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What Winslow Deal Means?

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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby jb » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:03 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
JB wrote:Stick to the Association. You got mkad game there.

Heiden's back is shit and Rucker is a savege Day Two pick. Mayb as well be a slum dog millionaire contestent.

Kokinis traded away someone's binky.

One Pro Bowl and two healthy seasons in five years in brown and orange. The best offer on the table was a second and a next-year fifth. I love the kid's talent and attitude, but we all knew this day was coming after Evel Knievel Day at the Corporate College and even more so when he hit the inactive list last year and the offense improved. We missed the chance to sell high on DA, I think its a fairly good sign they recognized and sold high here.

And WTF is with Heiden's back? Dude blew out his *CLs, I haven't caught anything about a back injury.


First off, you're a putz for this:

Kokinis traded away someone's binky.


Just stop being ignorant.

Heiden had back surgery in 2008. That is rarely a long term fix in athletes withouit eventual recurrence.

http://fantasyfootball.usatoday.com/content/player_news.asp?sport=nfl&id=2579&line=133951

Jun. 10, 2008 - 2:32 p.m. ET

Browns TE Steve Heiden returned to practice Tuesday after missing six weeks after undergoing back surgery.

He's not ready to fully practice yet, but the backup should be fine for training camp.

Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer


You can look at this trade rationally thusly, without the typical fanbase villification of the departed player that is so Cleveland.

* BQ's offensive style seems to almost dictate his need of a pass ctaching tight end. If you want to make inflammatory statements to be a prick about "binkies", KW was the perfect one for a young QB who must have check downs.

* You don't get better by dumping your best players. Ever. What 2nd round pick in the history of the Browns since MDP (I think) or Webstar was better than what Winslow did here? Denis Northcutt? Ron Brown? Cleveland Crosby? You all think some punt returner is a more important player than a 90 catchy a year TE ? Um. Ok. I'm out.

* No TE has been more prolific receiving since 2006, KW2's first healthy season.

* AFAIK, no Rosenhaus client has ever held out all season. He's just an impediment, like Boras.

* The only thing that makes any sense at all is if his knee is failing definitively and degenerately. But I have a hard time believeing he passes the physical if this is the case.

* MLB is not NFL football, and this trade netting a 2nd and a 5th is not a Bart Colon haul by any means.

Logically, there is no reason this trade makes any sense.

You can say they sucked with him so they can suck without him, and you'd have a point. But somehow. I can't help but think the road to improving is more about KEEPING you talent and chucking your bums. But I'm funny that way.

Yeah, I think this is a sily deal, Yeah, the Browns piss me off and I get emotional esp after some pops. But let's make a deal. I'll stop being a prick waiving the red flag and you do likewise?

I still thing you are illogical here, Doug.

But to answer Peeker's question, clearly this screams "rebuild". I can't wait for the "things were wors than we thought and we'll need 3 seasons spin in 3...2...1.

And I'm in lock step with Tony.
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:51 pm

Apologies for the 'binky' but you're missing the truth in between the fancy catches.

JB wrote:Heiden had back surgery in 2008. That is rarely a long term fix in athletes withouit eventual recurrence.

And yet Heiden was his same old block 'n catch self up until he blew a couple *CLs.

* BQ's offensive style seems to almost dictate his need of a pass ctaching tight end. If you want to make inflammatory statements to be a prick about "binkies", KW was the perfect one for a young QB who must have check downs.

When he's healthy. KW2 in streetclothes nursing yet another knee surgery doesn't help BQ diddly-squat.

* You don't get better by dumping your best players. Ever. What 2nd round pick in the history of the Browns since MDP (I think) or Webstar was better than what Winslow did here? Denis Northcutt? Ron Brown? Cleveland Crosby? You all think some punt returner is a more important player than a 90 catchy a year TE ? Um. Ok. I'm out.

I know Cribbs is a good bet to spearhead special teams all 16 games. Again: What benefit do we git from KW spending half the season in a knee-wrap?

* No TE has been more prolific receiving since 2006, KW2's first healthy season.

Does this also count in 2008?

