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Unread postby Guest » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:02 am

I have always thought Frye and the QB situation is the least of the Browns worries. THe OL is garbage.
After seeing Rex Grossman make it to the Super Bowl it makes me even more convinced of this.
Grossman is Terrible
He has to be the worst QB to start a Super Bowl
We have to draft linemen and address that or we will never win shit, ever.
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Unread postby furls » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:46 am

to add further credence to this argument...

My personal opinion on RBs is that there is not quite the "talent cliff" (severe drop off after the top couple) at this position as there is in other positions. Basically, you can draft a RB late or sign one in free agency and you will be just fine. Yeah, there are the special guys out there (LT, Reggie Bush, etc.) but they are rare. Reggie Bush is the only guy I can honestly say I thought was going to be head and shoulders better than his peers at that position.

The running back position is more about the line (look to the Broncos for proof of this statement), than the guy behind it and the same is true for the QB position. A good line will not make a bad quarterback good, but a bad line will make a good quarterback bad.
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Unread postby The Score » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:09 am

I agree that the Browns need to fix the lines on both sides of the ball before they do anything else.

However, that doesn't mean that Charlie Frye isn't still garbage. I would take Grossman over Frye and not even think twice about it, at least Grossman has an arm. Frye, once again, is garbage.
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Unread postby furls » Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:48 am

I am not 100% sold on Frye as "garbage." I am only about 85% convinced. In order to be 100% convinced, I would have to see how he played if he had a few seconds before he started running for his life.

Now, that said. I am pretty sure that he is not the answer. Even more distressing to me than his arm "strength," which is suspect, is his decision making and leadership (which appear to be non-existant). I would like to see him play behind an improved O-line before we flush him, besides, better he take the beating (if the line sucks this bad next year) than someone with some potential.

Even if Frye had some potential at one point, I wonder if he will always suffer from a case of "Cleveland Happy Feet." The same disorder Couch caught as a means of self preservation.
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Unread postby pup » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:31 pm

I feel much the same way about Charlie Frye as I do RAC. It is impossible to judge where they are in terms of being "right for the job" until they get suitable talent to go along with them.

I don't think anyone will doubt that the biggest hole of any unit, possibly in the entire NFL, is the Browns offensive line. I am past blaming anyone for that fact, as long as that fact changes in the next few months.

If we get some help on the line and Frye still looks like a bitch, and RAC is still nothing but the marshmellow man in orange, then they both are gone, and Phil is probably not far behind.

Please, Oakland and Detroit, make it easy on us and take Russel and Quinn. If the choice is Thomas (who I like more everyday) and Peterson, and we take Peterson, and we are the 31st ranked offense that cannot protect the QB or open any holes we get exactly what we deserve.
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Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:08 pm

I'm not saying draft a QB because they need enough that I couldn't argue which way they go, however, two points to this thread

1. 80 some super bowl starting quarterbacks. Many Hall-of-famers a number of very good ones, and, those that don't qualify as one of these listed were certainly having great years (Rypien, Williams etc.) Grossman Woodley and Dilfer are FAR more the exception than the rule. If you don't have a good player at this position, you are making it awfully tough.

2. The line problem is huge, however, Frye blows. The things he does (Throwing late over the middle, throwing across his body and the field, no pocket awareness etc) are not all line induced. The guy just isn't that sharp. At the end of the day I've seen good big QB's, good small QB's, Good rocket arm QB's, good avg. arm QB's. good fast Qb's, good slow QB's but I've never seen a good QB that is dumb or can't see the field. Chaz fits in both categories. Unfortunately, so did Couch.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:37 pm

Rack pipe.

You need a franchise QB to get to where we want to go. There are some exceptions like with Grossman and Dilfer, but those guys also have had outstanding defenses to guide them.
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Unread postby furls » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:37 pm

you need an offensive line to protect said "franchise QB." It has been shown time and time again, that given a good O-Line QBs play better and you don't necessarily even have to go with a first round QB.
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Unread postby consigliere » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:17 pm

And it has been proven time and time again you don't have to build your line with 1st round draft picks.

If you get the franchise QB now, you sit him for a year and essentially have the 2007 and 2008 draft to add long term options on the o-line to protect him, and also have the 2007 and 2008 FA period to fill in the gaps.

This is all moot though, as I see no way Russell falls to us.
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Unread postby furls » Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:21 pm

And it has been proven time and time again you don't have to build your line with 1st round draft picks.


How has that been working out for the Browns again?

If you get the franchise QB now, you sit him for a year and essentially have the 2007 and 2008 draft to add long term options on the o-line to protect him, and also have the 2007 and 2008 FA period to fill in the gaps.


