KWII has microfracture surgery?

[consigliere]

Will post a link when I feel like checking it out, but heard on the radio this morning he had microfracture surgery this offseason. Boy, did this come out of nowhere. Isn't microfracture surgery a pretty risky and serious surgery? Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[pup]

no, no, no, no. He had his knee scoped and cleaned out. Microfracture is like a 10 month rehab. I am prettu sure that news doesn't sneak past too many people.

[Dozen]

I dunno, but Winslow is still on crutches. I think consig may be right.

[consigliere]

Pup, WTAM reported that the surgery in fact was NOT a knee scope, but was microfracture surgery.

[consigliere]

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/foo ... 755581.htm

Posted on Thu, Feb. 22, 2007

Winslow recovery will take months
Type of knee surgery isn't always successful
By Patrick McManamon
Beacon Journal sportswriter

INDIANAPOLIS - Kellen Winslow's comeback from offseason knee surgery will be quite a bit more involved than first impressions indicated.

Winslow, a Browns tight end, had microfracture surgery on his right knee Jan. 30, a process that takes four months to rehab.

The surgery is delicate, and although results have improved, it has not always been successful.

Microfracture surgery replaces damaged or lost cartilage. Small holes are drilled in the knee bone to promote blood flow. Scar tissue forms, replacing the damaged cartilage.

The procedure takes 30 minutes (according to Wikipedia) and is performed arthroscopically, but it requires the patient to use crutches for six to eight weeks and prohibits strenuous athletic activity for four months.

Although some athletes -- notably basketball players -- have come back as good as new, some football players have not.

Former NFL running back Terrell Davis' microfracture surgery did not help him, but his was a last-gasp operation.

Former Browns defensive end Courtney Brown had microfracture surgery and was never the same.

Carolina Panthers running back DeShaun Foster has come back well, but a teammate, receiver Patrick Jeffers, did not play again.

In basketball, Amare Stoudemire of the Phoenix Suns and Jason Kidd of the New Jersey Nets are among those who have played at a top level after microfracture surgery.

That Winslow needed the procedure showed what he played through last season, when he tied a Browns record with 89 receptions.

Winslow continually said he was playing on one knee. Now it's evident why -- his right knee's cartilage essentially was missing by season's end.

The injury and procedure are just further damage to a knee that Winslow wrecked in a motorcycle accident in May 2005. He also suffered from a staph infection after the surgery to repair a torn ligament in the knee.

Winslow came back to play well last season. He conceded that he will never be what he was before the accident, but he contended that 90 percent of him is better than any other tight end in the league.

General Manager Phil Savage said Tuesday that the team expects Winslow to be back full-go by June or July, which should make him available for training camp if his knee responds.

Savage, who did not detail the microfracture procedure, said it's not known whether Winslow will take part in the team's June mini camp.

[pup]

Oh my God.

I am so sick and tired of these teams outright bullshitting the fans. Why would you say it was just a simple scope. You know the truth is going to come out at some point and you are just going to look like Jackasses (as if they don't already).

[consigliere]

I blame the lame-ass media in this town. How many times are stories put on the backburner? I bet some of the media people knew of this surgery weeks ago. Or, about the real reason Z is missing games. Or, why Arthur Rhodes left the Indians. Etc. We figured out those reasons on our own, but the fact the media in this town coddles the teams is sickening. The media in NY, LA, Chicago, etc is not so nice. Yes, the Cleveland media has shown some class in regard to Z and Rhodes, but there is no such thing as class these days in the media.

[pup]

Well, Phil himself said in his presser that KW had arthroscopic surgery to clean out some scar tissue.

[furls]

well now it appears as though the Browns may need:

1 center, 2 guards, 1 tackle, and one tight end. At least they are set at RT.

[swerb]

Savage said he was expected to be 100% by July, well before the start of camp.

