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Pluto Says It Perfect - Romeo MUST GO

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Pluto Says It Perfect - Romeo MUST GO

Unread postby swerb » Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:57 pm

www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/16359125.htm

Questions linger about Crennel's future
By Terry Pluto


HOUSTON - You don't want to make a change just to make a change.

That's been the best argument made by some in the Browns organization for keeping Romeo Crennel as coach.

But it's not a good enough reason.

The Browns correctly realize Crennel can't be blamed for much of what happened this season, from a very demanding schedule to an overwhelming onslaught of injuries that ended with a 4-12 record after Sunday's 14-6 loss in Houston.

When you evaluate a coach, you must ask, ``What is under his control?''

Then you ask, ``How did he handle those situations?''

Finally, you ask, ``Does he have the leadership skills necessary to turn around the Browns?''

What the Browns can't do is say, ``Well, there's no big-name coach available, so we might as well give Romeo another shot -- even if we're not sure he's the guy we need.''

One theory is the Browns will bring back Crennel while Bill Cowher sits out next season, the last on his contract with the Pittsburgh Steelers. Then if the Browns still stumble, they make a big move for Cowher in 2008.

That's just dumb.

It's writing off 2007. It's gambling that Cowher would come in 2008. It's wasting another year.


Another rationalization for keeping Crennel is the Browns are playing a 3-4 defense, and they just switched to it from a 4-3. If they hire another coach, he mighty want to go back to a 4-3 -- and that means changing some players on defense again.

So you retain a coach in which you have doubts just to keep a defensive scheme in place? Does that make sense?

An Important Question

As the Browns evaluate Crennel, it should not be about pleasing the fans, or finding someone to blame for a fourth consecutive season of at least 10 losses.

Before the draft, before signing free agents, before dealing with the numerous weaknesses facing the team -- the Browns must ask if Crennel has shown the necessary leadership skills in his first two years.

At the very least, the Browns must replace several assistants. They probably need a big-time offensive coordinator, because Crennel's expertise is on the defensive side of the ball. The offense this season was plagued by more than a shaky line -- it had a complete identity crisis.

Too often, you asked, ``Just what are they supposed to be doing out there?''

Crennel has never clearly explained his vision for the offense. Maybe he doesn't have one, or maybe he doesn't want to impose his will on his coordinator.

Neither is an adequate explanation or a compelling endorsement for having confidence in Crennel.


Crennel was 6-10 in his first season. It appeared the Browns had stabilized after the final two years under Butch Davis when players didn't trust the front office and there were some significant discipline issues.

But this season, Crennel was tested by some of the players. He didn't always respond well. A coach can't control what a player says or does -- but he can dictate the consequences when a player makes poor decisions.

On Braylon Edwards

Most Browns fans know the deal with Braylon Edwards being late for some meetings, questioning play calling and the actions of his own teammates. There is a strong sense that Edwards is purely out for Edwards, and that he was allowed to get away with too much before Crennel finally benched him at the start of the 15th game.

Too little, too late.

It's crucial the Browns turn Edwards into an impact player. His contract is enormous, making him difficult not to play. His talent is significant -- he came back in nine months from a major knee injury and caught 61 passes, six for touchdowns.

He sometimes makes stunning drops. He will run the wrong patterns. His production has not matched his ego. But the Browns are heavily invested in this guy, and Crennel had moments when he seemed overwhelmed by Edwards, wondering what he should do.

Often, it was nothing.

Or at least, nothing that made an impact.

Veteran Joe Jurevicius appeared disgusted by the conduct of some of the players. The former Super Bowl receiver also had to wonder why Dennis Northcutt was starting over him. No doubt the front office did, as Jurevicius was one of the key offseason, free-agent signings.

Part of the reason Jurevicius was signed by General Manager Phil Savage was to bring some leadership to the receivers. It seemed he was ignored, as was receivers coach Terry Robiskie.

You also might recall how Crennel failed to see the obvious shortcoming of former offensive coordinator Maurice Carthon, who only was fired when the front office stepped in allowing Carthon to ``resign.''

Questionable moves

Some moves this season just defied logic. Remember the punt from the Tampa Bay 27 last week? The crazy plays with the fullbacks? Kellen Winslow on the bench in some third-down situations early in the season?

That's just a partial list.

Crennel also was 0-for-7 in officials' challenges. After some games, Crennel seems a bit shell-shocked and you wondered exactly what he was watching.