Basically, you are saying, "Do what the Brown's have consistently done for the last 7 years." IT DOES NOT WORK.

Franchise QBs no longer have to sit their rookie year and "learn systems." The college game has caught up to the NFL in a lot of ways. Guys are still wow'ed by the "speed" of the NFL game, but they are not destroyed, stunned, and paralyzed by it.

Furthermore, franchise QBs don't necessarily come from the first round either.
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Unread postby consigliere » Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:58 pm

Furls wrote:Basically, you are saying, "Do what the Brown's have consistently done for the last 7 years." IT DOES NOT WORK.


The Browns have invested heavily in FAs.....but hardly any picks on o-lineman. If they dedicated 3-4 picks 1st day picks combined in the 2007 and 2008 draft, it would be a huge improvement. And, it doesn't have to be a 1st rounder....2nd and 3rd round lineman will suffice.

Again, if Russell is there, I take him without any hesitation. Since he most likely won't be, the decision comes down to the RB (AP) or the OT (Thomas). I'm not sold on either of them yet.
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Unread postby furls » Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:52 pm

The Browns have invested heavily in FAs.....but hardly any picks on o-lineman. If they dedicated 3-4 picks 1st day picks combined in the 2007 and 2008 draft, it would be a huge improvement. And, it doesn't have to be a 1st rounder....2nd and 3rd round lineman will suffice.


This is exactly what the Browns have done for seven years. Congratulations, welcome to the "can't bitch about the O-line in 2007 club."

Emerson wrote, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." I think that clearly applies here. I hope you are right. I hope the Browns can draft a franchise quarterback in the first round and build an offensive line out of duct tape and elmer's glue. This is clearly the winning formula that has served the Browns in the past.

The only way I can justify the Browns draft Peterson or Russell is if Thomas goes to Detroit. Otherwise, it is a STUPID pick. The O-line is clearly the biggest hole on the team and you, like the Browns FO, cannot bring yourself to draft a boring "big ugly" in the first round.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:48 am

The o-line gets a ton of the criticism on this team, but I don't think it is clearly the biggest problem with this team. If you ask me, the 0-line and d-line are practically equally shitty. With the QB and RB position just a tick below them in plain suck.

I am completely happy with taking an OT with the #3 pick provided this guy projects as a lock. I'm not gambling on a lineman....I'll gamble on the RB (Peterson) or QB (Russell).....but the lineman has to be a lock as a stud. If Thomas starts getting comps to the Boselli's, Ogden's, and Munoz's of the world, I'm game. But, right now, he scares the bejesus out of me as another Mandarich flop. I wasn't impressed with him at all in the few games I saw him in.

My fear here, is Browns fans will get their wish: we draft the OT with the 1st pick. Then, yet again, he busts. It can happen with any player or position for us.....but I just don't want to pigeon-hole the pick and just scream "o-line! o-line!" for that first pick when there may be better talent available in lieu of taking Thomas (Russell or AP).
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Unread postby furls » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:55 am

If Thomas starts getting comps to the Boselli's, Ogden's, and Munoz's of the world, I'm game.


Those are three of the four best tackles in the last 30 years (only guy you are missing is Pace). THat is like saying only draft a running back if he is a lock to be Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, or Marshall Faulk or only draft a QB if he is a guaranteed to be Joe Montana, Steve Young, or Dan Marino.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:54 am

Furls wrote:
If Thomas starts getting comps to the Boselli's, Ogden's, and Munoz's of the world, I'm game.


Those are three of the four best tackles in the last 30 years (only guy you are missing is Pace). THat is like saying only draft a running back if he is a lock to be Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, or Marshall Faulk or only draft a QB if he is a guaranteed to be Joe Montana, Steve Young, or Dan Marino.


Well, that's my point. I'm not gambling on an OT....I want as close to a sure-thing as possible. If Thomas is not a sure thing, I pass on him, and take the best OT available in round 2 or 3.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:55 pm

What if Thomas is really a 15th overall talent? And you can't trade down? Then you are going to pass on a guy who is instantly your best offensive lineman because he does not fit in with where your shitiness happens to have you picking? Moronic.

Draft the best offensive lineman available in round one. Draft the best offensive lineman available in the second round. Shit, draft the best offensive lineman availabe in the third round. Eliminate one problem in this draft, the problem that makes it IMPOSSIBLE to judge what other problems you have.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:12 pm

I think it is a big mistake to limit it to "best player at a pre-determined position." It is not like o-line is the only hole, this team needs players everywhere. Heck, I wouldn't complain if they drafted Calvin Johnson.