Love him, hate him ... Winslow was a god damn warrior for this team this season. Played the whole year in massive pain, couldn't practice on Tues or Wednsdays, and walked with a noticable limp all year when not in between the white lines.

We saw about 65% of KW2 this season, and it was still good enough to set the team record for catches.

The proposition of a healthy KW2 is frightening.

Here's hoping they cleaned everything up, and this kid can actually run this season.

[consigliere]

Here's hoping they cleaned everything up, and this kid can actually run this season.

Agreed on all points....

But I am fearful to God that this blows up on us....sort of like how Lechuck went from being expected back in 2007 to maybe never.

[swerb]

I couldn't believe both Winslow and Braylon made it through the year without having to be DLd. The odds of that? With both of em having their knees cut on in the off-season?

I distinctly remember predicting close to a 0% chance of those two both making it to the finish line.

Bottom line, this offense desperately needs these two kids healthy and producing. If you shore up that OL, Winslows knee allows him to run more than 8 yd buttonhooks, and Braylon actually hangs onto a couple balls ... you're talking about giving opposing defenses some serious shit to worry about. I've always liked Joe J and Heiden also.

[jb]

Savage said he was expected to be 100% by July, well before the start of camp.

How do you know Phil is spinning?

His lips are moving.

Rack pup and tony re: the fibs and lame ass media.

This is the first I've heard of it and this makes me sick. Winslow and Wimbley are the only two really good players on the team. I don't mean "potentially good" like Etwards and "sorta good" like Bodden. I mean pro bowl good.

Fuck
Fuck Fuck!

[jb]

I blame the lame-ass media in this town. How many times are stories put on the backburner? I bet some of the media people knew of this surgery weeks ago. Or, about the real reason Z is missing games. Or, why Arthur Rhodes left the Indians. Etc. We figured out those reasons on our own, but the fact the media in this town coddles the teams is sickening. The media in NY, LA, Chicago, etc is not so nice. Yes, the Cleveland media has shown some class in regard to Z and Rhodes, but there is no such thing as class these days in the media.

Why did Rhodes leave?

[consigliere]

Remember, Rhodes was put on bereavement list in 2004 and never returned. The media never said why.....but it come out through the net that his son/daughter was sick with a life threatening illness or whatever. I don't remember the details 100%, but it was something like that.

[jb]

Remember, Rhodes was put on bereavement list ... and never returned.

Isn't that waht they did w/ Carmona after the 5 blown saves?

[papacass]

It might not have been a case of the Browns lying to our faces, or the media not doing their jobs.

It might be that Winslow went in for a simple clean-out surgery on the knee, and further examination found that the cartilage had deteriorated to the point that he needed the microfracture surgery.

The same thing happened to Amare Stoudemire.

[pup]

Come on Papa. You do not believe that for a second.

[consigliere]

Microfracture surgery was done Jan 30th. We just found out about this on Feb 22nd...over three weeks later. Bottom line, the Browns were not being very honest with their info.

[Dozen]

Can you blame them? Ever hear Savage use the phrase "run to the hills". The only thing I care about is this guy being ready for training camp. They do not need to notify me of the change in his surgery, and I sure as hell dont need someone telling me that Z's wife miscarried. Now if this surgery turns out to be something that carries into next season, I'd be a lil more upset. But at the end of the day, they didnt drill holes in his kneecap just for the hell of it. It obviously needed to be done. I find it funny how some people are so eager to attack anything to do with the Browns, but yet turn the other way when the Indians seem to find away to pass any injury riddled players physicals.

[pup]

Dozen, come on. Since the surgery was performed, Phil Savage has talked to the media and said Winslow had arthroscopic knee suregery, just to clean things up. Now, almost a month later it comes out that he had microfracture surgery instead, which not only has a longer recovery time (which I think the fans deserve to know) and a more likely chance of not recovering from 100% (which the fans deserve to know).