``The other thing is we missed a couple of field goals,'' Crennel said on Sunday. ``Both were makeable kicks for us.''

Coach, Phil Dawson made two field goals. He missed one.

Dawson slumped at the end of the season, making only six of his last 12 attempts. But he's not close to the biggest weak spot on the team.

No one questions Crennel's commitment to winning, or his character. He's a football lifer who waited 25 years to become a head coach. He could return to being a very effective defensive coordinator.

It's hard to know who will become a good head coach. Ten new coaches opened this season, and the two biggest impacts were made by former assistants -- the New Orleans Saints' Sean Payton and the New York Jets' Eric Mangini.

A lack of head-coaching experience doesn't indicate future failure in the job. Nor does being a head coach before mean a man will win at his next stop. It's a matter of matching the right man with the right team at the right time.

But after his first two years with the Browns, there are too many lingering questions to just assume he's the right man for the job. That's why the Browns should wait before making any statements about him for next year, seeing who is available and giving serious thought to any viable candidates.

They owe their fan base at least that much
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Unread postby dpdad » Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:32 pm

Pluto is a talented writer, and I've read several of his books, but I think he is being too generous to Crennel in this column.

The Browns correctly realize Crennel can't be blamed for much of what happened this season, from a very demanding schedule to an overwhelming onslaught of injuries...


The schedule is demanding for every team, and every team has injuries. It's a cop-out to use those excuses, IMO. The 2006 Browns had more talent than any other team since the return of the team in '99. Not that they were playoff ready, but respectable. My pre-season prediction was 7-9.

Crennel is a lifetime assistant who is simply in over his head as the head guy, and should be replaced. But he's not alone in Berea. Savage also needs help as well at the management end.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:35 pm

The schedule is demanding for every team


Come on. I would trade schedules with a lot of teams in the NFL last year.

and every team has injuries


16 players on IR. Lose your starting center on the first practice snap. Both starting CB out for the year by mid season. Those are pretty harsh and difficult to overcome, especially by a team that lacks talent at most starting positions, let alone backups.



The 2006 Browns had more talent than any other team since the return of the team in '99


At skill positions, yes they do. The lines are still putrid and the Browns will continue to struggle until this is addressed.


My pre-season prediction was 7-9


So because you over-estimated what this team could do, it must be Romeo's fault?
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Unread postby furls » Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:30 pm

I base my displeasure for Crennel largely on a couple of points:

1.) His control of his team. He has 2nd year players popping off at the mouth and undermining him. If he cannot manage and focus the talent that is a problem. Being an NFL coach is as much a baby sitting job as it is an X's and O's job.

2.) His demeanor that seems to accept mediocrity and bad play from his players and coaching staff. I cannot handle a coach that rationalizes losing a rivalry game by saying, "well, we didn't lose by as much as last year."

3.) His team is undisciplined and quit on him this year.

4.) He looks as lost on the sidelines as his team does on the field. The same players in this year's line up actually seem worse than last year.

Don't give me this crap about the schedule. Yeah, there were some tough games on it, but when you play in the AFC North, there are no divisional games that are gimmie's (we are the team that everyone else considers gimme's). That means right off the bat you have 6 tough games.

The Browns also had some pretty easy games this year:

Oakland 2-14
Tampa 4-12
Houston 6-10

and they went 1-2 against those teams. Face it, the Browns were worse this year and unless Crennel changes the entire way this team plays in the next year, they will be horrible next year too.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:39 pm

1.) His control of his team. He has 2nd year players popping off at the mouth and undermining him. If he cannot manage and focus the talent that is a problem. Being an NFL coach is as much a baby sitting job as it is an X's and O's job.


Kellen got the message did he not? I didn't hear a negative peep out of him after his bashing of Carthon. Now he has to work on Braylon.

2.) His demeanor that seems to accept mediocrity and bad play from his players and coaching staff. I cannot handle a coach that rationalizes losing a rivalry game by saying, "well, we didn't lose by as much as last year."


What is he supposed to do? They do not have the talent to play with the rest of the teams in the division, you said so yourself. Everyone would be happier with him if he came to a presser and MF'ed all the players, but if that is not your style, you can't all the sudden change to it. There are coaches that yell and scream. There are coaches that are more laid back. He is of the laid back mentality. I don't see how that precludes him from being a good coach.

