Drafting QB's

[Dozen]

good read on drafting Qb's

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6407854

When you take a quarterback early, you're married to him. Misfiring on a quarterback pick in the top five can cripple a team for several years. You can make up for gaffes at other positions, but unless you hit the jackpot and luck out, when you take a quarterback, you have to expect to wait at least two years before he learns the ropes. So either you get the pick right and you're hiding your expensive investment for a while as he gains experience, or you missed and did nothing for a few years and then have to start from scratch. Take David Carr (please). Houston drafted him with the No. 1 pick, stuck with him by giving him an extension before last year, and passed on Young. Quarterback is the one position you can't go with the best-player-available theory of drafting, so you had better be in love with the guy if you're taking him in the top 10.

[pup]

Amen

[Dozen]

The Houston Chronicle's John McClain has heard that the Browns "want Adrian Peterson desperately."

He's a perfect fit in Cleveland, who badly needs a starting running back. Peterson is also nearly certain to make it past Oakland, Detroit, and possibly Tampa, if the Browns lose the coin flip to determine the third pick in the draft.



The Dayton Daily News reports the Browns have Oklahoma running back Adrian Peterson "in their sights."
Peterson has a good shot to get past Oakland, Detroit, and Tampa Bay even if Cleveland loses the coin flip for the No. 3 pick. Arkansas DE Jamaal Anderson, Brady Quinn, and Wisconsin LT Joe Thomas will likely all draw Cleveland's eye as the draft season picks up, although the Browns have shown a penchant for Oklahoma players in recent drafts

[dpdad]

I would have no problem with selecting AP, so long as the Browns can get a veteran QB in free agency. But they need to pick up at least one o-lineman on the first day of the draft to block as well.

[yogi]

I would have no problem with selecting AP, so long as the Browns can get a veteran QB in free agency. But they need to pick up at least one o-lineman on the first day of the draft to block as well.

What kind of QB can we get in FA? Servicable? Mild upgrade compared to what we already have?

No thanks. The idea of servicable OL and DL appeals to me way more than a so-so QB.

I'm OK with getting Quinn and Russel with our 1st pick. Heck, Kiper's latest has Brady dropping all he way to 9 and Miami. Shoot, I'd trade down in a heartbeat to Minny at 7 and make Houston sweat that we take AP, maybe take another pick and move to 8 and get Quinn.

I think Quinn will be afine NFL QB, but he's have to win over the Browns fans in a hurry.

[Dozen]

This is from a guy called iceness on realgm, he is apparently a scout for the lions who used to work for the browns and still has some ties here.

Something I heard tonight, from the person who told me 3 weeks before the actual signing last year about LeCharles Bentley coming home:

David Carr is a pretty good bet to be the starting QB in Cleveland next year. It's beyond preliminary talks, and if the price I heard is legit, Browns fans should be happy. Now whether or not Carr is a signficant upgrade, who knows...

[consigliere]

Dave Carr.

[Dozen]

Didnt say I was pumped, just what I read.

[sandlot33]

he's better than what we have

[consigliere]

Yeah, he's better than what we have.....but I guess I expect lot more from the QB position.

[pup]

I wonder what "the price I heard" is?

Carr, Houston's pick in the 1st for the 4?

[consigliere]

You know, after thinking about it, I could probably live with Carr. Maybe a change in scenery would help.

But, I just don't see the Browns trading for him. He makes like $5M in 2007 and $6M in 2008. He'll likely be a cap casualty in a few weeks, and he'll be a FA to sign with whatever team he wants. I wouldn't trade for him and give up anything unless that deal is restructured and more years are added.

[Dozen]

Could be Pup, It's being speculated that they want AP after passing up Bush last year. I can honestly see merit to this though.

[The Score]

I'm not a big fan of Tedford QBs, but I would take Carr over anyone currently on the roster or over drafting any of the rookies this season.

A trade to get AP would allow Houston to move on from Carr while appearing to bring in a quality replacement player in Peterson (as opposed to letting Carr go for nothing).

[sandlot33]

I like Carr better because he is more accurate and throws less INT's than Frye/Anderson, while having the worst OL in football

[pup]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6449380


This is actually a mock draft from fox, but the relevance to this topic is he has Houston taking Quinn, and says the Texans will be trading Carr to either Cleveland or Jacksonville for a 3rd or 4th.