It is all about accountability. Whether anyone likes it or not, the front office is accountable to the fans, who buy the gear, tickets, concessions so on and so so on. When did people have to renew their season tickets by? Pretty funny if it was last week. I doubt it was, but this is a long line of BS coming out of Berea. Remember McCutcheon?

[Dozen]

So long as he doesnt miss any of next season, I dont care......honestly

[pup]

But it is MICROFRACTURE surgery. There is no gaurantee that he won't miss part of the season. There is no gaurantee that he won't be done, forever. It is not a surgery that you just gloss over. When Ted Washington needs quad bypass in the next couple of months and they announce he is getting a haircut, will you be ok with that?

[consigliere]

They do not need to notify me of the change in his surgery,...

I completely disagree.

Microfracture surgery is SERIOUS surgery. It is a HUGE deal to go from a meaningless knee scope which we all thought was the case to microfracture surgery. I mean, it would be like if the Indians said CC Sabathia only had shoulder tendonitis and shelved him a few weeks.....then 3 weeks later we find out he had Tommy John surgery. Okay, Tommy John is much more serious than microfracture surgery, but I hope you get my point.

Now if the injury runs into next season, I'd be a lil more upset. But at the end of the day, they didnt drill holes in his kneecap just for the hell of it. It obviously needed to be done.

This is why it is such a big deal. Had the surgery not been a knee scope, but instead something else minor, then no big deal. But, this IS an injury that affects his status for next year. Savage and the Browns have a right to tell the fans, we pay their freaking salaries! As a ticketbuying fan, I want them to be upfront and honest with me. They don't have to tell us everything, like the deals and stuff they have behind closed doors....but keeping the fans abreast of the health status of players, especially the only Pro Bowl caliber player on our roster, is a must.

I find it funny how some people are so eager to attack anything to do with the Browns, but yet turn the other way when the Indians seem to find away to pass any injury riddled players physicals.

No one is eager to attack the Browns here. This is just example number 1,456,589 of how assinine this org is. Yes, Phil believes the fans have a "woe is me" mentality....but get over it Phil. It is what it is. Build us a freaking winner and we'll get over ourselves and stop crying. Until then, everything will be doom and gloom. Accept it, or get the hell out of here.

I'm just so fed up with the Browns. There was a time when I sugar-coated everything, made excuses, and was overly positive with them like I am with the Indians. The Browns and Indians were 1A and 1B as far as my sports love went.....but that has changed in the last few years. It was sometime during the 2004 season where it just hit me and I have really been apathetic of the Browns ever since. I no longer get all geaked up for SUnday football....no longer get pissed when they lose, or over-joyed when they win. I'm just numb to this team right now. And, I know this is a growing epidemic in this town.

I'd probably be the same way with the Indians, but I do believe in what they are doing. If they fail to deliver in the next 1-2 years, I may go postal on them like I did the Browns.....although, one thing that will always probably prevent that is with the Indians it is not all about winning for me. I just love baseball, especially minor league baseball. So, even when the Indians suck, I spend 60% of my time watching the minors anyway.

[Dozen]

I feel your pain T, I'm just opposite with the Browns/Tribe. The day Dolan took over, I lost any hope.

[leadpipe]

Just a comment on the soldier. I know someone that lives close to him that said he had a noticeable limp while walking his dog. This was BEFORE the motorcycle accident. Point is he had a MAJOR knee problem before the accident caused him a second one. Two major injuries to the knee both requiring multiple surgeries. If we should assume anything we should assume that he might not ever be the player physically that they drafted. I would have to say it would be a suprise if he ever gets to where he was physically.

[Dozen]

Funny how the motorcycle accident erased another phrase that could have gone down in infamy like "the drive", "the fumble", "red right 88". Thanks to K2, we dont have "the onsides kick".

[furls]

The scary thing about microfracture surgery is that because of its elevated failure rate, it is kind of a surgery of last resort. Guys, don't get this surgery unless it is NECESSARY (in all caps).