In the 1st round, it has to be best player available. Period. Then after that you draft based on need.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:05 pm

I think it is a big mistake to limit it to "best player at a pre-determined position." It is not like o-line is the only hole, this team needs players everywhere. Heck, I wouldn't complain if they drafted Calvin Johnson.

In the 1st round, it has to be best player available. Period. Then after that you draft based on need.


I know we battle about some pretty pointless things on the Tribe side of things, but this has to be the single post I have ever read from you that is completely assenine. I can see your logic on a most things we don't agree on, but not this.

That is the kind of thinking that leads to the same teams being bad every year. That is why the Lions took a WR for 3 straight years.

It does not matter what round of the draft you are in, the most important thing to do is fill the holes that you have, with the best player that fills those holes. If you think the O-Line is not the #1 need on this team, then I have to ask you to go watch the games again. There are no holes to run through, and no time for a QB.

Our entire offense is limited to running underneath routes, because there is no time to run deeper routes. The advantage that gives a defense is unmeasurable. Safeties are closer to the line of scrimmage, and blitzing becomes unnecessary because your front 4 can get tot he QB. That leads to a lot of defenders in a small space, the only space where our offense can do anything. Bock better, forcce teams to blitz, safeties to play deeper and the offense will be better.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:41 pm

Pup wrote:That is the kind of thinking that leads to the same teams being bad every year. That is why the Lions took a WR for 3 straight years.


Actually, it is your thinking that leads to that. Look, teams that are bad have MANY holes. We aren't the New England Patriots where we can pinpoint like 1-2 positions that need shored up with an immediate young starter from the first round....we could use a 1st round pick just about EVERYWHERE on this team. Not just the God-damned offensive line.

It does not matter what round of the draft you are in, the most important thing to do is fill the holes that you have, with the best player that fills those holes. If you think the O-Line is not the #1 need on this team, then I have to ask you to go watch the games again. There are no holes to run through, and no time for a QB.


When you are paying the #3 pick 7 years and $40 fucking million dollars, it sure as hell DOES matter what round you pick someone in. Reaching in the 1st round, especially in the Top 5, to fill a need is suicide. You take the BPA.

And, again, I agree the o-line has its problems. But, did you watch the games this year either? Our defensive line got pretty torn up as well. I could EASILY make the case our d-line is worse than our o-line. So, what, should we draft Alan Branch then (NO WAY!)?

This teams has big issues on the o-line, d-line, QB, RB and CB. About the only positions they are solid in are TE, S and LB. Everything else on this roster is pathetic.

Yet, the mantra with the 1st pick is "O-line! O-line! O-line!"

Freaking hilarious if you ask me.

:-) :smile: :)
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Unread postby pup » Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:31 pm

Reaching in the 1st round, especially in the Top 5, to fill a need is suicide


Except for the fact that he is not a fucking reach. I used the top 15 example to illustrate how bad I think our line is, not to rate Thomas. He is a TOP 5 pick on every draft board I have seen. So simple, quit trying to make it hard.

And I would take best DL available over either QB, Peterson, Johnson or any other iditoyic skill player out there. Football games are won on the LOS. It has been this way forever! It will not change. Ask the Cardinals. Fuck, ask the Buckeyes for that matter. When your lines get manhandled, nothing else works. NOTHING!
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:52 pm

Pup wrote:Except for the fact that he is not a fucking reach. I used the top 15 example to illustrate how bad I think our line is, not to rate Thomas. He is a TOP 5 pick on every draft board I have seen.


Yes, Thomas is a Top 5 pick. But, like I have been saying, until he gets praise as a sure-fire thing, I ain't buying it yet. I still prefer one of the QBs or AP. Keep in mind, I am not totally dissing Thomas. All along I have said it would be a tough decision between him and AP if the QBs are gone when we pick. My whol argument in this is this ridiculous mantra that "we have to go o-line with the 1st pick because if we don't the o-line will suck forever!" I didn't realize the draft ended after one round. :P :-P :razz:

And I would take best DL available over either QB, Peterson, Johnson or any other iditoyic skill player out there. Football games are won on the LOS. It has been this way forever! It will not change. Ask the Cardinals. Fuck, ask the Buckeyes for that matter. When your lines get manhandled, nothing else works. NOTHING!


I completely agree. The battle upfront usually dictates the pace and control of the game. You win the battle on the lines, you usually win. Although, you DO need to have some skill players behind those lines. I don't care if the Browns have the 1992-1995 Cowboys offensive line, Droughns is no longer effective enough and Frye would still be awful.

This team needs a RB and QB. They need some lineman. They need d-line help. They need some corners. And, they are not about to address everything in one offseason (FA and draft). It is why 2007 sets up to be another suck of a season......and also why we simply cannot focus on one position with the 1st pick. Keep your options open! If come draft time Joe Thomas is the shit and he is there, take him.....but to flat out annoint him THE GUY we need to go after right now is assinine.