[The Score]

So Jacksonville is going to dump both Garrard and Leftwich?

sketchy

[Dozen]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6449380


This is actually a mock draft from fox, but the relevance to this topic is he has Houston taking Quinn, and says the Texans will be trading Carr to either Cleveland or Jacksonville for a 3rd or 4th.

That makes sense since he went on to say that is was swapping in a couple of rounds and maybe a player. It appears that its being at least discussed by both organizations. Carr is better than Frye, but it doesnt exactly make me feel all warm and fuzzy at the thought of him in Orange and Brown.

[pup]

So Jacksonville is going to dump both Garrard and Leftwich?

Pretty sure they will keep Garrard. They would battle for the starting spot in TC. Leftwich would get moved (Minnesota).

[The Score]

So Jacksonville is going to dump both Garrard and Leftwich?

Pretty sure they will keep Garrard. They would battle for the starting spot in TC. Leftwich would get moved (Minnesota).

Not that NFLers exactly have no trade clauses, but why would Carr ever agree to a trade where he would have to compete for a starting job? If he were cut loose, there are enough teams out there that need a starter that would potentially be interested in him as a starter outright(Cleveland being an obvious one). Especially if Jacksonville doesn't give Carr a new deal, then he would be operating without a net. He could lose the QB battle and then just wind up a training camp cut with no repercussions to the Jaguars other than a lost draft pick.

Also, why would Jacksonville want to take on Carr's salary if he could potentially only be a backup?

I just don't really understand why anyone would be interested in this deal (other than the Texans).

[pup]

Not that NFLers exactly have no trade clauses, but why would Carr ever agree to a trade where he would have to compete for a starting job?

1. He will be competing for a job even if he stays in Houston.
2. The lack of a no trade clause essentially means he has no say.

Especially if Jacksonville doesn't give Carr a new deal, then he would be operating without a net. He could lose the QB battle and then just wind up a training camp cut with no repercussions to the Jaguars other than a lost draft pick.

If he is not willing to walk into a training camp and compete against David Garrard, then scratch him off my list, I don't want him here.

Also, why would Jacksonville want to take on Carr's salary if he could potentially only be a backup?

Because if he doesn't work out, they can cut him, much like you said.

I just don't really understand why anyone would be interested in this deal (other than the Texans).

I don't either, but it is not the only place I have seen Jax listed as a possible destination for Carr. It is probably the Texans getting this info out there to drive down the asking price of the couple of teams that would want him.

[Guest]

From what I've seen discussed here...

1. The Texans might be willing to trade David Carr.

2. Jacksonville might be willing to trade Byron Leftwich.

Let me just go on record as saying I would MUCH rather have either one of those guys rather than drafting a Quinn or Russell really high in the 1st round.

Reasons?

1. If they are traded to the Browns, the salary cap implications of their signing/roster bonuses stays with their former team, so they probably won't be too hard on the cap. And even if Carr is making $5 mil a year, it's still more cap friendly than a QB taken at #3 or #4. Plus, there's probably good odds of restructuring...

2. I've seen enough of them and know they have enough experience to think that they could do well elsewhere. They're high 1st round draft choices that have the tools but haven't really lived up to the hype, and could perhaps blossom somewhere else.

3. They would instantly be far and away the best QB on the team. There might be lip service about "competition" with Frye, but, in reality, it's no contest.

I wonder what "the price I heard" is?

Carr, Houston's pick in the 1st for the 4?

I'd do that in a hearbeat. Not only do you get your QB, but you get to move back 4 or 5 picks in the draft, which saves you millions, and you still get an Adrian Peterson or an Amobi Okoye.

[The Score]

Not that NFLers exactly have no trade clauses, but why would Carr ever agree to a trade where he would have to compete for a starting job?

1. He will be competing for a job even if he stays in Houston.
2. The lack of a no trade clause essentially means he has no say.

Especially if Jacksonville doesn't give Carr a new deal, then he would be operating without a net. He could lose the QB battle and then just wind up a training camp cut with no repercussions to the Jaguars other than a lost draft pick.

If he is not willing to walk into a training camp and compete against David Garrard, then scratch him off my list, I don't want him here.