3.) His team is undisciplined and quit on him this year


They were the 4th least penalized team in the NFL. Does not sound undisciplined to me. Who quit? They were starting the second team on both sides of the ball the last month, on a team whose first team doesn't have the talent to compete on a weekly basis.

4.) He looks as lost on the sidelines as his team does on the field. The same players in this year's line up actually seem worse than last year


Who is worse? As for being lost on the sidelines, it is no different than the look on any other coaches face who does not have the talent on the field. Everyone's favorite guy to point at this year is Mangini, did you see the look on his face during the second half of the Pats game last weekend? He looked lost, because it was to a point where his players were not good enough to win that game.

Don't give me this crap about the schedule. Yeah, there were some tough games on it, but when you play in the AFC North, there are no divisional games that are gimmie's (we are the team that everyone else considers gimme's). That means right off the bat you have 6 tough games.


Agreed. And if you give Bill Cowher, Brian Billick or Marvin Lewis the Browns "talent" they would be 4-12.

The Browns also had some pretty easy games this year:

Oakland 2-14
Tampa 4-12
Houston 6-10


They also beat a playoff team (Jets), and were in games with the #2 seed in both conferences before the injuries spiraled completely out of control.

The biggest problem with the Browns is talent. It has been for years now and until their talent is on par with the rest of the teams in this division, no coach will make a damn bit of difference. Vince Lombardi reincarnated couldn't make this team a winner.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:57 pm

Wow. If you defend Romeo, then I just can't take you seriously anymore when you bash Wedge. Romeo has got to go. It is a JOKE he is returning.....and yet more proof this ownership and management team are completely clueless.

Instead of listing off the reasons why he should be fired, and you repsonding why that isn't true.....tell me why he SHOULD NOT be fired and what he brings to this team. About the only thing he is good for is a laugh.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:28 pm

Wow. If you defend Romeo, then I just can't take you seriously anymore when you bash Wedge


There is a gigantic difference between the two. Eric Wedge has had the most talent in a talented division for 3 years running now. Romeo Crennel has had the least talent in a talented division for 2 years.

When have you ever taken anything I say seriously :?: :lol:

tell me why he SHOULD NOT be fired and what he brings to this team


The players seem to like him.
His defense has been batter than the sum of the parts for 2 years.
He needs someone to come in here and take over the offense, no doubt, but with a skilled OC keeping his defense off the field, they would have been much better over the course of the season. The D played well early, before tiring/succumbing to injury.


How can you judge a guy who has the least amount of talent? Because you don't like the way he looks on the sideline? Because his press conferences are not informative? Give him the talent that other teams have and see what happens. Maybe he flames out and all the bashing is correct, but I am guessing if he has the players, he will win (unlike Wedge).

The NFL is about talent. The teams that stay healthy and have the best players win. It is not about coaches, for the most part. The Saints are better than ever because they have more talent than ever. Can a coach make a couple players better? Sure, but he is not going to make a difference if your talent is garbage.

Jon Gruden suddenly forget how to coach?
Jim Mora was the greatest, before his talent let him down.
Joe Gibbs is dumb now?
Jack Del Rio is no longer the toast of JAX.
John Fox is over rated?
Marvin Lewis
Tom Coughlin
Dennis Green

All of these guys at one time have been mentioned with the best coaches in the game. All had down years. Why? Tampa has no talent. Falcons WR can't catch a cold. Washington had injuries. Jax lost its D-line. Delhomme killed Carolina. Cinci's long snapper stinks. Eli can't look off a receiver. Denny Green had the Browns O-line.

We love to blame coaches, but everyone on here has also said how bad the Browns players are, so how can you judge a coach for not getting the most out of those players? Maybe that is the best the talent in Cleveland will allow him to get out of them.
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:01 pm

Ok, I'll play. If the talent that Crennel has is so bad, then fire Savage. Clearly, one of the two are not doing a good job. So, cut bait now. You can't say Crennel has no talent, but defend Savage. Savage has had two drafts and two offseasons.....

Oh, and are you saying the Indians are the most talented team in the division the last 3 years? You mean all that back and forth banter the last two years was for naught? :twisted:
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:13 pm

Ok, I'll play. If the talent that Crennel has is so bad, then fire Savage. Clearly, one of the two are not doing a good job. So, cut bait now. You can't say Crennel has no talent, but defend Savage. Savage has had two drafts and two offseasons.....


