arguably the greatest QB of his generation. He gets a divorce and decides that he's Sonny Barger.

Tre Thomas and Joe Andruzzi - good players who got hurt when they came here.

Wollabaugh was a solid NFL vet, a better Fraley.

Tucker had some very good years here.

We kept moving Fowler around and effed him up and got impatient. He's not a great player but he is a sloid NFL starter. Butch dumps him for a great HS player who sucked after his FR season.

Jeff Faine wasn't a bad pick. He was a bad reach, but not a bad pick. He didn't have the finesse rap coming out of ND. We get impatient with him becasue we lose alot, and now he's a pro bowl alternate on a playoff team.

Bently. How do you even explain that?

Now we have Steinbach. Pray hard.

Look, if not for positively shitty luck, we should have something like this pencilled in heading into 2007:

OLT: Shaffer
OLG: Steinbach
C: Faine
RG: Bentley
RT: Tucker on his last legs and we're looking to replace him in the draft.

Depth would be Fowler & Sowells.

Dudes, that's not a good OL on paper. That is a GREAT OL on paper. It is potentially the best interior OL in the NFL. The only reason we don't have it is bad luck. Faine gets hurt and impatient Phil gives up too early on a Davis holdover, Bently is snakebit, and Steinbach is a hoss. Two solid tackles before 2006 have the potential to e upgraded by letting mid round picks develop.

None of this, and I mean none of it, is related to a solution that demand an OLT be drafted 3rd pick overall.

All that said, good column Ben. You gave us all a juicy topic and isn't tat what it's all about? I'm looking forward to much more from you. Keep 'em coming brah!
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:16 am

Jesus JB, you should just cut and paste what you just wrote and make a column out of it. :eek: :o :-o

Complete agreement, BTW.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:23 am

JB, another sound, well thought out post. I agree with your takes, 100%.

Except for the fact that we shouldn't take Joe Thomas. The trends you point out so well is actually the same reasons I have for taking him. You say we have taken linemen 3 times. I am not talking linemen, I am talking offensive linemen. We have taken 1.

Look, if not for positively shitty luck, we should have something like this pencilled in heading into 2007:

OLT: Shaffer
OLG: Steinbach
C: Faine
RG: Bentley
RT: Tucker on his last legs and we're looking to replace him in the draft.

Depth would be Fowler & Sowells.

Dudes, that's not a good OL on paper. That is a GREAT OL on paper. It is potentially the best interior OL in the NFL. The only reason we don't have it is bad luck. Faine gets hurt and impatient Phil gives up too early on a Davis holdover, Bently is snakebit, and Steinbach is a hoss. Two solid tackles before 2006 have the potential to e upgraded by letting mid round picks develop.


If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. This is what we do have:

LT: Shaffer
LG: Steinbech
C: Fraley
RG: McKinney
RT: Tucker

Now that is not a great, good or mediocre offensive line. Shaffer is adequate at LT, but could be a very good RT. Tucker is not a very good RT, but could be great depth for the tackle positions or possibly even the starting RG, which is fine. He could also be broken down, crying in the huddle or on the IR. We don't know. If he does not come back, who is going to play RT? Butler? Sowells? A guy WE HOPE falls to us in round 2?


It is time for this team to change its focus. If it costs us Adrian Peterson or Brady Quinn, so be it. RB's are QB's can be found. Those are positions to chase through FA. All-Pro potential LT's do not become free agents. They get drafted, penciled in to the lineup right away and set up shop for 7-10 years.
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Unread postby yogi » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:24 am

JB, great points made.

I echo Consig's suggestion to make a column out of it.

Swerb, start the editing!
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Unread postby swerb » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:25 am

Yeah, I'm gonna clean that up and make a front page column out of it for this weekend.

Solid take as always JB.
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Unread postby jb » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:40 am

Pup wrote:JB, another sound, well thought out post. I agree with your takes, 100%.

Except for the fact that we shouldn't take Joe Thomas. The trends you point out so well is actually the same reasons I have for taking him. You say we have taken linemen 3 times. I am not talking linemen, I am talking offensive linemen. We have taken 1.