Also, why would Jacksonville want to take on Carr's salary if he could potentially only be a backup?

Because if he doesn't work out, they can cut him, much like you said.

I just don't really understand why anyone would be interested in this deal (other than the Texans).

I don't either, but it is not the only place I have seen Jax listed as a possible destination for Carr. It is probably the Texans getting this info out there to drive down the asking price of the couple of teams that would want him.

1. As it stands right now, if Carr stays in Houston, I don't see any realistic scenario where Sage Rosenfels or Bradlee Van Pelt have any shot at even a competition to be the starter.

2. Yes it does, he can say "I'm not going to Jacksonville." The Jaguars aren't going to give away a draft pick to essentially play chicken with some QB's career, There aren't any real penalties for Carr if he says he won't play there.

3. As far as not being willing to compete against Garrard, why should he agree to a competition anywhere other than Houston that isn't on his terms. If the Texans don't want him then they can release him and let him go on his way.

4. Unless Jville plans on starting Carr, I don't know why they would give up a pick to take on his salary. As a FA acquisition it wouldn't be bad, but to give up a 3rd or 4th for a guy who might make the team is silly.

5. I just don't get the whole Jacksonville angle, I guess. It just baffles me.

[pup]

1. As it stands right now, if Carr stays in Houston, I don't see any realistic scenario where Sage Rosenfels or Bradlee Van Pelt have any shot at even a competition to be the starter.

They are bringing in Jake Plummer, it is more of a sure thing than Carr going anywhere. Kubiak likes Plummer. Worst case for Carr is staying in Houston.

2. Yes it does, he can say "I'm not going to Jacksonville." The Jaguars aren't going to give away a draft pick to essentially play chicken with some QB's career, There aren't any real penalties for Carr if he says he won't play there.

3. As far as not being willing to compete against Garrard, why should he agree to a competition anywhere other than Houston that isn't on his terms. If the Texans don't want him then they can release him and let him go on his way.

Same answer for both of these: If David Carr has this kind of power, then maybe that is why the Texans are so bad. If he wouldn't want to leave Houston, to play for Jacksonville, even if he has to compete for a job is well worth the risk.

4. Unless Jville plans on starting Carr, I don't know why they would give up a pick to take on his salary. As a FA acquisition it wouldn't be bad, but to give up a 3rd or 4th for a guy who might make the team is silly.

Extremely valid. Unless Houston convinces Jax they will trade him somewhere. Or convince Cleveland they will trade him to Jax. Either way one of these two is going to end up either taking a big chance, or trading a pick for him. Drumming up interest in someone you are trading is very common.

5. I just don't get the whole Jacksonville angle, I guess. It just baffles me.

There might not be a Jax angle. It is something that has been reported a couple of times, that is all. Hopefully the Browns don't get sucked in.

[swerb]

I think people read too much intoi drafting a QB high.

Of course it's a bigger risk than other positions. In all of sports, there is not tougher position to play than QB in the NFL. Clearly, you're going to have a higher % of guys not be able to cut it, even guys drafted in the top ten.

It's a risk/reward thing, and does take balls of steel, especially picking #3 or #4.

If you hit, like Indy did with Manning, or Cincy did with Palmer, or SD did with Rivers, or Philly did with McNabb ... the rewards are great.

If you miss, like we did with Couch, the Dolphins did with McNown, or the Chargers did with Leaf ... you're fucked. It's really that simple.

The thing is though, like with left tackles, it's hard to find a franchise QB outside of the top ten picks in the draft. If you are confident there is one in your sights, you gotta roll the dice.

Given the Browns history and luck, Russell would be a big gamble for this franchise. However, I truly believe the Browns gotta take Brady Quinn if hes on the board when they pick.

But again, if they deal for Carr or Leftwich ... or sign Huard, they won't even consider it.

[leadpipe]

Look, I think the major thing the Browns need to accomplish is to draft a good player period. This hasn't been easy for them to do recently, even though each and every year they've needed just about everything. I also understand the trepidation people have with drafting qb's high. With that being said, it is naive for teams to think they need a qb who "just won't lose the game for us" or "will provide veteran leadership" There comes a time in every game where the player at that position needs to make plays. 3rd downs foer example. These are things that win games. For those of you who feel it doesn't matter who is back there because of the line, well, that's a credible argument. Another credible argument is if you have 4 all-pros on the line and a total cipher behind center, the line won't matter that much either.