The team is more talented that it was two years ago, except for the lines. If Phil does not address the lines this off season, and they go 4-12, then fine fire both of them. When you are starting with a blank slate, sometimes you have to build the depth before you get the starters. Some positions are ready for the Browns to be good. Some are close. Some are not close (O-line). You cannot go from the least talented team from 1-52 to a talented team overall in 2 years. You have to take steps. I believe the steps have begun to be taken and with another off season respectability is getting closer.

Oh, and are you saying the Indians are the most talented team in the division the last 3 years? You mean all that back and forth banter the last two years was for naught?


When did I say the Indians were not talented? When did I say they stunk. What I have said is they are obviously not good enough to win the way they are built and most of that falls on the manager. For Wedge to win, they obviously need to be head and shoulders above everyone else.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:14 pm

I see you have dodged these points:

Jon Gruden suddenly forget how to coach?
Jim Mora was the greatest, before his talent let him down.
Joe Gibbs is dumb now?
Jack Del Rio is no longer the toast of JAX.
John Fox is over rated?
Marvin Lewis
Tom Coughlin
Dennis Green
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Unread postby consigliere » Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:43 pm

Pup wrote:The team is more talented that it was two years ago, except for the lines.


I'm not sure of that. Our two best players, Kellen Winslow and Sean Jones, are holdovers from the previous regime. The only other potential elite player we have on this roster is Wimbley, which I will give Savage credit for...oh, and LeChuck.

The rest of this roster is filled with garbage and the same over-rated crapola that the roster had when Savage took over.

We are strong in probably only two spots: linebacker and safety. Every other position we are at best below average at. This team has a long way to go to get to a respectable level. You'd think in two drafts and two offseasons, we'd be a lot further along in several positions. So, all we have improved at in 2 years is linebacker? Yuck.

You cannot go from the least talented team from 1-52 to a talented team overall in 2 years. You have to take steps.


Tell that to New Orleans. To the Jets. If you are a good talent evaluator, you can have your team playing respectable within a year or two. The average evaluators take 3-4 years at least to turn things around.
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Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:39 pm

I'm not sure of that. Our two best players, Kellen Winslow and Sean Jones, are holdovers from the previous regime. The only other potential elite player we have on this roster is Wimbley, which I will give Savage credit for...oh, and LeChuck.

The rest of this roster is filled with garbage and the same over-rated crapola that the roster had when Savage took over.

We are strong in probably only two spots: linebacker and safety. Every other position we are at best below average at. This team has a long way to go to get to a respectable level. You'd think in two drafts and two offseasons, we'd be a lot further along in several positions. So, all we have improved at in 2 years is linebacker? Yuck.


Braylon Edwards, Brodney Pool, D'Qwell Jackson, Josh Cribbs, Daven Holly, Leon Williams Kevin Shaefer and Dave Zastudil (yes I am including a punter) are all better than what we had at those spots when we started.

Ted Washington and Willie McGinest are both better than what was here when Phil arrived.

The jury is still out on Travis Wilson, Lawrence Vickers, and Rob Smith.

Tell that to New Orleans


So one team did it!

To the Jets


You mean the Jets that were 10-6 2 years ago, went through a ton of injuries last year, then drafted 2 OL this year and went 10-6 this year against one of the softest schedules in the NFL, were beaten by this Browns team and just got waxed in the playoffs?

If you are a good talent evaluator, you can have your team playing respectable within a year or two. The average evaluators take 3-4 years at least to turn things around.


If you are starting with 26 quality NFL players, two years may be acceptable. When you are starting with 4, it might take a little longer.

Still don't want to take a stab at all the good coaches I named and explain why they stunk this year?
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Unread postby Dozen » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:42 pm

The whole saints thing almost seems fixed. They get more money from the hurricane and end up with Bush and Brees.........just sayin :lol:
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Unread postby furls » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:16 pm

Jon Gruden suddenly forget how to coach?
Jim Mora was the greatest, before his talent let him down.
Joe Gibbs is dumb now?
Jack Del Rio is no longer the toast of JAX.
John Fox is over rated?
Marvin Lewis
Tom Coughlin
Dennis Green


Some of the coaches on that list are not good. Some are. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

If you are trying to demonstrate, by example, that good coaches get screwed by not having talent; I am not sure that your examples demonstrate that well.