This tells us a couple of things:

1.) KWII is a very VERY tough man with a serious degree of dedication to what he does.

2.) His career is in jeopardy.

See here is where microfracture is different than Tommy John Surgery. Tommy John surgery has a horrific recovery but is largely successful. Microfracture surgery, because of the nature of the surgery, has a shorter recovery to utilitarian use but it can take years before it is "right" (or as good as it is going to get in any case).

The KWII that we get next year, even with a best case 4 month recovery, is not that KWII that we are used to.

[mswerb]

I dig the monkey with the guitar.

[Dozen]

I dig the monkey with the guitar.

You can have it if you want it, Im changing it soon as I find another.

[Dozen]

Post-surgery interview with K2, on right in ESPN Motion
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/index

[jb]

The scary thing about microfracture surgery is that because of its elevated failure rate, it is kind of a surgery of last resort. Guys, don't get this surgery unless it is NECESSARY (in all caps).

This tells us a couple of things:

1.) KWII is a very VERY tough man with a serious degree of dedication to what he does.

2.) His career is in jeopardy.

See here is where microfracture is different than Tommy John Surgery. Tommy John surgery has a horrific recovery but is largely successful. Microfracture surgery, because of the nature of the surgery, has a shorter recovery to utilitarian use but it can take years before it is "right" (or as good as it is going to get in any case).

The KWII that we get next year, even with a best case 4 month recovery, is not that KWII that we are used to.

Rack all that Furls. I'm wichu.

PS - Miss yer avitar.

[General]

Check this out....sounds a little positive, unfortunately I have to agree with everyone else, the KW2 we will see will be a ghost of what might have been.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 007255.htm[/url]

[Dozen]

Winslow's knee raises a red flag
Microfracture procedure delicate, but Browns downplay seriousness
By Patrick McManamon
INDIANAPOLIS - A friend from the NBA e-mailed when he read that Browns tight end Kellen Winslow had microfracture surgery on his right knee.

``The word `microfracture' is the most feared in the NBA,'' he wrote. ``No NBA player has been able to successfully return without a full season off. Players who have come back early have almost always had more problems.

``This is what cost Amare Stoudemire all of last season and Jason Kidd months a few years ago. Of course, both came back and have become All-Stars.''

The Browns, of course, would prefer to stress the latter half of the statement.

There is no getting around the delicate and serious nature of microfracture surgery -- a procedure that involves drilling small holes into the bone around the knee to promote the growth of scar tissue that replaces cartilage.

Some guys come back; some guys don't.

Winslow told the Associated Press last week that it was his decision to have the surgery, and that it was done to alleviate pain in his knee.

Browns General Manager Phil Savage said the microfracture process of Winslow's surgery was not as drastic or serious as it might sound.

``When you hear microfracture, there's a lot of negative connotations to that surgery,'' Savage said. ``I don't think this was quite as extensive as some of the others that have gone on over the years. He did have some scar tissue cleaned out and the cartilage part involved the microfracture.

``From what I understand, it was not as extensive as other players have had in the past.''

The Browns initially released that Winslow had surgery to ``repair cartilage damage,'' but had they explained the microfracture procedure in full initially, some of the negative connotations might have been avoided.

That being said, the team insists that it is not worried about Winslow's return.

``Joe Andruzzi had a microfracture surgery in his career,'' coach Romeo Crennel said. ``Hey, he plays pretty tough. I know that guys have had it. They've come back from it. I don't see any reason why any other player couldn't come back from it.''
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/16780761.htm

[swerb]

Great column on this coming from Mansfield Lucas tomorrow ...

[swerb]

Interesting piece on microfracture surgery ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime ... d=tab3pos2

Suns coach Mike D'Antoni started an interesting discussion during a pre-tipoff chat before Wednesday night's Phoenix-over-Dallas epic. He threw out the idea that we might have to revise some of those long-held notions about microfracture ranking as the NBA's death sentence if you judge by the comebacks of Utah sixth man Matt Harpring, Portland's better-than-ever Zach Randolph and a certain Amare Stoudemire with D'Antoni's Suns.