* The only thing that makes any sense at all is if his knee is failing definitively and degenerately. But I have a hard time believeing he passes the physical if this is the case.

If Tampa Bay is desperate enough for a receiving threat - hello Jerramy Stevens - they'll take that chance and screw any warnings from the physical. See Corey Williams and Leigh Bodden.

I won't touch any of the 'cancer / contract' nonsense. Maybe there were still sour feelings between Winslow and Lerner, but this was a straight-up business move.

Logically, there is no reason this trade makes any sense.

It does if you think its a 50/50 shot that KW ever plays a full season again, let alone make the Pro Bowl, and suddenly Tampa Bay comes running in waving a mid-second round draft pick. You see 2006-7 as what he can be, there are those who see 2006-7 as his peak and 2008 as a harbinger of things to come. There are those in the Browns front office who think along the same lines. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, it is a gamble. There is logic there, though. They're selling high while they can.

I'll worry about rebuilds if/when Edwards and Rogers find the door.
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:24 am

The Winslow deal means Jammies screwed up again. If we are to believe that Mangini was hired because he didn't want to rebuild, then he goes and moves one of his top 3 offensive players, what else is this going to be other than a rebuild? You take the worst offensive team in the league, trade the only player on the field who can move the chains, what do you expect to happen next season?

They passed on the guy with the experience to rebuild the team the right way, only to start to rebuild the team the wrong way. Again. I thought I couldn't be more apathetic. Wrong again.
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby ProgRocker » Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:34 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:The Winslow deal means Jammies screwed up again. If we are to believe that Mangini was hired because he didn't want to rebuild, then he goes and moves one of his top 3 offensive players, what else is this going to be other than a rebuild? You take the worst offensive team in the league, trade the only player on the field who can move the chains, what do you expect to happen next season?


I, for one, expected this "top 3 offensive players" to play about 6-9 games, which has been his norm since being on the Browns. That, by the way, means he's NOT one of the "top 3 offensive players" since to be a top offensive player you have to, y'know, PLAY.

And if you think "the right way to rebuild" involves trading a #2 for a dice roll of a QB with an obscene contract and a soon-to-be-washed-up LB and hiring a flavor-of-this-moment HC who game-planned himself out of a Super Bowl win as Pioli did, be my guest.

They passed on the guy with the experience to rebuild the team the right way, only to start to rebuild the team the wrong way. Again. I thought I couldn't be more apathetic. Wrong again.


Not apathetic enough to put you in the "everything they do will suck even if it's something we all agree should be done" crowd, unfortunately.
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby noles1 » Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:59 pm

I'd like to see the guy coach a season before we crucify him and the decision to go with him.

This is coming from someone who didn't want the current structure but damn. Let's at this give this a shot.
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby Nicastro13 » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:43 pm

noles1 wrote:I'd like to see the guy coach a season before we crucify him and the decision to go with him.

This is coming from someone who didn't want the current structure but damn. Let's at this give this a shot.



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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:47 pm

ProgRocker wrote:
I, for one, expected this "top 3 offensive players" to play about 6-9 games, which has been his norm since being on the Browns. That, by the way, means he's NOT one of the "top 3 offensive players" since to be a top offensive player you have to, y'know, PLAY.

And if you think "the right way to rebuild" involves trading a #2 for a dice roll of a QB with an obscene contract and a soon-to-be-washed-up LB and hiring a flavor-of-this-moment HC who game-planned himself out of a Super Bowl win as Pioli did, be my guest.

Not apathetic enough to put you in the "everything they do will suck even if it's something we all agree should be done" crowd, unfortunately.


That's the point. In 9 games a season he is better than everyone else in 16. If you consider K2 less than a top 3 guy for the Browns, then I have no response, because that line of thinking is insane.

That QB Pioli got is as good, or better, than anything the Browns currently have. It cost Cleveland 2 #1's (one for Brady, and one that they could have gotten for DA last off season), and a 3rd rounder (moving DA as a RFA) and the other pick they gave Dallas to move up to #22 (please correct my numbers). So by my count it's around 4 first day picks for BQ (or DA at this point) and one for Cassel. So Pioli still looks smarter than the Browns' FO in the past 3 seasons. BQ + DA's contract is pretty obscene too, which is what they are currently carrying.