Jacksonville is plenty talented, and managed to compete inspite of the injuries.

Marvin Lewis and the Bengals are idiots if they think that having a lockeroom with 8 offseason arrests does not project on to the field. The team has plenty of talent, and plenty of thugs too.

Dennis Green is a HORRIBLE coach.

No one that I know has ever been a big fan of Mora Jr., but I would argue that his problem is not a lack of talent, it is a franchise quarterback who cannot throw. He is being force fed a scheme that is doomed to mediocrity.

Joe Gibbs has shown nothing since coming back to the NFL, in spite of Dan Snyder's epic spending.

Tom Coughlin's team has PLENTY of talent, he just SUCKS and is clearly not "reaching his players." As a matter of fact, they hate him and tune him out.

Gruden's team has no quarterback, but they still managed to compete.

You are comparing the Browns to the worst situations in the NFL, and mentioning them in the same breath. You are OK with this? You think that the product, effort, results, and general demeanor of this team are in line with its talent level? You think that this team is really achieving and progressing?

I understand that "rebuilding" takes time. I did not expect nor demand that the Browns go 12-4 this year. What I did expect was to see this group of players play like a team. I expected to see an offensive game plan emerge. I expected to see improvement somewhere on this team. You blame the talent, and I will say that the talent is definetly up to snuff, but I will also say that this team is showing no signs of improvement.

What bothers me the most about the Browns is their inability to compete. They just don't compete, and it is not just because of talent. This team is a collection of stiffs and prima donnas. A good coach gets them all working together to achieve the common goal. That is clearly not happening. What do you think Edwards would prefer? A browns win where he is used as a decoy, or a loss where he has 3 TDs and 150 yards? I know we would all like to answer the former, but his actions and the actions of the team scream "latter."
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:03 am

Pup wrote:Braylon Edwards, Brodney Pool, D'Qwell Jackson, Josh Cribbs, Daven Holly, Leon Williams Kevin Shaefer and Dave Zastudil (yes I am including a punter) are all better than what we had at those spots when we started.

Ted Washington and Willie McGinest are both better than what was here when Phil arrived.

The jury is still out on Travis Wilson, Lawrence Vickers, and Rob Smith.


I'll disagree on those guys. All the guys you listed are at best decent players. Nothing that makes a position on the team very good (yet).

Edwards us really not much different, at this point, from Quincy Morgan. And remember, we had Antonio Bryant as a WR on this team up until last year. I don't see how this WR bunch is much different from what we have had since our return.

Pool not much different from Crocker.

Devon Holly? Who cares about this guy. What about the loss of Anthony Henry?

I do like the linebackers, but then again I mentioned it was one of the two positions I thought we were solid at.

Kevin Shaeffer? How is this guy any different from Ross Verba?

And Ted Washington? Please. I'd take Gerard Warren over him anyday.

All we've done for the most part in two years, is replace average players with more average players. There is not a whole hell of a lot different from this roster in 2006 from 2004 (remember, Winslow and Jones were on that roster).

Still don't want to take a stab at all the good coaches I named and explain why they stunk this year?


Why? Good coahes have their down years. What is your point? I mean, has Crennel ever had an "up" year? Oh, yeah, his up year was 2005 when we went 6-10. Yeah, forget everything I said about Crennel, the guy has proven to win in the past like a Gruden and others. :roll :roll:

:P :-P :razz:
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:19 am

You are comparing the Browns to the worst situations in the NFL, and mentioning them in the same breath. You are OK with this? You think that the product, effort, results, and general demeanor of this team are in line with its talent level? You think that this team is really achieving and progressing?


Bingo Furls. For whatever reason, people use comparisons to the other failing teams to show that we are not the only ones. How about comparing ourselves to the better teams and starting to demand more of this team/org? We've had such a watered down product for so long, it is almost liek the fans are brainwashed.

I understand that "rebuilding" takes time. I did not expect nor demand that the Browns go 12-4 this year. What I did expect was to see this group of players play like a team. I expected to see an offensive game plan emerge. I expected to see improvement somewhere on this team. You blame the talent, and I will say that the talent is definetly up to snuff, but I will also say that this team is showing no signs of improvement.