"I think they're getting better at the procedure," D'Antoni quipped.

I'm not as convinced as he is, but there's little argument that we're seeing multiple success stories unfold in the West. For a change.

Stoudemire's freakish athleticism undoubtedly has helped him recover in stunningly quick fashion, which didn't seem possible as recently as training camp when you remember how far away he looked back in October from resembling the rim-attacker we see now. Yet don't forget that the Suns' medical staff made it clear from the start that Stoudemire's age (24) and the comparatively small size of the lesion in his knee would give him some significant advantages.

Randolph, meanwhile, always had the advantage of playing a ground-bound game, which is a polite way of saying that he didn't have a lot of athleticism to lose when he had the surgery in the summer of 2005. In a way, though, Randolph's case still makes Stoudemire's recovery look impressive, since this is Randolph's second full season since the surgery and only Amare's first.

Harpring's case is also unique. He's had two microfracture surgeries on the same knee (right) and endured long stretches over the past couple seasons in which he was forced to adhere to playing-time restrictions. He continues to serve the Jazz well as a glue guy, especially given Andrei Kirilenko's struggles this season, but you also have to acknowledge that Harpring and, say, New Jersey's Jason Kidd didn't suffer from lost explosion in their games as much as some of high-profile strugglers after microfracture surgery like Chris Webber and Penny Hardaway.

Medical experts stress that the impact of this procedure, unlike some surgeries, has always varied widely from patient to patient based on the size and location of the operated area. An ACL tear is an ACL tear, but a microfracture surgery can range from significant to career-altering. The age of the player likewise plays a significant part.

It's safe to say we won't be talking about this any less next season with Denver's Kenyon Martin scheduled to become the first NBA player to attempt a comeback from microfracture surgery on both knees.

[furls]

Medical experts stress that the impact of this procedure, unlike some surgeries, has always varied widely from patient to patient based on the size and location of the operated area. An ACL tear is an ACL tear, but a microfracture surgery can range from significant to career-altering

and this is why it is a surgery of "last resort." I am not saying that guys who get this are on their last legs, but make no mistake about it, this is nothing like a voluntary knee scope.

[FUDU]

If one has the POV that the Browns will greatly improve this year but still not fight for a post season spot than this news is no big deal. Not having KW2 wouldn't make or break us.

However if one is of the school of thought that the Browns could improve and fight for a playoff spot than this news could potentially be devastating. Make no mistake about it, Winslow means that much to this offense that him being out of action for game(s) will make or break the season.

The Browns DO NOT make the playoffs without Winslow, no two ways about it.

I expected big things from the decision makers in how they utilize KW2 this year and for him to be off the field for anywhere from a few games to half of them would really slow the progression of this offense down IMO.

[jb]

If one has the POV that the Browns will greatly improve this year but still not fight for a post season spot than this news is no big deal. Not having KW2 wouldn't make or break us.

However if one is of the school of thought that the Browns could improve and fight for a playoff spot than this news could potentially be devastating. Make no mistake about it, Winslow means that much to this offense that him being out of action for game(s) will make or break the season.

The Browns DO NOT make the playoffs without Winslow, no two ways about it.

I expected big things from the decision makers in how they utilize KW2 this year and for him to be off the field for anywhere from a few games to half of them would really slow the progression of this offense down IMO.

FU , DU. KW2 when healthy, if he could ever get healthy again, would be the best receiving TE in the NFL. It'd be a crushing blow to lose the only # 1 pick before Wimbley who lived up to billing.

[FUDU]

FU , DU. KW2 when healthy, if he could ever get healthy again, would be the best receiving TE in the NFL. It'd be a crushing blow to lose the only # 1 pick before Wimbley who lived up to billing.