You call Haley a flavor of the month, but it's too soon too tell. Mangini is still a flavor of the month, he hasn't done shit either. Vrabel would start in Cleveland. He may not be good anymore, but he's equal or better than the LBs the Browns currently have.

I don't agree moving K2 should have been done.
Last edited by Erie Warrior on Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby jb » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:59 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:Apologies for the 'binky' but you're missing the truth in between the fancy catches.

JB wrote:Heiden had back surgery in 2008. That is rarely a long term fix in athletes withouit eventual recurrence.

And yet Heiden was his same old block 'n catch self up until he blew a couple *CLs.

* BQ's offensive style seems to almost dictate his need of a pass ctaching tight end. If you want to make inflammatory statements to be a prick about "binkies", KW was the perfect one for a young QB who must have check downs.

When he's healthy. KW2 in streetclothes nursing yet another knee surgery doesn't help BQ diddly-squat.

* You don't get better by dumping your best players. Ever. What 2nd round pick in the history of the Browns since MDP (I think) or Webstar was better than what Winslow did here? Denis Northcutt? Ron Brown? Cleveland Crosby? You all think some punt returner is a more important player than a 90 catchy a year TE ? Um. Ok. I'm out.

I know Cribbs is a good bet to spearhead special teams all 16 games. Again: What benefit do we git from KW spending half the season in a knee-wrap?

* No TE has been more prolific receiving since 2006, KW2's first healthy season.

Does this also count in 2008?

* The only thing that makes any sense at all is if his knee is failing definitively and degenerately. But I have a hard time believeing he passes the physical if this is the case.

If Tampa Bay is desperate enough for a receiving threat - hello Jerramy Stevens - they'll take that chance and screw any warnings from the physical. See Corey Williams and Leigh Bodden.

I won't touch any of the 'cancer / contract' nonsense. Maybe there were still sour feelings between Winslow and Lerner, but this was a straight-up business move.

Logically, there is no reason this trade makes any sense.

It does if you think its a 50/50 shot that KW ever plays a full season again, let alone make the Pro Bowl, and suddenly Tampa Bay comes running in waving a mid-second round draft pick. You see 2006-7 as what he can be, there are those who see 2006-7 as his peak and 2008 as a harbinger of things to come. There are those in the Browns front office who think along the same lines. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, it is a gamble. There is logic there, though. They're selling high while they can.

I'll worry about rebuilds if/when Edwards and Rogers find the door.



Let's agree as long-tmers to stop poking each other with sticks from the camp fire for a minute and agree that this deal will be evaluated by the longevity of KW2 from here as well as what the Browns net with the 2nd rounder. Odds are good the 5th rounder is a throwaway; a special teamer unless you rub off all the cherries on the scratch off lotto ticket.

We'll see.
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby Nicastro13 » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:08 pm

someone should post his stiff arm of Joey Porter, so we reflect back on the good times with K2
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby jb » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:08 pm

noles1 wrote:I'd like to see the guy coach a season before we crucify him and the decision to go with him.

This is coming from someone who didn't want the current structure but damn. Let's at this give this a shot.


He has coached three seasons. He was 23 - 25 and 0 - 1 in the post season. Whooopie fizzz. He went 10 - 6 an dthe 4 - 12 the next season. Sound vaguely familiar? He got shit canned after leading an epic choke of a season. He was a failure. Jammies fell in puppy love w/ him. IMhO if you took a dump next to BB or Tuna in a public stall in LaGuardia that makes you qualified to take the helm in C-town.

For me, he starts with serious doubts until he proves otherwise.

Sorry gents. There's just nothing in the resume to suggest otherwise. Be happy as a pig in shit to be proven wrong and ridiculed forever, though. Y'all can start and I'll just nod & smile.

But like I said, no. No more benefit of the doubt for the Lerner Jr Era. No. Nada. Nyet.