THis is what gets at me. A lot of people were on here saying that this team would win 7-9 games this year before the season started. Even after the LeChuck injury. The team goes 4-12, but those same people are not upset? Instead, they defend why the GM and coach must return and make excuses about the talent and injuries. Obviously, when the season starter, people saw more talent to win 7-9 games.....yet all of a sudden we lack talent once things are seen through. Such is life as a Browns fan I guess.
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Unread postby pup » Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:47 am

Bingo Furls. For whatever reason, people use comparisons to the other failing teams to show that we are not the only ones. How about comparing ourselves to the better teams and starting to demand more of this team/org? We've had such a watered down product for so long, it is almost liek the fans are brainwashed.


Sounds funny coming from the king of accepting mediocrity with the Indians.

THis is what gets at me. A lot of people were on here saying that this team would win 7-9 games this year before the season started. Even after the LeChuck injury. The team goes 4-12, but those same people are not upset? Instead, they defend why the GM and coach must return and make excuses about the talent and injuries. Obviously, when the season starter, people saw more talent to win 7-9 games.....yet all of a sudden we lack talent once things are seen through. Such is life as a Browns fan I guess.


First, upset does not even qualify my feelings towards the Browns. Like I replied on the other post, I seriously underestimated the teams on our schedule (Ravens/Saints) to account for the difference in wins.

14 players on the IR (I know some were on there late, but that accounts for playing poorly in their last 2). Plus JJ missed 3 games, 2 OL started 16 games, never starting the same line more than 2 weeks in a row (I think), Frye missed 3 games, Northcutt missed 3 games, Droughns missed 2 games and played with one shoulder in most of the games he did play, starting LBs missed 4 games, Bodden missed 7 games, Baxter played 3 games, McCutcheon played zero games. That is 26 starts missed by your top 3 corners. Brian Russell missed 4 games.


Edwards us really not much different, at this point, from Quincy Morgan


Please. This is a guy that busted his ass to come back from an injury almost 8 weeks early. He needs to mature, but he is way better than Quincy Morgan.

Devon Holly? Who cares about this guy. What about the loss of Anthony Henry


Ask Dallas how happy they were with Travis Henry this year. they are getting ready to move him to free safety because he is not a great cover corner.

Kevin Shaeffer? How is this guy any different from Ross Verba


Better, younger and hopefully just held down the fort playing out of position at LT.

And Ted Washington? Please. I'd take Gerard Warren over him anyday


I would hope, and so would I if we played a 4-3. We don't. Warren would get killed playing the middle.

Why? Good coahes have their down years. What is your point? I mean, has Crennel ever had an "up" year? Oh, yeah, his up year was 2005 when we went 6-10. Yeah, forget everything I said about Crennel, the guy has proven to win in the past like a Gruden and others


The point is why do they have down years. Injuries, loss of talent. The same reasons the Browns were bad.
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:30 pm

Pup wrote:Sounds funny coming from the king of accepting mediocrity with the Indians.


I'd kill for the Browns to be just mediocre. :lol:

14 players on the IR (I know some were on there late, but that accounts for playing poorly in their last 2).


This is where I have a problem. People act like what we lost with those 14 players on IR were doing anything to begin with. The loss of LeCharles clearly hurt, and maybe Roye and McCutcheon hurt our depth somewhat.....but what about the other 11 guys on IR? Can you even name them? You mean to tell me Cosey Coleman was THAT valuable? Did Baxter do anything before he was hurt? WTF does William Green matter? J'Vonne Parker? Jason Wright? Jeremy Lesuer? Ethan Kelley? Andrew Hoffman? Kelly Butler? Derek Anderson? Half the guys on the list were garbage anyway.....but the fans make it out like the 14 guys on IR all had meaningful impact for this team.

The Browns suffer just as many injuries as anyone else. I'm tired of the excuse. The Patriots had 15 guys on IR, the Saints had 11 guys on IR. The Colts lost Doss to IR. THe Eagles lost McNabb to IR. The Bears lost guys like Mike Brown and Tommie Harris to IR. The Seahawks played a good chunk of their season without Alexander, Hasselbeck and Jackson on offense.

Injuries just are no longer an acceptable excuse to me. Everyone plays with them. We act like we lost a group of good performers. We didn't. We mostly lost depth or shit starters to IR or injuries.

Please. This is a guy that busted his ass to come back from an injury almost 8 weeks early. He needs to mature, but he is way better than Quincy Morgan.