And, I apply that to myself as well, as it is shortsighted of myself to say "GO QB!" with the first pick.....although my reasoning behind that is somewhat different as I am saying QB is the BPA.
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Unread postby furls » Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:33 pm

And, again, I agree the o-line has its problems. But, did you watch the games this year either? Our defensive line got pretty torn up as well. I could EASILY make the case our d-line is worse than our o-line. So, what, should we draft Alan Branch then (NO WAY!)?


Fine if it is so easy, make the case. Show me that it is worse. Show me how the defensive line (in a 3-4) has more of an effect on a team and the outcome than the offensive line. D-Line in a 3-4 is about taking up space and blockers. Prove your point. That is a direct challenge.

THe "Consig Plan" as I will now call it is retarded. Draft a franchise quarterback so he can sit on the bench while the team flounders for another year. This team does not have that luxury, period. If there is not marked improvement, immediately, than Crennel is fired and his staff too and we start all over.

Now, once the line continues to suck as we piecemeal, electing to go for "franchise players," and Frye's numbers continue to alienate the masses, how long do you think the Browns will be able to keep said "franchise QB" on the bench? How many weeks will it take, 6? 8? 10?

To sit back and say you wont take a chance on a big ugly as you consider gambling on Russell is ridiculous. Quinn is probably a bit more stable as a prospect, but QBs are exactly that, prospects, just like Joe Thomas. If Thomas is gone, than the Browns should trade down to 15 or so and go after Levi Brown, maybe they can get a 3rd and use that to get a guard. The bottom line is that if the Browns don't devote all of their assets to big uglies this year, they will be this bad next year.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:52 am

Furls wrote:THe "Consig Plan" as I will now call it is retarded. Draft a franchise quarterback so he can sit on the bench while the team flounders for another year.


Okay, now you are just being a jerk.

I will cut and paste my reply from my previous post:

This team needs a RB and QB. They need some lineman. They need d-line help. They need some corners. And, they are not about to address everything in one offseason (FA and draft). It is why 2007 sets up to be another suck of a season......and also why we simply cannot focus on one position with the 1st pick. Keep your options open! If come draft time Joe Thomas is the shit and he is there, take him.....but to flat out annoint him THE GUY we need to go after right now is assinine.

The thing that has obviously gone way over your head is that I am fine with Joe Thomas. I've said it like 9-10 times already. He's one of my top 3-4 choices. O-line is one of my 3 positions I have targeted to fill with that first pick. My grumble is this assinine mantra being adopted by Browns fans that it should be o-line or bust with the first pick. I'm simply stating we should keep our options open, which means if a QB is there or a RB (AP) is there when we pick we better seriously consider them (I personally take the QB).

Bottom line is this, the Browns WILL NOT BE GOOD IN 2007. Anyone who thinks otherwise, needs to check themselves. They have a ton of work to do, and Phil Savage even said it in his State of the Browns address a few weeks back. We can't fix everything in one offseason, we just have too many holes. If we make a couple nice picks and FA pickups, it will go a long way at establishing this franchise in 2008, and where in 2007 maybe we can go somewhere around 6-10 to 8-8.

As a season ticketholder this pains me to have to shell out for yet another season of suck....but I do believe that if they have a solid offseason, things may start to look good near the end of 2007. I personally take the QB and sit him for the year....but I realize that it may not happen that way especially given Crennel/Savage's standing right now.
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Unread postby pup » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:42 am

To make Tony happy, my new mantra is:

Draft Joe Thomas because he is worthy of that pick and we NEED an o-lineman.

I bet if you asked 32 GM's, they would say JeMarcus Russell has at least twice the chance at being a bust as Joe Thomas. AT LEAST.
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Unread postby wmurphyhh » Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:17 am

It's very simple...
The Browns have a lot of holes. You can't evaluate anyone else on the offense until you fix the line. We should be taking Thomas with our first pick if he is available. Now Matt Millen may actually have a moment of sanity and pass up Calvin Johnson to take Joe Thomas. So what do we do ?
Take another 'franchise QB' to sit on the bench or get his ass kicked. How did that work out for Couch ? What about Dave Carr ? Someone mentioned Palmer in Cincy. Look back and you'll see that Cincy used high picks on the OL for a couple of years before drafting Palmer.

If Thomas is gone, you trade down and draft Levi Brown. No one can say that we do not need the picks.

I'd be happy with Brown in the 1st round, Michael Bush in the 2nd, and CB or DL with another 2nd round pick. That would be a solid 1st day.
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