I don't really care who they draft as long as it's a top flight player. I will say this though, if you had a choice of a lineman, a running back, a Defensive lineman or a quarterback and you knew ahead of time they would all be excellent players, you take the quarterback if you have half a brain. We are all worried (with good reason) that the Browns are going to draft poorly. If we had confidence in them, and they had drafted well in the past, people would be thrilled if they selected a qb with that pick.

It is the most important position on the field.

[pup]

Well said.

I agree 100%.

[swerb]

Agreed ... good post Pipe.

[Dozen]

Pipes, as always very valid points........but I would still like someone to please explain to me why Brady Quinn is a top 5 pick. What has he ever done to validate this?

[furls]

apparently folks like his prototypical size, arm strength, and clean cut all-americanism.

Wait a minute, did I just describe Brady Quinn or Todd Marijuanavich.

[leadpipe]

Pipes, as always very valid points........but I would still like someone to please explain to me why Brady Quinn is a top 5 pick. What has he ever done to validate this?

I agree. I also think Russell is a mistake two. Neither has done well in step-up games. But, I don't get paid 6 figures to decide such things.

[furls]

I am not really a big fan of any of the QBs in this year's draft. I would like to see Troy in Cleveland, but I am not sure if it is because I like pulling for him or because I think he would be good for the team.

[jb]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6449380


This is actually a mock draft from fox, but the relevance to this topic is he has Houston taking Quinn, and says the Texans will be trading Carr to either Cleveland or Jacksonville for a 3rd or 4th.

Good Gawd, we could get David Carr for a 4th rounder?

Steal.

Eventually, most of these guys wil talent get it and can play in the right situation. Carr has talent. He's been starcrossed. This reminds me of getting Vinny.

You fix the OL with 2 choices and a FA after drafting A Pete in round 1 w/ Carr, and you are talking a huge leap on paper.

The DL my need to wait until the 08 draft, but given the wheel spinning of 05 this team is 2 seasons away from being > .500.

[Guest]

Look, I think the major thing the Browns need to accomplish is to draft a good player period. This hasn't been easy for them to do recently, even though each and every year they've needed just about everything. I also understand the trepidation people have with drafting qb's high. With that being said, it is naive for teams to think they need a qb who "just won't lose the game for us" or "will provide veteran leadership" There comes a time in every game where the player at that position needs to make plays. 3rd downs foer example. These are things that win games. For those of you who feel it doesn't matter who is back there because of the line, well, that's a credible argument. Another credible argument is if you have 4 all-pros on the line and a total cipher behind center, the line won't matter that much either.

I don't really care who they draft as long as it's a top flight player. I will say this though, if you had a choice of a lineman, a running back, a Defensive lineman or a quarterback and you knew ahead of time they would all be excellent players, you take the quarterback if you have half a brain. We are all worried (with good reason) that the Browns are going to draft poorly. If we had confidence in them, and they had drafted well in the past, people would be thrilled if they selected a qb with that pick.

It is the most important position on the field.

I agree with this.

I also agree with a couple other posters that - in my opinion - neither JaMarcus Russell nor Brady Quinn are that type of player.

We have too many needs to reach for a QB just because QB is the most glamorous and most important position on the field.

[Dozen]

Exactly, just cuzz a guy is top 3 at his position, doesnt mean he's a top 10 pick.

[Guest]

Exactly, just cuzz a guy is top 3 at his position, doesnt mean he's a top 10 pick.

Ding ding ding ding!

I'm making that my new sig line.

[Dozen]

. The Browns and Texans have progressed beyond preliminary talks about dealing David Carr to the Browns for LB Chaun Thompson and swapping 1st round picks, with the Browns getting a later extra pick. The Texans really want Adrian Peterson and are willing to dump Carr to get him. Apparently those Jake Plummer-to-Houston rumblings are serious too, though this person told me that he wouldn't rule out Byron Leftwich as the Texans QB next year. I'll believe that when I see it though...

[Dozen]

Posted on Tue, Feb. 13, 2007email thisprint this
Browns' big worry not quarterback
Lineman, cornerback positions present more important dilemmas
By Terry Pluto
Scribbles in my Browns notebook...