Show me.
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby Triple-S » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:16 pm

JB wrote: He got shit canned after leading an epic choke of a season. .


JB,

He got a lot of help from me and my diminishing skills

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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby jb » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:18 pm

Triple-S wrote:
JB wrote: He got shit canned after leading an epic choke of a season. .


JB,

He got a lot of help from me and my diminishing skills

Yours,
Brett Farve



If he's such a bad assed take no shit disciplinarian, how come he didn't bench the player killing him? He got fired anyway.

And did Brett rush the passer?

Yes, agree favre was a coach killa, but he allowed himself to be killed instead of hiding the gun in the toilet.
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby Triple-S » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:22 pm

JB wrote:If he's such a bad assed take no shit disciplinarian, how come he didn't bench the player killing him? He got fired anyway.

And did Brett rush the passer?

Yes, agree favre was a coach killa, but he allowed himself to be killed instead of hiding the gun in the toilet.


Favre threw eight interceptions and only two touchdown passes, bringing his season total to twenty-two of each

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Farv ... .282008.29

Bet money that the Jets Ownership told him not to. He had no choice in the matter. If he benched him, who does he have...The Jets version of Derek Anderson in Kellen Clemons. Really was a lose-lose situation any way you cut it
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby jb » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:05 pm

Triple-S wrote:
Bet money that the Jets Ownership told him not to. He had no choice in the matter. If he benched him, who does he have...The Jets version of Derek Anderson in Kellen Clemons. Really was a lose-lose situation any way you cut it


RAC got firted becasue he had to play the Legacy and street guy. Was that unfair?

Main point, my friend: There is nothing objective in terms of achievemnts or outcomes that suggest Eric Mangini is a good NFL football coach to offer him doubts benefit with an open mind.

Him suceeding would be a rather pleasant surprise.

Him pulling a Bellichickian trunaround would be beyond miraculous.

Just admit it. :gah:
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby Triple-S » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:37 pm

JB wrote:RAC got fired because he had to play the Legacy and street guy. Was that unfair?

Main point, my friend: There is nothing objective in terms of achievements or outcomes that suggest Eric Mangini is a good NFL football coach to offer him doubts benefit with an open mind.

Him succeeding would be a rather pleasant surprise.

Him pulling a Bellichickian turnaround would be beyond miraculous.

Just admit it. :gah:


I get and understand where you're coming from, but really, we're stuck with him for better or for worse.

This team will be lucky to win 8 games this year man, that's pretty much a fact, no matter how you cut it. No coach would be able to suddenly make us better than Pittsburgh with or without KII on the roster.

I am more curious if he's going to actually instill some discipline into this team and whether or not he gets these guys to play hard 60 minutes.

I'll give the man 1-3 years to see how he manages and handles things before making judgements at this point.
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Re: What Winslow Deal Means?

Unread postby noles1 » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:32 pm

JB wrote:
noles1 wrote:I'd like to see the guy coach a season before we crucify him and the decision to go with him.

This is coming from someone who didn't want the current structure but damn. Let's at this give this a shot.


He has coached three seasons. He was 23 - 25 and 0 - 1 in the post season. Whooopie fizzz. He went 10 - 6 an dthe 4 - 12 the next season. Sound vaguely familiar? He got shit canned after leading an epic choke of a season. He was a failure. Jammies fell in puppy love w/ him. IMhO if you took a dump next to BB or Tuna in a public stall in LaGuardia that makes you qualified to take the helm in C-town.

For me, he starts with serious doubts until he proves otherwise.

Sorry gents. There's just nothing in the resume to suggest otherwise. Be happy as a pig in shit to be proven wrong and ridiculed forever, though. Y'all can start and I'll just nod & smile.

But like I said, no. No more benefit of the doubt for the Lerner Jr Era. No. Nada. Nyet.

Show me.


They go and beat Tennessee then Favre's shoulder goes to shit and they cannot find ways to score or keep from turning it over. I'll give you his past merits might not be the best but there were circumstances in NY that we out of his control IMO. He's got to put up though, no question about it.
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