Look, if not for positively shitty luck, we should have something like this pencilled in heading into 2007:

OLT: Shaffer
OLG: Steinbach
C: Faine
RG: Bentley
RT: Tucker on his last legs and we're looking to replace him in the draft.

Depth would be Fowler & Sowells.

Dudes, that's not a good OL on paper. That is a GREAT OL on paper. It is potentially the best interior OL in the NFL. The only reason we don't have it is bad luck. Faine gets hurt and impatient Phil gives up too early on a Davis holdover, Bently is snakebit, and Steinbach is a hoss. Two solid tackles before 2006 have the potential to e upgraded by letting mid round picks develop.


If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. This is what we do have:

LT: Shaffer
LG: Steinbech
C: Fraley
RG: McKinney
RT: Tucker

Now that is not a great, good or mediocre offensive line. Shaffer is adequate at LT, but could be a very good RT. Tucker is not a very good RT, but could be great depth for the tackle positions or possibly even the starting RG, which is fine. He could also be broken down, crying in the huddle or on the IR. We don't know. If he does not come back, who is going to play RT? Butler? Sowells? A guy WE HOPE falls to us in round 2?


It is time for this team to change its focus. If it costs us Adrian Peterson or Brady Quinn, so be it. RB's are QB's can be found. Those are positions to chase through FA. All-Pro potential LT's do not become free agents. They get drafted, penciled in to the lineup right away and set up shop for 7-10 years.


Pup, the problem I am having with this board is we're all too reasonable. :lol: Not enough hate.

Seriously, I'm not that far away from your point either. If I come out of Saturday with an OL of Shaffer , Steinback, Frahley, McKinney/Sowells, and Thomas, I'm not throwing "YOU DRAFTED A FULLBACK AT NUMBER 7 OVERALL !!!!" bricks at the TV. I'd be pretty happy. And BTW - if I play Thomas as a rookie, I think about starting him at ORT.

But I's also have you remember that Frye and DA are still taking snaps and handing off to an oft injured RB with lots of carries and zippo depth behind him. The net result of that QB duo is every bit as detrimental to the team as Rehberg and Zahursky returing and comprising the right side of the OL. Don't you see that? Don't you see how BAD Frye is even when he had more than adaquate time and Drone was having some success? Frye : drives : : Casey Blake : rallies.

Itr's a two year plan and there are arguably as good or better OLT's coming out next year than Thomas we still will be slotted to take.

Will we be slotted to take a franchise QB again, if there is one?

Or will there be another RB like AP (possibly in the kid from Arkansas) ?

It sounds lame, but on draft day if we take CJ, Quinn, JMR, AP or Quinn, I won't be postal in any way.

PS - She's still yer aunt. Until our preposterously bad luck changes we ain't getting better nomatter who we get.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:07 am

Maybe this will make you feel more at home:

FU JB and your stupid, idiotic ramblings. I am the smartest poster alive, therefore my thinking that Joe Thomas is the only good pick has to be gospel. You are wasting your time and my eyes by pointing out the ineptitude of one of the worst drafting trends in NFL history and I hate you for it.

On to the real world....

Here is my take about the 28th.

Only JeMarcus Russell will draw my ire. I think he has bust written all over him. He played on, what was possibly the most talented group of athletes in the country over the last couple of years and won squadoosh. He is a work-out warrior, with the great arm, the questionable brain, and the minimal heart. Fat, lazy and arogant is not the recipe for a stud QB, IMO.

Brady Quinn makes an awful lot of sense. If Romeo cannot get the straight scoop on him, then I don't know who can. It could have a hand on why RAC is still the head coach.

Adrian Peterson is a difference maker. No doubt. Injuries, be damned. Grind it out for 30 carries? He can do it. Bust a long one to turn the tides in a game? Damn skippy he can. I still believe adequate running backs can be found off the scrap heap, in later rounds, but if you are ever going to draft one early, this would be the one.

Joe Thomas, well I think you all pretty much know my take here. He makes the entire offense better, even skiddish Mr. Frye. Maybe not Joe Montana better, but good enough to compete at this level. He slides other linemen into better positions, and improves the depth of a unit that we seem to kill people at.

Trading down is still the way to go, but if Detroit beats us to it, what are we going to do? I think it is a longshot.
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