At this point, Edwards is no better than Morgan. Both suffer from the dropsies, but in Morgan's 2nd year he also put up 56/964/7. Edwards put up 61/884/6. I'd like to think Edwards is better (and I'm mostly being a devil's advocate here), but the production to date through their first two years doesn't say so. And, even if Morgan is a stretch, has Edwards out performed Antonio Bryant yet?

The point is why do they have down years. Injuries, loss of talent. The same reasons the Browns were bad.


Of course, to lose talent, you have to have had it to begin with. DOH! :twisted:
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Unread postby pup » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:42 pm

I'd kill for the Browns to be just mediocre


So true it almost hurts.

This is where I have a problem. People act like what we lost with those 14 players on IR were doing anything to begin with. The loss of LeCharles clearly hurt, and maybe Roye and McCutcheon hurt our depth somewhat.....but what about the other 11 guys on IR? Can you even name them? You mean to tell me Cosey Coleman was THAT valuable? Did Baxter do anything before he was hurt? WTF does William Green matter? J'Vonne Parker? Jason Wright? Jeremy Lesuer? Ethan Kelley? Andrew Hoffman? Kelly Butler? Derek Anderson? Half the guys on the list were garbage anyway.....but the fans make it out like the 14 guys on IR all had meaningful impact for this team.


That is accurate. That is why I tried to diminish the impact somewhat from the guys that were on IR. It was more about the guys who lost time with various injuries, but were not on the IR. The other point is the guys that you have pointed out are not all that great. They are however important to the depth of the team. Most of those guys will/should be relegated to depth in the coming year.

The Patriots had 15 guys on IR, the Saints had 11


Talk about a non descript group of guys on the IR. Those names coulebe more pointless than the group the Browns had :roll :roll:

Of course, to lose talent, you have to have had it to begin with. DOH


And if you don't have talent at the starting positions, how good can your backups be? Not very good! So how can you hold a coach responsible for these guys not playing better? You can't win without talent, I don't care who your coach is. If that means it is Savage's fault, then so be it. All I have said is you can't fire a coach for sending him to a gun fight every Sunday with a slingshot.

On Savage, we will see. He has to hit a home run in this draft/FA period or he will be in trouble.

With Crennell getting another year, I am pretty sure this is what Randy is telling us: These two will go down together. If you replace Romeo now, Phil does a shitty job in FA and the draft then Phil gets fired next off season and the new GM will probably want to hire his own coach. So are we going to change coaches again next year?
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:56 pm

With Crennell getting another year, I am pretty sure this is what Randy is telling us: These two will go down together. If you replace Romeo now, Phil does a shitty job in FA and the draft then Phil gets fired next off season and the new GM will probably want to hire his own coach. So are we going to change coaches again next year?


Oh joy. Wake me after the 2007 season. I'll get excited again for this team and org next off-season when we finally decide to make the move to get a new GM and coach.
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Unread postby Dozen » Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:28 pm

Consigliere wrote:
With Crennell getting another year, I am pretty sure this is what Randy is telling us: These two will go down together. If you replace Romeo now, Phil does a shitty job in FA and the draft then Phil gets fired next off season and the new GM will probably want to hire his own coach. So are we going to change coaches again next year?


Oh joy. Wake me after the 2007 season. I'll get excited again for this team and org next off-season when we finally decide to make the move to get a new GM and coach.


Here we go, you want Savage to draft the QB of the future, but want a new gm and coach in '08? When is your plan for them to be at least competitive? I mean seriously......................
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Unread postby consigliere » Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:58 pm

This team cannot be competitive next year. Sure, we could go out and sign a bunch of retread FAs and get to 7-9 or 8-8. But screw that. Let's go with the kids they recently drafted, and mix in some of the new draft picks.

Can Crennel now. Keep Savage. Get the QB in the first round, take an 0-lineman in the 2nd or 3rd round and fill in as needed with other picks, then in FA get a top quality lineman like Steinbach and a top quality d-lineman is available. If a CB is available, explore that too.

But, one thing I agree with Savage on from the horrible PC the other day is that we can't fix all holes in one offseason. Go with the intent to get 3-4 core guys in the draft and FA this year (QB, OG, DE, and whatever else).....and then next offseason find the RB, OT, CB, and DT in the draft or FA and let's roll.
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Unread postby Big Lu » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:50 pm

we can't fix all holes in one offseason


What happened with all the other off seasons of fixing holes?

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