• While they don't say so, it's no secret that the Browns would like to sign free agent Eric Steinbach, the outstanding guard from the Cincinnati Bengals. The Browns want him as a guard to replace free agent Cosey Coleman. They also have major questions about veteran guard Joe Andruzzi, who is having physical problems. Finding guards is one of the key quests for the offseason.

• Here's the hitch: Some teams might want Steinbach as a left tackle. If they do, that raises his price tag enormously. Think of the offensive line as a baseball bullpen and the left tackle as the closer, the guy making the big cash. Most scouts think that Steinbach would be an acceptable tackle, but he's developing into a big-time guard. The Browns would prefer him at guard.

• The Browns hope Isaac Sowells can develop into a starter at guard or tackle. He was the team's fourth-round draft pick a year ago out of Indiana, where he was a left tackle. He had a major ankle sprain and some other physical problems that set him back in training camp.

• Hank Fraley played well enough at center for the Browns to make an offer for him to return -- and he supposedly has a strong interest in coming back. While Fraley is no LeCharles Bentley, the Browns think he's OK. Besides, they know they have bigger problems looking for two guards and at least one tackle.

• When the Browns decided to hire Rob Chudzinski as offensive coordinator over Jeff Davidson, it was clear that Davidson wanted another job. The Carolina Panthers hired him as offensive coordinator. Panthers coach John Fox has a good relationship with Notre Dame coach Charlie Weis, and it was Weis who spoke out strongly for Davidson. Weis and Davidson worked together under Bill Belichick with the New England Patriots.

• The problems between General Manager Phil Savage and Davidson were typical of a coach/GM. The coach favored his veteran players, especially Andruzzi. Savage wanted to look at someone else at guard because he thought that Andruzzi was so banged up physically. There might have been some other disagreements, but the main problem was the Browns did not want him back as offensive coordinator.

• Steve Marshall is the new offensive line coach. He was out of football last season, still being paid by the Houston Texans. He was paid off by the Texans when coach Dom Capers and the rest of the staff were fired. It seems suspect to hire a coach who had so much trouble protecting the quarterback for the expansion Texans, but the good news is Marshall was one of Nick Saban's first hires when he went to the University of Alabama. Marshall had an out in his contract with Alabama that allowed him to go to the pros, which he did when the Browns called.

• Confession time: Other than coordinators, it's very hard to judge how most assistants perform. You never know what is their area of responsibility, etc. At least, that's my view. With the coordinator, you can see the play calls. But even then, it's possible the head coach overrules them. So is Chudzinski a good pick to run the offense? I have no idea.

• It took a three-year contract to get Chudzinski from the San Diego Chargers, where he knew he was on a short string as tight ends coach because coach Marty Schottenheimer appeared headed out the door following 2007. Schottenheimer was fired Monday night. The Miami Dolphins wanted to talk to Chudzinski for offensive coordinator, so the Browns decided to push hard and keep the Ohio native home.

• Chudzinski is working on his relationship with wide receiver Braylon Edwards. He already knows Kellen Winslow well, because Chudzinski was Winslow's tight ends coach in college. He also was with the Browns as an assistant in 2005 when Winslow was injured.

• The Browns are high on quarterback coach Rip Scherer, who was the second choice after Chudzinski for offensive coordinator. They gave him the title of ``assistant head coach,'' the same one that Davidson received a year ago when the New York Jets wanted to hire him as an assistant.

• When it comes to evaluating young quarterbacks, the Browns find it hard because they went through two offensive coordinators last year, the offensive line was a mess and running back Reuben Droughns had a poor year. How much do you blame Charlie Frye or Derek Anderson for that? It's not an easy question, even though some fans think picking a quarterback would solve many of the problems on offense. If so, they are conning themselves.

• You're Jerry Rosberg. You have been the Browns special teams coach for the past six years through three coaches. Everyone likes your work. Your contract is up. You are a free agent, and the Atlanta Falcons make you a nice offer. The Falcons have a new head coach, and you figure that he has to be around for a few years. You like Romeo Crennel, but this is his third year -- and who knows if there will be a fourth? That's why Rosberg left -- security. It also has to be discouraging for him to have been through six years of all the trials (and few successes) with the Browns.