I agree he would be, what I am saying is if this team isn't at the point of contending for even a playoff berth than him not being around for a full season is no big deal really. To be honest it would be better if they shut him down last year in week 10 or 11 after we saw that we have what we thought we would get when we drafted him. Having him on the field to go 4-12, finish on a 4 game skid and go winless in the division wasn't necessary, we could have done that with him getting healthy.

Now if this team is ready to be in the hunt come the final few weeks then most certainly he would be missed a great great deal.

Call me crazy but you are of the opinion that the Browns are making the jump to possibly being a playoff team this coming season?

[/quote]

[wmurphyhh]

Call me crazy but you are of the opinion that the Browns are making the jump to possibly being a playoff team this coming season?

I don't know, but Shaun Smith was on Sirius on Friday afternoon. He guaranteed the Browns will make the playoffs this season.

[Dozen]

I don't know, but Shaun Smith was on Sirius on Friday afternoon. He guaranteed the Browns will make the playoffs this season

He's got better odds of getting a staph infection.

[General]

With the Browns' healthcare record that is almost an even money bet.

[pup]

Kellen out for 2007 according to those idiots at pro football news. So much for a minor scope

Let's all begin the candlelight vigil that they are wrong, or get ready for sky to fall. Also, this brings CJ back into the equation.

[Dozen]

OK, Now if this is true Im pissed. Why wouldnt they have shut him down earlier in the season? Funny how this comes out after season tix are paid for.

[docstank]

6-8 weeks on crutches is automatic. They are drilling cuts in the bone which will take that long to heal, I can guarantee that. Next rehab insues which as previously mentioned, at least four months. Early return can result in overcompensation and damage to the contralateral knee.(other side)
Another fact regarding this surgery, even if successful the cartiledge "grown" in the knee capsule will not duplicate the original, it will be weaker version with a shorter life span. Not to be negative put this truely changes him forever.
The key is the fact that he is not rushed to return it can lengthen an already lengthy recovery and can in the end significantly shorten a career. So in the end, I think a person of his age has a good chance a "successful result", in reality, however a four month return to the NFL is not very likely in my opinion.

[Dozen]

Well since they basicly turned his knee into a whiffle ball, I hope he starts to wear knee pads. I remember alot of low shots he took on that knee.

[swerb]

6-8 weeks on crutches is automatic. They are drilling cuts in the bone which will take that long to heal, I can guarantee that. Next rehab insues which as previously mentioned, at least four months. Early return can result in overcompensation and damage to the contralateral knee.(other side)
Another fact regarding this surgery, even if successful the cartiledge "grown" in the knee capsule will not duplicate the original, it will be weaker version with a shorter life span. Not to be negative put this truely changes him forever.
The key is the fact that he is not rushed to return it can lengthen an already lengthy recovery and can in the end significantly shorten a career. So in the end, I think a person of his age has a good chance a "successful result", in reality, however a four month return to the NFL is not very likely in my opinion.

Man, I wish we had a doctor on staff that could write a front page column about this.

[jdrake10]

I don't fault anyone at the Browns for keeping the details of this surgery secretive. If this info was given out sooner, it would have only started "the sky is falling" comments even sooner. If Winslow is indeed out for the season, then he is out. Nothing anyone can do about it. The Browns organization being up front about the surgery won't change anything there so who cares.

It appears Winslow should have had this surgery during last season though. My guess is the team made the decision to wait and Winslow went along with that rather than miss more game time. I think Winslow will do whatever the team tells him since they treated him so well after his Evel Knievel impersonation.

[pup]

Sorry Drake, but I disagree 1000000%. You cannot withold this type of information from the people who are paying your salary, then let it leak one week after season ticket holders are asked to reup for the season. It makes you look like a Mickey Mouse organization.

Accountability for a team starts at the top. If the front office is not accountable to their board of directors (fans), then why would coaches be accountable to the front office, then players to the coaches? It is a trickle down.