• The decision to replace Terry Robiskie with Wes Chandler as receivers coach obviously is an attempt to connect to Edwards with a coach who can command his respect. The Browns, with a recommendation from team scout/adviser Paul Warfield, turned to Chandler, who made four Pro Bowls and caught 56 touchdown passes in his distinguished career. His last job was coaching the receivers for the Minnesota Vikings in 2005. Chandler can tell Edwards, ``Look, I played the game. I was good at it. Here's how it works, here's what you need to do.''

• Edwards is telling the Browns that he plans to start fresh in 2007 and that he learned from some of his mistakes last season. The Browns are glad to hear that and hope he follows through. It's not an excuse but it's a fact that Edwards is only 23 and was handed a $17 million bonus at the age of 21 -- and that's not exactly the ideal prescription for maturity. Sometimes, these young guys with lots of cash only learn some things the hard way -- when they are embarrassed.

• Savage and his scouts are spending massive amounts of time checking out linemen on offense and defense. Savage knows the defensive line needs help quick. Ted Washington will be 39 on opening day. At 34, Orpheus Roye is showing some age. Alvin McKinley is a free agent, and the Browns are not sold on him as a starter. They like Simon Fraser as a backup but think that they need, at least, two defensive lineman to boost the 3-4 defense.

• The Browns will talk to free safety Brian Russell, but it's a long shot that he'll be back. The reason is the Browns are confident in young safeties Brodney Pool and Sean Jones. They are very worried at cornerback, where they have only Leigh Bodden as a healthy veteran starter. So you can talk offensive linemen, defensive linemen and cornerbacks as big needs -- and bigger keys to next season than drafting a quarterback high.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[consigliere]

Anyone not passing off QB as a big need is fooling themselves. It may not be THE need, but it is up there.

If they can nab Carr in a trade, I'd be down with that. The other trade and FA options don't interest me.....and with that, unless they trade for Carr, I would like to see a QB taken on day 1, and would not throw a fit if we take one #1.

[Guest]

Lets draft a QB #1 so we can ruin another career.

[leadpipe]

The Browns did not ruin Couch's career, just like the Buccaneers didn't ruin Youngs' They just happen to draft a horrible player number one. If he was halway decent he would stil be in the league somewhere.

[Guest]

He(Couch) can't get back into the league because of arm problems from getting beat like a drum for a few years

The OL needs to be addressed first and foremost

[leadpipe]

He can't get back into the league because
A. He didn't have a strong arm in the first place
B. He can't see the field
C. He can not read defenses
D. He's not the brightest bulb to play the position
E. He isn't going to test well because of the above.
F. Not being able to contribute to reading defenses etc. makes him useless as a back-up

Don't kid yourself, he has all that number one pick vigorish and even that couldn't get him another look. The browns need to fix the line, that doesn't mean they are ruining Frye. If you can play that position yoyu are in the league. He was just a bad player. Incidentally I found it curious that his agent deemed him healthy for certain tryouts until he failed that his agent went to the ole' sore arm. You will never see him again.

[Guest]

How many qbs have gotten hurt here since 1999?

[Dozen]

He can't get back into the league because
A. He didn't have a strong arm in the first place
B. He can't see the field
C. He can not read defenses
D. He's not the brightest bulb to play the position
E. He isn't going to test well because of the above.
F. Not being able to contribute to reading defenses etc. makes him useless as a back-up

Don't kid yourself, he has all that number one pick vigorish and even that couldn't get him another look. The browns need to fix the line, that doesn't mean they are ruining Frye. If you can play that position yoyu are in the league. He was just a bad player. Incidentally I found it curious that his agent deemed him healthy for certain tryouts until he failed that his agent went to the ole' sore arm. You will never see him again.

Lets not forget the failure to put the 12 plays Kentucky had into the gameplan.

[Dozen]

Anyone not passing off QB as a big need is fooling themselves. It may not be THE need, but it is up there.

If they can nab Carr in a trade, I'd be down with that. The other trade and FA options don't interest me.....and with that, unless they trade for Carr, I would like to see a QB taken on day 1, and would not throw a fit if we take one #1.

I totally agree it's a need, but I cant see Quinn, Russell being that guy for any team. Carr would be an upgrade over Frye and relativly cheap for a former #1.